Butch5

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My first question would be, what is hell? The word isn't found in either the Hebrew or Greek texts of the Bible. There are three places that have been translated hell. Hades is the grave and is a physical place. Gehenna is a valley outside of Jerusalem, also a physical place. Then there is Tartarus which the Bible only speaks of as having angels cast there. The ancient Greeks held that Tartarus was a subteranian location where the wicked were cast. However, in the Scriptures the word is used just once by Peter who says the angels were cast there. There is nothing in the Scriptures about people going there. The only places that we see people going are Hades and Gehenna, the Lake of Fire.

My second question would be, since you believe that people suffer after death and before the judgement, can you show from Scripture that a dead man isn't dead? The position you've stated requires that those the Bible says are dead, are not dead.
 
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My first question would be, what is hell? The word isn't found in either the Hebrew or Greek texts of the Bible. There are three places that have been translated hell. Hades is the grave and is a physical place. Gehenna is a valley outside of Jerusalem, also a physical place. Then there is Tartarus which the Bible only speaks of as having angels cast there. The ancient Greeks held that Tartarus was a subteranian location where the wicked were cast. However, in the Scriptures the word is used just once by Peter who says the angels were cast there. There is nothing in the Scriptures about people going there. The only places that we see people going are Hades and Gehenna, the Lake of Fire.

My second question would be, since you believe that people suffer after death and before the judgement, can you show from Scripture that a dead man isn't dead? The position you've stated requires that those the Bible says are dead, are not dead.

While the words hades and sheol can refer to different things, etc.; When the translators used the word “hell” for the English, I believe it is in reference to what it is commonly known as the underworld, and more commonly known as the place of torments that the rich man went to. Granted, there are different compartments of hell. Gehenna is the Lake of Fire portion of hell. The place of torments part of hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire portion of hell. Tartarus is another place of hell for those really bad angels.
 
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Butch5

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While the words hades and sheol can refer to different things, etc.; When the translators used the word “hell” for the English, I believe it is in reference to what it is commonly known as. The underworld, and more commonly known as the place of torments that the rich man went to. Granted, there are different compartments of hell. Gehenna is the Lake of Fire portion of hell. The place of torments part of hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire portion of hell. Tartarus is another place of hell for those really bad angels.

But that's not what we find in the Bible. Gehenna is a real literal place. People can go there today and see it. It is literally a valley located outside of Jerusalem. It's a real place on the surface of the earth. Hades is the grave. Everywhere we find the word Hades in the Bible it can be translated, "the grave", so there is no reason to translate it as anything else, unless they have a certain set of beliefs they are trying to support. Tartartus is irrelevant to our discussion because nothing is said of people going there.

My point is that hell is not in the Bible. What's been done is people have taken this English word and applied it wrongly to two places in the Bible. For the sake of clarity the word hell shouldn't be used in discussing this subject as it's not in the original languages. We should use Hades and Gehenna as they are the actual names of the places. Using the word hell causes confusion because when someone says hell, the hearer doesn't know if they are referring to Hades, Gehenna, or Tartartus.

Here is a link to images of Gehenna. As you can see this is a real place.

the valley of the son of hinnom - Google Search
 
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zoidar

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Here is a quick helpful video on Conditional Immortality:

I think the video got some interesting points. I don't spend too much time thinking of this subject, leaving it fully up to God.

Have you read up on the belief of the ante-nicene Fathers on this subject? Would be interesting to know what they believed.
 
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But that's not what we find in the Bible. Gehenna is a real literal place. People can go there today and see it. It is literally a valley located outside of Jerusalem. It's a real place on the surface of the earth. Hades is the grave. Everywhere we find the word Hades in the Bible it can be translated, "the grave", so there is no reason to translate it as anything else, unless they have a certain set of beliefs they are trying to support. Tartartus is irrelevant to our discussion because nothing is said of people going there.
My point is that hell is not in the Bible. What's been done is people have taken this English word and applied it wrongly to two places in the Bible. For the sake of clarity the word hell shouldn't be used in discussing this subject as it's not in the original languages. We should use Hades and Gehenna as they are the actual names of the places. Using the word hell causes confusion because when someone says hell, the hearer doesn't know if they are referring to Hades, Gehenna, or Tartartus.
Here is a link to images of Gehenna. As you can see this is a real place.
Internet nonsense.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, translated hades and gehenna in the LXX and NT.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]
[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught e.g.,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?
τω δε θεω και πατρι ημων η δοξα εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων αμην


 
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But that's not what we find in the Bible. Gehenna is a real literal place. People can go there today and see it. It is literally a valley located outside of Jerusalem. It's a real place on the surface of the earth.

You can see the Ark in Kentucky but it is not the original one. I believe there are two possibilities. They either named the valley that place because of Scripture talking about the underworld, or they referred to the name of that valley as being a reference to the Lake of Fire in the underworld. A person who made some dictionary may not always be right. The context of how that word is used gives us the meaning of that word. For it does not sound like Jesus is referring to a literal valley that is on fire upon the surface of the Earth in Matthew 5:28-30. Is this valley on fire today? Would this valley hold all the wicked being burned?

You said:
Hades is the grave. Everywhere we find the word Hades in the Bible it can be translated, "the grave", so there is no reason to translate it as anything else, unless they have a certain set of beliefs they are trying to support.

The word “hades” (Which is a Greek word I think should have another name in English) does not always refer to word “grave”; Scripture would be incoherent at times if the word hades always meant “the grave.” The word “hades” (hell) is tied to the story of Lazarus and the rich man (of which you right off as a metaphor when the wording does not indicate it as such).

You said:
My point is that hell is not in the Bible. What's been done is people have taken this English word and applied it wrongly to two places in the Bible. For the sake of clarity the word hell shouldn't be used in discussing this subject as it's not in the original languages. We should use Hades and Gehenna as they are the actual names of the places. Using the word hell causes confusion because when someone says hell, the hearer doesn't know if they are referring to Hades, Gehenna, or Tartartus.

The word “hell” is a little less precise, but all the original language words still refer to realm of the dead or the underworld.
 
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Der Alte

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You can see the Ark in Kentucky but it is not the original one. I believe there are two possibilities. They either named the valley that place because of Scripture talking about the underworld, or they referred to the name of that valley as being a reference to the Lake of Fire in the underworld. A person who made some dictionary may not always be right. The context of how that word is used gives us the meaning of that word. For it does not sound like Jesus is referring to a literal valley that is on fire upon the surface of the Earth in Matthew 5:28-30. Is this valley on fire today? Would this valley hold all the wicked being burned?
The word “hades” does not always refer to word “grave”; Scripture would be incoherent at times if the word hades always meant “the grave.” The word “hades” (hell) is tied to the story of Lazarus and the rich man (of which you right off as a metaphor when the wording does not indicate it as such).
The word “hell” is a little less precise, but all the original language words still refer to realm of the dead or the underworld
.
Please see my post #26 directly above your post, where I document from Jewish sources, with links, that there was a belief in Israel before and during the time of Jesus in a place of eternal fiery punishment which they called both "Ge hinnom" and "sheol" translated as "Gehenna" and "hades" in the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
Dismissing hades and gehinnom as mistranslations is a favorite tactic of heterodox religious groups because facts don't support their assumptions/presuppositions.
 
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I think the video got some interesting points. I don't spend too much time thinking of this subject, leaving it fully up to God.

Have you read up on the belief of the ante-nicene Fathers on this subject? Would be interesting to know what they believed.

I am more of a Bible alone kind of guy. History is written by the victors, and or it can be colored to fit somebody's agenda. God's Holy Word is trustworthy while man's words are not always so trustworthy.
 
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Please see my post #26 directly above your post, where I document from Jewish sources, with links, that there was a belief in Israel before and during the time of Jesus in a place of eternal fiery punishment which they called both "Ge hinnom" and "sheol" translated as "Gehenna" and "hades" in the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
Dismissing hades and gehinnom as mistranslations is a favorite tactic of heterodox religious groups because facts don't support their assumptions/presuppositions.

I am not discounting the possibility Gehenna could be referring to the name of the “Valley of the Son of Hinnombut Jesus refers to Gehenna fire in Matthew 5:28-30 suggesting it is more than just an earthly place but an otherworldly one.

I will now check out your post #26.
 
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zoidar

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I am more of a Bible alone kind of guy. History is written by the victors, and or it can be colored to fit somebody's agenda. God's Holy Word is trustworthy while man's words are not always so trustworthy.

Ok! But those who knew and traveled with the apostles, should have a close understanding of scripture, I believe. The apostolic Fathers, they could ask the apostles what was unclear. Of course like you say the Early Church writings are not inspired scripture, but they could point us to a direction.
 
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Internet nonsense.

Well, the Jews ended up crucifying their own Messiah, so I would not exactly consider them to always be experts on what God's Word always. My ultimate authority is the Bible (God's Holy Word) and not history written by men.

You said:
When Jesus taught e.g.,“Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” (Matthew 25:41).
The fire is “everlasting” as long as it accomplishes its intended purpose. When Jesus talks about the unquenchable fire and the worms that do not die in Mark 9:43-44, and Mark 9:48, He was referring to Isaiah 66:22-24. In the picture we are given in Isaiah 66:22-24, we are on the New Earth, and the saints are witnessing the lifeless remains (carcases) of the wicked after several sabbaths and new moons. Carcases or corpses are dead, and they are not living.

In addition, the dictionary has several definitions for the word "ever." Besides the word "ever" meaning eternal, it also defines the word "ever" in this way, as well.

Ever:
(adverb):

To a great extent or degree.​
Dictionary Source:
Ever dictionary definition | ever defined

So words like “everlasting” in relation to “fire” (i.e. punishment) in Matthew 25:41 lets us know that it does not always means forever.

For example: “Everlasting” or “for ever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.​
• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).​
• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).​
• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).​
• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).​
• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).​
• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):​
• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).​
• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superseded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).​
• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.​
• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).​
• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).​
• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.​
Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).​
• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).​
• "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).​
• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).​
• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.​
• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15 where it is contrasted with “for a while.”​

So the word "forever" as used in the Bible is true. It does mean "forever" but it is talking in "forever" under the context of within either a temporary Covenant, or here upon this Earth (which is temporal), or within the Lake of Fire (Which is also a temporary place). In Philemon 1:15: Paul mentioned to Philemon how Onesimus was going to return back to him (his master) forever.

Obviously, Onesimus is not an immortal man still living upon the Earth with his master (Philemon) today. He was returning back to his master forever within the context of their temporary lives upon the Earth.

You said:
these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46

“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:
but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:46).

What does “eternal judgment” mean in Hebrews 6:2? It’s pretty simple; God judges, and the result is everlasting. Few traditionalists (i.e. Eternal Torment proponents), if any, argue that this verse teaches that God is continually judging for eternity, banging his gavel and repeatedly declaring saved or unsaved the same finite number of existent people. But wait a minute; it doesn’t say “the eternal results of judgment.” It says “eternal judgment.” Following the reasoning applied to Matthew 25:46, this verse must teach that God is continually in the act of judging! In other words, the consequences of the punishment are everlasting, and not the act of punishing that is ongoing. In fact, if we compare Scripture with Scripture, we discover exactly what this“everlasting punishment” actually is.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:9. It says, “Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;” (KJV).​

So the wicked will be destroyed. Their everlasting punishment is…. everlasting destruction! Destruction means it is not around anymore. Something that is destroyed is no more. If I tell you I will destroy a piece of paper, I will either shred it, or burn it, etc.; It will be no more from what it used to be. It will cease to function in the manner that it was. It was destroyed. So Matthew 25:46 is referring to an everlasting punishment. This punishment has everlasting consequences and it is everlasting destruction (i.e. something that will be no more). Just as there is an “eternal judgment” mentioned in Scripture. A one time judgment with eternal consequences, and not a court like judgment that will stretch out into eternity for all time. Therefore, there will also be an “everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46), or a punishment that has everlasting consequences by an “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9). It will be a destruction or ruin, or end of the wicked that has everlasting consequences.

Now, some try to say that comparing “everlasting life with everlasting punishment” is proof of Eternal Torment.

However, if we were to look more closely at Matthew 25:46:

Everlasting is the parallel (which speaks of the eternal consequences).

Both life and death (destruction, i.e. the punishment) have eternal consequences or effects.

But life and death (punishment) is the contrast.

So the verse is one part parallel and one part contrast.

As I already pointed out, the "everlasting punishment" is said to be "everlasting destruction" in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, which is death.

So the contrast is life (reward) and death (punishment).

And everlasting is the parallel.

Anyways, if ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) was true, the verse would say,

"And these shall go away into everlasting life to be tortured in flames: but the righteous into life eternal to be in peaceful bliss." (Matthew 25:46 ECT Influenced Translation).​

But the verse doesn't really say that, though; So Matthew 25:46 is not a solid case in proving Eternal Torment. At first glance, a person may get this impression when reading it, but we know that many verses in Scripture can be easily misunderstood with a quick reading (if we are not careful to compare Scripture with Scripture).


Sources used in this post:
(Please take note that I do not agree with everything these Christian authors believe, say, or do; I am merely posting the source links to show that I quoted them at certain times for the point of my article):
Apttpteach
Matthew 25:46 Does Not Prove Eternal Torment – Part 1 | Rethinking Hell
 
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"the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
I addressed Mark 9 in my post #4, and post #32.

You said:
cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50

Many Conditional Immortality Proponents believe the wicked will be punished in proportion to their sin. Meaning, they will suffer in the Lake of Fire for their sin for a time, and then be destroyed or annihilated. They believe that several Sabbaths and new moons will pass before the wicked will be displayed as burned up looking corpses or carcases in Isaiah 66:22-24 for the saints to witness or view as God's final judgment upon all evil. Such a view is totally compatible with Matthew 13:42, and Matthew 13:50. For Matthew 13:42, and Matthew 13:50 are not referring to an endless state of torment and torture.

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6

Right. This actually proves Conditional Immortality and not Eternal Torment. If Eternal Torment was true, then everyone gets the same punishment.... which is eternal torture in hell fire for all eternity. But if Conditional Immortality is true (Which it is), then this verse makes more sense because it is promoting fair justice. It is saying that those who make children to stumble into sin, they will face a worse punishment. Meaning, they will suffer longer and or more intensely in the Lake of Fire before they are annihilated. But if the Lake of Fire was eternal, they simply would all be punished unfairly for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes committed here upon this Earth. Everyone will have an equal form of punishment; Eternal Torture in the flames (Instead of fair justice showing degrees of punishment before they are destroyed or annihilated).

You said:
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23

I am not sure how you think this verse promotes Eternal Torment.
If I told a person to depart from me, it does not mean I am suggesting that they should be tortured in flames for all eternity.

woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24

Again, this verse supports Conditional Immortality and not Eternal Torment. It would be good that no wicked person of any kind should have been born if Eternal Torment is true because they will ALL suffer the same fate of being punished for all eternity. That's a horrible fate and this verse should be speaking about the wicked in GENERAL if Eternal Torment was true. But seeing it is referring to Judas, this is referring to how his punishment will be worse on the account of his sin. Nothing here about eternal torture but it is referring to fair justice in how that Judas will suffer a worse punishment in the Lake of Fire for a certain amount of time, before he is destroyed or annihilated.

You said:
“But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

Again, this speaks of fair justice and not Eternal Torment (Which is unfair justice). Fair justice is when a person is punished according to their sins. Unfair justice would be torturing people waaaay beyond the finite amount of crimes that they committed.
 
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Butch5

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You can see the Ark in Kentucky but it is not the original one. I believe there are two possibilities. They either named the valley that place because of Scripture talking about the underworld, or they referred to the name of that valley as being a reference to the Lake of Fire in the underworld. A person who made some dictionary may not always be right. The context of how that word is used gives us the meaning of that word. For it does not sound like Jesus is referring to a literal valley that is on fire upon the surface of the Earth in Matthew 5:28-30. Is this valley on fire today? Would this valley hold all the wicked being burned?

There's also another possibility. That being that Jesus was referring to that actual valley that is there now. Have you read the passage from Isaiah?

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith Jehovah, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith Jehovah. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the dead bodies of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa. 66:1 ASV)

It says all flesh will worship God. Is that going to be in some subterranean location? Is God going to reign from a subterranean place? The Scriptures tell us that God will rule from Jerusalem. Gehenna is just outside of Jerusalem. It seems to me that the people who are going to Jerusalem will pass by this valley called Gehenna and see all of these dead bodies burning. Note also what is burning in Gehenna, It is dead bodies, not living souls or spirit.

Here is what Jeremiah says about Gehenna.

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place. (Jer. 7:32 KJV)

Again, notice what is there. They are burying.


The word “hades” does not always refer to word “grave”; Scripture would be incoherent at times if the word hades always meant “the grave.” The word “hades” (hell) is tied to the story of Lazarus and the rich man (of which you right off as a metaphor when the wording does not indicate it as such).

Can you show me a passage of Scripture where Hades cannot be translated as the grave?

I haven't written off Lazarus and the Rich Man as a metaphor. I said it's a parable. It's a parable about the coming destruction of the priesthood.



The word “hell” is a little less precise, but all the original language words still refer to realm of the dead or the underworld.

It's a lot less precise and doesn't appear in the original languages. No, not all of the original words refer to the realm of the dead. Gehenna does not. There is nothing in Scripture that speaks of Gehenna being the realm of the dead. Hades does because it's the grave. Tartarus does because that's how it was used in Greek culture. However, as has been pointed out it's only used once in Scripture and is used in reference to angels not people.
 
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Butch5

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Internet nonsense.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, translated hades and gehenna in the LXX and NT.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]
[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught e.g.,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?
τω δε θεω και πατρι ημων η δοξα εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων αμην

You start many of your posts with a logical fallacy. "According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud," is the fallacy of "appeal to authority".
 
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In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.

You are repeating these same points again (See again: post #33).

…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Hebrews 10:28-31 is referring to a type of sin that is more punishable than others.

“Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye,
shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God” (Hebrews 10:29).​

Context:

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received
the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,” (Hebrews 10:26).​

Those who willfully sin after they received the knowledge of the truth will receive a more sorER punishment than others. So this is referring to punishment over worse kinds of sins. It is in reference to fair justice and not unfair justice of all the wicked being punished equally for all eternity in the flames no matter what kinds of sins they have done. If ECT was true, then this verse would not refer to degrees of punishment by using words like “sorer punishment.” Sure, you may assume that a wicked person may suffer more intensely for all eternity, but suffering for all eternity for any amount of sin is not fair justice. The fact that Hebrews 10:29 suggests a degree of worse punishment for a certain kind of sin gives us the impression that God is into fair justice (i.e. where the punishment actually fits the crime).

You said:
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels,

If Eternal Torment was true, then He would not have used the word “death” but he would have used the words “eternal torture for all time.” No verse specifically says that the wicked will suffer in flames for all eternity. Inferences are wrongfully made off of the text. The word “death” paints us the picture of something perishing and or ending. If we see a person die, that does not mean they are still alive suffering in a cemetery.

You said:
if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.

Again, Paul defines for us what this “everlasting punishment” actually is. In 2 Thessalonians 1:9, he describes the wicked as being punished with “everlasting destruction.” When a person dies today, their body meets destruction. A dead body that was placed in a cemetery faces everlasting destruction. It will forever perish and or decay and be no more.


Psalms 37:9-11 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait on the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yes, you shall diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.
Sure, you may say that these two pieces of Scripture above are referring to physical death only, but you will have a hard time twisting Scripture to make it refer to physical death only with the following two portions of Scripture (below).

The wicked shall be burnt up:

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Malachi 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts,

If I told you that I burned up a piece of paper, you would not think that I am continually burning the piece of paper for all eternity. You would think I lit a piece of paper on fire, and the fire then consumed the piece of paper and it was no more. It would be burned up.

You said:
The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.

The Sadducees did not believe in a resurrection. It is speculative at best as to what their view was on the Lake of Fire viewpoint. Scripture does not specifically say.

You said:
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,
“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4

Believers views on hell throughout time does not prove anything. Just because a believer lived in a different point in time does not make their opinion on the Scriptures better than anyone today. There are religious groups who are persecuted who are not even Christian. Granted, Christians are persecuted more than other religious groups, but the point here is that persecution does not necessarily mean that a person's understanding is without flaw or error in every instance in Scripture. So if Justin Martyr defended Eternal Torment, it does not mean that he was correct just because he was martyred for his faith.

You said:
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc?

Hell is a very real and literal place of punishment. The rich man was real and we learn in Scripture that he was tormented in the flames. This was a real narrative given to us by Jesus (via the gospel of Luke).

You said:
Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?
τω δε θεω και πατρι ημων η δοξα εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων αμην

In Matthew 25:46: It actually says “everlasting punishment” in the King James, and not “eternal punishment.” The punishment has everlasting consequences. Again, the “everlasting punishment” is “everlasting destruction” as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 1:9. Something that meets destruction is gone and or reduced to a state that is in ruin from what it used to be. It is no more. It is destroyed like how physical death is a destruction of the physical body.
 
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There's also another possibility. That being that Jesus was referring to that actual valley that is there now. Have you read the passage from Isaiah?

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith Jehovah, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith Jehovah. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the dead bodies of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa. 66:1 ASV)

It says all flesh will worship God. Is that going to be in some subterranean location? Is God going to reign from a subterranean place? The Scriptures tell us that God will rule from Jerusalem. Gehenna is just outside of Jerusalem. It seems to me that the people who are going to Jerusalem will pass by this valley called Gehenna and see all of these dead bodies burning. Note also what is burning in Gehenna, It is dead bodies, not living souls or spirit.

Here is what Jeremiah says about Gehenna.

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place. (Jer. 7:32 KJV)

Again, notice what is there. They are burying.

Thank you. I will pray about it and research it more. If such is the case, this complicates my original End Times timeline. I currently believe the Judgment takes place on the final New Earth after the Old Earth passes away. This is because Jesus referred to how some Jews will see Jacob, Isaac, etc. in the kingdom (the city of New Jerusalem) just and they would be thrust out.

It may be that they may burn in the Lake of Fire in the Old Earth, but their remains are taken to the New Earth so as to be seen or viewed.

You said:
Can you show me a passage of Scripture where Hades cannot be translated as the grave?

All verses that tie the word “hades” (Strong's G-86) to the English word “hell” is in reference to the underworld. 1 Corinthians 15:55 is the only time where the word “hades” is translated as “grave.”

Luke 16:23 says, “And in hell [hades -G86] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”​

This makes very little sense if the rich man lift up his eyes in the grave and talked with Abraham, etc.; But it would make sense if it was referring to the underworld (of which most people believe hell is in reference to).

Note: The words in bracket in blue is my commentary to the text.

You said:
I haven't written off Lazarus and the Rich Man as a metaphor. I said it's a parable. It's a parable about the coming destruction of the priesthood.

Sorry, brother. I disagree. There are only two ways to read the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

#1. Literal.
#2. Metaphorical.​

As for the parables of Jesus: ALL of the parables of Jesus are based on real world examples and not fictional stories. In our culture today: Fantasy has become an idol and ingrained in our culture. Movies, or comics, or video games, etc. have become a way of the American life. Fantasy is ever on the minds of Americans. Fantasy are just fictional UNTRUE stories. Sure, there may be an element of truth to them sometimes, but the overall story is untrue, and false. Jesus did not promote Hollywood storylines to us with His parables. Jesus told us about the truth, brother. Jesus gave us 100% and unadulterated truth. Pure truth. His parables were real world examples of what most likely already happened, or could happen (if He allowed certain events to take place - see Matthew 11:21), or was about to happen, etc.;

Jesus spoke truth because He is the truth.
Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.

You said:
It's a lot less precise and doesn't appear in the original languages. No, not all of the original words refer to the realm of the dead. Gehenna does not. There is nothing in Scripture that speaks of Gehenna being the realm of the dead. Hades does because it's the grave

I am open to the idea of Gehenna (the Lake of Fire) being in the “Valley of the Son of Hinnom” upon the Earth.

As for Hades:

Besides 1 Corinthians 15:55, all the other occurrences of the word “hades” when translated with the English word “hell” makes more sense if it is in reference to a place of the underworld and not the grave.

You said:
Tartarus does because that's how it was used in Greek culture. However, as has been pointed out it's only used once in Scripture and is used in reference to angels not people.

This appears to be not addressing the problem. If Tartarus (hell) is a place where angels are punished, then logic dictates that hell is used a place of punishment for others. In fact, that is what we read about in Luke 16 with the rich man in torments.
 
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Ok! But those who knew and traveled with the apostles, should have a close understanding of scripture, I believe. The apostolic Fathers, they could ask the apostles what was unclear. Of course like you say the Early Church writings are not inspired scripture, but they could point us to a direction.

“God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;”
(Romans 3:4).
 
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zoidar

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“God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;”
(Romans 3:4).

How are you then to understand the scripture? You are a man right?

Why would yours or mine understanding of scripture some 2000 years later, be better than those that fellowshipped with the apostles?
 
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Butch5

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Thank you. I will pray about it and research it more. If such is the case, this complicates my original End Times timeline. I currently believe the Judgment takes place on the final New Earth after the Old Earth passes away. This is because Jesus referred to how some Jews will see Jacob, Isaac, etc. in the kingdom (the city of New Jerusalem) just and they would be thrust out.

It may be that they may burn in the Lake of Fire in the Old Earth, but their remains are taken to the New Earth so as to be seen or viewed.

You're welcome! I would submit that there aren't two different earths, but one. Peter spoke of the restitution of all things.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:20-21 KJV)

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (Rev. 21:4-5 KJV)


Notice in this passage, He said, "behold, I make all things new". He didn't say I make all new things.

Paul said,

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (Rom. 8:19-21 KJV)


The creature here is the creation. The creation will be delivered from bondage into the sons of God. This indicates that the creation will be renewed.


All verses that tie the word “hades” (Strong's G-86) to the English word “hell” is in reference to the underworld. 1 Corinthians 15:55 is the only time where the word “hades” is translated as “grave.”

Luke 16:23 says, “And in hell [hades -G86] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”​

This makes very little sense if the rich man lift up his eyes in the grave and talked with Abraham, etc.; But it would make sense if it was referring to the underworld (of which most people believe hell is in reference to).

Note: The words in bracket in blue is my commentary to the text.

But, I'm not asking what the translators think it means. Can you show any passage where Hades is used that cannot be the grave?

The passage of Lazarus and the Rich Man does make sense if Hades is the grave. Look at the passage.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Lk. 16:22-23 KJV)

The passage says the Rich Man died and was buried. Where are people buried? Is it not in the grave: Notice it says the Rich Man was buried and in Hades he lifted up his eyes. Luke equate being buried with being in Hades. He was buried, and in Hades. If Hades is the grave and the rich man was buried, where would he be? In Hades.

The question I would ask is, if Hades is a subterranean location where people are alive, what went there? Jesus said the Rich Man was buried so his body was in the ground. But notice that the Rich Man has eyes. These are body parts. He has a tongue, another body part. Lazarus has a finger, another body part. Abraham has a bosom, a chest, another body part. He can speak, so he must have a mouth and tongue also. These are all body parts. These are things supposedly left behind with the body when it died. However, if Hades is the grave we would expect to see all of these parts there. Actually saying that Hades is the grave here fits nicely.

The question isn't what can the Bible accommodate, but rather what does it teach. Can you show me any Scripture that teaches that some part of man can live on after death to be in this subterranean place? Most people believe that the dead live on after the body dies. This is a majority belief. The question is, is this what the Bible teaches. I would submit that it is not what the Bible teaches. If we come to the text already believing this idea we can find passages that seem to support it. But again, is this what the Bible teaches or is this something we're bringing to the text?



Sorry, brother. I disagree. There are only two ways to read the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

#1. Literal.
#2. Metaphorical.​

As for the parables of Jesus: ALL of the parables of Jesus are based on real world examples and not fictional stories. In our culture today: Fantasy has become an idol and ingrained in our culture. Movies, or comics, or video games, etc. have become a way of the American life. Fantasy is ever on the minds of Americans. Fantasy are just fictional UNTRUE stories. Sure, there may be an element of truth to them sometimes, but the overall story is untrue, and false. Jesus did not promote Hollywood storylines to us with His parables. Jesus told us about the truth, brother. Jesus gave us 100% and unadulterated truth. Pure truth. His parables were real world examples of what most likely already happened, or could happen (if He allowed certain events to take place - see Matthew 11:21), or was about to happen, etc.;

Jesus spoke truth because He is the truth.
Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.

Of course Jesus spoke truth. The priesthood was destroyed just as He predicted. Look at the details of the parable. Why did Jesus say that the Rich Man had five brothers? Why was he dressed in purple and fine linen. Why did he say that the Rich Man fared sumptuously? Why was Lazarus full of sores? Why did the dogs lick his sores? Why was he carried away by angels? Why was he taken to Abraham's bosom? What does Abraham have to do with this? The answers to all of these questions tell us what the parable means. Jesus gave all of these specific details. They are important to the parable. If this was about an afterlife, why would it matter how many brothers the Rich Man had? Why would it matter what he wore? Why would it matter that Lazarus had sores or that the dogs licked his sores? These details wouldn't be important if the parable was simply about what happens when people die.



I am open to the idea of Gehenna (the Lake of Fire) being in the “Valley of the Son of Hinnom” upon the Earth.

It's the only place I see that can fit the Scriptures.

As for Hades:

Besides 1 Corinthians 15:55, all the other occurrences of the word “hades” when translated with the English word “hell” makes more sense if it is in reference to a place of the underworld and not the grave.

It depends on the translation, but the point is, again, are we bringing the idea of this underworld to the text of can it be established as taught in the Bible. I don't believe it can be established as taught in the Bible.



This appears to be not addressing the problem. If Tartarus (hell) is a place where angels are punished, then logic dictates that hell is used a place of punishment for others. In fact, that is what we read about in Luke 16 with the rich man in torments.

I don't believe anything is said about this being a place of punishment. It is said to hold angels until the time of judgment. If they haven't been judged yet how could the be punished.
 
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