Ammillennial Return of Christ: by Dr. Sam Storms

Douggg said:

5thKingdom, I don't think what comes out in your writing is what is in your mind. Communication, writing skills need work. I don't think anyone can understand what you are trying to convey in your post. imo. Use bible terms, and refer to exact passage(s), and pay close attention to your grammar.

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I do not have a problem with communication, I suggest the
problem is with your reading comprehension.

As far as using Bible terms... I said:
(1) Great Tribulation
(2) Revelation Beasts
(3) Daniel's Fourth Beast/Kingdom

You think those are NOT Bible terms? LOL
You think passages are needed? Those terms need no verses.
You think my grammar is poor? I suggest your reading
comprehension is the problem. My grammar was fine.

(1) Do you know what the "Great Tribulation" means?
(2) Do you know what the "Revelation Beasts" mean"
(3) Do you know what Daniel's Fourth Beast/Kingdom means?

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Douggg said:

For example, 5thKingdom you should have wrote "in the Revelation 13 beast kingdom. The kingdom which the beast will be head of.
And you should have named or identified what nations make up that kingdom.

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Dougg...

Why do you NOT understand that "Beast" and "Kingdom"
are the SAME THING?

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Dan 7:3
And four great BEASTS came up from the sea,
diverse one from another.


Dan 7:23
Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom
upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms [Beasts],
and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and
break it in pieces.

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You see Douggg... the PROBLEM is with your reading
comprehension and you understanding of Scripture.

Beast = Kingdom

I don't know WHY that is news to you. All the Bible students
I have known over the years understood that Beast = Kingdom.
I suggest the problem is YOU. Apparently you do not even
understand the meaning of the terms you are using.

Daniel's fourth Beast/Kingdom = the Revelation Beast/Kingdom =
the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
This is common knowledge Douggg. Why is it "news" to you?

Note: I will give you a break here.
It is true that, in Revelation ONLY, the Bible does refer
(once or twice) to the Anti-Christ who is the "head" of the Beast
(the 7th "head") by the name "Beast". So I can see how you
could be confused. You must pay attention to the CONTEXT.

Just like the word "church" could mean ONLY the saved "wheat",
or it could mean both the "wheat and tares"... you must pay
attention to the CONTEXT.

Just like the phrase "kings of the earth" could represent the
saved "wheat" or it could represent the unsaved "tares"...
depending on the CONTEXT.

BOTTOM LINE:
The PEOPLE who make-up Daniel's Fourth Beast
are the same PEOPLE who make up the Revelation Beast
and the same PEOPLE living in the Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1] If you do not know
this basic reality then you will remain confused.

In Matthew 25 they are called the "ten virgins"
In Revelation 17 they are called the ten "kings" and ten "horns"
In Daniel 7 they are ALSO called the ten "kings" and ten "horns"
In Daniel 2:44 they are called the ten "kings" who are living on
earth when the Lord Returns.

This is really very BASIC understanding Douggg...
The fact that you don't know this explains your confusion.
It is NOT my grammar that is the problem.


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Douggg said:

For example, 5thKingdom you should have wrote "in the Revelation 13 beast kingdom. The kingdom which the beast will be head of.
And you should have named or identified what nations make up that kingdom.

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As I explained in the previous post.
In Revelation the term "Beast" almost always represents
the PEOPLE following the Anti-Christ (the "Kingdom") of the
"Little Horn" or "False Prophet" of Seventh "head".

However... there are one or two passages where the Bible
calls the "head" of the Fourth Kingdom by the name "Beast".
So I can understand you confusion in one or two verses of
Revelation... but that does not apply to Daniel's Beast/Kingdom
or the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]

Generally speaking "Beast" = "Kingdom" = PEOPLE
I hope this helps eliminate your confusion.


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Douggg said:

For example, 5thKingdom you should have wrote "in the Revelation 13 beast kingdom. The kingdom which the beast will be head of.
And you should have named or identified what nations make up that kingdom.

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Dougg... there are NO NATIONS that make-up the Revelation Beast.

Revelation Beast = Daniel's 4th Beast = Great Tribulation.

The PEOPLE who make-up the Revelation Beast are called
ten "horns" and ten "kings". See Rev 17

Rev 17:12 -13
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings,
which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power
as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind,
and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Rev 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree,
and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words
of God shall be fulfilled.


These SAME PEOPLE are called ten "horns" and ten "kings"
in Daniel 7

These SAME PEOPLE are called ten "kings" in Daniel 2:44

These SAME PEOPLE are called ten "virgins" in Matthew 25:1-13

IN EACH CASE THEY ARE THE PEOPLE LIVING ON EARTH
WHEN THE SEVENTH TRUMPET SOUNDS AND THE LORD
RETURNS IN GLORY.

I hope this information helps to clear-up your confusion about
how Daniel's Beast = Revelation Beast = Great Tribulation

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keras said:

What is it that makes you post things like this?
It seems you aren't able to discuss issues that conflict with your beliefs. I have refuted you over many prophesies, but you just keep coming back with the same tired old posts and screeds of scriptures that don't prove anything.

What will be a natural event is the Sixth Seal, Day of the Lords fiery wrath. I have posted many times about that forthcoming Day, we Christians should know about it and be prepared physically and spiritually.

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The opposite is the truth. You have refuted nothing Baberean has presented.

The 6th seal is the end! Revelation 6:13-14 relates to the final destruction described in Isaiah 34 to the appearance of the Lord at the second coming, where the wicked finally receive their reward. The sixth seal says, “And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

This passage, which is speaking of the exact same scene as Rev 19, asks a simple question: "who shall be able to stand?” This of course is a rhetorical question: meaning the answer is obvious. Well, it is obvious to those who don't have a theological agenda to impute into the text. No one that is left behind will survive the wrath of God that He pours out on the ungodly on this fateful final day. So rather than rewarding all those that attack Jerusalem by allowing them to inherit the new earth, Christ destroys them and their rebellion.

So as to remove any confusion over the full extent of those that will be destroyed who are left behind, the Holy Spirit says: "the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man." Obviously if a human isn't "free" they are "a bondman" (or a slave).

This reading correlates with Revelation 19 and graphically describes the same apocalyptic scene. It shows what awaits those left behind at Christ's Coming. The book of Revelation is like that. It is a recapitulation of events approaching the second coming and things that attend it. Here, when the reality of their awful doomed state finally hits them, the wicked hide from the One that has come to destroy. Like Noah and Lot's day, their day of opportunity is gone. Without exceptions, all outside the ark (Christ) at the catching away will be destroyed, whether bond or free.

5thKingdom said:

Why do you NOT understand that "Beast" and "Kingdom"
are the SAME THING?

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Depending on context, a beast could represent a kingdom, symbolically.

In Revelation 13:1 the beast coming out of the sea represents a kingdom and a man, a king.

In Daniel 7 the four beasts coming out of the sea presesents four kingdoms. Also, in Daniel 7:17
The four beasts represent four kings.

17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

5thKingdom said:

Dougg... there are NO NATIONS that make-up the Revelation Beast.

Revelation Beast = Daniel's 4th Beast = Great Tribulation.

The PEOPLE who make-up the Revelation Beast are called
ten "horns" and ten "kings". See Rev 17

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5th Kingdom, you are not communicatiing clearly.

Is this what you are trying to say?

The Revelation 13:1 Beast (as a kingdom) = Daniel 7's fourth kingdom. During the Great Tribulation.

My question to you is of that kingdom - what specific nations are part of that kingdom ?

5thKingdom said:

These SAME PEOPLE are called ten "horns" and ten "kings"
in Daniel 7

These SAME PEOPLE are called ten "kings" in Daniel 2:44

These SAME PEOPLE are called ten "virgins" in Matthew 25:1-13

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The ten virgins are part of a parable and have nothing to do with being the the ten kings.

5thKingdom said:

BOTTOM LINE:
The PEOPLE who make-up Daniel's Fourth Beast
are the same PEOPLE who make up the Revelation Beast
and the same PEOPLE living in the Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1] If you do not know
this basic reality then you will remain confused.

In Matthew 25 they are called the "ten virgins"
In Revelation 17 they are called the ten "kings" and ten "horns"
In Daniel 7 they are ALSO called the ten "kings" and ten "horns"
In Daniel 2:44 they are called the ten "kings" who are living on
earth when the Lord Returns.

This is really very BASIC understanding Douggg...
The fact that you don't know this explains your confusion.
It is NOT my grammar that is the problem.


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So which five of the 10 kings are meaning the five wise virgins? Which five of the 10 kings are meaning the five foolish virgins?


Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

This text indicates all 10 kings shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them. So I guess that means, not only do you have the five foolish virgins making war with the Lamb, you also have the five wise virgins making war with the Lamb.

BABerean2 said:

When I first came to this forum one member was talking about a CME causing a thermite reaction on the moon. My background in chemistry allowed me to show that the pure Aluminum, and Iron Oxide needed for the thermite reaction are not found on the lunar surface. No reactants, no reaction. This debunked the claim.

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You did correct me. Then I found out the right result that will happen when the moon is struck by a superheated mass of Hydrogen plasma; a thermoluminescent reaction. I have not seen your reply to that, so I just thought ; BaB can't refute me and he hasn't the moral fortitude to admit I'm right and he's wrong.

BABerean2 said:

f you get upset with me for showing what is plainly written in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, I will still love you.

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You just assume that 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, will happen at Jesus Return. That this belief is wrong, is proved from many other scriptures.
Flaming fire is not mentioned in any of the 3 main prophesies about the Return.

But it is vividly described as part of the terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath. Which; as we see in Revelation, is several years before the Return.

keras said:

You did correct me. Then I found out the right result that will happen when the moon is struck by a superheated mass of Hydrogen plasma; a thermoluminescent reaction. I have not seen your reply to that, so I just thought ; BaB can't refute me and he hasn't the moral fortitude to admit I'm right and he's wrong.

You just assume that 2 Thessalonians 6-10, will happen at Jesus Return. That this belief is wrong, is proved from many other scriptures.
Flaming fire is not mentioned in any of the 3 main prophesies about the Return.

But it is vividly described as part of the terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath. Which; as we see in Revelation, is several years before the Return.

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Your fight is with the sacred text, not Baberean. You obviously have a serious problem with it!

keras said:

You just assume that 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, will happen at Jesus Return. That this belief is wrong, is proved from many other scriptures.
Flaming fire is not mentioned in any of the 3 main prophesies about the Return.

But it is vividly described as part of the terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath. Which; as we see in Revelation, is several years before the Return.

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In flaming fire is meaning in a figurative sense, not in a literal sense.

Lamentations 2:3 He hath cut off in his fierce anger all the horn of Israel: he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy, and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about.

Though unrelated, but maybe in a sense like this.

DavidPT said:

In flaming fire is meaning in a figurative sense, not in a literal sense.

Lamentations 2:3 He hath cut off in his fierce anger all the horn of Israel: he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy, and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about.

Though unrelated, but maybe in a sense like this.

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One thing I have noticed over this last 20 years, and which I highlighted on another thread: Premil spiritualizes the literal passages and literalizes the spiritual passages. Their hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point.

sovereigngrace said:

One thing I have noticed over this last 20 years, and which I highlighted on another thread: Premil spiritualizes the literal passages and literalizes the spiritual passages. Their hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point.

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Unlike Keras, as well as some Preterists, though Keras is not a Preterist himself, I at least am applying 2 Thessalonians 1:8 to the correct event, that being the bodily 2nd coming of Christ. I don't see any reason that in flaming fire has to be understood in the literal sense. If that has to be understood in the literal sense, why aren't some arguing that the sword that proceedth out of His mouth in Revelation 19, that this is meaning in the literal sense as well?

BABerean2 said:

This world is going to burn at His return.

Rev_18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,


Rev_18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

.

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Even though the following isn't meaning literally like described, it is still meaning after He has returned after having received the kingdom.

Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

His servants being called to Him where? On the earth that is engulfed in flames at the time? The scene can't be heaven since that is where He returns from. Where would He be returning to if not the earth? But He would be returning to an earth literally ablaze at the time though, then calling His servants before Him on a planet that is literally engulfed in flames?

5thKingdom said:

As far as using Bible terms... I said:
(1) Great Tribulation
(2) Revelation Beasts
(3) Daniel's Fourth Beast/Kingdom

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5thKingdom said:

1) Do you know what the "Great Tribulation" means?
(2) Do you know what the "Revelation Beasts" mean"
(3) Do you know what Daniel's Fourth Beast/Kingdom means?

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There many beasts in Revelation.

1. The first beast in Revelation 13:1 represents both a kingdom and a man, who is king of that kingdom.

2. The second beast in Revelation 13:11 represents the false prophet, a man, who is not a king.

3. The scarlet colored beast in Revelation 17:3 represents Satan.

4. The beast in Revelation 17:8a represents the original serpent in the Garden of Eden, now in the bottomless pit as a disembodied spirit.

5. The beast in Revelation 17:8b represents the end times person, the man in Revelation 13:1, who the world will witness being killed and come back to life.

6. The beast in Revelation 17:11 represents a man who will become the 8th king, of the Daniel 7 fourth kingdom. He is the beast of Revelation 13:1, the man, who is king of the Revelation 13:1 kingdom.

Only one of those beasts represent a kingdom. So your claim that the Revelation Beasts (plural) = the fourth kingdom (singular) of Daniel 7 is wrong. The fourth kingdom is singular and the first beast in Revelation 13:1 is singular.

The beast of Revelation 17:11 = 8th king of the Daniel 7 fourth kingdom = the man in Revelation 13:1 who is king of the Revelation 13:1 kingdom, which that kingdom is the Daniel 7 fourth kingdom.

The Great Tribulation is a future 1335 day long period of time which will be the most horrific time in human history.

DavidPT said:

Unlike Keras, as well as some Preterists, though Keras is not a Preterist himself, I at least am applying 2 Thessalonians 1:8 to the correct event, that being the bodily 2nd coming of Christ. I don't see any reason that in flaming fire has to be understood in the literal sense. If that has to be understood in the literal sense, why aren't some arguing that the sword that proceedth out of His mouth in Revelation 19, that this is meaning in the literal sense as well?

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Jesus does not Return for His Millennium reign in flaming fire.
2 Thess 1:8, is plainly a reference to the Lords Day of fiery wrath, paralleled by many other prophesies; Isaiah 66:15, Malachi 4:1, 2 Peter 3:7, +

The Sword of His Word, that Jesus uses to destroy the armies of the Anti-Christ at Armageddon, is plainly allegorical for His supernatural power.

BABerean2 said:

This world is going to burn at His return.

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This simply does not relate to any of the Bible prophesies.
Jesus will Return as the conquering King, over a world that will have had all the ungodly people killed. Either from the Great Tribulation punishments, or at the Battle of Armageddon. His enemies will have been made His footstool. Hebrews 10:13
Only when nearly 1000 years have passed, will Satan again deceive many and they will be instantly cremated. Revelation 20:9