The pre-tribulation rapture lie [moved]

JacksBratt said:

Are you an educated theologian with years of seminary learning and diploma's? If not, then you are not going to convince me of anything. Because those people are debating it....

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And they will never come to the truth, because:
Jesus said; I thank You Father, for hiding these things from the wise and learned....Matthew 11:25
Paul said: It is prophesied: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and make nothing of cleverness ....God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish! 1 Corinthians 1:19-20
Have you ever tried to discuss the Prophetic Word with a theologian? I have and it is a hopeless task.
I seems that God will allow a few to understand, Daniel 12:10, those who have not been brainwashed by seminaries and have not been fooled by the unbiblical fables taught to most Church people.

Jamdoc said:

So I don't share the same concern for those who are pre wrath, mid trib, or post trib because I feel that they know what is coming and prepare themselves for it even though they may suffer they condition their faith to endure.
Pre trib is not conditioning their faith. It's like you have people who train for marathons (post trib), or a 10k (pre wrath, mid trib), and people who doin't train at all (pre trib) and then you're told you have to run a 5k. The people who trained for the longer distances will be fine, since they're conditioned for endurance, but the people who didn't train will struggle even with the shorter distance and may give up early. Now if the race is a marathon, the people who trained for a marathon will do best, the people who trained for a 10k will struggle, but because they have at least trained some most will make it to the finish line even if their time is horrible and they had to walk for part of the way, and the people who didn't train at all, they will not finish the race, the race itself may be a hazard to their health. The only way that those who don't train can do well is if there never is a race they're told they have to do.

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So, what are you doing to "train" for this epic time of suffering?

Look, we are to live our lives like we are going to live to be 100 and be ready, spiritually if it ends today..

I'm not worried either way. God has told us that He will not allow us to face any trouble that He will not give us sufficient ability to over come.

Ya, it's nice that you are trying to convince people that, even as Christians, you are going to face the worst time of epic catastrophic suffering on the entire surface of the earth.

I guess, the unbelievers are going to face hell on earth.. and... the Christians will too.. except they will have to do it while going without food, new clothing, shelter and running through woods and ducking for cover even if one of their family or friends walks by....

Or, they could just walk out, hands up, denounce Christ, get the mark and go to eternal damnation..

Or, they could just walk out, proclaim that Christ is King of Kings of all time... and kneel and lose their head.....

keras said:

And they will never come to the truth, because:
Jesus said; I thank You Father, for hiding these things from the wise and learned....Matthew 11:25

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So, which "wise and learned" is the truth hidden from? Those who believe in pre trib? OR Those that deny the idea of Pre Trib?

keras said:

Paul said: It is prophesied: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and make nothing of cleverness ....God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish! 1 Corinthians 1:19-20
Have you ever tried to discuss the Prophetic Word with a theologian? I have and it is a hopeless task.
I seems that God will allow a few to understand, Daniel 12:10, those who have not been brainwashed by seminaries and have not been fooled by the unbiblical fables taught to most Church people.

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There are theologians that don't believe in the pre trib.... so... guess we can now argue who God is hiding the truth from and who you believe are hopeless....

People always believe that the truth is hidden... but it's not them that are blind..

JacksBratt said:

So, what are you doing to "train" for this epic time of suffering?

Look, we are to live our lives like we are going to live to be 100 and be ready, spiritually if it ends today..

I'm not worried either way. God has told us that He will not allow us to face any trouble that He will not give us sufficient ability to over come.

Ya, it's nice that you are trying to convince people that, even as Christians, you are going to face the worst time of epic catastrophic suffering on the entire surface of the earth.

I guess, the unbelievers are going to face hell on earth.. and... the Christians will too.. except they will have to do it while going without food, new clothing, shelter and running through woods and ducking for cover even if one of their family or friends walks by....

Or, they could just walk out, hands up, denounce Christ, get the mark and go to eternal damnation..

Or, they could just walk out, proclaim that Christ is King of Kings of all time... and kneel and lose their head.....

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So if you're expecting to not experience the tribulation, and you were starving, being hunted down, exposed to the elements, how would your faith handle it? Would you feel betrayed because you placed your faith in never experiencing those things? Would you get angry at God for not having a pre trib rapture?

I for one believe it's been shortnened to a five month period for the mark of the beast period. That's how long the Locust Army has as noted in Revelation 9. Christ says he has shortnened it. It's written that Satan has great fury because he knows he has a short time. I don't think 3 and half years is a short time. And it fits with Noah -that was a five month period. And I think Satan/Antichristwill come in peacefully and with great prosperity. Revelation mentions looking like a lamb but spoke as a dragon.

Anti in the Greek means "instead of" he will be here instead of Christ. And the whole world will wonder after him because of the great miracles and wonders. To me the great danger of not being prepared is falling for the fake Christ. That's where the great falling away (apostasy) comes in. And it's God that sends that strong delusion because people would rather believe the lie. Paul says people will be thinking peace and safety and then bam destruction, God's wrath. Imagine the shock and suprise when the true Christ comes back and people will have worshipped Satan/AntiChrist thinking he was the true Christ. I think people that are expecting some evil looking monster are going to be deceived. Paul says he's disguised as an angel of light.

A five month period is enough time to prepare for food and to be delivered up if that's the case for some. Christ says not to premeditate because it will be the Holy Spirit that will speak through them because the gospel must be published to the nations and then the end will come. Common sense tells us that it will be the cloven tongue in Acts that will be used so everyone will hear the gospel in their own language before the end. But yes, that's Christ himself stating that the Holy Spirit will be here. The belief that the Holy Spirit will be removed is a tradition of man that's not biblical. It's Michael and his that are holding him back and after that battle Satan and his will be kicked out. Rejoicing in Heaven but woe to us on earth because of his fury that he has a short time. We also should not worry because God will take care of his own.

But you mainly pepare by studying the entire Word of God, studying the seals , etc (first seal is about Antichrist coming, that's how important it is) and Paul says we are to have the full gospel armour on so we can fight the fiery darts of Satan(ephes 6) that's how good he is. And he knows the bible better than a lot of Christians. Christ says that those that endure to the end, the same shall be saved. And he says in your patience, possess ye your souls. It's that important. Anyone that seeks to save his life, will lose it and vice versa.

Christ and Paul say beware so we are not deceived on this very subject. We are wait on the true Christ and not fall away to the fake Christ and Paul says having done all we must stand to face that evil day.

Jamdoc said:

So if you're expecting to not experience the tribulation, and you were starving, being hunted down, exposed to the elements, how would your faith handle it? Would you feel betrayed because you placed your faith in never experiencing those things? Would you get angry at God for not having a pre trib rapture?

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I have thought of how I would feel if the rapture did not happen before the tribulation..
I don't know of any time in my life when I have had the arrogance to be mad at God.
Why would I then?

I really have issue with people, especially Christians, who get mad at God...

As if they know better, they are suffering unfairly, they are going through times that they don't deserve or didn't get something that they prayed for, a job they thought they deserved, lost a child or a spouse...
Seriously, what did Christ go through for our salvation? What does God know and have in store for our life that we have the right to be angry?

So, no, I would not lose faith. There have been lots of serious bumps and curves and canyons in the road of my life and God has got me through..

I think it's a weak argument to say that those that believe in the rapture coming before the tribulation would lose faith if it didn't. It's another speculation.

Those that lose faith are those that would probably be left behind or just make it in under the wire anyway.

JacksBratt said:

So, which "wise and learned" is the truth hidden from? Those who believe in pre trib? OR Those that deny the idea of Pre Trib?

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Isaiah 29:9-12 puts it better; If you confuse yourself, you will stay confused......
In other words, if you choose to believe theories or doctrines that do not have proper Biblical support, then you will be locked into them.
We can surely see this principal in force with many people now!

JacksBratt said:

People always believe that the truth is hidden... but it's not them that are blind..

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Isaiah 42:19-20 Who is blind, but My servant, who is so deaf as the messenger that I sent. Who is so blind as the one who has My trust, so deaf as the servant of the Lord. You have seen much, but perceived little, your ears are open but you hear nothing.

Only AFTER the forthcoming Day of the Lords fiery wrath, will people finally understand Gods Plan for them:
Isaiah 43:8 Bring forth this people, a people whose eyes are blind, whose ears are deaf.

Isaiah 35:4-5 Be strong, fear not; the Lord comes to save you, with His vengeance and retribution. THEN the eyes of the blind will be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped.

Isaiah 42:18 You that are deaf; hear now, you that are blind; look and see!

Isaiah 29:18 & 24 On that Day, the deaf will hear and the blind will see.
Then the confused will gain understanding and the obstinate will take instruction.

Isaiah 32:3-4 Then those who see and hear will understand clearly, the impetuous mind will know and the stammering tongue will speak fluently and plainly.

JulieB67 said:

I for one believe it's been shortnened to a five month period for the mark of the beast period. That's how long the Locust Army has as noted in Revelation 9.

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What does that have to do with the "mark"? It will either be initiated before the desolation of the temple or at the same time... 3.5 years in.

JulieB67 said:

Christ says he has shortnened it.

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Christ shortened the time because..... if He didn't... not one thing would be alive on the earth.

JulieB67 said:

It's written that Satan has great fury because he knows he has a short time. I don't think 3 and half years is a short time.

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Satan's time is short... the same way that someone who is going to retire in a year is a "short timer". Satan's time left to deceive the world is coming to an end... Thus, his time is short.

JulieB67 said:

And it fits with Noah -that was a five month period. And I think Satan/Antichristwill come in peacefully and with great prosperity. Revelation mentions looking like a lamb but spoke as a dragon.

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What was the 5 months with Noah? He preached to the world for 100 years and was on the ark for a year.

JulieB67 said:

Anti in the Greek means "instead of" he will be here instead of Christ. And the whole world will wonder after him because of the great miracles and wonders. To me the great danger of not being prepared is falling for the fake Christ. That's where the great falling away (apostasy) comes in. And it's God that sends that strong delusion because people would rather believe the lie. Paul says people will be thinking peace and safety and then bam destruction, God's wrath. Imagine the shock and suprise when the true Christ comes back and people will have worshipped Satan/AntiChrist thinking he was the true Christ. I think people that are expecting some evil looking monster are going to be deceived. Paul says he's disguised as an angel of light.

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OK....

JulieB67 said:

A five month period is enough time to prepare for food and to be delivered up if that's the case for some.

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I don't follow here.

keras said:

Isaiah 29:9-12 puts it better; If you confuse yourself, you will stay confused......
In other words, if you choose to believe theories or doctrines that do not have proper Biblical support, then you will be locked into them.
We can surely see this principal in force with many people now!

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Yes... but which view is the one of the deceived.

JulieB67 said:

Isaiah 42:19-20 Who is blind, but My servant, who is so deaf as the messenger that I sent. Who is so blind as the one who has My trust, so deaf as the servant of the Lord. You have seen much, but perceived little, your ears are open but you hear nothing.

Only AFTER the forthcoming Day of the Lords fiery wrath, will people finally understand Gods Plan for them:
Isaiah 43:8 Bring forth this people, a people whose eyes are blind, whose ears are deaf.

Isaiah 35:4-5 Be strong, fear not; the Lord comes to save you, with His vengeance and retribution. THEN the eyes of the blind will be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped.

Isaiah 42:18 You that are deaf; hear now, you that are blind; look and see!

Isaiah 29:18 & 24 On that Day, the deaf will hear and the blind will see.
Then the confused will gain understanding and the obstinate will take instruction.

Isaiah 32:3-4 Then those who see and hear will understand clearly, the impetuous mind will know and the stammering tongue will speak fluently and plainly.

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Yep... and on and on....

Still... those that state these things are always talking about the people that see things different than they do.

The people preaching "Wake up, you are asleep" or "open your ears and eyes and see your error"

These are never deceived themselves..... They own truth.. They know all the answers.. They are "right" and anyone who disagrees.... is wrong, deceived, blind, asleep, deaf.... but no.. not themselves.

Look.... I'll say this one more time... It is a response to all future quotes for or against Pre trib....which I tend to believe...

We believe what we believe. We think that the others have the scriptures wrong. We use the same scripture to support our arguments. We use times and events to support it as well... We have personal views and ideas as to why our idea.. our view is the correct one.

But.... Theologians who study the bible for a living, to teach students, to write commentaries, to debate other theologians.... people with degrees and knowledge that far surpasses us.. Those that know Hebrew and Greek and grammar and ancient methods of text... all this..

And... they disagree..

So, state your view..

State your reasons..

But... don't present it as fact, an absolute, a view with no contest.... or claim that the other is a lie.... a deception...

Cause... you........ cannot.... say..... for... sure... as the educated are still arguing.

It's like trying to tell two experienced pilots flying a plane, in trouble...... how you think they should handle the situation....

JacksBratt said:

What was the 5 months with Noah? He preached to the world for 100 years and was on the ark for a year.

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I'm talking about the how long the waters flooded the earth. Very symbolic imo of the flood that Satan brings,

Revelation 12:15 "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood."

Revelation 12:16 "And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth."

JacksBratt said:

I don't follow here.

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This is how the Saints will overcome Satan and his flood of lies. By publishing the Word of God. We must prepare for this possiblity that we might be delivered up.

Mark 13:9 "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake,, for a testimony against them."

Mark 13:10 "And the gospel must first be published among all nations."

Mark 13:11 "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost [Spirit]."

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Revelation 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

JulieB67 said:

I'm talking about the how long the waters flooded the earth. Very symbolic imo of the flood that Satan brings,

Revelation 12:15 "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood."

Revelation 12:16 "And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth."

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Noah's flood was a year in total... from entering the ark to leaving.

JulieB67 said:

This is how the Saints will overcome Satan and his flood of lies. By publishing the Word of God. We must prepare for this possiblity that we might be delivered up.

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What do you mean by publishing the Word of God?
The bible is the number one seller every year.. to the extent that they don't even list it as such anymore.

It is also in hundreds of languages.. Just curious as to what you mean by "publishing" the Word of God".

JacksBratt said:

I have thought of how I would feel if the rapture did not happen before the tribulation..
I don't know of any time in my life when I have had the arrogance to be mad at God.
Why would I then?

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Because it could feel like a broken promise. I can understand why someone would get angry or even lose faith if they feel that God has broken a promise because they put their faith in a pre trib rapture which they thought was a promise.

I really have issue with people, especially Christians, who get mad at God...

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Christians are human, humans get mad, even at God. The anger can be misplaced or for the wrong reason, but we're not perfect. Forgive those who get mad at God, because God forgives us for it.

As if they know better, they are suffering unfairly, they are going through times that they don't deserve or didn't get something that they prayed for, a job they thought they deserved, lost a child or a spouse...
Seriously, what did Christ go through for our salvation? What does God know and have in store for our life that we have the right to be angry?

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Imperfection and a lack of infinite perspective can cause a lot of emotions. When Job was suffering while he refused to get mad at God he cursed the day he was born, he was upset and angry, but from God's perspective he shouldn't have been since God intended to reward him for his patience. You can understand both situations and both perspectives right? We're short sighted. God is long sighted.

So, no, I would not lose faith. There have been lots of serious bumps and curves and canyons in the road of my life and God has got me through..

I think it's a weak argument to say that those that believe in the rapture coming before the tribulation would lose faith if it didn't. It's another speculation.

Those that lose faith are those that would probably be left behind or just make it in under the wire anyway.

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That's good but I can understand how some people would lose faith if they feel a promise has been broken. God doesn't break promises, but His timing may not be convenient for us.

Jamdoc said:

God doesn't break promises, but His timing may not be convenient for us.

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There you have it... God doesn't break promises... Some may get mad for a time.. then realize their misplaced blame....

Others.. are angry at God for life times... they are just deceived.

But, no, I wouldn't get mad at God.

JacksBratt said:

There you have it... God doesn't break promises... Some may get mad for a time.. then realize their misplaced blame....

Others.. are angry at God for life times... they are just deceived.

But, no, I wouldn't get mad at God.

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It's good that you're willing to be flexible on it and change eschatology view if things don't go according to beliefs. I'm perfectly happy if people spiritually prepare like it's post trib but hope for pre trib.
Aside from the possibility that a person might lose faith if pre trib doesn't happen, it's really not a big issue it's interpretation of scripture that is fairly difficult. A lot of times people miss prophecy that happens in some books that has already been fulfilled when they first read it for instance.
But I don't want to see pre trib be wrong and have people fall away into disbelief, because it is a rather blurry area of eschatology, same as the millennium.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 talks of believers being 'caught up', 'harpazo', 'rapture' in Latin, to meet the Lord in the air.

One of the meanings of the word harpazo is to snatch up to keep from harm.

If the Harpazo does not keep the believer from the harm of 'Jacob's trouble', the 'Great tribulation', then what harm is it keeping us form I wonder? God Bless

This gets so silly. Just sharing ok Its things like this "Revelation 7 never mentions heaven." Then where is this "standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands," <---please share where they are standing. Did God move His throne? You know John was caught up in the spirit. Walk in the spirit. Guessing the Spirit is more REAL then this flesh.. just tossing that out there. Two in the OT caught up. Paul caught up to paradise? I have yet to find ONE that knows exactly where Paradise is. I put that out there so you can say not in heaven! oK

Stephen stoned "And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God." Where is God? Seems Jesus is seated at the right hand. "Jesus who died-more than that, who was raised to life-is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us." Also "But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God." Col 3:1, Eph 1:20+.

Silly things.. And Christ said.. He will come back and get us so where He is we will be. "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am". So.. where is this? "In my Father's house are many mansions". So wheres the Fathers house?

Caught up (pre mid post) is not defined by your/my interpretation of Gods word. Its the world that Gods word "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.". For you and me we have to but ask. We were told by God what the sweet sweet Holy Spirit reveals. Not to some select few.

I have said this many times. A man I didn't listen to much if ever said "I'm post BUT if Jesus comes pre I am ready now". That man knew the word of God more then most and any one here. Yet was wise enough to know you can't prove pre mid post unless you take verses out of context. So when we post verses read above and below. And YES it is an escape. NO CLUE why some think they need to be tested verses ALL that came before them and are with the Father.

He will not go against your will. You can't even believe for His protection from a virus. You will never believe in whats coming. 144k? yes they will be protected. You can't even find the Church after Rev 4. 144k preaching the gospel. 2 witnesses preaching the Gospel. Angel preaching the Gospel. And the Church that is all over the world seems to have just vanished. ASK HIM!

People talk as if JESUS knows.. NO ONE since He left has got an answer. So pray seek ask HIM! About ALL of this. Ask about POST TRIB.. He will not answer. PRE TRIB.. He will not answer. Yet.. its so clearly written..

Just be ready now

JacksBratt said:

Yes... but which view is the one of the deceived.

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Basically, only after it all happens, will we know who was right. Or at least had some of it right!
However as I posted in #187, it will be AFTER the Lords Day of fiery wrath, that our eyes will be opened and ears unstopped.
THAT is what I concentrate on;
What the Lord will use on that Day.
What will be the effects of it?
What will cause the Lord to do it?
What happens to us Christians after it?

Those and many other questions, are answered by the ancient prophets.
All on many free short articles at; logostelos .info

JacksBratt said:

Noah's flood was a year in total... from entering the ark to leaving.

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Again, I'm talking about the water in general,

Genesis 7:24 "And the water prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days."

JulieB67 said:

Mark 13:10 "And the gospel must first be published among all nations."

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JacksBratt said:

It is also in hundreds of languages.. Just curious as to what you mean by "publishing" the Word of God".

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To make known, preach, proclaim the gospel. Yes, the Bible has been book published all over the world but sadly it still won't stop the whole world wondering after Satan/Antichrist. Some people own it but have never even read it in it's entirety which is also a shame.

But this gospel that is preached that Christ teaches - even the gainsayer won't be able to deny or resist. That's because it's not the person, it's the Holy Spirit that speaks through them. Leaving no room for interpretation like everyone is trying to do these days.

Luke 21:12 "But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake."

Luke 21:13 "And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

Luke 21:14 "Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:"

Luke 21:15 "For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist."


Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 all teach that this must happen and Revelation is a second witness to the fact that the blood of the lamb and their testimony will be what's used to overcome Satan and his.

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

JacksBratt said:

Look.... I'll say this one more time... It is a response to all future quotes for or against Pre trib....which I tend to believe...

We believe what we believe. We think that the others have the scriptures wrong. We use the same scripture to support our arguments. We use times and events to support it as well... We have personal views and ideas as to why our idea.. our view is the correct one.

But.... Theologians who study the bible for a living, to teach students, to write commentaries, to debate other theologians.... people with degrees and knowledge that far surpasses us.. Those that know Hebrew and Greek and grammar and ancient methods of text... all this..

And... they disagree..

So, state your view..

State your reasons..

But... don't present it as fact, an absolute, a view with no contest.... or claim that the other is a lie.... a deception...

Cause... you........ cannot.... say..... for... sure... as the educated are still arguing.

It's like trying to tell two experienced pilots flying a plane, in trouble...... how you think they should handle the situation....

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Yes @JacksBratt you made a very valid point - there is no one absolute view. Christians and theologians have different interpretations of rapture and end time from the same Scripture. Pre-tribulation rapture, mid- , post-, Amilennium ... no one theory can claim to be the right one. The events in Revelation might not be sequential, Daniel's writing is interpreted differently .... There is no one definitive view.

Personally, I believe in Amillenium, and we are living in the thousand years of Christ's reign. "Thousand years" can be 1000 , 2000, 3000 years. In past 2000 years, Christianity has spread across the earth and churches established. Christianity become a force to be reckoned with even though it still faces problems. We may interpret thouand year Christ reign to be a blissful state of total peace and tranquility but it may not be so, there can still be wars, conflicts and turblulance.
At the end, rapture will happen Christians will be taken up, Christ come again to judge and establish the new heaven and new earth.

In my subjective opinion, there will NOT be another specific tributlation aimed especially at Christians. That tribulation happened from apostles' generation and ended about 350 years later when Constantine stopped the official persecutions. That tribulation was not engineered by God, it was from opposition against Christ, and it was permitted by Him. God would not design a tribulation back then or now to test Christians. He knows we
already have our plates filled with enough problems.

Some Christians said that a great tribulation engineered by anti-Christ will happen but the question is how will it happen in reality? Can any groups be strong enough to take over the world and go against Christians? We live in a very pluralistic world now. Nations can resist being control. It is not easy to set out to persecute Christians or any religions systematically. Although there are pockets of persecutions against many religions, but human rights and governmemts do intervene to stop. I don't see how systematic perscution of CHristians can happen . Collectively, Christians are a force to be reckoned with .