If We Won't Hear Moses; Will We Hear Messiah?

Mr. M · Jun 27, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Ga 3:24
So that the law has become our escort to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.

Yep. The Law brings us this far:
Romans 7:
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
I am convinced and convicted that I need a Savior, as I am unable
to attain to righteousness by a Law alone.
Yeshua to the rescue!
John 14:
15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
that He may abide with you forever—
17 the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him
nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
Halleluyah!
Romans 8:15. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received
the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
Galatians 3:
24 Therefore the Law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Halleluyah! Faith Has Come!
Galatians 4:
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage
under the elements of the world.
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son,
born of a woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts,
crying out, “Abba, Father!”
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son,
then an heir of God through Christ.
Free at last! Free at last!

HARK! · Jun 27, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
Yep. The Law brings us this far:
Romans 7:
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

When we look at this verse in a literal translation; we get the full picture of Paul's message.

(CLV) Ro 7:25
I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.

Slaving for YHWH's law... Now that is an expression of belief in Messiah!

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Mr. M · Jun 27, 2020

HARK! said:
When we look at this verse in a literal translation; we get the full picture of Paul's message.

(CLV) Ro 7:25
I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.

Slaving for YHWH's law... Now that is an expression of belief in Messiah!

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

What point then is Paul making here:
Romans 3:21. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed,
being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets.
Galatians 2:21. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law,
then Christ died in vain.
Romans 9:
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness,
have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained
to the law of righteousness.
32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.
For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
33 As it is written:
Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

Hark!
Correct me if I am wrong, but I always see you quoting verses such as Galatians 3:24,
as if to suggest that I am going to study the Torah and conclude "now I know how to be righteous".
That is exactly what Paul is NOT saying. Could you say it better?

HARK! · Jun 27, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
What point then is Paul making here:
Romans 3:21. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed,
being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets.

We have to look at the verse in context.

19 Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,20 because, by works of law, no flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin."21 Yet now, apart from law, a righteousness of God is manifest (being attested by the law and the prophets), 22 yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction, 23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God. 24 Being justified gratuitously in His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus" 25 (Whom God purposed for a Propitiatory shelter, through faith in His blood, for a display of His righteousness because of the passing over of the penalties of sins which occurred before in the forbearance of God),

Some get a little too big for their britches, and think that they have the righteousness of YHWH. Only YHWH has YHWH's righteousness.

What is righteousness?

What is righteousness?

Definition of righteous

1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
Definition of RIGHTEOUS

But this righteousness of YHWH is apart from the Torah.

If YHWH held us to the Torah in the strictest sense; we'd all be goners. His grace covers our sins that we committed, before we came to Messiah. This grace is apart from the penalties outlined in the Torah.

Mr. M · Jun 27, 2020

HARK! said:
But this righteousness of YHWH is apart from the Torah.

If YHWH held us to the Torah in the strictest sense; we'd all be goners. His grace covers our sins that we committed, before we came to Messiah. This grace is apart from the penalties outlined in the Torah.

Okay, but doesn't Messiah now hold us to an even higher standard, by the Law of Spirit of Life in Christ?
Matthew 5:20. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
If the Law is a child's tutor, the Holy Spirit in our 'Master's Degree'. Pun intended.

HARK! · Jun 27, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
Okay, but doesn't Messiah now hold us to an even higher standard, by the Law of Spirit of Life in Christ?

What is this law?

It's only mentioned once, in the Bible, in one of Paul's letters.

Romans 8 (CLV)
1 Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. Not according to flesh are they walking, but according to spirit, 2 for the spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus frees you from the law of sin and death.

Paul has presented us with a dichotomy; but notice the word consequently. This dichotomy is a conclusion based on predicating verses. This appears to be a very poor choice for a chapter break.

Let's investigate further.

Look at the verse right before it!

24 A wretched man am I! What will rescue me out of this body of death? Grace! 25 I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law."

Another dichotomy, between slaving to YHWH's perfect Torah, and transgressing YHWH's perfect Torah.

Obviously the Ruach's law of life, relates to slaving to YHWH's law; but then wasn't this the message from the beginning?

HARK! · Jun 27, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
Matthew 5:20. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
If the Law is a child's tutor, the Holy Spirit in our 'Master's Degree'. Pun intended.

I wouldn't have used this example. Yahshua said this to his disciples before he had sealed the new covenant. Even at that time, it was expected that obedience must exceed that of the Pharisees.

Here is the example that I would have used:

(CLV) Hb 10:26
For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,

Mr. M · Jun 27, 2020

HARK! said:
What is this law?

It's only mentioned once, in the Bible, on one of Paul's letters.

Everything Yeshua taught is the Law of the Spirit!
John 6:63. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.
The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.

Luke 24:49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.

Israel=Power from/with/in God
Genesis 32:28. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel:
for as a prince hast thou power with God, and with men, and hast prevailed.

Studyman · Jun 27, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
What point then is Paul making here:
Romans 3:21. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed,
being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets.

Apart from what Law? God's Law is the definition of Righteousness, at least according to the Spirit of Christ in David.

Psalms 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

But a man who transgresses God's Commandments is unrighteous. So how can He be made Righteous again? His SIN must be cleansed, YES? So in the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, how was a man's sins cleansed? Was it not by Levites performing "Deeds of the Law" of atonement God gave to them? A Law Abraham didn't have as Levi was not even born yet? So Abraham was justified "Apart" from the Law of atonement given by God to Moses "til the Seed should Come"..

The implication that Paul is saying a sinner can become righteous "apart" from God and HIS Word's is not supported by the Holy Scriptures. Paul was speaking about Jews who didn't believe Jesus was the Prophesied "Lamb of God", who were still performing the "Deeds of the Law" of Atonement God gave to Moses on Israel's behalf.

Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, (not the blood of animals according to the atonement Laws given to Levi) to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? (Leviticval Priesthood atonement Laws given on Mt. Sinai) Nay: but by the law of faith. ("And showing Mercy to thousands who love Me and Keep My Commandments", as Abraham did.)

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

As Paul also says in Chapter 2.

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

What Law? Law of Work's (Levitical Priesthood "deeds of the Law of atonement) or Law of Faith? ( Believing in God enough to follow His instructions.)

Galatians 2:21. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law,
then Christ died in vain.

For if my sins are forgiven and I am made righteous by the Laws of Atonement given by God to Aaron and his sons, then Christ died in vain.

Romans 9:
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness,
have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained
to the law of righteousness.

Gentiles who believed in the Word of God unto repentance, attained righteousness, while Jews who sought righteousness by the "Deeds" of atonement laws did not.

32 Why?

Because they did not seek it by faith, (Belief, obedience) but as it were, by the works of the law.
For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
33 As it is written:
Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

But the Jews didn't believe on Him, that is why they were still relying on the Levitical Priesthood "Deeds" of atonement to cleanse them and make them righteous.

Hark!
Correct me if I am wrong, but I always see you quoting verses such as Galatians 3:24,
as if to suggest that I am going to study the Torah and conclude "now I know how to be righteous".
That is exactly what Paul is NOT saying. Could you say it better?

May I humbly suggest you consider Paul's own words about where the "Righteousness and His Wrath is to be found.

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Habakkuk is found in the Law and Prophets. The Gospel Paul is teaching comes from the Law and Prophets. The Righteousness of God is revealed in the Law and Prophets. Every example of true Faith given in the NT is revealed in the Law and Prophets.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

The Gospel of Christ is found in the Law and Prophets, at least according to Paul in his letter to the Romans. It's just that "many" when they heard the Gospel, didn't mix it with belief/Faith in the God who gave it.

as it is written;

Heb. 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Just as Hark posted, "If they don't believe Moses and the Prophets teaching the Gospel of Christ, neither will they be persuaded when the Christ Himself teaches the Gospel of Christ".

HARK! · Jun 28, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
Everything Yeshua taught is the Law of the Spirit!
Romans 6:63. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.
The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.

Yahshua taught YHWH's perfect Torah.

...and BTW, Yahshua didn't write Romans.

Mr. M · Jun 28, 2020

HARK! said:
Yahshua taught YHWH's perfect Torah.

...and BTW, Yahshua didn't write Romans.

Oops! thanks, my bad. He did say this:
John 6:63. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

HARK! · Jun 28, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
Oops! thanks, my bad. He did say this:
John 6:63. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

I love Yahshua's words.

(CLV) Jn 12:49
seeing that I speak not from Myself, but the Father Who sends Me, He has given Me the precept, what I may be saying and what I should be speaking.

(CLV) Jn 5:46
For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for the writes concerning Me.

(CLV) Jn 5:47
Now if you are not believing this writings, how shall you be believing My declarations?"

(CLV) Mt 13:41
The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness

Mr. M · Jan 27, 2022

BobRyan said:
Jesus said we would not hear though one rises from the dead (Christ) if we reject scripture.

No, the veil on men's hearts prevents this from being truth.
The sound teaching is that those who reject the truth of the resurrection
will not hear the scriptures.
1 Corinthians 15:
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you
that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that
he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Without the Spirit of the Risen Christ, you can "hear" all the scripture you want,
and it will be empty words. Worse still, they will be turned into something of our
own making, re-shaping God into our own image.
2 Corinthians 3:
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted
in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Mr. M · Jan 27, 2022

HARK! said:
(CLV) Lk 16:29
Yet Abraham is saying to him, `They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them!'

(CLV) Lk 16:30
Yet he said, `Not, father Abraham, but if someone should be going to them from the dead, they will be repenting.'

(CLV) Lk 16:31
Yet he said to him, `If Moses and the prophets they are not hearing, neither will they be persuaded if someone should be rising from among the dead.'"

He is your thread that I mentioned the other day in our discussion of
Luke 16 and the poor beggar.

BobRyan · Jan 27, 2022

Minister Monardo said:
No, the veil on men's hearts prevents this from being truth.
The sound teaching is that those who reject the truth of the resurrection
will not hear the scriptures. .

I don't see how that is possible since the only way we even know about the resurrection is scripture and a great many saints in Heb 11 - living in the OT -- did not know about the resurrection of Christ.

Mr. M · Jan 27, 2022

BobRyan said:
I don't see how that is possible since the only way we even know about the resurrection is scripture and a great many saints in Heb 11 - living in the OT -- did not know about the resurrection of Christ.

Exclusions don't make the rule, Bob.
Abraham, The prophets, David, etc...spoke by the Spirit of Christ in them. 1 Peter 1:11
This is why Yeshua could say:
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.
And David could write:
Psalms 16:10 For You will not leave my soul in Sheol,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. (Acts 2:25-28)

Otherwise, as Paul has clearly stated: "the veil remains over their heart in the reading of Moses".

Minister Monardo said:
Without the Spirit of the Risen Christ, you can "hear" all the scripture you want,
and it will be empty words. Worse still, they will be turned into something of our
own making, re-shaping God into our own image.
2 Corinthians 3:
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted
in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

BobRyan · Jan 27, 2022

Minister Monardo said:
Exclusions don't make the rule, Bob.

So are you saying that most people discover the fact of the resurrection of Christ by some means "other than" scripture?

Mr. M · Jan 27, 2022

BobRyan said:
So are you saying that most people discover the fact of the resurrection of Christ by some means "other than" scripture?

It is not a question of "discovering the fact of the resurrection", but of receiving the truth.
Many are taught by ministers, who are informed by the scriptures, but then doubt.
A knowledge of the books of Moses would do little to change their mind.
Paul is clear, we comprehend the scriptures by the Spirit given. You must be born from
above. Any doubts about the truth of the resurrection undermines faith.
Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your
heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Sounds necessary to me.

Gottservant · Jan 31, 2022

Bring the Law! Note the score!

Watch for more! Battle soar!

If We Won't Hear Moses; Will We Hear Messiah?

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