Poll on salvation. Eternal security (osas) vs. works and grace are both required.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 25, 2020

I said:
"Do you have any grasp at all of what "possession" means?

A person can possess certain qualities. A person can possess any number of abstract things. None of which any reasonable perosn would think as being "an object"."

Michael Collum said:
I'd imagine you must be really young or something.

You have quite an imagination. I've been reading through the NT MONTHY for almost 2 decades, and I'm no where near 20 y/o.

It's pretty obvious we don't see it the same way, why bother trying to convince me that the sky is purple?

There's that pesky imagination of yours again. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I am providing truth. It's just up to you whether you're open minded enough to realize the truth when it is presented to you.

What you believe is between you and the Lord.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 25, 2020

Phil W said:
How can one say they believe in God, or in His Son Jesus Christ, and then go out and offend Him with sin?

Because they are human, of course.

But you just aren't willing to believe what the Bible says, which I've shown you over and over.

It just shows they believe in something besides the Creator of all things.
Their idolatry is manifested by their substituting a sin ahead of God.

The first generation of the Exodus crowd were quite guilty of idolatry. Yet, Paul makes clear that they were believers in the Messiah, but very displeasing to God.

1 Cor 10-
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.
11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

If you want to argue AGAINST v.3 and v.4 and claim they weren't saved, that's on you.

And v.6 and v.11 prove that they were saved. Otherwise, how can actions of unbelievers be "examples" for believers? Not possible. Like trying to compare apples to oranges.

No idolaters will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor 6:9)

True, but not why you might think so. To "inherit the kingdom" is a reference to reward for faithful obedient believers.

It has nothing to do with getting into heaven. It's about what is IN heaven.

Radagast · Jun 25, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
So, don't tell me this man spent years holding crusades and presenting the gospel to thousands and thousands of people all the while NOT believing what he preached over and over.

No, that's exactly what I'm saying.

1 John 2:19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

FreeGrace2 said:
Nonsense. Chuck is in heaven now.

No, he probably isn't, sadly.

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. (Hebrews 6:4-6)

But my caveat on the poll in the O.P. relates to the fact that we do need to have an explanation for the many people who seem to be good Christians (even pastors and evangelists) but later reveal themselves to be unbelievers.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 25, 2020

I said:
"So, don't tell me this man spent years holding crusades and presenting the gospel to thousands and thousands of people all the while NOT believing what he preached over and over."

Radagast said:
No, that's exactly what I'm saying.

No, not even close. It would be totally irrational to claim a man who spent over a decade preaching the gospel did so without believing it.

But you are free to your own fantasies.

1 John 2:19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Didn't you read Acts 15? Believers who claimed a person had to be circumcized to be saved. I highly recommend that you at least read the truth.

No, he probably isn't, sadly.

You have NO basis for your opinion on where Chuck templeton is right now.

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. (Hebrews 6:4-6)

I suppose you presume that "restore to repentance" means to get resaved. lol

But my caveat on the poll in the O.P. relates to the fact that we do need to have an explanation for the many people who seem to be good Christians (even pastors and evangelists) but later reveal themselves to be unbelievers.

No, it is only your own presumptive opinion that believers who later "fall away" as Jesus said, weren't actually believers.

But Jesus plainly SAID there are believers who DO fall away.

So, your argument is with Jesus, not me. I'm just pointing out the truth that Jesus spoke.

What you do with it is your own business.

Phil W · Jun 25, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Because they are human, of course.

"Only human" is an argument bred by those unreborn of God's seed.
Those born of His seed are far more than "only human".
We have the Spirit of God in us.

But you just aren't willing to believe what the Bible says, which I've shown you over and over.

As I too have proven my points with scripture, as you have tried with your choice of scripture, let us see what the fruit of each's belief is, shall we?
My scriptures show how to live without sin, and yours show how to live with sin.
Which ones are approved by God?

The first generation of the Exodus crowd were quite guilty of idolatry. Yet, Paul makes clear that they were believers in the Messiah, but very displeasing to God.
1 Cor 10-
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.
11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.
If you want to argue AGAINST v.3 and v.4 and claim they weren't saved, that's on you.

You can't use verses 3 & 4 without realizing verse 5 says they were all killed in the desert for their sins instead of attaining the promised land.
They were our example of unbelievers-sinners.
Unbelievers.

And v.6 and v.11 prove that they were saved. Otherwise, how can actions of unbelievers be "examples" for believers? Not possible. Like trying to compare apples to oranges.

Your version of "believer" is a sinner who perished in the wilderness.
The real "believers" went into the land flowing with milk and honey.

True, but not why you might think so. To "inherit the kingdom" is a reference to reward for faithful obedient believers.
It has nothing to do with getting into heaven. It's about what is IN heaven.

As "the kingdom of God" is listed as the inheritance of those who don't commit idolatry, in 1 Cor 6:9, it is foolishness to imagine it is anything after actually being there.[/QUOTE]

FreeGrace2 · Jun 25, 2020

Phil W said:
"Only human" is an argument bred by those unreborn of God's seed.

Scripture certainly refutes your ideas.

Those born of His seed are far more than "only human".

Right. The new nature cannot sin. But you continue to deny the human nature that all believers still have, and struggle with. Including Paul. But you simply deny all that.

We have the Spirit of God in us.

But you can't even explain how to become filled with the Spirit. In fact, you have confused that with being indwelt with the Spirit.

So there's no way to explain the truth to you since your mind is already made up.

As I too have proven my points with scripture, as you have tried with your choice of scripture, let us see what the fruit of each's belief is, shall we?

I never count on one's "fruit". There are many unbelievers who are quite religious and even quite moral. But they are still going to hell. So "fruit" isn't the issue in salvation.

My scriptures show how to live without sin, and yours show how to live with sin.

No they don't. You can't even explain how to be filled with the Spirit, because you don't even understand what that is.

Which ones are approved by God?

Believers in Christ.

You can't use verses 3 & 4 without realizing verse 5 says they were all killed in the desert for their sins instead of attaining the promised land.

Of course I can. And did. And v.5 is the result of their sins; God's divine discipline of physical death. Paul explained divine discipline in 1 Cor 11:30; weakness, sickness and even physical death.

One thing is sure; none of that crowd died of natural causes. So don't bother me with any "everyone dies" routine.

They were our example of unbelievers-sinners.
Unbelievers.

How do you not see how ridiculous this is? Why do you think comparing apples to oranges is rational? The ONLY REASON that crowd were our examples is because they were also believers.

Your version of "believer" is a sinner who perished in the wilderness.

It's not my version. Even the apostle Paul admitted to Timothy that he was the worst of sinners, all in the present tense, which you are simply blind to.

"I AM the worst" is what he said. If he had written "I WAS the worst", you would have a case.

The real "believers" went into the land flowing with milk and honey.

No, they were the SECOND generation, those who were under the age of 20 when they left Egypt. The entire first generation failed to get in, inlcluding Moses!!

So, explain Heb 3:19, of which Moses was involved. Moses didn't get to enter the land because of unbelief, yet he appeared when Jesus was transfigured.

As "the kingdom of God" is listed as the inheritance of those who don't commit idolatry, in 1 Cor 6:9, it is foolishness to imagine it is anything after actually being there.

It is foolishness to so poorly misread Scripture. 1 Cor 6:9, Gal 5:19 and Eph 5:5 are all about the same thing. 1 Cor 6 and Gal 5 both have "will not inherit the kingdom", while Eph 5:5 says "will have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

The 3 passages are parallel, meaning they are about the same thing. And Eph 5:5 indicates what will NOT be IN the kingdom; their inheritance.

What it does NOT say is that such a believer will NOT be in the kingdom. What will be missing is their inheritance.

But so many people today totally misunderstand is 'inheritance'. There are 2 kinds.

The first is related to being a child of God. This is noted in Rom 8:17a
"Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God"

This means that all of God's children will enter the kingdom. Based on being one of God's children.

The second is related to an inheritance that is earned. This is noted in Rom 8:17b
"and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory."

To be a "co-heir with Christ" is an inheritance that is earned. Notice the conditional clause: "IF indeed we share in His sufferings". The result is what is earned: "in order that we may also share in His glory".

When Christ returns at the Second Advent and sets up His Millennial Kingdom on earth, that is "His glory", without a doubt.

And those who have "shared in His sufferings" will also "share in His glory" by co-reigning with Christ.

Paul also phrased it another way, in 2 Tim 2:12-
"if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;"

So, these 2 verses are exactly parallel and say the same thing.

Those who "endure" are those who "share in His sufferings". They will "share in His glory" by "reigning with Him".

Those who don't "endure" are those who haven't "shared in His sufferings" and the result is they will be "denied reigning with Christ".

Gregory Thompson · Jun 25, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
I said:
"Do you have any grasp at all of what "possession" means?

A person can possess certain qualities. A person can possess any number of abstract things. None of which any reasonable perosn would think as being "an object"."

You have quite an imagination. I've been reading through the NT MONTHY for almost 2 decades, and I'm no where near 20 y/o.

There's that pesky imagination of yours again. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I am providing truth. It's just up to you whether you're open minded enough to realize the truth when it is presented to you.

What you believe is between you and the Lord.

I guess I'll pray for you then.

Not sure why you're so covetous to control how I think or something.

Phil W · Jun 25, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Scripture certainly refutes your ideas.

Only because you make them do so.
To you, having been reborn of God's seed makes no difference in a man's life.
That is unscriptural.

Right. The new nature cannot sin. But you continue to deny the human nature that all believers still have, and struggle with. Including Paul. But you simply deny all that.

As an old nature is part of the "old things" that have "passed away" in 2 Cor 5:17, it is ludicrous to imagine it still remains in those with a divine nature.
Your idea of retaining anything of the old man counters Christ's prophetic words in Matt 9:17... "Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved."
You put a new Spirit into an old man, and he shall perish.

But you can't even explain how to become filled with the Spirit. In fact, you have confused that with being indwelt with the Spirit.

Just as Peter said in Acts 2:38..."Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Turn from sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins and you will receive the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

I never count on one's "fruit". There are many unbelievers who are quite religious and even quite moral. But they are still going to hell. So "fruit" isn't the issue in salvation.

It is because you deny Jesus' words in Matt 7:15-20 about false prophets that you cannot "count on fruit".

FreeGrace2 · Jun 26, 2020

Michael Collum said:
I guess I'll pray for you then.

Not sure why you're so covetous to control how I think or something.

Did you not read anything I posted? Then why did you even respond to it?

I said:
"Do you have any grasp at all of what "possession" means?

A person can possess certain qualities. A person can possess any number of abstract things. None of which any reasonable person would think as being "an object"."

You have quite an imagination. I've been reading through the NT MONTHY for almost 2 decades, and I'm no where near 20 y/o.

There's that pesky imagination of yours again. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I am providing truth. It's just up to you whether you're open minded enough to realize the truth when it is presented to you.

What you believe is between you and the Lord.

So, please explain why you think that I'm "so covetous of controlling how you think" after I said PLAINLY that "I'm NOT trying to convince you of ANYTHING". Then I said "It's up to YOU whether you're open minded enough to realize the truth".

Your comments are totally irrelevant to what I posted.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 26, 2020

I said:
"Scripture certainly refutes your ideas."

Phil W said:
Only because you make them do so.

I can't "make" the Scriptures do anything. I can only point out what they say.

To you, having been reborn of God's seed makes no difference in a man's life.
That is unscriptural.

You need to read my posts BEFORE you make such irresponsible and incorrect comments.

A believer has been BORN AGAIN. 1 Peter 1:23 They have the INDWELLING Holy Spirit. Gal 3:2,5 They have a NEW NATURE. 2 Cor 5:17 They possess the gift of ETERNAL LIFE. John 5:24, 6:47 They become a CHILD OF GOD. John 1:12, Gal 3:26

But, you have repeatedly denied that you still possess your human nature, which is corrupt. I've shown you Paul's own testimony about his own struggle with that nature, but you just close your eyes to the truth. Romans 7 proves your opinions wrong.

So does 1 Tim 1:15 where Paul told Timothy that he was the worst of sinners, and he wrote that in the present tense, which you've also closed your eyes to.

As an old nature is part of the "old things" that have "passed away" in 2 Cor 5:17, it is ludicrous to imagine it still remains in those with a divine nature.

Wrong again. The new nature is in addition to the original one. And every believer faces the choice of which nature to obey. That's what Romans 6 is all about.

Paul's writings refute your opinions.

Your idea of retaining anything of the old man counters Christ's prophetic words in Matt 9:17... "Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved."

Wrong again. That would mean Paul countered Christ's prophetic words. That is ludicrous.

You put a new Spirit into an old man, and he shall perish.

OK, show me any verse that supports your opinion.

Just as Peter said in Acts 2:38..."Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Turn from sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins and you will receive the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

Go ahead and keep using a verse that applied ONLY to those who physically participated in Christ's crucifixion. If that verse applies to believers today, why didn't Paul say anything about repentance in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31?

Oh, right. You don't have an answer.

It is because you deny Jesus' words in Matt 7:15-20 about false prophets that you cannot "count on fruit".

It is you who deny the truth of Scripture. I haven't denied anything Jesus said.

Let's look at that passage:

15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

The red words are the subject of the passage; false prophets. Jesus wasn't comparing or contrasting true and false prophets at all. He didn't even mention true prophets.

You would fit into the false prophet by your false teaching that believers no longer have a human nature and therefore no longer sin.

The proof of your false teaching is 1 John 1:8. John said anyone who claims to be without sin is self deceived and has no truth in them.

He literally said "if we say". But by including himself, as an apostle, he was including any believer. You "claim" to be "walking in the light", but by your own words, you have demonstrated that you do not believe the words of Scripture.

Those who claim to be without sin are self deceived and have no truth in them.

Romans 6 reveals the choice believers have between presenting themselves to their sinful nature or their new nature.

Romans 7 reveals Paul's own struggle with his sinful nature. It was written in the present tense, and there is no support for claiming he was using the "historical present". There is no evidence from the context that he was speaking of any "former time", which is the usual "explanation" of the text.

1 Tim 1:15 is an admission that Paul considered himself to be a sinner as he wrote to Timothy.

Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

You can deny whatever you want. But the words are clear. If your theory were correct, he would have written "of whom I WAS the worst". But he didn't.

All of these totally destroy your opinions and false teaching.

BBAS 64 · Jun 26, 2020

Gregorikos said:
There are a MULTITUDE of verses that state a Christian can apostatize, such as John 15:6, Romans 11:22, Colossians 1:22-23, 1 Timothy 1:19-20, 2 Timothy 2:12, Hebrews 3:14-15, 2 Peter 2:1, 20-21.
But the clearest of all is Hebrews 6:4-6.

Of this passage the New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge says: The following five-fold description of the true believer is scarcely if ever equaled elsewhere in the pages of Scripture as to detail or extent, and most certainly can apply only to persons who were once genuinely saved. If such a description were to occur in any other context but this, there would be no question as to its application to true believers. This text furnishes a near-perfect measure of one’s theological system: if you must work strenuously to avoid the clear implication of the text in an effort to prove these were not true believers, your system stands convicted as incorrect at this point, and the effort to explain this passage away is the hallmark of those who are guilty of mishandling the word of God in order to maintain their preconceived doctrinal system (NTSK) Hebrews 6:4

And yes, I also believe John 10:28. No one can snatch me out of the Lord's hand. But I can leave him if I choose to.

Good Day, Gregorikos

Kind of a strange view on your part of Jn 10.. just coming off the whole discourse of the Sheep and the Shepard. Do you understand the ultimate responsibility the Shepard has for His Sheep, and the utter dependency the sheep have on their Shepard.

A good Shepard never looses his sheep ... Never!

Lets look at Jn were the issue is addressed in a wider context:

Jn 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jesus the Good Shepard does not loose that which the Father has given him. Now there instances were the Sheep would wonder off, but their life was in the hand of the Shepard and he knows that is his sole highest responsibility.

You know that Staff the comforts us with the hook.... he calls his sheep back and puts forth the staff that draws them into the flock and endures their safety they are his sheep.

My Dad called this a bit of an attitude adjustment, and the Good Shepard is always 100 % effective in his care of and the tending of His flock.

You may stray for a moment silly sheep... then comes the hook.

In Him,

Bill

Gregorikos · Jun 26, 2020

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Gregorikos

Kind of a strange view on your part of Jn 10.. just coming off the whole discourse of the Sheep and the Shepard. Do you understand the ultimate responsibility the Shepard has for His Sheep, and the utter dependency the sheep have on their Shepard.

A good Shepard never looses his sheep ... Never!

Lets look at Jn were the issue is addressed in a wider context:

Jn 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jesus the Good Shepard does not loose that which the Father has given him. Now there instances were the Sheep would wonder off, but their life was in the hand of the Shepard and he knows that is his sole highest responsibility.

You know that Staff the comforts us with the hook.... he calls his sheep back and puts forth the staff that draws them into the flock and endures their safety they are his sheep.

My Dad called this a bit of an attitude adjustment, and the Good Shepard is always 100 % effective in his care of and the tending of His flock.

You may stray for a moment silly sheep... then comes the hook.

In Him,

Bill

There are limits to any analogy. For instance, a real shepherd also encourages a ram to impregnate as many ewes in the flock as possible. Our shepherd doesn't do that.

Nor does he hold us against our will with "irresistable grace." So any of the scriptures that speak of our security must be informed by the other Scriptures that warn us to be faithful and endure to the end. In the end I must conclude that it is impossible to accidentally "lose" my salvation, but I could still resist the Holy Spirit and walk away from him.

Blessings,

Greg

Gregory Thompson · Jun 26, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Did you not read anything I posted? Then why did you even respond to it?

I said:
"Do you have any grasp at all of what "possession" means?

A person can possess certain qualities. A person can possess any number of abstract things. None of which any reasonable person would think as being "an object"."

You have quite an imagination. I've been reading through the NT MONTHY for almost 2 decades, and I'm no where near 20 y/o.

There's that pesky imagination of yours again. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I am providing truth. It's just up to you whether you're open minded enough to realize the truth when it is presented to you.

What you believe is between you and the Lord.

So, please explain why you think that I'm "so covetous of controlling how you think" after I said PLAINLY that "I'm NOT trying to convince you of ANYTHING". Then I said "It's up to YOU whether you're open minded enough to realize the truth".

Your comments are totally irrelevant to what I posted.

Since you seem to not be able to take a hint, I'm kind of done with this conversation. Apologies if I didn't make that clear.

Blood Bought 1953 · Jun 26, 2020

Gregorikos said:
There are limits to any analogy. For instance, a real shepherd also encourages a ram to impregnate as many ewes in the flock as possible. Our shepherd doesn't do that.

Nor does he hold us against our will with "irresistable grace." So any of the scriptures that speak of our security must be informed by the other Scriptures that warn us to be faithful and endure to the end. In the end I must conclude that it is impossible to accidentally "lose" my salvation, but I could still resist the Holy Spirit and walk away from him.

Blessings,

Greg

If one is Saved ,Jesus said that no Future event could take you from His Fathers grip and that person will NEVER come into Condemnation...get Saved by RESTING in Paul’s Gospel found in 1Cor 15:1-4......Faith Plus Nothing.....

Charis55 · Jun 26, 2020

Phil W said:
Why not simply repent of sin and be an ex-sinner instead of recrucifying the Lord over and over again for ongoing sins? (Heb 6:6)

Hebrews 6:6 does not mean what you think it means. Hebrews was written to Jews who were not sure that Jesus was their full sacrifice their full salvation. Judas would fit this scripture, people can have head knowledge but still not have put their faith in Christ. These Jews wanted to go back to temple sacrifice and if they put their trust back in that old system then there is no longer a sacrifice for them since God will only accept His Sons sacrifice. As to your other point. Remorse before God is great but repent is to change your mind not to say your sorry. I have changed my mind I am righteous in God by Christ Jesus.

Phil W said:
God made a way to cure that situation of the "fleshly" body...kill it, as per Rom 6:6.

You do not understand what Paul is saying in Romans ch 5-8. I can kill nothing only the power of the grace of God can crucify it. I’ve pointed this out to you several times along with other members, we have two nature’s.

Phil W said:
If you won't answer my questions, I gotta think you can't differentiate between the Law's works FOR salvation and the deeds done by the faithful to manifest their faith.

That’s because there is no laws to be worked for salvation except for faith in the finished work on the cross. All God requires of us is to believe He is who He says He is. That’s it, God by His power does the rest.

Phil W said:
Show me your faith by your sins and I will show you my faith by my obedience to the Judge.

I see your play on James 2 here. How can I show faith by sins I know what you’re trying to do but it just goes to show further you do not understand what Jesus really has done for you. Trust me your obedience is not impressing God in the slightest bit.

Phil W said:
As the "letter of the Law" isn't in question here, to suppose, and correctly, surprises me that we agree that those who "walk in faith" can keep it.
It is actually the Law of Christ...ie., love God above all things and love your neighbor as yourself that those who walk in faith do perfectly.

I keep it by what Christ has done for me I am accounted as righteous by His obedience transferred to me that is what God will accept. My fruit comes from God not my own self effort.

My original statement below

The freedom and victory comes once you know there is no law to break because His righteousness rests eternally on you. Once the law is gone and grace is established then and only then will you have victory over sin.

Your statement below

Phil W said:
I agree again, that there is no victory over sin by those who don't have the righteousness of God by grace.
Sinners are bereft of grace.

This is the problem you think righteousness is based on your own performance and whether or not you can still sin. Whether or not you are aware of this I don’t know but YOU STILL SIN.

My statement below

Victory over sin is not self will or striving to discipline yourself, victory over sin is it does not even tempt you. The only way this comes is to know that you are fully forgiven and eternally secure a keeper of the law by His righteousness.

Your statement

Phil W said:
Wow, I thought this would be confrontational, but we keep agreeing.
Your point agrees with Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.", and with 1 John 3:9..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

We are not in agreement my friend, I do not sin because God can not judge my sin past present and future because He has already done that on the cross in His Son. We are in a life long process, I will sin until the day I die in my flesh but those sins have already been dealt with at the cross. You on the other hand believe not only that you can but according to you are sinless in your flesh right now. You preach salvation by works I preach Jesus has made you righteous by what He has done and nothing of myself.

Phil W said:
I hope your not confusing man made "rules" for God's, or Jesus' commands.
This verse popped into my mind..."But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government." (2 Peter 2:10)

No I am not but I let you keep guessing on my intentions behind my statement.

Phil W said:
As Paul lamented..."O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" (Rom 7:24), but already addressed in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."...it is evident that Paul was writing from a perspective of his prior to faith life.
The old nature was killed with the fleshly mind.
This point was prophetically spoken of by Jesus when He made reference to new wine being put into new bottles.
The Holy Ghost will not reside in an old "bottle", (body).
It must be the new creatures "body".

I’ve already told you what romans ch 6-8 are meaning so no point in repeating myself. My only suggestion to you is try reading it a little slower. Paul is talking about the present and what believers struggle with. The wineskin bottles actually are referring to what you are doing. We are new vessels and the old system of justification by works is the old, don’t mix them. Same thing with the hot and cold. Cold being justification by works and hot justification by Christ which makes one righteous. Pick one and God can work with that don’t mix the two though, that is what you are doing.

My statement below

Those in Christ do not have sin on them BECAUSE OF CHRIST!

Your statement below

Phil W said:
Amen to that.
And thanks be to God for His Son.

I stated this wrong we do not have sin in us by what Christ has done.

Phil W said:
Who is in command of your skin?
It cannot lie or steal without the mind's consent.
Fact is, it is the vessel of God's Spirit for those with faith in Christ, and isn't "our" flesh anymore.
Like Paul notes in Gal 2:20..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
That kinda leaves the faithless to wonder why they keep committing sins.

Two nature’s. Sanctification. Righteousness. Your assumption that OSAS people are in love with sin is a huge road block to understanding what we are saying. The inner man is transformed instantly the flesh is to be trained and it is Gods grace and love that does this work. Your flesh is not saved so stop acting like you have your glorified body.

Phil W said:
More that just "crowns" are at stake.
Jesus said..."Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:22-23)
Those seemingly faithful people were still servants of sin instead of servants of God.
They allowed their fleshly minds to "run the show".
Their flesh hadn't been destroyed at their conversion.
And the manifester of that lack of faith was iniquity (sin).

These people were never saved. They called Him Lord because He is standing right in front of them so obviously the creator of all things would be recognized. Key word here I NEVER knew you. They never belonged to Him and not because they didn’t have perfect flesh like you but because they never put their faith in Jesus.

Phil W said:
How can a man manifest faith in Christ without manifesting Christ?
You can call obedience "works", but it seems you are unaware that the "works" railed on by Paul were the "works" of the Mosaic covenant,, ie., circumcision, dietary laws, feast keeping etc.
Not loving one's neighbor as one's self.

Man manifests Christ because it is Christ who has changed them, all spiritual transformations. Your obedience by works will never bring about righteousness. I’m aware of the difference in the laws. We live because He first loved us. I would imagine that those in your life you are demanding perfection from seeing how you have placed that standard over yourself. This is not how God loves us. To love your neighbor is to love them in grace and forgiveness, not demands unto perfection as you seem to see the Father requiring of you.

Phil W said:
That POV runs counter to scripture, especially 2 Cor 5:17..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."...except the old nature?
Again I reference Jesus' words about new wine into new bottles. (Matt 9:17)
God won't put His Spirit into an "old man"

Yes we are new creatures but the flesh fights the new man and must be trained. The old nature (flesh) will never be saved. Jesus puts His spirit in any man who places their faith in Him.

Phil W said:
Your welcome.
I'm glad to see that you can understand that as nothing can separate you from God, neither can anything cause you to commit a sin that will separate you from God.

Nothing can separate you from God because a believer has been made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. Not because you never sin.

Phil W said:
We all have the choice as to whom we will serve.
That responsibility doesn't evaporate with conversion, but is furnished to us by Christ, by the grace of God.
Don't make it sound so horribly anti-faithfulness.

Law produces fear and you have stated that you are not even sure if you will make it to eternity. Grace produces peace and security. You are only hurting yourself with this theology you want so you can feel as you have earned something.

My statement below

You said you are no longer a servant of sin because of study, repentance, the Holy Spirit, baptism, His word and tongues, all these things are absolutely wonderful but are not why you are no longer a servant of sin. You are no longer a servant of sin because Christ has taken your punishment and has made you the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus by His blood and nothing else.

Your statement below

Phil W said:
can't separate the one from the other.
They are one.
And they are all wonderful !

None of these things as wonderful as they are can even compare to the saving righteous blood of Jesus. Why do you need repentance (change your mind) or as however you see it if you walk perfectly? What are you repenting for?

My statement below

Now I’m curious about something do you personally ever sin?

Your statement Below

Phil W said:
No, but if you want more info on this life in Christ you will need to PM me.
The rules of this Christian site forbid writing of perfect obedience to their God.

You NEVER sin and you have PERFECT obedience to God. Ya sure buddy whatever you say.

You are fixated on yourself and your abilities to perform. I am fixated on Jesus and what He has done for me, His righteousness. I have no righteousness of my own to offer. All glory to God and Him alone.

Life is busy and time is precious so forgive me if I don’t respond to you in a timely manner.

Gregorikos · Jun 26, 2020

Blood Bought 1953 said:
If one is Saved ,Jesus said that no Future event could take you from His Fathers grip and that person will NEVER come into Condemnation...

You've rewritten it to what you wish he had actually said. But that wasn't it.

Phil W · Jun 26, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
."I can't "make" the Scriptures do anything. I can only point out what they say.

Sure you can, and do with your POV that those who don't "follow Him" have eternal life. (John 10:27-28)

Phil W · Jun 27, 2020

Charis55 said:
Hebrews 6:6 does not mean what you think it means. Hebrews was written to Jews who were not sure that Jesus was their full sacrifice their full salvation. Judas would fit this scripture, people can have head knowledge but still not have put their faith in Christ. These Jews wanted to go back to temple sacrifice and if they put their trust back in that old system then there is no longer a sacrifice for them since God will only accept His Sons sacrifice. As to your other point. Remorse before God is great but repent is to change your mind not to say your sorry. I have changed my mind I am righteous in God by Christ Jesus.

I'm surprised you think God has one set of ideas for Jews but another set for Gentiles.
Heb 6:6 applies to both.

You do not understand what Paul is saying in Romans ch 5-8. I can kill nothing only the power of the grace of God can crucify it. I’ve pointed this out to you several times along with other members, we have two nature’s.

Let's see the fruit pf our two POVs...
Mine has allowed the crucifixion, burial of my old self, (Gal 5:24) and being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
Yours...continued sin and the defense thereof.

That’s because there is no laws to be worked for salvation except for faith in the finished work on the cross. All God requires of us is to believe He is who He says He is. That’s it, God by His power does the rest.

Paul wrote of the Judaizer's attempts to incorporate circumcision into Christianity in more than on letter.
That was one of the "works" he despised. (With dietary laws and feast keeping and sabbath keeping etc.)
Not obedience to God.

I see your play on James 2 here. How can I show faith by sins I know what you’re trying to do but it just goes to show further you do not understand what Jesus really has done for you. Trust me your obedience is not impressing God in the slightest bit.

But your disobedience does?
We will be judged for the deeds done in our vessels, and some will be cast into the lake of fire.
Remember..."...depart from me ye that work iniquity".? (Matt 7:23)

This is the problem you think righteousness is based on your own performance and whether or not you can still sin. Whether or not you are aware of this I don’t know but YOU STILL SIN.

My righteous is based on being righteous.
And it is a gift from God.
There is no righteous among the unrighteous.

My statement below
Victory over sin is not self will or striving to discipline yourself, victory over sin is it does not even tempt you. The only way this comes is to know that you are fully forgiven and eternally secure a keeper of the law by His righteousness.

Reciprocally, a lack of victory over sin must be not fully forgiven or eternally secure, or certainly not a keeper of the law of His righteousness.

We are not in agreement my friend, I do not sin because God can not judge my sin past present and future because He has already done that on the cross in His Son. We are in a life long process, I will sin until the day I die in my flesh but those sins have already been dealt with at the cross. You on the other hand believe not only that you can but according to you are sinless in your flesh right now. You preach salvation by works I preach Jesus has made you righteous by what He has done and nothing of myself.

It isn't "my" flesh.
It is His.
Like Paul wrote..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal 2:20)
"Die in your flesh" today !!
As Paul wrote after describing how to do it, "For he that is dead is freed from sin" in Rom 6:7.
Those crucified with Christ are dead and buried.
New creatures have been "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life".

Two nature’s. Sanctification. Righteousness. Your assumption that OSAS people are in love with sin is a huge road block to understanding what we are saying. The inner man is transformed instantly the flesh is to be trained and it is Gods grace and love that does this work. Your flesh is not saved so stop acting like you have your glorified body.

You will never cause me to believe my "skin" can cause me to sin.
The "inner man" has both hands on the steering wheel.
If something besides "you" is causing "you" to sin, it isn't of God.

These people were never saved. They called Him Lord because He is standing right in front of them so obviously the creator of all things would be recognized. Key word here I NEVER knew you. They never belonged to Him and not because they didn’t have perfect flesh like you but because they never put their faith in Jesus.

It is because, as written, they wore still committing sins-iniquity while posing as Christians.

Man manifests Christ because it is Christ who has changed them, all spiritual transformations. Your obedience by works will never bring about righteousness. I’m aware of the difference in the laws. We live because He first loved us. I would imagine that those in your life you are demanding perfection from seeing how you have placed that standard over yourself. This is not how God loves us. To love your neighbor is to love them in grace and forgiveness, not demands unto perfection as you seem to see the Father requiring of you.

What obedience by "works" are you writing about?
As Christ has changed me, why didn't He change you?
It isn't those I fellowship with who demand perfection, it is God who said..."Be ye holy for I am holy".

Yes we are new creatures but the flesh fights the new man and must be trained. The old nature (flesh) will never be saved. Jesus puts His spirit in any man who places their faith in Him.

The "old man" was killed at its crucifixion with Christ. (Rom 6:6)

Nothing can separate you from God because a believer has been made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. Not because you never sin.

There are no righteous sinners.

Law produces fear and you have stated that you are not even sure if you will make it to eternity. Grace produces peace and security. You are only hurting yourself with this theology you want so you can feel as you have earned something.

Grace produces the ability to serve God and not serve sin.
We can only serve one master. (Matt 6:24)

My statement below
You said you are no longer a servant of sin because of study, repentance, the Holy Spirit, baptism, His word and tongues, all these things are absolutely wonderful but are not why you are no longer a servant of sin. You are no longer a servant of sin because Christ has taken your punishment and has made you the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus by His blood and nothing else.

Then why are you still a servant of sin?

None of these things as wonderful as they are can even compare to the saving righteous blood of Jesus. Why do you need repentance (change your mind) or as however you see it if you walk perfectly? What are you repenting for?

My original repentance was my "turn from" sin.
Once is enough if it is real and not a lie to God.
We can't forge a relationship with God that is based on a lie.

You NEVER sin and you have PERFECT obedience to God. Ya sure buddy whatever you say.
You are fixated on yourself and your abilities to perform. I am fixated on Jesus and what He has done for me, His righteousness. I have no righteousness of my own to offer. All glory to God and Him alone.

If I am so fixated on myself, why am I here trying to get you to forsake the darkness and walk in the light?

Blood Bought 1953 · Jun 27, 2020

Phil W, post: My original repentance was my "turn from" sin.

Show me anywhere in the KJV where it says “ repent from sins to be saved” and I will give you $ 1000 dollars....good luck....

Blood Bought 1953 · Jun 27, 2020

Charis55 said:
Hebrews 6:6 does not mean what you think it means. Hebrews was written to Jews who were not sure that Jesus was their full sacrifice their full salvation. Judas would fit this scripture, people can have head knowledge but still not have put their faith in Christ. These Jews wanted to go back to temple sacrifice and if they put their trust back in that old system then there is no longer a sacrifice for them since God will only accept His Sons sacrifice. As to your other point. Remorse before God is great but repent is to change your mind not to say your sorry. I have changed my mind I am righteous in God by Christ Jesus.

You do not understand what Paul is saying in Romans ch 5-8. I can kill nothing only the power of the grace of God can crucify it. I’ve pointed this out to you several times along with other members, we have two nature’s.

That’s because there is no laws to be worked for salvation except for faith in the finished work on the cross. All God requires of us is to believe He is who He says He is. That’s it, God by His power does the rest.

I see your play on James 2 here. How can I show faith by sins I know what you’re trying to do but it just goes to show further you do not understand what Jesus really has done for you. Trust me your obedience is not impressing God in the slightest bit.

I keep it by what Christ has done for me I am accounted as righteous by His obedience transferred to me that is what God will accept. My fruit comes from God not my own self effort.

My original statement below

The freedom and victory comes once you know there is no law to break because His righteousness rests eternally on you. Once the law is gone and grace is established then and only then will you have victory over sin.

Your statement below

This is the problem you think righteousness is based on your own performance and whether or not you can still sin. Whether or not you are aware of this I don’t know but YOU STILL SIN.

My statement below

Victory over sin is not self will or striving to discipline yourself, victory over sin is it does not even tempt you. The only way this comes is to know that you are fully forgiven and eternally secure a keeper of the law by His righteousness.

Your statement

We are not in agreement my friend, I do not sin because God can not judge my sin past present and future because He has already done that on the cross in His Son. We are in a life long process, I will sin until the day I die in my flesh but those sins have already been dealt with at the cross. You on the other hand believe not only that you can but according to you are sinless in your flesh right now. You preach salvation by works I preach Jesus has made you righteous by what He has done and nothing of myself.

No I am not but I let you keep guessing on my intentions behind my statement.

I’ve already told you what romans ch 6-8 are meaning so no point in repeating myself. My only suggestion to you is try reading it a little slower. Paul is talking about the present and what believers struggle with. The wineskin bottles actually are referring to what you are doing. We are new vessels and the old system of justification by works is the old, don’t mix them. Same thing with the hot and cold. Cold being justification by works and hot justification by Christ which makes one righteous. Pick one and God can work with that don’t mix the two though, that is what you are doing.

My statement below

Those in Christ do not have sin on them BECAUSE OF CHRIST!

Your statement below

I stated this wrong we do not have sin in us by what Christ has done.

Two nature’s. Sanctification. Righteousness. Your assumption that OSAS people are in love with sin is a huge road block to understanding what we are saying. The inner man is transformed instantly the flesh is to be trained and it is Gods grace and love that does this work. Your flesh is not saved so stop acting like you have your glorified body.

These people were never saved. They called Him Lord because He is standing right in front of them so obviously the creator of all things would be recognized. Key word here I NEVER knew you. They never belonged to Him and not because they didn’t have perfect flesh like you but because they never put their faith in Jesus.

Man manifests Christ because it is Christ who has changed them, all spiritual transformations. Your obedience by works will never bring about righteousness. I’m aware of the difference in the laws. We live because He first loved us. I would imagine that those in your life you are demanding perfection from seeing how you have placed that standard over yourself. This is not how God loves us. To love your neighbor is to love them in grace and forgiveness, not demands unto perfection as you seem to see the Father requiring of you.

Yes we are new creatures but the flesh fights the new man and must be trained. The old nature (flesh) will never be saved. Jesus puts His spirit in any man who places their faith in Him.

Nothing can separate you from God because a believer has been made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. Not because you never sin.

Law produces fear and you have stated that you are not even sure if you will make it to eternity. Grace produces peace and security. You are only hurting yourself with this theology you want so you can feel as you have earned something.

My statement below

You said you are no longer a servant of sin because of study, repentance, the Holy Spirit, baptism, His word and tongues, all these things are absolutely wonderful but are not why you are no longer a servant of sin. You are no longer a servant of sin because Christ has taken your punishment and has made you the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus by His blood and nothing else.

Your statement below

None of these things as wonderful as they are can even compare to the saving righteous blood of Jesus. Why do you need repentance (change your mind) or as however you see it if you walk perfectly? What are you repenting for?

My statement below

Now I’m curious about something do you personally ever sin?

Your statement Below

You NEVER sin and you have PERFECT obedience to God. Ya sure buddy whatever you say.

You are fixated on yourself and your abilities to perform. I am fixated on Jesus and what He has done for me, His righteousness. I have no righteousness of my own to offer. All glory to God and Him alone.

Life is busy and time is precious so forgive me if I don’t respond to you in a timely manner.

Brilliant Post.......thanks....

Poll on salvation. Eternal security (osas) vs. works and grace are both required.

Which view of salvation is biblically correct.

OSAS you can never loose your salvation, no matter what you are eternally secure.

We are saved by grace but must walk righteously or are in jeopardy of loosing our salvation.

I have a different view on salvation. (please explain)

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