What happened to the Christianity that gave us the Holy Roman Empire...

Radagast

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...the Crusades, the Templars, and the Inquisition?

The Inquisition still exists, under a new name.

The Crusades were complex, but were primarily aimed at recovering lands (in Spain and the Middle East) that had been annexed by force of arms. Such recovery, when conducted according to the principles of just war, is still seen positively by Christians, and has taken place in 1914-18 (Europe), 1939-45 (Europe, Asia, and the West Pacific), 1950-53 (Korea), and 1991 (Kuwait).

The Templars were disbanded in 1312, many being burned at the stake on trumped-up charges.

Templars_on_Stake.jpg
 
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Pavel Mosko

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buzuxi02

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This was a Christianity that lasted over 1,000 years.

I would like to know why it was abandoned by a new Christianity which now repudiates it.
Western Europe became splintered into many sects which ushered in the supposed enlightenment era which eventually done away with monarchy for secular democracies.
 
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Albion

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Are you deliberately misunderstanding me?

I'm asking about the Church which created the HRE, the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the Templars.

Where has IT gone? Why do we not see IT around today? Why instead do we see a Christianity desperate to distance itself from those things?

Most people do not think of the Crusades and, especially, the Inquisition as shining moments in Christian history. (To say the least!)

As for the Holy Roman Empire, which was neither holy nor Roman, I'm not sure what endears it to you.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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...the Crusades, the Templars, and the Inquisition?

Where has it gone and why did it go, only to be replaced by a kind that seems ashamed of (and opposed to) this history?

You mean the church that sacked Constantinople?

The Latin soldiery subjected the greatest city in Europe to an indescribable sack. For three days they murdered, raped, looted and destroyed on a scale which even the ancient Vandals and Goths would have found unbelievable. Constantinople had become a veritable museum of ancient and Byzantine art, an emporium of such incredible wealth that the Latins were astounded at the riches they found. Though the Venetians had an appreciation for the art which they discovered (they were themselves semi-Byzantines) and saved much of it, the French and others destroyed indiscriminately, halting to refresh themselves with wine, violation of nuns, and murder of Orthodox clerics. The Crusaders vented their hatred for the Greeks most spectacularly in the desecration of the greatest Church in Christendom. They smashed the silver iconostasis, the icons and the holy books of Hagia Sophia, and seated upon the patriarchal throne a harlot who sang coarse songs as they drank wine from the Church's holy vessels. The estrangement of East and West, which had proceeded over the centuries, culminated in the horrible massacre that accompanied the conquest of Constantinople. The Greeks were convinced that even the Turks, had they taken the city, would not have been as cruel as the Latin Christians. The defeat of Byzantium, already in a state of decline, accelerated political degeneration so that the Byzantines eventually became an easy prey to the Turks. The Fourth Crusade and the crusading movement generally thus resulted, ultimately, in the victory of Islam, a result which was of course the exact opposite of its original intention. - Speros Vryonis in Byzantium and Europe

I think I'll pass.
 
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tgg

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This was a Christianity that lasted over 1,000 years.

I would like to know why it was abandoned by a new Christianity which now repudiates it.

Because that "Christianity" violated two of Jesus' main teachings "Love one another" and "If you love me, you will keep my commandments". Two of the main commandments are "do not commit murder" and "do not steal".

Does this answer your question? When Jesus comes back to Earth, he will say to the likes of the Crusaders, the colonialists, the Inquisition, and the right-wing political proponents: "I never knew you! Go away from me you evil people!!"
 
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Dan1988

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You mean the church that sacked Constantinople?

The Latin soldiery subjected the greatest city in Europe to an indescribable sack. For three days they murdered, raped, looted and destroyed on a scale which even the ancient Vandals and Goths would have found unbelievable. Constantinople had become a veritable museum of ancient and Byzantine art, an emporium of such incredible wealth that the Latins were astounded at the riches they found. Though the Venetians had an appreciation for the art which they discovered (they were themselves semi-Byzantines) and saved much of it, the French and others destroyed indiscriminately, halting to refresh themselves with wine, violation of nuns, and murder of Orthodox clerics. The Crusaders vented their hatred for the Greeks most spectacularly in the desecration of the greatest Church in Christendom. They smashed the silver iconostasis, the icons and the holy books of Hagia Sophia, and seated upon the patriarchal throne a harlot who sang coarse songs as they drank wine from the Church's holy vessels. The estrangement of East and West, which had proceeded over the centuries, culminated in the horrible massacre that accompanied the conquest of Constantinople. The Greeks were convinced that even the Turks, had they taken the city, would not have been as cruel as the Latin Christians. The defeat of Byzantium, already in a state of decline, accelerated political degeneration so that the Byzantines eventually became an easy prey to the Turks. The Fourth Crusade and the crusading movement generally thus resulted, ultimately, in the victory of Islam, a result which was of course the exact opposite of its original intention. - Speros Vryonis in Byzantium and Europe

I think I'll pass.
There are many different and conflicting historical accounts recorded by various groups. It seems as though all the players have recorded a completely different historical account of the events.

I was raised in a Roman Catholic family, where our parish priest told us the Catholic version which is completely different to that of Speros Vryonis.

We also have the Jewish and Muslim accounts, which are very different again so the ordinary person living in the 21'st century is left very confused. Nobody has the time or the will to invest in a deep study into the subject, as it is of little to no benefit for us in the 21'st century.

The "Church" is now divided into 40,000 denominations, each believes that their denomination is the only true one and nobody can convince anyone of anything. So we all need to respect everyone's right to practice their own religion. "Christians" have been killing each other for far too long, so we should leave history in the past and deal with our current challenges.
 
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Sparagmos

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You are being woefully simplistic here.

Where is the Church as was? WHY did it change?
I think that is a scholarly question and if you want to learn about history you’d be better off asking historians than just random Christians on an Internet forum.

But I’ll propose one thing, and that is that people rejected the authoritarianism and political power that the church represented.
 
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Dan1988

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Because that "Christianity" violated two of Jesus' main teachings "Love one another" and "If you love me, you will keep my commandments". Two of the main commandments are "do not commit murder" and "do not steal".

Does this answer your question? When Jesus comes back to Earth, he will say to the likes of the Crusaders, the colonialists, the Inquisition, and the right-wing political proponents: "I never knew you! Go away from me you evil people!!"
We can't apply todays "Christian" standards to medieval times. They didn't have the benefit of easy killing methods and hatred we have today.
"Christians" have cleaned up and sanitised the murder of our children, brothers, sisters and parents to the point where it is now celebrated in the Church as a noble act of love.
At least the crusaders had to see the blood and guts of their murders, but we now murder millions and our hands don't get a drop of blood on them.
Yes, I'm including you in this mass murdering generation. Don't think that you'll escape the coming judgement, we all have blood on our hands especially the left winged BLM people who murder 1000 black babies everyday in the US alone.
 
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buzuxi02

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You mean the church that sacked Constantinople?

The Latin soldiery subjected the greatest city in Europe to an indescribable sack. For three days they murdered, raped, looted and destroyed on a scale which even the ancient Vandals and Goths would have found unbelievable. Constantinople had become a veritable museum of ancient and Byzantine art, an emporium of such incredible wealth that the Latins were astounded at the riches they found. Though the Venetians had an appreciation for the art which they discovered (they were themselves semi-Byzantines) and saved much of it, the French and others destroyed indiscriminately, halting to refresh themselves with wine, violation of nuns, and murder of Orthodox clerics. The Crusaders vented their hatred for the Greeks most spectacularly in the desecration of the greatest Church in Christendom. They smashed the silver iconostasis, the icons and the holy books of Hagia Sophia, and seated upon the patriarchal throne a harlot who sang coarse songs as they drank wine from the Church's holy vessels. The estrangement of East and West, which had proceeded over the centuries, culminated in the horrible massacre that accompanied the conquest of Constantinople. The Greeks were convinced that even the Turks, had they taken the city, would not have been as cruel as the Latin Christians. The defeat of Byzantium, already in a state of decline, accelerated political degeneration so that the Byzantines eventually became an easy prey to the Turks. The Fourth Crusade and the crusading movement generally thus resulted, ultimately, in the victory of Islam, a result which was of course the exact opposite of its original intention. - Speros Vryonis in Byzantium and Europe

I think I'll pass.
I think he means how do you go from that to the effeminate religion it has become today.
 
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Inkfingers

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Christianity had nothing to do with those things, they were all done by wicked pagan Romans posing as "Christians"
Christians never recognised the "HRE" as anything more than wicked pagans and we still don't to this very day.
So, your question is misguided and invalid to begin with.

That is deeply insulting. Who are you to say large number of Christians were "pagan Romans"?
 
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Inkfingers

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Because that "Christianity" violated two of Jesus' main teachings "Love one another" and "If you love me, you will keep my commandments". Two of the main commandments are "do not commit murder" and "do not steal".

Does this answer your question? When Jesus comes back to Earth, he will say to the likes of the Crusaders, the colonialists, the Inquisition, and the right-wing political proponents: "I never knew you! Go away from me you evil people!!"

You are throwing away a heck of a lot of Church history there. Loving one another was about how Christians treat each other, not about how they treat unbelievers.
 
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Inkfingers

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But I’ll propose one thing, and that is that people rejected the authoritarianism and political power that the church represented.

So was that Church wrong and this one right?

Or, was that Church right and this one wrong?

It wasn't a flash in the pan after all. We are speaking of 1,000 years of Christian history here.
 
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Albion

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You are throwing away a heck of a lot of Church history there.
Not sure that that is correct to say. Not being especially proud of certain episodes in church history doesn't amount to "throwing it away." It did happen, of course, like it or not.

Loving one another was about how Christians treat each other, not about how they treat unbelievers.
I disagree.

Romans 12:16

Matthew 7:12
 
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archer75

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So was that Church wrong and this one right?

Or, was that Church right and this one wrong?

It wasn't a flash in the pan after all. We are speaking of 1,000 years of Christian history here.
Are you joking?

1000 years? from when to when?
 
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Dan1988

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That is deeply insulting. Who are you to say large number of Christians were "pagan Romans"?
The Romans had lots of pagan gods and idols, so they just added Christianity and mixed it into their pagan religion.
Why do you think the "Roman Christians" murdered ten's of millions of Christians. "Christian" means Christ like and a follower of Christ, so do you think that jesus would order the murder of tens of millions of His Saints.
I personally don't believe that Jesus was a murderer, but I guess we're all free to believe what ever we want to.
 
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lsume

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...the Crusades, the Templars, and the Inquisition?

Where has it gone and why did it go, only to be replaced by a kind that seems ashamed of (and opposed to) this history?
I watched a preacher at around 6:00 am last Sunday. As I recall (please don’t hold me to the precise numbers);from ages 75 and above 81% believed that Christ was 100% responsible for their salvation. From 65-75 only 35% believed The Truth. By the age of around 29 the percentage was 4%. I’m fairly certain about the numbers but please refer to the aforementioned caveat.
 
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Redwingfan9

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...the Crusades, the Templars, and the Inquisition?

Where has it gone and why did it go, only to be replaced by a kind that seems ashamed of (and opposed to) this history?
Those events gave rise to the reformation, in large part due to the manipulative way in which funds were raised and in part because the Crusades ended in corruption.

The Crusades started out as holy and just. The First and Third were successful at protecting Christians who has lived in the middle east for centuries. It established a Christian Kingdom that existed for well over a century. However the 4th and 5th Crusades were not as successful and resulted in the plunder of Constantinople which ultimately set them up to be conquered by the Muslims.

I don't have any great objections to the concept of the Crusades. As Christians we don't win converts by the sword but we can protect ourselves and our people with it. The Crusades are a good example of this. Unfortunately all of the wicked doctrines of the papacy became clear during the Crusades and by 1500 the abuse of papal indulgences was clear and gave rise God saving half of Europe via the reformation.
 
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Redwingfan9

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Not all Christians are European, much less German. The Christianity that gave some people the Holy Roman Empire was a Christianity tied to power, ruled by force, which is really no kind of Christianity at all. That such a "Christianity" should come to an end can only be seen as a good thing.
Voltaire once quipped that the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, Roman or an empire. It also wasn't exclusively German as it encompassed parts of what is now Italy, parts of what we now think of as eastern Europe and parts of the low countries.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Sorry, no, I meant the HRE of Charlemagne, not the later (post-reformation) form.

There was no "HRE of Charlemagne", Charlemagne was the king of the Franks and crowned the emperor of the Romans., There was not, however, a Holy Roman Empire until Otto I. The HRE is considered to have begun under Otto's reign, about 962 AD.

Why do most Christians take issue with the violent and often deeply unChristian acts of the past? Well, probably because we can see just how deeply in opposition those things were to the teachings of Jesus Christ, His Apostles, and to the ethical and moral teachings of the ancient and holy Church.

Perhaps you aren't aware of just how ugly and brutal the crusaders were, even contemporary Western Christian sources report of the brutality and barbarity of the crusaders, including acts of cannibalism by the crusaders. Again, let me say it again, these reports come not from the crusaders' enemies, but from among European Christians first hands reports. The barbarity of the crusades was not merely shocking to modern sensibilities, it was shocking and abhorrent to medieval sensibilities as well.

Personally I don't believe in the indiscriminate murder of men, women, and children.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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