The pre-tribulation rapture lie [moved]

Jamdoc

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1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 talks of believers being 'caught up', 'harpazo', 'rapture' in Latin, to meet the Lord in the air.

One of the meanings of the word harpazo is to snatch up to keep from harm.

If the Harpazo does not keep the believer from the harm of 'Jacob's trouble', the 'Great tribulation', then what harm is it keeping us form I wonder? God Bless :)
From the wrath of God.
The key thing is understanding that the wrath of God is not the same as the tribulations. The tribulations are persecution caused by Men and the Antichrist, God is allowing for that evil to happen, God ordains evil for His purposes. But the 7 trumpets and 7 vials? That's our heavenly father pouring out His wrath on the world, our Father, who has adopted us, is not going to take out His fury on us (1 Thessalonians 5:9). So yes, I believe He will take us out of harm's way for that. But the tribulations, where it's wicked men persecuting? That's not on Him, that's on sinners that will be given their due punishment for the lives of the elect that they take.
Revelation 6:9-11
He will allow them to test us and persecute us, but He will have vengeance on them for our sake, and we will glorify Him for it.
 
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Jamdoc

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This gets so silly. Just sharing ok :) Its things like this "Revelation 7 never mentions heaven." Then where is this "standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands," <---please share where they are standing. Did God move His throne? You know John was caught up in the spirit. Walk in the spirit. Guessing the Spirit is more REAL then this flesh.. just tossing that out there. Two in the OT caught up. Paul caught up to paradise? I have yet to find ONE that knows exactly where Paradise is. I put that out there so you can say not in heaven! :) oK

Stephen stoned "And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God." Where is God? Seems Jesus is seated at the right hand. "Jesus who died-more than that, who was raised to life-is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us." Also "But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God." Col 3:1, Eph 1:20+.

Silly things.. And Christ said.. He will come back and get us so where He is we will be. "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am". So.. where is this? "In my Father's house are many mansions". So wheres the Fathers house?

Caught up (pre mid post) is not defined by your/my interpretation of Gods word. Its the world that Gods word "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.". For you and me we have to but ask. We were told by God what the sweet sweet Holy Spirit reveals. Not to some select few.

I have said this many times. A man I didn't listen to much if ever said "I'm post BUT if Jesus comes pre I am ready now". That man knew the word of God more then most and any one here. Yet was wise enough to know you can't prove pre mid post unless you take verses out of context. So when we post verses read above and below. And YES it is an escape. NO CLUE why some think they need to be tested verses ALL that came before them and are with the Father.

He will not go against your will. You can't even believe for His protection from a virus. You will never believe in whats coming. 144k? yes they will be protected. You can't even find the Church after Rev 4. 144k preaching the gospel. 2 witnesses preaching the Gospel. Angel preaching the Gospel. And the Church that is all over the world seems to have just vanished. ASK HIM!

People talk as if JESUS knows.. NO ONE since He left has got an answer. So pray seek ask HIM! About ALL of this. Ask about POST TRIB.. He will not answer. PRE TRIB.. He will not answer. Yet.. its so clearly written..

Just be ready now

A few thoughts on the fact that "the church" does not appear after the first few chapters. I see the Church in chapter 6, as you start seeing Martyrs under the altar in Heaven. Where do these martyrs come from if there's a pre tribulation rapture? The 144,000 are not preaching the gospel yet, they happen after the 6th seal, they're sealed before the 7 trumpets start sounding, so they're to preach the word and convert whoever they can while God is pouring out His wrath, because you are right, by the time the 144,000 are on the scene, I think that the elect (minus those 144,000 and the 2 witnesses) have been taken from the world to not be subject to the wrath of God.
However, up until the 6th seal, I believe we're here, so I believe we'll endure the tribulations but not the wrath of God.
In fact, thank you for pointing out something that I think confirms my timing more, I'm sure you do not agree, but I can now see that the sixth seal is released, the sun and moon darken, Jesus comes in the clouds, and the angels gather the elect, from the four winds, the dead in Christ shall rise first and we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord... and to replace us in our duties in spreading the gospel are the 144,000 sealed in His name.

If it was pre trib you'd have 0 people on the planet preaching the gospel for over 1290 days (Daniel 12:11), until the 144,000 arrive.
That'd be unthinkable.
There can't be "tribulation saints" if the gospel is not being preached by anyone during the Tribulation.
Romans 10:17
 
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nolidad

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This is where people simply fail to read the Promises of God to His people. Many verses say He will protect His own during the hard times ahead, but Revelation 12:14 tells us He will actually take His faithful people to a place of safety, [on earth] for the period of the Great Tribulation. The 1260 days, 42 months, or 3 1/2 years that the 'beast' has world control. Revelation 13:5-8
Then, at the Return of Jesus, He will send out His angels to gather those people to meet Him in the clouds, then to be His priests and co-rulers for the Millennium.

Keras the woman is ISrael not the church.

Jesus gave birth to the church, the church did not give birth to Jesus! But Israel gave birth to Jesus in that He was a Jew by physical nature!

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

And the place in the wilderness (and the mountains in Mattt. 24 and prepared in advance by God in REv. 12). It shall also be very defensible in Is. 33:13-16) and In Micah 2 God even names the place in Hebrew it is called Bozrah and in Greek it is called Petra!

Also it is noted that the Antichrist will conquer all but Edom Moab and the chief children of Ammon shall be kept from his hands. This is Jordan where Petra is!
 
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JacksBratt

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1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 talks of believers being 'caught up', 'harpazo', 'rapture' in Latin, to meet the Lord in the air.

One of the meanings of the word harpazo is to snatch up to keep from harm.

If the Harpazo does not keep the believer from the harm of 'Jacob's trouble', the 'Great tribulation', then what harm is it keeping us form I wonder? God Bless :)
I like your logic.

I still don't know what 2.2 billion Christians are going to do for the seven years... If they remain on earth.. That's a lot of heads to cut off.

Every Christian on earth living through the wrath of God...nothing to comfort each other with.
 
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JacksBratt

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Keras the woman is ISrael not the church.

Jesus gave birth to the church, the church did not give birth to Jesus! But Israel gave birth to Jesus in that He was a Jew by physical nature!

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

And the place in the wilderness (and the mountains in Mattt. 24 and prepared in advance by God in REv. 12). It shall also be very defensible in Is. 33:13-16) and In Micah 2 God even names the place in Hebrew it is called Bozrah and in Greek it is called Petra!

Also it is noted that the Antichrist will conquer all but Edom Moab and the chief children of Ammon shall be kept from his hands. This is Jordan where Petra is!
Thanks for that information.
 
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JacksBratt

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Basically, only after it all happens, will we know who was right. Or at least had some of it right!
However as I posted in #187, it will be AFTER the Lords Day of fiery wrath, that our eyes will be opened and ears unstopped.
THAT is what I concentrate on;
What the Lord will use on that Day.
What will be the effects of it?
What will cause the Lord to do it?
What happens to us Christians after it?

Those and many other questions, are answered by the ancient prophets.
All on many free short articles at; logostelos .info
I'm pretty sure that when we are raptured.. we will know a lot more than we know now...

Even those who have died, believers or non... they know way more than we do..

I'm talking about right now.. People, whatever their view.. state.. well God said that He would blind those from the truth.. but... it's never the person speaking who is blind. never.
 
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JacksBratt

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Yes @JacksBratt you made a very valid point - there is no one absolute view. Christians and theologians have different interpretations of rapture and end time from the same Scripture. Pre-tribulation rapture, mid- , post-, Amilennium ... no one theory can claim to be the right one. The events in Revelation might not be sequential, Daniel's writing is interpreted differently .... There is no one definitive view.

Personally, I believe in Amillenium, and we are living in the thousand years of Christ's reign. "Thousand years" can be 1000 , 2000, 3000 years. In past 2000 years, Christianity has spread across the earth and churches established. Christianity become a force to be reckoned with even though it still faces problems. We may interpret thouand year Christ reign to be a blissful state of total peace and tranquility but it may not be so, there can still be wars, conflicts and turblulance.
At the end, rapture will happen Christians will be taken up, Christ come again to judge and establish the new heaven and new earth.

In my subjective opinion, there will NOT be another specific tributlation aimed especially at Christians. That tribulation happened from apostles' generation and ended about 350 years later when Constantine stopped the official persecutions. That tribulation was not engineered by God, it was from opposition against Christ, and it was permitted by Him. God would not design a tribulation back then or now to test Christians. He knows we
already have our plates filled with enough problems.

Some Christians said that a great tribulation engineered by anti-Christ will happen but the question is how will it happen in reality? Can any groups be strong enough to take over the world and go against Christians? We live in a very pluralistic world now. Nations can resist being control. It is not easy to set out to persecute Christians or any religions systematically. Although there are pockets of persecutions against many religions, but human rights and governmemts do intervene to stop. I don't see how systematic perscution of CHristians can happen . Collectively, Christians are a force to be reckoned with .
Thanks for your view... very interesting..

As for "Can any groups be strong enough to take over the world and go against Christian"?

Nope... but... the church, and the Holy Spirit (AKA "the one who restrains") will be removed from the earth..

All that will be left is those that did not have faith in Christ.

Nobody to defeat......
 
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JulieB67

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I like your logic.

And yet you think it's perfectly logical to believe in mass destruction if a rapture were to happen. All the Christians that would be driving cars, mass pile ups on the interstates, airplanes dropping out of the skies, trains derailing and so on. That would be destruction on a global level with those people not having a chance to be saved during the tribulation and hearing the gospel that will be preached at that time. When I used to believe in a rapture, that's one of the things I never could wrap my head around.

God is long suffering and not willing anyone should perish. But you seem to think he will have no problem doing so. He wants people to repent until the very end. That's why the gospel will even be preached in the tribulation.
 
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Jamdoc

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Thanks for your view... very interesting..

As for "Can any groups be strong enough to take over the world and go against Christian"?

Nope... but... the church, and the Holy Spirit (AKA "the one who restrains") will be removed from the earth..

All that will be left is those that did not have faith in Christ.

Nobody to defeat......

Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:
If the saints are gone, and the 144,000 haven't come in yet (Revelation 7 and 14 are parallel chapters, the stuff that's going on in chapter 13 is also going on in chapter 6 most notably after the 4th and 5th seals, otherwise you have 2 groups of 144,000, but either way, you have martyred saints appearing in Heaven in Revelation 6:9-11, and the 144,000 don't show up until after the 6th seal), who is converting these so called "tribulation saints"? They have nobody to hear the gospel from.
 
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JulieB67

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and the Holy Spirit (AKA "the one who restrains") will be removed from the earth..

Do you really believe this even though Christ himself says otherwise?

Mark 13:11 "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought before-hand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy [Ghost] Spirit."

This is the very testimony taught in all 3 gospels as well as Revelation 12. Christ says this must happen and then the end will come.
 
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keras

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Keras the woman is ISrael not the church.

Jesus gave birth to the church, the church did not give birth to Jesus! But Israel gave birth to Jesus in that He was a Jew by physical nature!

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

And the place in the wilderness (and the mountains in Mattt. 24 and prepared in advance by God in REv. 12). It shall also be very defensible in Is. 33:13-16) and In Micah 2 God even names the place in Hebrew it is called Bozrah and in Greek it is called Petra!

Also it is noted that the Antichrist will conquer all but Edom Moab and the chief children of Ammon shall be kept from his hands. This is Jordan where Petra is!
Jesus is the true Israel, He is the direct descendant of Jacob and has the right to that name.
Jesus is the Olive Tree that we Christians are grafted onto and that makes us the Israelites of God. The Overcomers for Him.

The fact that Revelation 12 does refer to Christians is in verse 17, so your thinking the Jews are meant, is quite wrong.

As for what you think about Bozrah and Petra, i have been to both places in Jordan. They are quite separate locations and both small places that would not suit what you want them to do. Both within artillery shot of Jerusalem.

Talking with you is like going back to the 70s and 80s. The idea of Petra being the hiding place was touted then. It doesn't fit with any prophesies.
The places like Moab and Edom not being taken over by the Anti-Christ, Daniel 11:41, is because those areas are totally devastated. Isaiah 34:5-13
 
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Jamdoc

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Jesus is the true Israel, He is the direct descendant of Jacob and has the right to that name.
Jesus is the Olive Tree that we Christians are grafted onto and that makes us the Israelites of God. The Overcomers for Him.

The fact that Revelation 12 does refer to Christians is in verse 17, so your thinking the Jews are meant, is quite wrong.

As for the nonsense about Bozrah and Petra, i have been to both places in Jordan. They are quite separate locations and both small places that would not suit what you want them to do. Both within artillery shot of Jerusalem.
I think that the woman is the most difficult symbol in Revelation to interpret.
I would cautiously agree that my own interpretation of the symbol is that the woman represents Israel (for Jesus came from the tribe of Judah on His mother's side, hence the dragon being wroth with her seed).. but I would not extend that Christians are "Israel" in the context of being the woman in Revelation 12. I think Christians are "the remnant of her seed" in Revelation 12:17. I think the woman herself represents Israel as in blood descendants of Jacob. Think of it this way. Jesus said in Matthew 24:15 for those who are in Judea to flee into the wilderness when the abomination of desolation occurs. Not global, but those who are in Judea. Because the Jews will be the first target of persecution (it's not like there's been ANY history of that...), and the closer you are to Jerusalem (which will be the seat of the Antichrist's power) when it happens, the more danger you'll be in. When they can't wipe out the Jews, that's when Satan will turn his wrath on the "remnant of her seed", those who keep God's commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Christians)

So it's similar and the results are almost the same, but it's not exact to claim that the woman represents Israel and that the "true Israel" is Christians in that context.
 
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keras

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So it's similar and the results are almost the same, but it's not exact to claim that the woman represents Israel and that the "true Israel" is Christians in that context.
Maybe not exact, but in the majority, the Caucasian ancestry is Israelite.

God divided the ancient Israelites, 1 Kings 12:24. It was His Plan and the Prophets consistently maintain this separation, in about 160 verses.

There is a destiny for the House of Israel and another destiny for the House of Judah.
They were and still remain separate entities; Judah as the visible Jewish State of Israel plus those still in Diaspora of about 20 Million people and the Ten Northern tribes, still scattered among the nations, of innumerable peoples and in the main; the Christians of the world.

People say that Jewish Israelis can be reconstituted into a nation of faith. This idea is purely a tenet of the 'rapture to heaven' dispensationalists and is not found in the Bible.
Amos 2:4-5 tells of the fate of Judah, then: Amos 2:6-16, and all the rest of the Prophet Amos, is directed toward My people; Israel. Finishing with Amos 9:13-15, where he foretells the coming time that the Lord will restore His people; the true Israel and plant them again in their own Land.
Obviously, from this prophecy and many others, this cannot refer to the current Jewish State.

WE will be the people that God always wanted in His holy Land, WE will fulfil God's Promises to the Patriarchs, of their descendants occupying all the area from the Nile to the Euphrates and being His witnesses, Isaiah 43:8-13, John 15:27, and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16
 
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Jamdoc

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Maybe not exact, but in the majority, the Caucasian ancestry is Israelite.

God divided the ancient Israelites, 1 Kings 12:24. It was His Plan and the Prophets consistently maintain this separation, in about 160 verses.

There is a destiny for the House of Israel and another destiny for the House of Judah.
They were and still remain separate entities; Judah as the visible Jewish State of Israel plus those still in Diaspora of about 20 Million people and the Ten Northern tribes, still scattered among the nations, of innumerable peoples and in the main; the Christians of the world.

People say that Jewish Israelis can be reconstituted into a nation of faith. This idea is purely a tenet of the 'rapture to heaven' dispensationalists and is not found in the Bible.
Amos 2:4-5 tells of the fate of Judah, then: Amos 2:6-16, and all the rest of the Prophet Amos, is directed toward My people; Israel. Finishing with Amos 9:13-15, where he foretells the coming time that the Lord will restore His people; the true Israel and plant them again in their own Land.
Obviously, from this prophecy and many others, this cannot refer to the current Jewish State.

WE will be the people that God always wanted in His holy Land, WE will fulfil God's Promises to the Patriarchs, of their descendants occupying all the area from the Nile to the Euphrates and being His witnesses, Isaiah 43:8-13, John 15:27, and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16

I don't think Europeans trace their ancestry to any of the tribes of Israel, well, there are like Ashkenazi Jews and so on that are in Europe, but for most Caucasians, I've always thought that they trace their origins from Japheth, where Semitic people like Jews trace their origins from Shem (and most Asians are also from Shem), and Africans trace their origins from Ham.
Obviously could be wrong, and it's a little fuzzy since Ham, Shem, and Japheth were brothers afterall and their tribes were originally all clustered at the Tower of Babel.

but Christians being "Israel" in most contexts isn't genetic it's by virtue of adoption into the family of Jesus Christ, spiritual descendents if you will. I mean there are Christians of just about every ethnicity. (Maybe not the sentinelese or some of the Amazonian tribes and whatnot, but most places there's SOME Christians)
 
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keras

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but for most Caucasians, I've always thought that they trace their origins from Japheth,
Japeth and Shem were way back, our origins are from Jacob.
Caucasians originated from the Caucasus region. Exactly where the Northern tribes were exiled to.
A good historical proof of the Israelite ancestry of Scotland is in the Declaration of Arbroath. It says how the Scottish peoples migrated across Europe from Israel.

I fully agree that there are Christians in [most] every, race, nation and language. John sees them all in the holy Land, their true heritage, soon after the Sixth Seal has cleared and cleansed all that area. Deuteronomy 32:34-43
 
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JacksBratt

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Do you really believe this even though Christ himself says otherwise?

Mark 13:11 "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought before-hand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy [Ghost] Spirit."

This is the very testimony taught in all 3 gospels as well as Revelation 12. Christ says this must happen and then the end will come.
Get in line... There are 100's of people on both sides of this argument.. Using the same scripture with two or three or even more views.
 
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JacksBratt

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Revelation 13:7

If the saints are gone, and the 144,000 haven't come in yet (Revelation 7 and 14 are parallel chapters, the stuff that's going on in chapter 13 is also going on in chapter 6 most notably after the 4th and 5th seals, otherwise you have 2 groups of 144,000, but either way, you have martyred saints appearing in Heaven in Revelation 6:9-11, and the 144,000 don't show up until after the 6th seal), who is converting these so called "tribulation saints"? They have nobody to hear the gospel from.
The 144,000 are from the tribulation period.. Non messianic Jews... changing to believe in Christ.
 
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JacksBratt

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And yet you think it's perfectly logical to believe in mass destruction if a rapture were to happen. All the Christians that would be driving cars, mass pile ups on the interstates, airplanes dropping out of the skies, trains derailing and so on. That would be destruction on a global level with those people not having a chance to be saved during the tribulation and hearing the gospel that will be preached at that time. When I used to believe in a rapture, that's one of the things I never could wrap my head around.

God is long suffering and not willing anyone should perish. But you seem to think he will have no problem doing so. He wants people to repent until the very end. That's why the gospel will even be preached in the tribulation.
Glad you think that there are that many Christians at the wheel at one time..

Planes don't fall out of the sky.. they mostly need the pilots to take off and land... But.. that would be impressive to have that many planes with both pilot and co pilot as Christians...

Trains.. Also.. computerized.

But, it does make a good scare tactic until you see the truth and find it wouldn't happen to the extent portrayed.

Yes, people will be saved during the tribulation... But, IMO, all Christians of that very day... dead and alive.. will be taken.
 
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Jamdoc

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The 144,000 are from the tribulation period.. Non messianic Jews... changing to believe in Christ.
and who's converting them? I've always thought the purpose of the 144,000 was to replace the Christians in spreading the gospel.
 
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JacksBratt

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and who's converting them? I've always thought the purpose of the 144,000 was to replace the Christians in spreading the gospel.
Who converts anyone? Do you? Nope.... We can spread the word but only the Holy Spirit can seal the deal.

I believe that it is the events of the Rapture, the seven year deal and all the other events.. maybe even the appearance of the two witnesses..

Anyway.. God knows these 144,000 even now.. And, they will repent. They will be spared.. They will populate the earth in the 1000 year reign of Christ.
 
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