Poll on salvation. Eternal security (osas) vs. works and grace are both required.

Which view of salvation is biblically correct.


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FreeGrace2

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A sinner is defined as someone who’s separated from Christ;
ie unreconciled to God.
Please quote the verse that SAYS what you claim.

All humans are sinners. I know you ignored all the Romans 3 verses that plainly state that everyone is a sinner. But you shouldn't.
 
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Charis55

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I can't say what I will believe in ten or twenty years from now.
Were I to die today, it would be with a clear conscience.

this did not really address my statement. What I can tell you regarding my position though to what you have said is that nothing can separate me from God and if I am faithless He is faithful. 10-20 years from now I will be just as secure as I am today.

A second nature denies the truth of 2 Cor 5:17 and Jesus' parable about new wine stored in new bottles..."or both will perish".
If the flesh was crucified, (and it is in the truly repentant), how can it "work against the new man"?

I have explained the meaning of the wineskins one is faith and righteousness the other justification by works. The old justification by works can not have the new faith equals righteousness poured into it. Paul explains how we have two nature’s in Romans 6-8. The flesh is not saved and never will be we contend with it and it is opposed to the new. Yes we are crucified with Christ. Now sanctification by His grace moves us from glory to glory. We do not practice sin but still have the ability to sin as the process continues.


It is obvious by their continued return to sin.
That refutes their repentance from sin.
We can't forge a relationship with God that is based on a lie.

no one has said they continuously return to sin and that there is no victory in a OSAS life this is your false assumption. You deny the fact that you live in a fallen world and in a fallen “body“. If your body wasn’t fallen you would never get sick, be tired ect.... stop acting as if you have a glorified body. Your flesh is not saved and as Paul stated we have two nature’s which even he struggled with.


Our "good behavior" manifests we have turned from sin and unto God.
It shows we "follow" the good Shepherd.
It shows we believe all that God has said.

no it shows that you have been made righteous by the blood of Christ. Everything else is your assumption that your self effort of works can bring about righteousness, what you do. When you understand the grace of God then that revelation will cause sin to leave. Victory comes to those who know it is nothing of themselves but of God. Of good behavior came from turning from sin and following God why did He not keep the old system of works in keeping laws equals righteousness. Obviously God saw fit to leave this old system.


Folks who still serve sin serve another lord than Jesus.
He said no man can serve two masters, and in fact will hate the one and love the other.
Servants of sin hate God.

just because someone fails in their flesh does not make them a servant of sin. A servant of sin would be someone continuously sinning without any care that they are. You are not sinless and perfect before God as you have stated earlier. It’s a ridiculous statement and you keep repeating it.


As you said, we keep God's laws by the blood of the Lamb being on us".
Those who do not keep God's laws (love God above all else and love your neighbor as yourself) don't have the blood of the Lamb on them.
They never were crucified with Christ, with the affections and lusts.

I will just repost my statement to your response below.

Ok but how are you righteous. You have said repeatedly that your own obedience is what God judges you on. If it is by works it is no longer by grace. I’m not talking about dietary laws here I am talking about mosaic laws. You are unable to by your own strength keep these laws no man has ever besides Jesus. If you plan on offering God your own righteous efforts they will fall to the ground. We keep Gods laws by the blood of the Lamb being on us this is what God looks at this is what makes us righteous. Once grace is established then by the spirit we see the fruit of God in our lives. Continuing that thought the fact that there is now no condemnation can this be made a reality but self efforts to keep the law will only bring about condemnation because you will fail, well not you but everyone else.


As you already know what causes "victory over sin" why would one still sin?
You are giving the us "cure" but still suffering from the "disease".

I am giving you the cure. Christ alone can make us eternally secure and righteous, through that fact we are sanctified in the fact that our flesh has been crucified. The ability to posses the victory comes by grace in who we are in Him.

Again, the cure and still subject to the disease?
BTW, Peter wrote..."For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" (1 Peter 4:17)
There is a judgement coming for all men.

we already covered this but I will add that judgment does not come for those who are saved by faith and made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. Jesus bore my judgment on the cross which has freed me to serve Him in the spirit.

is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
Those still carnal are not Christ's.
BTW, Paul was narrating his past while still in the flesh in Rom 7.
The proof?
Rom 7:23..."But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
It is already dealt with in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
The law of sin in his members has been eclipsed by the law of the Spirit of Christ.
And Rom 7:24..."O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
It was already confronted in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

The law of sin is gone, and the old body you keep crediting for ongoing sin is gone too.

Paul was talking in the present tense. Yes the flesh is crucified with Christ, He has condemned the flesh but our flesh is not saved there is a process of sanctification. This notion that you throw out that once you are baptized you never sin again is not biblical.

Yet they somehow thought they had inherited eternal life.
Maybe they blamed an undead "body of sin" for their iniquity?

or they were never made righteous by faith. I “””””””NEVER””””””” knew you. Also “”””””in that day”””””” what day is that obviously they are at judgment. So they call Him Lord because it is obvious that He is Lord.


Faith without love is hate.
If one doesn't have faith that God will destroy the wicked, they will never love Jesus for what He accomplished on our behalf.

Jesus takes a different stance for He did not come to judge but to save, we are in a dispensation of grace and currently that is the heart of God. God wishes all men would come to Him but you’re telling me that instead of loving God for the fact that He has shown such great love to me that I should love Him because he will one day punish the wicked. I would rather see all men brought into the kingdom by the blood of the lamb.


There are no righteous sinners.
Sin is unrighteousness.

And look what the Lord has done. Why do you think God even sent His Son. He has made the sinner righteous by the finished work on the cross now we grow through grace and sanctification.


If you have two natures, you have poured new wine (Spirit of God) into old bottles (old body of sin).
Both shall perish.

that is not what the wineskins mean I have told you my point on this I won’t repeat it.

That doesn't answer my question.
Why are you still a servant of sin, if you love God so much and have faith He can free us from sin?

He has freed us from sin


My "original repentance" was from sin.
If one "turns from" sin, they don't sin anymore.
That, in tandem with my God ordained baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my past sins made me a washed ex-sinner.
That equates to righteous.

It’s interesting that in the many years I’ve been a spirit filled believer of Christ I’ve only heard 3 people in my life talk like you. Involved with multiple denominations 1,000’s and 1000’s of sermons but just a few of you. Faith, righteousness and then sanctification to being rooted and producing fruit. God does the work not us in our efforts.


I don't know why you can't see that my baptism in water was the washing by the blood of Christ for the remission of my past sins. (1 John 5:8)

I have not said the word baptism to you until this set of posts. I have no problem with baptism whatsoever nor am I attacking you for it. My only point is that baptism can not save you. Only the blood of the lamb can make one righteous and give them victory in their life.


I do, as He provided everything I needed, and still need, to keep manifesting the kingdom of God on earth...to His glory.
By His grace I received the gift of repentance from sin, the gift of baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost, the gift of tongues, and much more.
He didn't need to do anything, but in His kindness not only sacrificed His Son for my propitiation, but all I require to remain in His light.

great statement except one thing you are not able to remain in His light on your own self effort. If we are in the light as He is in the light Jesus then purifies us from all sin. If one is in the light as He is in the light why would we have to be washed? We are in the light already and we are being washed. The very next statement in scripture is if we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Which sounds a lot like what you are continuously doing.

You are saying you have fellowship with God even though you walk in darkness. (1 John 1:6)
BUT, if you turn from sin and start walking in the light-God, you too can begin to walk "unbroken".
Consider the warnings I bring as further grace.

I do not walk in darkness but in the light for I have been made righteous by the blood of the lamb.

There is nothing like the favor of God.
I will do anything for it.

Gods favor comes from what Jesus has done for you. He fulfilled the law and all the blessings that come along with that fulfillment are afforded to those who have put their trust and faith in Him. You can not earn His favor.


Yes, except I don't have the gift of healing.

Your discourse reminds me of the Pharisee's arguments against Jesus.
They trusted in the OT Law of Moses for their salvation, but without the love for God or their neighbors Jesus insisted on.
You believe in a doctrine of faith and grace, without the love that would show that belief or grace.
Don't remain in such dire straits.

For further discussion on perfect obedience to God, we must converse privately.
The moderators are not big fans of the subject.

what? Just throwing things out there now hoping they will stick.

Servant of sin would mean one whom is a slave to sin and can not break free this is terminology you keep using I have never indicated this but have stated Christians deal with two separate nature’s. Paul was talking in the present tense we have two nature’s or why would he address both nature’s as conflicting with each other. If a unsaved man is unsaved what does he care about the new nature. If one who has a new nature and is no longer contending with the unsaved flesh then what does he care about the old nature. Paul spoke of both conflicting with each other, what would be the point of this if one is no longer relevant to the other. You are not sinless upon conversion in your flesh but in your inner man by Christ’s righteousness that is where you are sinless. How do you explain sanctification, what is it’s role? Sanctification is the process we are under to remove sin from our flesh as the new nature rules. Sanctification is the process of that righteousness in you overcoming the flesh daily. While this process is happening we have the assurance from God that we are eternally secure which in turn will not allow condemnation to come over us. The fact that we are eternally secure and made righteous is what gives us the power or ability to overcome sin. The fulfillment of the law by Christ has in turn made one who is in faith righteous, and because of this now the flesh which is carnal and weak does not have to do the impossible which is keep the spiritual law, for Christ has done that for us. Once we are freed from the law we can now keep it by the spirit so Christ has made us keepers of the law not by our own actions but by His one action on the cross. I am providing the cure in this statement above you are desiring to perfect yourself by your own righteousness.


We have been doing nothing but reciting our own points back and forth to each other. You know what I believe and I know what you believe so perhaps we can have a discussion on another topic another time for this one has more than run it’s course. God bless.
 
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Phil W

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this did not really address my statement. What I can tell you regarding my position though to what you have said is that nothing can separate me from God and if I am faithless He is faithful. 10-20 years from now I will be just as secure as I am today.
As you said "...IF I am faithful..."
Not everyone remains faithful.

I have explained the meaning of the wineskins one is faith and righteousness the other justification by works. The old justification by works can not have the new faith equals righteousness poured into it. Paul explains how we have two nature’s in Romans 6-8. The flesh is not saved and never will be we contend with it and it is opposed to the new. Yes we are crucified with Christ. Now sanctification by His grace moves us from glory to glory. We do not practice sin but still have the ability to sin as the process continues.
I remember no discussion concerning wine skins...so...I have no comment.
As for two natures?
It doesn't happen.
Old things are passed away...Behold ALL things are made new. (2 Cor 5:17)

no one has said they continuously return to sin and that there is no victory in a OSAS life this is your false assumption. You deny the fact that you live in a fallen world and in a fallen “body“. If your body wasn’t fallen you would never get sick, be tired ect.... stop acting as if you have a glorified body. Your flesh is not saved and as Paul stated we have two nature’s which even he struggled with.
You deny the facts you try to assert.

no it shows that you have been made righteous by the blood of Christ. Everything else is your assumption that your self effort of works can bring about righteousness, what you do. When you understand the grace of God then that revelation will cause sin to leave. Victory comes to those who know it is nothing of themselves but of God. Of good behavior came from turning from sin and following God why did He not keep the old system of works in keeping laws equals righteousness. Obviously God saw fit to leave this old system.
In the OT, men couldn't be baptized into Christ's death, so couldn't be reborn.
With the new man, is a new divine nature to replace the old Adamic nature.

just because someone fails in their flesh does not make them a servant of sin. A servant of sin would be someone continuously sinning without any care that they are. You are not sinless and perfect before God as you have stated earlier. It’s a ridiculous statement and you keep repeating it.
It sure does, if Jesus is right. (John 8:34)..."Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."

He has freed us from sin
Agreed.

I have not said the word baptism to you until this set of posts. I have no problem with baptism whatsoever nor am I attacking you for it. My only point is that baptism can not save you. Only the blood of the lamb can make one righteous and give them victory in their life.
Baptism is when and where the atoning, sanctifying blood of Christ is applied to our bodies.
It is when and where the old man is killed and the new creature is raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.

great statement except one thing you are not able to remain in His light on your own self effort. If we are in the light as He is in the light Jesus then purifies us from all sin. If one is in the light as He is in the light why would we have to be washed? We are in the light already and we are being washed. The very next statement in scripture is if we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Which sounds a lot like what you are continuously doing.
Those in the light don't commit sin, as there is no sin in God-the light.
If your assertion that I have no power to remain in the light is true, who pays for the sins committed by the faithless folks walking in darkness?
If only God can keep me in the light, isn't He to blame for those who leave the light?

I do not walk in darkness but in the light for I have been made righteous by the blood of the lamb.
That is great, and I praise God for making you free from sin.

Servant of sin would mean one whom is a slave to sin and can not break free. This is terminology you keep using. I have never indicated this but have stated Christians deal with two separate nature’s.
Your built in excuse for your service...slavery to sin is. your double nature doctrine.
You will never be free of sin with two natures.

We have been doing nothing but reciting our own points back and forth to each other. You know what I believe and I know what you believe so perhaps we can have a discussion on another topic another time for this one has more than run it’s course. God bless.
OK.
 
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JLB777

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said:
"Where do you get your "material"?"
I don't need it again. I was asking about where you get your "material".


My post contains the scripture, chapter and verse, which is where I got my “material”.


For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26"



I'm a sinner, but I'm IN Christ, not separated from Him, through faith in Him.


If you are a sinner then by definition you are separated from Christ.


For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26"

Separate from sinners is what the scripture says, if you choose to ignore the scriptures and make up your own set of rules, then that is between you and the Lord.


Here is how we are instructed to remain “in Christ”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Sin by definition is disobeying Him, and what He commands.


Love is obeying His commandments.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


again



“If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15


Sin and disobedience is the way of hate.

Christians who hate no longer have eternal life.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Where did you get the idea that a sinner, refers to someone “in Christ”?


It certainly does not come from the Bible.



JLB
 
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JLB777

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Please quote the verse that SAYS what you claim.

All humans are sinners. I know you ignored all the Romans 3 verses that plainly state that everyone is a sinner. But you shouldn't.


For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26"


Sinner — Strongs G268 - hamartōlos


  1. devoted to sin, a sinner
    1. not free from sin

    2. pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked
      1. all wicked men

      2. specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes
        1. tax collectors, heathen


So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 13:49-50




JLB
 
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BBAS 64

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There are limits to any analogy. For instance, a real shepherd also encourages a ram to impregnate as many ewes in the flock as possible. Our shepherd doesn't do that.

Nor does he hold us against our will with "irresistable grace." So any of the scriptures that speak of our security must be informed by the other Scriptures that warn us to be faithful and endure to the end. In the end I must conclude that it is impossible to accidentally "lose" my salvation, but I could still resist the Holy Spirit and walk away from him.

Blessings,

Greg

Good Day, Greg

But, I did not stretch the analogy to the impregnation of the lambs by a ram. I addressed the context of the text...

I will stick with a good Shepard does not loose sheep for if he did he would be in no way considered " a Good Shepard" but rather a really bad one. I do not see the scripture describing Jesus in that way, but clearly you do.


In Him,

Bill
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
"Where do you get your "material"?"
I don't need it again. I was asking about where you get your "material".
My post contains the scripture, chapter and verse, which is where I got my “material”.
Actually, nothing you post is supported by the verses you quote. Which has all been very carefully explained to you.

For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26"
Yes, Jesus is separate from sinners in that He is sinless, while ALL human beings are sinners. That is the meaning. Quite clear.

If you are a sinner then by definition you are separated from Christ.
If you think quoting Heb 7:26 supports this claim, you are sadly mistaken.

There is NO verse that makes such a "definition". What you have posted is merely your own opinion.

And, it begs a question: are you a sinner, or have you ceased from sin altogether?

Separate from sinners is what the scripture says
Yes, we can all read what Hebd 7:26 says. The key, though, is to UNDERSTAND what it MEANS.

if you choose to ignore the scriptures and make up your own set of rules, then that is between you and the Lord.
That is surely what you have been doing.

Christians who hate no longer have eternal life.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15
If eternal life were removed by hate for another, then John WOULD NOT HAVE needed to add the word "abiding" in the sentence. It would have been very clear without the "abiding".

John added the word to clarify. John was present and finally recorded what Jesus said in John 15:1-7. The issue in "abiding" or "remaining" in Him is bearing fruit. Not having or maintaining salvation.

When a believer hates another believer, they are NOT "abiding" or living in the sphere of the life they possess.

Remember, all believers are given the gift of eternal life. And Jesus was very clear that all recipients of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. He couldn't have said it any more clear than that.

So please don't try to mess up what Jesus said and pervert His message with your own opinions and unbiblical ideas.

Where did you get the idea that a sinner, refers to someone “in Christ”?
All humans are sinners. Paul said so in Romans 3. Have you ever read that chapter?

It certainly does not come from the Bible.
Read Romans 3 very carefully. You'll see.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
"Please quote the verse that SAYS what you claim.

All humans are sinners. I know you ignored all the Romans 3 verses that plainly state that everyone is a sinner. But you shouldn't."
For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26"
Failed, AGAIN. The verse does NOT say the definition of a sinner is separate from Christ.

Sinner — Strongs G268 - hamartōlos
  1. devoted to sin, a sinner
    1. not free from sin
    2. pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked
      1. all wicked men
      2. specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes
        1. tax collectors, heathen
So, again, are you now sinless, no longer a sinner?

So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 13:49-50
Of course God will separate believers from unbelievers, the saved from the unsaved.

That's pretty basic.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Well first off He was talking to His disciples (ones who learn) who He said were His friends. He had not gone to the cross yet therefore sonship through His righteous blood was not available yet. Most of the disciples (ones who learn) were having trouble with your are the Christ the Son of the living God. He is talking about bearing fruit so this has nothing to do with OSAS but besides that a lesser can not over take a greater and eternal security is found throughout the scriptures. When you fall from grace you fall back to that lower position “the law” and “works” for justification. Verse 2 the word “He takes away” is translated in the Greek as lift up or raise. When grape vines are on the ground they do not bear fruit but when raised they are able to bear fruit once again this is something the disciples would have understood.

Life is busy and time is precious so forgive me if I don’t respond to you in a timely manner.

Bless you friend I completely understand being very busy at times myself. I don’t know if you are aware of this but the term “lifts up or taketh away” comes from the Greek word airo (G142) when used in reference to something that is attached to anything means to take off or remove. Jesus gave a similar message in Luke 13.

“And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?' And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB‬‬


Do you not believe that verse 6 refers to a loss of salvation?


“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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JLB777

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I said:
"Please quote the verse that SAYS what you claim.

All humans are sinners. I know you ignored all the Romans 3 verses that plainly state that everyone is a sinner. But you shouldn't."

Failed, AGAIN. The verse does NOT say the definition of a sinner is separate from Christ.


So, again, are you now sinless, no longer a sinner?


Of course God will separate believers from unbelievers, the saved from the unsaved.

That's pretty basic.


I said:
"Where do you get your "material"?"
I don't need it again. I was asking about where you get your "material".

Actually, nothing you post is supported by the verses you quote. Which has all been very carefully explained to you.


Yes, Jesus is separate from sinners in that He is sinless, while ALL human beings are sinners. That is the meaning. Quite clear.


If you think quoting Heb 7:26 supports this claim, you are sadly mistaken.

There is NO verse that makes such a "definition". What you have posted is merely your own opinion.

And, it begs a question: are you a sinner, or have you ceased from sin altogether?


Yes, we can all read what Hebd 7:26 says. The key, though, is to UNDERSTAND what it MEANS.


That is surely what you have been doing.


If eternal life were removed by hate for another, then John WOULD NOT HAVE needed to add the word "abiding" in the sentence. It would have been very clear without the "abiding".

John added the word to clarify. John was present and finally recorded what Jesus said in John 15:1-7. The issue in "abiding" or "remaining" in Him is bearing fruit. Not having or maintaining salvation.

When a believer hates another believer, they are NOT "abiding" or living in the sphere of the life they possess.

Remember, all believers are given the gift of eternal life. And Jesus was very clear that all recipients of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. He couldn't have said it any more clear than that.

So please don't try to mess up what Jesus said and pervert His message with your own opinions and unbiblical ideas.


All humans are sinners. Paul said so in Romans 3. Have you ever read that chapter?


Read Romans 3 very carefully. You'll see.


Again here is the scripture that teaches us, that Jesus is separate from sinners.

I also took the time to post what the word “sinner” means, as well as a verse that uses the word wicked.




For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26"


Sinner — Strongs G268 - hamartōlos


  1. devoted to sin, a sinner
    1. not free from sin

    2. pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked
      1. all wicked men

      2. specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes
        1. tax collectors, heathen


So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 13:49-50




JLB
 
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FreeGrace2

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Again here is the scripture that teaches us, that Jesus is separate from sinners.
I never said He wasn't. And I explained WHY He is "separate from sinners". He was NOT a sinner, ever. Everyone else IS a sinner. That's the separation.

I also took the time to post what the word “sinner” means, as well as a verse that uses the word wicked.
No, you only gave your own opinion of what you think the word "sinner" means. And what's the point of finding verses that have specific words? How does that help you?

Please answer my question. Are you now sinless? Or do you still sin? Given your "definition", this question is quite relevant to the discussion.

Thanks.
 
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A_Thinker

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I’m curious what this community believes regarding salvation. Interested to see peoples interpretation of why they believe what they believe from the scriptures.
I lean toward salvation begin irrevocable.

If salvation depends at all upon fallible men or women, ... then all are lost ...
 
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Phil W

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I lean toward salvation begin irrevocable.

If salvation depends at all upon fallible men or women, ... then all are lost ...
Hence the need for rebirth from God's seed now instead of Adam's seed.
Those reborn of God cannot bear evil fruit.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Hence the need for rebirth from God's seed now instead of Adam's seed.
Those reborn of God cannot bear evil fruit.
Of course the believer can. That's why John the Beloved Apostle wrote this:

1 John 2:1 - My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

And don't forget that the Apostle Paul wrote Romans 7 concerning his struggle with his own sinful nature in the PRESENT TENSE.

Not to mention what Paul told Timothy in 1 Tim 1:15 - Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

Oh, and just to remind you of what the Beloved Apostle John said about anyone who claims to be without sin: they are self deceived and have no truth in them.

1 John 1:8 - If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

By including even himself (by the "we"), he wasn't leaving ANYBODY out.

Therefore, NO ONE can make that claim. But those who do are self deceived and have no truth in them.
 
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JLB777

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I never said He wasn't. And I explained WHY He is "separate from sinners". He was NOT a sinner, ever. Everyone else IS a sinner. That's the separation.


No, you only gave your own opinion of what you think the word "sinner" means. And what's the point of finding verses that have specific words? How does that help you?

Please answer my question. Are you now sinless? Or do you still sin? Given your "definition", this question is quite relevant to the discussion.

Thanks.


Sorry sir, but your claims about my opinion are not what is being discussed but what the scripture says.


Jesus is separate from sinners, which is the opposite from a person who is “in Christ”.


We who are in Christ are called saints, not sinners.


And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Christ Our Cornerstone
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, Ephesians 2:17-19




The word sinner, defines a person who is separate from Christ.


For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26


All your attempts to explain away the truth and claim that your explanation somehow invalidates what the scripture so plainly says.


Jesus admonishes us to remain “in Him“.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how this same Apostle John instructs us to remain “in Christ”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:25



JLB
 
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Phil W

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Of course the believer can. That's why John the Beloved Apostle wrote this:

1 John 2:1 - My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
The "any man" in 1 John 2:1 are the unsaved, unconverted who yearn for freedom.
As we once depended on the Advocate, so can they.

I like the third and fourth verses of 1 John 2 too...
"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
Sinners don't know the Advocate.
Sinners professing Christ are liars.
 
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JLB777

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I never said He wasn't. And I explained WHY He is "separate from sinners". He was NOT a sinner, ever. Everyone else IS a sinner. That's the separation.


No, you only gave your own opinion of what you think the word "sinner" means. And what's the point of finding verses that have specific words? How does that help you?

Please answer my question. Are you now sinless? Or do you still sin? Given your "definition", this question is quite relevant to the discussion.

Thanks.


My son, if sinners entice you,
Do not consent.
If they say, “Come with us,
Let us lie in wait to shed blood;
Let us lurk secretly for the innocent without cause;
Let us swallow them alive like Sheol,
And whole, like those who go down to the Pit;
Proverbs 1:10-12
 
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FreeGrace2

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Sorry sir, but your claims about my opinion are not what is being discussed but what the scripture says.
That is exactly right; what Scripture says, NOT what you keep expressing, which is just your own opinion. Which is not Scriptural.

Jesus is separate from sinners, which is the opposite from a person who is “in Christ”.
Yes, we all recognize how you misread Scripture. He is separate from sinners, in that He is sinless. Sinners sin.

Are you going to answer my question about whether you are sinless or not?

We who are in Christ are called saints, not sinners.
Please answer the question. Do you claim to be without sin?

The word sinner, defines a person who is separate from Christ.
Where is the verse that actually "defines" a sinner? I'll show you.

Romans 3-
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

These verses define the human race as sinners. Clearly.

For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26
That's correct; Jesus was sinless. Humans are sinful. He is separate from them.

All your attempts to explain away the truth and claim that your explanation somehow invalidates what the scripture so plainly says.
Actually, my explanation invalidates your opinion of what the Scripture so plainly says.

Jesus admonishes us to remain “in Him“.
Yes, for fruit bearing. John 15-
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Here is how this same Apostle John instructs us to remain “in Christ”.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:25
That is correct. "Abiding in Him" is about fellowship and bearing fruit.

Now, again, do you claim to be sinless?
 
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FreeGrace2

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The "any man" in 1 John 2:1 are the unsaved, unconverted who yearn for freedom.
As we once depended on the Advocate, so can they.
Let's examine the verse once again:

John 2:1 - My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

The red words both describe John's audience (believers) and directions to them (that they will not sin). That completely refutes your claims that born again people cannot sin. There is nothing in this verse about unsaved people.

I like the third and fourth verses of 1 John 2 too...
"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
Sinners don't know the Advocate.
Sinners professing Christ are liars.
Actually, 1 John 1:8 says that anyone who claims to be sinless is self deceived and the truth is not in them.

And John did mean anyone who makes that claim.
 
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FreeGrace2

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My son, if sinners entice you,
Do not consent.
If they say, “Come with us,
Let us lie in wait to shed blood;
Let us lurk secretly for the innocent without cause;
Let us swallow them alive like Sheol,
And whole, like those who go down to the Pit;
Proverbs 1:10-12
Good advice. Don't be enticed by them.
 
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