LDS The Futile Attempt by Mormons to Earn God's Grace

BigDaddy4 · Jun 27, 2020

Ran77 said:
Amusing.

Yes, God will judge who is worthy. That was/is my point. If you are unable to correctly represent my comments then the failure is clearly in your statement.

Nice deflection, even more amusing.

If you truly believe that "God will judge who is worthy", then why is your membership judged on their "worthiness" to participate in certain rituals only performed in your temples?

He is the way · Jun 27, 2020

BigDaddy4 said:
If you truly believe that "No one is worthy...", then why does one have to be judged by a man to be deemed worthy to participate in your temple rituals? Your temples would be empty if that were the case.

We judge ourselves whether we are worthy or not. That being said God does appoint judges over His people.

Peter1000 · Jun 27, 2020

BigDaddy4 said:
Nice deflection, even more amusing.

If you truly believe that "God will judge who is worthy", then why is your membership judged on their "worthiness" to participate in certain rituals only performed in your temples?

Our bishops are not judges in regard to worthiness. They are administrators. The Lord lays out the requirements to enter the temple. The bishop and the members talk about those requirements and both come to a conclusion as to worthiness.

Sinlessness is not a requirement. Like you say, if sinlessness was a requirement, nobody would be able to attend the temple.

BTW, God is not the only judge that will judge people. He is the highest judge, but not the only judge.
Matthew 19:28 King James Version (KJV)
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

He is the way · Jun 27, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
James 2
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Jesus took our sins upon Him and paid our debt. He purchased our salvation with His blood. Mormons don't understand that. I can say it a thousand times and Mormons will always ignore the gospel message unless God opens their hearts.

Romans 4
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

The apostles preached, but it was God who converted the sinners.

Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

You said: "Jesus took our sins upon Him and paid our debt. He purchased our salvation with His blood. Mormons don't understand that."

Members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints do indeed understand that. We also understand that sinners need to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins in order for those sins to be remitted through the atonement of Jesus Christ:

(New Testament | Matthew 3:5 - 12)

5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judæa, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 ¶ But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Rescued One · Jun 27, 2020

He is the way said:
You said: "Jesus took our sins upon Him and paid our debt. He purchased our salvation with His blood. Mormons don't understand that."

Members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints do indeed understand that. We also understand that sinners need to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins in order for those sins to be remitted through the atonement of Jesus Christ:

(New Testament | Matthew 3:5 - 12)

5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judæa, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 ¶ But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Christians are not baptized by Mormons. They bring forth good fruit through God's work in them. Christians have the Holy Spirit and walk in the light of Christ.

What Mormons teach is that mercy and grace have to be earned:

Doctrine and Covenants 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

You god's hands are tied by man's supposed free will.

D&C 82
9 Or, in other words, I give unto you directions how you may act before me, that it may turn to you for your salvation.

10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

D&C 82:10. “I, the Lord, Am Bound When Ye Do What I Say”

This verse shows a part of God’s basic nature: the way He deals with His children and the reason they can trust Him. Elder James E. Talmage said: “‘Mormonism’ has taught me that God holds himself accountable to law even as he expects us to do. He has set us the example in obedience to law. I know that to say this would have been heresy a few decades ago. But we have the divine word for it: ‘I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.’ (Doc. and Cov. 82:10.) He operates by law and not by arbitrariness or caprice.” (In Conference Report, Apr. 1930, p. 96.)
Section 82, “I, the Lord, Am Bound When Ye Do What I Say”

D&C 82:13–14. How Can Zion Increase in Beauty?

President Harold B. Lee explained:

“Zion, as used here, undoubtedly had reference to the Church. At that time there was but a small body of Church members just beginning to emerge as an organization, after having experienced harsh treatment from enemies outside the Church. …

“To be worthy of such a sacred designation as Zion, the Church must think of itself as a bride adorned for her husband, as John the Revelator recorded when he saw in vision the Holy City where the righteous dwelled, adorned as a bride for the Lamb of God as her husband. Here is portrayed the relationship the Lord desires in his people in order to be acceptable to our Lord and Master even as a wife would adorn herself in beautiful garments for her husband.

“The rule by which the people of God must live in order to be worthy of acceptance in the sight of God is indicated [in this verse]. This people must increase in beauty before the world; have an inward loveliness which may be observed by mankind as a reflection in holiness and in those inherent qualities of sanctity. The borders of Zion, where the righteous and pure in heart may dwell, must now begin to be enlarged. The stakes of Zion must be strengthened. All this so that Zion may arise and shine by becoming increasingly diligent in carrying out the plan of salvation throughout the world.” (In Conference Report, Apr. 1973, pp. 4–5; or Ensign, July 1973, p. 3.)
Section 82, “I, the Lord, Am Bound When Ye Do What I Say”

He is the way · Jun 27, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
Christians are not baptized by Mormons. They bring forth good fruit through God's work in them. Christians have the Holy Spirit and walk in the light of Christ.

What Mormons teach is that mercy and grace have to be earned:

Doctrine and Covenants 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

You god's hands are tied by man's supposed free will.

D&C 82
9 Or, in other words, I give unto you directions how you may act before me, that it may turn to you for your salvation.

10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

D&C 82:10. “I, the Lord, Am Bound When Ye Do What I Say”

This verse shows a part of God’s basic nature: the way He deals with His children and the reason they can trust Him. Elder James E. Talmage said: “‘Mormonism’ has taught me that God holds himself accountable to law even as he expects us to do. He has set us the example in obedience to law. I know that to say this would have been heresy a few decades ago. But we have the divine word for it: ‘I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.’ (Doc. and Cov. 82:10.) He operates by law and not by arbitrariness or caprice.” (In Conference Report, Apr. 1930, p. 96.)
Section 82, “I, the Lord, Am Bound When Ye Do What I Say”

D&C 82:13–14. How Can Zion Increase in Beauty?

President Harold B. Lee explained:

“Zion, as used here, undoubtedly had reference to the Church. At that time there was but a small body of Church members just beginning to emerge as an organization, after having experienced harsh treatment from enemies outside the Church. …

“To be worthy of such a sacred designation as Zion, the Church must think of itself as a bride adorned for her husband, as John the Revelator recorded when he saw in vision the Holy City where the righteous dwelled, adorned as a bride for the Lamb of God as her husband. Here is portrayed the relationship the Lord desires in his people in order to be acceptable to our Lord and Master even as a wife would adorn herself in beautiful garments for her husband.

“The rule by which the people of God must live in order to be worthy of acceptance in the sight of God is indicated [in this verse]. This people must increase in beauty before the world; have an inward loveliness which may be observed by mankind as a reflection in holiness and in those inherent qualities of sanctity. The borders of Zion, where the righteous and pure in heart may dwell, must now begin to be enlarged. The stakes of Zion must be strengthened. All this so that Zion may arise and shine by becoming increasingly diligent in carrying out the plan of salvation throughout the world.” (In Conference Report, Apr. 1973, pp. 4–5; or Ensign, July 1973, p. 3.)
Section 82, “I, the Lord, Am Bound When Ye Do What I Say”

You said: "What Mormons teach is that mercy and grace have to be earned:"

We understand what the Bible says regarding mercy and grace. We know that without the atonement we would not be saved no mater how much we did. We would still be unprofitable servants, but servants never the less. Jesus said He has mercy on those who LOVE and obey Him:

(Old Testament | Exodus 20:6)

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

(New Testament | Hebrews 5:8 - 9)

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

What happens to the unprofitable servants?:

(New Testament | Luke 17:10)

10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

(New Testament | Matthew 25:29 - 46)

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Yes we understand the meaning of mercy, grace, and service.

Rescued One · Jun 27, 2020

Your claim of understanding mercy, grace, and service are according to Mormon definitions which do not align with non-Mormon understandings. Your view is defined by Joseph Smith and his religion.

“There will be a wise and just God to sit in judgment on all men. … The wicked may prosper for a time, the rebellious may seem to profit by their transgressions, but the time is coming when, at the bar of justice, all men will be judged, ‘every man according to their works’ (Rev. 20:13). No one will ‘get by’ with anything. On that day no one will escape the penalty of his deeds, no one will fail to receive the blessings he has earned. Again, the parable of the sheep and the goats gives us assurance that there will be total justice.”
Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 305

How is that different than the covenant God had with Israel prior to Christ's sacrifice for the sins of believers?

He is the way · Jun 27, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
Your claim of understanding mercy, grace, and service are according to Mormon definitions which do not align with non-Mormon understandings. Your view is defined by Joseph Smith and his religion.

“There will be a wise and just God to sit in judgment on all men. … The wicked may prosper for a time, the rebellious may seem to profit by their transgressions, but the time is coming when, at the bar of justice, all men will be judged, ‘every man according to their works’ (Rev. 20:13). No one will ‘get by’ with anything. On that day no one will escape the penalty of his deeds, no one will fail to receive the blessings he has earned. Again, the parable of the sheep and the goats gives us assurance that there will be total justice.”
Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 305

How is that different than the covenant God had with Israel prior to Christ's sacrifice for the sins of believers?

My claim of understanding mercy, grace, and service are according to the Bible Other beliefs may not align with what the Bible says, but mine do. Man will indeed receive recompense for their works whether they be good or evil:

(Old Testament | Job 34:11 - 33)

11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.
12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.
13 Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world?
14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
16 If now thou hast understanding, hear this: hearken to the voice of my words.
17 Shall even he that hateth right govern? and wilt thou condemn him that is most just?
18 Is it fit to say to a king, Thou art wicked? and to princes, Ye are ungodly?
19 How much less to him that accepteth not the persons of princes, nor regardeth the rich more than the poor? for they all are the work of his hands.
20 In a moment shall they die, and the people shall be troubled at midnight, and pass away: and the mighty shall be taken away without hand.
21 For his eyes are upon the ways of man, and he seeth all his goings.
22 There is no darkness, nor shadow of death, where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.
23 For he will not lay upon man more than right; that he should enter into judgment with God.
24 He shall break in pieces mighty men without number, and set others in their stead.
25 Therefore he knoweth their works, and he overturneth them in the night, so that they are destroyed.
26 He striketh them as wicked men in the open sight of others;
27 Because they turned back from him, and would not consider any of his ways:
28 So that they cause the cry of the poor to come unto him, and he heareth the cry of the afflicted.
29 When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only:
30 That the hypocrite reign not, lest the people be ensnared.
31 Surely it is meet to be said unto God, I have borne chastisement, I will not offend any more:
32 That which I see not teach thou me: if I have done iniquity, I will do no more.
33 Should it be according to thy mind? he will recompense it, whether thou refuse, or whether thou choose; and not I: therefore speak what thou knowest.

Rescued One · Jun 27, 2020

He is the way said:
My claim of understanding mercy, grace, and service are according to the Bible Other beliefs may not align with what the Bible says, but mine do.

Thank you for the propaganda.

He is the way said:
Man will indeed receive recompense for their works whether they be good or evil:

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Romans 3
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

To God be the glory!

He is the way · Jun 28, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
Thank you for the propaganda.

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Romans 3
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

To God be the glory!

I can quote Paul also from Romans Chapter 6, Paul knew who was justified by grace and who wasn't:

(New Testament | Romans 6:1 - 16)

1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

We already know what happens to the unprofitable servant.

Ran77 · Jun 29, 2020

BigDaddy4 said:
Nice deflection, even more amusing.

I'm content to let my statement stand on its own merit. If you want to call it deflection, that's fine with me.

BigDaddy4 said:
If you truly believe that "God will judge who is worthy", then why is your membership judged on their "worthiness" to participate in certain rituals only performed in your temples?

I can truly believe that God will judge who is worthy and the other members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints can also truly believe that God will judge who is worthy. That belief is not impacted by whether, or not, your claim that our membership is judged based on worthiness is true or accurate. They are separate topics that do not have an interactive correlation to one another.

It's odd that you and I have both expressed a belief that God will judge who is worthy and yet your posts seem to be about finding fault with that concept. Do you feel that arguing about something that we seem to agree about is helpful in some way?

Ran77 · Jun 29, 2020

Peter1000 said:
BTW, God is not the only judge that will judge people. He is the highest judge, but not the only judge.
Matthew 19:28 King James Version (KJV)
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Oops. That's problematic.

BigDaddy4 · Jun 29, 2020

He is the way said:
We judge ourselves whether we are worthy or not. That being said God does appoint judges over His people.

So it's man-made then. What happened to your "if you love God, keep his commandments of LOVE" mantra. God will judge who is worthy, yet your organization says that's not good enough, that you need to judge your own by man-made criteria. That doesn't sound very "LOVE"-ing does it? Especially when you are excluding others.

BigDaddy4 · Jun 29, 2020

Peter1000 said:
Our bishops are not judges in regard to worthiness. They are administrators. The Lord lays out the requirements to enter the temple. The bishop and the members talk about those requirements and both come to a conclusion as to worthiness.

However you want to spin it, they are still the judges of who is worthy or not. Administration of man-made rules does not give them the authority to judge the worthiness of another person.

Peter1000 said:
BTW, God is not the only judge that will judge people. He is the highest judge, but not the only judge.
Matthew 19:28 King James Version (KJV)
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Another shameful misuse of Scripture. This is not judgement day, nor are we talking about the 12 tribes of Israel.

BigDaddy4 · Jun 29, 2020

Ran77 said:
I'm content to let my statement stand on its own merit. If you want to call it deflection, that's fine with me.

I can truly believe that God will judge who is worthy and the other members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints can also truly believe that God will judge who is worthy. That belief is not impacted by whether, or not, your claim that our membership is judged based on worthiness is true or accurate. They are separate topics that do not have an interactive correlation to one another.

It's odd that you and I have both expressed a belief that God will judge who is worthy and yet your posts seem to be about finding fault with that concept. Do you feel that arguing about something that we seem to agree about is helpful in some way?

Do you even realize what quote you were responding to that started this conversation? Try re-reading your post #53 for context. It is within that context that I find fault with you statements.

BigDaddy4 · Jun 29, 2020

Ran77 said:
Oops. That's problematic.

Oops. Only if we are talking about judgement day, the end times, or judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Which we are not. OOOPS!

Peter1000 · Jun 29, 2020

BigDaddy4 said:
However you want to spin it, they are still the judges of who is worthy or not. Administration of man-made rules does not give them the authority to judge the worthiness of another person.

Another shameful misuse of Scripture. This is not judgement day, nor are we talking about the 12 tribes of Israel.

I tell you how it is, and you go right straight back to your judge complex. It is a discussion between the bishop and the member, they both come to a conclusion, not just the bishop alone.

Did Peter and the apostles in the first century church use their keys to judge people? They had the power to not only bind, but to loose, which is certainly a judgement call. The power to loose is excommunicating someone or taking away their bishopric, etc.

Is there never a time in your church when your pastor or bishop has to excommunicate someone, or discipline someone for deviant behavior..

IOW you are being judgemental that our bishops don't have the right to be judges of the people. God has had judges throughout the time of the world. So just get over it. We will do what we think is right, you and your church gets to do what you think is right.

My scripture should open your eyes that there will be resurrected men to help in the judgement.
This scripture (far from being shamefully misused) tells us that the 12 apostles will sit on thrones and judge the 12 tribes of Israel. Thats billions of people.

Are there other resurrected men that will sit on thrones to help judge the other people of the earth. There certainly are many worthy men through the ages that could be called to help.

Besides from this scripture how do you know it is not judgement day?

Peter1000 · Jun 29, 2020

BigDaddy4 said:
Oops. Only if we are talking about judgement day, the end times, or judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Which we are not. OOOPS!

Do the 12 tribes of Israel not get judged on judgement day, in the end times? Of course they will, and the 12 apostles sitting on their thrones will be helping Jesus do the judging? We are talking about judging people, doesn't really matter what people, unless you think the tribes of Israel aren't people and won't be judged.

He is the way · Jun 29, 2020

BigDaddy4 said:
So it's man-made then. What happened to your "if you love God, keep his commandments of LOVE" mantra. God will judge who is worthy, yet your organization says that's not good enough, that you need to judge your own by man-made criteria. That doesn't sound very "LOVE"-ing does it? Especially when you are excluding others.

We do not exclude others, they exclude themselves. It is not man made criteria. The Bible teaches this:

(New Testament | Matthew 7:11 - 14)

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

(New Testament | Matthew 7:1 - 2)

1 JUDGE not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

BigDaddy4 · Jun 29, 2020

Peter1000 said:
I tell you how it is, and you go right straight back to your judge complex. It is a discussion between the bishop and the member, they both come to a conclusion, not just the bishop alone.

Did Peter and the apostles in the first century church use their keys to judge people? They had the power to not only bind, but to loose, which is certainly a judgement call. The power to loose is excommunicating someone or taking away their bishopric, etc.

Is there never a time in your church when your pastor or bishop has to excommunicate someone, or discipline someone for deviant behavior..

IOW you are being judgemental that our bishops don't have the right to be judges of the people. God has had judges throughout the time of the world. So just get over it. We will do what we think is right, you and your church gets to do what you think is right.

My scripture should open your eyes that there will be resurrected men to help in the judgement.
This scripture (far from being shamefully misused) tells us that the 12 apostles will sit on thrones and judge the 12 tribes of Israel. Thats billions of people.

Are there other resurrected men that will sit on thrones to help judge the other people of the earth. There certainly are many worthy men through the ages that could be called to help.

Besides from this scripture how do you know it is not judgement day?

None of what you said addresses the worthiness of entering a temple to participate in one of our rituals. Please stay on track.

Peter and the apostles did not judge one's worthiness to enter a temple to participate in a ritual. This actually works against your "restored" church because there were no temples in the first century church to be deemed worthy or not to enter.

The 12 apostles are not judging the 12 tribes on their worthiness to enter in a temple to participate in a religious ritual.

So, get over it??

LDS The Futile Attempt by Mormons to Earn God's Grace

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