Resurrection, First Resurrection and New Birth

Zao is life

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How is our mortal body resurrected to life from below? By the Spirit quickening their mortal body with life from our resurrected/quickened spirit that comes from above.
You saying that Jesus did not know what He was talking about when HE said you must be born from above.

You're saying that JESUS said your spirit must be resurrected from below by the Spirit when JESUS said it must be BORN FROM ABOVE by the Spirit.

When are you going to understand the difference between birth and resurrection from the dead?
 
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rwb

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You saying that Jesus did not know what He was talking about when HE said you must be born from above.

You're saying that JESUS said your spirit must be resurrected from below by the Spirit when JESUS said it must be BORN FROM ABOVE by the Spirit.

When are you going to understand the difference between birth and resurrection from the dead?

Jesus knew, but it appears you don't! When will you understand that which is dead must be made alive, or remains dead. The only way to be made alive is to be quickened/resurrected to spiritual life by the Spirit, and if we have been part of the first resurrection in Christ, on the last day our mortal body too will be quickened by the Spirit with our spirit from above, and resurrected to newness of immortal life.
 
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Zao is life

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Why do we need to be born again?

If quickening is not a spiritual resurrection of life from death, how does new birth make us alive spiritually? So you really don't believe spiritual birth is to receive spiritual life from spiritual death? Something was dead and in need of resurrection life i.e. to be quickened.
Adam's spirit was dead long, long before you were born. You were not born with a spirit. You can only be "spiritually resurrected" if your own spirit had been born when you were and had died. Christ is the last Adam and the Son of Man. It is through His righteous act that we are spiritually born of the Spirit and have the privilege of being called "sons of God" and this is also why Jesus is called "the first-born of many brothers". First born and also first to have been bodily resurrected from the dead.

Christ's Spirit is the Holy Spirit. God's Spirit is the Spirit He was born with. We are also born of His Spirit, but our own spirit is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit lives in our spirit. Our spirit lives in our soul. We have become living souls because God breathed life into our souls, like He did with Adam. It's a new spiritual creation in Christ by His Spirit - not the old creation "resurrected from death".
 
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BABerean2

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Nope. You're just throwing out scriptures that don't prove anything you say.

Were you sealed with the Holy Spirit before or after you were born (from above by the Spirit)?

The answer to your question is written in Ephesians 1:13, which I just posted.

.
 
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Zao is life

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Why do we need to be born again?

So you really don't believe spiritual birth is to receive spiritual life from spiritual death? Something was dead and in need of resurrection life i.e. to be quickened.

No. It's false, You cannot be resurrected if you were never born. Our life in Christ is a new creation in Christ, not the old creation "resurrected from death". God breathes life into the souls of those who hear the gospel, believe, repent, and place their faith and trust in Christ. Like He did with Adam.
 
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JulieB67

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John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Being born from "above" is a physical birth. When we die, that spirit goes back to God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."


John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Christ is basically repeating the same message as before in John 3:3 Born of water (womb) and spirit -becoming a believer in Christ.

John 3:13 is also on the same subject. We came from God, he put us in our mother's wombs.

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations


John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven."

This isn't the thread for this but this all goes back to the beginning, how God knew Jeremiah before he even formed him in his mother's womb etc. He told Job he created behemoth when he also created Job. But we know Job was born of woman so there's a deeper study there. But anyway I'm getting way OT of this thread.

But the first ressurection is anyone who has overcome this earth age by believing in Christ before the last trump. That includes anyone who has passed on or who are still alive at his coming. The rest of the dead (spiritually) will have to wait for the 2nd.

Edited to say I do believe all are quickened (made alive at death) But some still have mortal souls. The death of the soul happens at the great white throne of judgement.
 
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sovereigngrace

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mortal body SHALL BE quickened.
mortal body SHALL BE quickened.
mortal body SHALL BE quickened.
mortal body SHALL BE quickened.
mortal body SHALL BE quickened.

= bodily resurrection, Not "spiritual".
= bodily resurrection, Not "spiritual".
= bodily resurrection, Not "spiritual".
= bodily resurrection, Not "spiritual".
= bodily resurrection, Not "spiritual".



If I could make you write it out a hundred times, maybe you'll finally stop adding non-biblical eisegetical doctrine to the scripture. Unfortunately, I can't make you do that.

Because we are both spiritual and physical beings, we need to experience dual resurrection. The first is spiritual, the second physical. Repeated NT passages (Luke 2:34, John 8:12, Romans 4:17, Romans 6:3-6, 2 Corinthians 1:8-10, Ephesians 2:1-6, Ephesians 5:14, Colossians 2:10-14, Colossians 3:1-4, I John 3:14) teach that we have experienced spiritual resurrection from spiritual death through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
 
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claninja

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No the first resurrection is Jesus, the first-fruits of the (bodily) resurrection.

Why did you say no? We appear to agree that Jesus is the first resurrection.

There is only one resurrection - the resurrection of Christ, the Son of Man, the last Adam. Any bodily resurrection to follow is a resurrection in Christ. There is no "2nd resurrection". "3rd resurrection" etc.
A "2nd resurrection" could only be the case if some other human not even born of the Spirit of Christ dies and rises again in his own right. Every bodily resurrection to take place in Christ is part of the first resurrection, no matter when in time it happens.

Right, Jesus is the first resurrection. Are we then in agreement that the 1st resurrection is about Jesus', and by believers partaking in that 1st resurrection through being baptized in his death and raised to spiritual newness (colossians 2:12), we are therefore no longer hurt by the 2nd death (john 11:25-26) and are a kingdom of priests (1 peter 2:9)?

The message of the New Testament is clear and 100% consistent: Those who believe in Christ are spiritually born from above by the Spirit of God, and they will be bodily resurrected from death at the last day, because through their spiritual birth from above, the Spirit of Christ is in them, and they are in Him spiritually, and therefore share with Him in His physical death when He bore our sins in His own body and died; and they therefore also share with Him in His bodily resurrection from the dead. Christ is the first resurrection, and the first-fruits of the resurrection from the dead - and it is and always has been only a bodily resurrection.

I agree. This is my same point. We have to partake in Christ's death and resurrection (which is the first) in order to be "spiritually born from above", which results in us never being hurt by the 2nd death and becoming a kingdom of priests. This guarantees a future bodily resurrection for us.

There are NO verses in the New Testament where the concept of Resurrection, or being raised from death, is NOT talking about a bodily and physical resurrection from physical death, and there are NO verses in the New Testament where the concept of Resurrection, or being raised from death, is is talking about a “spiritual” resurrection. We are not and cannot be spiritually resurrected from death - we are born from above.

There simply is no such thing in the Bible as a “spiritual” resurrection. The idea is a total fallacy which is only taught by some churches (but, thankfully, not all).

The list below shows that Resurrection (Greek: anastasis) always and only relates to physical (bodily) rising again from death.

I have already agreed that the NT nowhere specifically calls spiritually being made a live from being dead in sin a resurrection.

 
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claninja

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So, if Christ is the first resurrection, only someone resurrected spiritually can have part in that resurrection, but anyone resurrected bodily can't? Is that what you all are trying to say?

No, I'm saying Christ is the first resurrection and first born of the dead ( john 11:25, 1 Corinthians 15:25, revelation 1:5).

When we partake or share in Christ's resurrection, through being baptized into his death and raised to newness of life (colossians 2:12, ephesians 2:5), the 2nd death can no longer hurt us (John 11:25-26), and we become a kingdom of priests to God (1 peter 2:9).


I try to interpret the parabolic language of revelation 20 through the lens of the gospels and epistles:

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who1.) SHARES in the first resurrection! 2.) Over such the second death has no power, 3.) but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

1.) Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

2.) John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.

3.) 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
 
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claninja

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This verse speaks of those who take part in the first resurrection. It says they were beheaded for thier witness of Christ and they had not worshiped the beast or its image.

Right, those who partake in Christ's death and resurrection through being baptized into his death and raised to newness of life (colossians 2:12) are often persecuted as evidenced through the gospels, epistles, and history.

No, these are not Jesus who John saw in Revelation 20:4.They are Israelis who during the last three and a half years before Christ comes, preach the gospel in Israel. They literaly follow in Jesus's footsteps doing what he tells them to do in the gospel. I found it ironic that they preach the same amount of time Jesus did and Israel is being occupied by armed forces of gentiles during those 42 months.
Talk about following the Lamb, they literaly walk in his shoes.

John saw those who partake in the 1st resurrection.

If you didn't have to believe everything is about yourself and for your glory, then you might see clearly enough to understand who it's really about here.

Huh? I believe the passage is about Christ and the glory of his resurrection.
 
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DavidPT

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1.) Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.


3.) 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

In Revelation 20:4, the first resurrection is being applied after they have been martyred, since the first resurrection is the reason they are able to live and reign with Christ a thousand years. The passages you submitted above, how would they be applicable to someone after they are already dead, and are living and reigning with Christ in heaven, in a bodiless manner, as in still awaiting their bodily resurrection? Those passages above, what does that look like in heaven when applying it to the souls reigning there with Christ at the time? Especially 3. All of this assuming Amil.

I simply can't wrap my head around as to how those passages above can be applied to someone after death while awaiting a bodily resurrection.

In Revelation 20:4, John is not first seeing anyone still physically alive at the time. He is first seeing them physically dead, then seeing them physically alive again. That's the order of events. When would they have been physically alive? Before and up to/during the 42 month reign of the beast. When would they have physically died? During the 42 month reign of the beast. When is John seeing them in Revelation 20:4? After they all have already been martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast.

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

As of this verse this indicates there will never be another martyr by the beast ever again. This indicates that the following has been entirely fulfilled----their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were(Revelation 6:11)

And when John sees the souls of them in Revelation 20:4, he is seeing them collectively, as in one entire group like he is seeing them in Revelation 15:2 after there can never be martyrs by this same beast ever again. He is not seeing them when there can be yet more martyrs by this same beast. When he is seeing the souls of these in Revelation 20:4, being martyred by the beast is no longer something that can happen ever again to any saint, period. The 42 month reign of the beast is over at this point.

Sorry, but I keep thinking of things to add to my post.
 
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shilohsfoal

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Right, those who partake in Christ's death and resurrection through being baptized into his death and raised to newness of life (colossians 2:12) are often persecuted as evidenced through the gospels, epistles, and history.



John saw those who partake in the 1st resurrection.



Huh? I believe the passage is about Christ and the glory of his resurrection.

No, the passage is about those who were beheaded for thier testimony of Christ and they did not worship the beast or his image and they were resurrected and reign with Christ 1000 years.

It has nothing to do with you or anyone else who wants to claim your resurrected. Youve not been beheaded and you probably never will.
Why would you feel you should even be compared to these people who laid down thier life for Christ? Why do you even attempt to put yourself in that conversation? When you go out and preach the gospel and get your head cut off for it, come back and talk about it then. If you don't, then leave yourself out of thier resurrection.
 
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DavidPT

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When you go out and preach the gospel and get your head cut off for it, come back and talk about it then.


As if someone could actually do that---get their head literally cut off, then come back to talk about it after that. :)
 
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shilohsfoal

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As if someone could actually do that---get their head literally cut off, then come back to talk about it after that. :)

I'm betting that every single one of those who John saw resurrected could talk about how they died after they are resurrected. :)

But the people on this board who claim they've been resurrected can't tell how they died or who killed them.
 
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shilohsfoal

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As if someone could actually do that---get their head literally cut off, then come back to talk about it after that. :)

These are the saints John saw in the first resurrection who reign with Christ.


Daniel 7:21 KJV: I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Daniel 7:22 KJV: Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


They are all Israelis who dont worship the kingdom they live in and won't take the Israeli governments mark.
They are literally descendents of Abraham.
Thier own government causes them to die and thier own people hate them without a cause.
 
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DavidPT

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I'm betting that every single one of those who John saw resurrected could talk about how they died after they are resurrected. :)

But the people on this board who claim they've been resurrected can't tell how they died or who killed them.


What I find interesting, Justin Martyr, a Premil, was apparently literally beheaded, and that he didn't even believe the first resurrection is meaning the same thing Amils take it to mean, nor did he think he would be reigning with Christ a thousand years while he was dead awaiting a bodily resurrection. I wonder how many past martyrs Amil can produce that were also literally beheaded, but that they were Amils not Premils like Justin Martyr? I would like to hear a name or two at least, where a saint, a saint someone has heard of, was literally beheaded in the past, and that this saint was clearly an Amil.
 
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shilohsfoal

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What I find interesting, Justin Martyr, a Premil, was apparently literally beheaded, and that he didn't even believe the first resurrection is meaning the same thing Amils take it to mean, nor did he think he would be reigning with Christ a thousand years while he was dead awaiting a bodily resurrection. I wonder how many past martyrs Amil can produce that were also literally beheaded, but that they were Amils not Premils like Justin Martyr? I would like to hear a name or two at least, where a saint, a saint someone has heard of, was literally beheaded in the past, and that this saint was clearly an Amil.

I won't be reigning with Christ for that 1000 years.
I like the idea who is though and I'm happy they are chosen. It just seems marvelous how this journey turns out for Israel.Or should I say the few who make it through the storm.
 
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DavidPT

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I won't be reigning with Christ for that 1000 years.
I like the idea who is though and I'm happy they are chosen. It just seems marvelous how this journey turns out for Israel.Or should I say the few who make it through the storm.


How do you already know you won't? If you are forced to choose between worshiping the beast or have your head cut off, you're going to choose the former over the latter?
 
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BABerean2

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What I find interesting, Justin Martyr, a Premil, was apparently literally beheaded, and that he didn't even believe the first resurrection is meaning the same thing Amils take it to mean, nor did he think he would be reigning with Christ a thousand years while he was dead awaiting a bodily resurrection. I wonder how many past martyrs Amil can produce that were also literally beheaded, but that they were Amils not Premils like Justin Martyr? I would like to hear a name or two at least, where a saint, a saint someone has heard of, was literally beheaded in the past, and that this saint was clearly an Amil.

Peter was crucified upside down. Does that count?

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.



Paul was beheaded.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; (See Revelation 11:15-18.)


The passages above are written from the Amill perspective.

.

.
 
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Zao is life

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Right, Jesus is the first resurrection. Are we then in agreement that the 1st resurrection is about Jesus', and by believers partaking in that 1st resurrection through being baptized in his death and raised to spiritual newness
Not spiritual newness. We are not raised to spiritual newness.
1. We are born (born) from above by the Spirit of Christ - not "raised from death/raised from below" to "spiritual newness". That part is a false doctrine and the New Testament does not teach it:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11SrklChVRkx3EtsbgLhRCTv9QQnr_sXf/view

2. Because His Spirit is now in us and we in Him, we now share with Christ in His bodily resurrection and we too shall be bodily resurrected. This (bodily) resurrection is the first resurrection.
 
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