No he was not an Idolator. Because he was not bowing down before the Ark for any other reasons than to humble himself and to wait for the presence of the Lord which would dwell there to speak with Israel. It was not that the presence of the Lord was always there but it would come down to dwell there when the Lord would speak with Israel. This is something that cannot be said about any of the things you are trying to use this passage for justification to bow before and worship. Because the Lord does not come down to dwell in or upon those images or pictures as he did the Ark, because he never said he would do anything of the sort. What he does say is that he will dwell within each of us. It seems you have not yet understood what the bible is saying on this matter brother.
Your definition of the Second Commandment renders him an idolater, regardless your point is irrelevant. He bows down to the Ark before God even came down to dwell in it, and he didn’t even know God came down until he spoke to him, so your argument that he wasn’t venerating the Ark itself fails.
Or bowed before/to, again bowed before/to is the second half of it which you do in fact do. So you are breaking this command of God since he says either or when talking about worship or bowing before graven images(or even both). So you picked on of them to do, which is still a breaking of the commandment. Christ is the perfect image of the father, but you do not even know what Christ looked like but rather you bow before images that look nothing like him since they all vary wildly in what they look like. If it were necessary for or right for us to make images of him then those images would be uniform without variation in the way/image of how they looked in regards to how he looked on earth as a Hebrew from one of the Twelve tribes. He was not venerating the ark in regards to bowing or worship it, he was bowing before the ark to humble himself and wait for the presence of the Lord to show up and speak with him as the Lord promised he would in exodus. That the pattern of what was made on earth for the earthly temple had to be exact in all likeness of that which was in heaven means that he Lord revealed exactly how every part was to look, that it doesn't describe it in every minute detail to us doesn't do so to those fashioning the snake and other images. And if this were the case about images of Christ then there would only be one exact depiction and not thousands of variations. The second commandment teaches that we do not bow before any image or anything on heaven or earth and that we must worship any image of anything on heaven or earth. Joshua bowed before the Ark of God to wait for the presence of the Lord to descend upon it and to humble himself as he waited. No contradiction just facts.
The Israelites weren’t told what kind of serpent the Brass Serpent had to be before they made it either, your argument of we don’t know how Christ looked like or what type of man he was, therefore we can’t make any images of him is a non sequitur fallacy. The Cherubs in the Temple and the Cherubs on the Ark didn’t look the same exactly, so again this is a non sequitur. No one is saying Joshua is worshipping the Ark, you need to stop the strawman arguments. The passage doesn’t say he was waiting for the presence of the Lord that’s what your reading into it to justify Iconoclasm, Joshua didn’t know the Lord was even going to appear up until the time he actually did, he was aimlessly praying before it due to the Israelite defeat at the hand of the Canaanites that had happened earlier due to their transgressions against the Lord. If there are image sources being venerated, then your Iconoclastic position contains a huge contradiction.
I do in fact as they are not bowing down to the ark or to any other image but rather to the Glory of the Lord in the same manner Joshua did as he waited for the Glory of God to appear. No Idolatry in either case. What you see as bowing before an ark is in fact Joshua bowing down to humble himself as he waits for the Lord to come down upon the Ark.
Numbers 20:6
6And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto them.
To say the exact same thing for a umpteenth time, the Second commandment teaches that we are not to make any image in the likeness of anything on heaven or on earth to bow down to it or worship it. Those are the two parts of that commandment to not do to images, one or both of which you are clearly doing. Neither of which is shown in either of the passages you quoted. Don't worry brother, the definition given from the bible will not change and my ability to quote that definition over again will not diminish.
Exodus 20:
4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Joshua 7:6 has Joshua bowing face down to the Ark, not to the glory of God, unless the Glory of God was already there while Joshua was bowing to the Ark, so your position simply fails by a simple reading of the passages. I thought the Lord rebuked Joshua for bowing down to the Ark, why are you changing your position to Joshua being humble in waiting for the Lord to appear. Previously you argued that because the Lord didn’t commend or praise Joshua and because of the Second Commandment it would make it idolatry, that was literally what you said:
I didn't say he did, what I did say was that the Lord did not commend him for worshiping him in this way but rather told him to get up and asked why he was even laying there in the first place since there was much that needed done. Again there was no praise or command for this manner of worship, that being the case all that remains is the command against such practices.
I quoted Numbers 20:6 to disprove that argument from silence you made. Also as I said Joshua 7:6 has Joshua bowing before the Ark itself, there’s no mention in it of God’s glory at the specific time here bowed to it, hence your argument fails.
You literally changed your argument and your literally trying to reconstruct the the Second commanded to forbid images that are bowed to specifically so that you can make your case and make your Iconocalsm consistent, “the thou shall not bow to them nor serve them” is not dependent on the first commandment which says not to make any image of anything on heaven on Earth, the second clause to not bow to them isn’t dependent on the first clause of the commandment which is to not make any graven images at all, the second clause is simply an additional warning not to serve or bow to graven images so if you were consistent in your Iconoclastic interpretation of the Second Commandment, then even photographs would come under the condemnation of the Second Commandment and the Old Testament would become inconsistent as we do see images being used in worship numerous times in the Old Testament. You previously said all images are idolatry, your now saying that only images that are bowed to or served as idolatry, so yes you have changed your Iconoclasm so that it can appear consistent, yes your quite right the definition given from the Bible won’t change so your still stuck with the fact that God ends up commanding the making of images and the veneration of certain images and statues, so either God contradicted himself, or not all religous imagery is condemned and the veneration of images isn’t what the Second Commandment is talking about, and that’s obvious given your own definition of what the Second Commandment is:
This is all in the context of changing the image of God to that which is corruptible to be worshiped, both in the context of Pagan God's and to make images of the Lord himself to worship them. That is why he said changed the image of God to something else, not simply making no gods.
It means that he speaks form atop the ark. All images made
to be bowed before/to or worshiped are idolatry again that is the definition given by the Lord. The ark was not made to bowed to, the ark was made for the presence of the Lord to descend upon. Whose presence we bowed to, not the ark but the Glory of God that was literally upon it. God commanded the Snake to be made after the pattern that was in heaven(
Hebrews 8:5) that is why the command was given and not for the purpose of bowing before it OR worshiping it. I previously said all images are Idolatry if they are being bowed to or worshiped, I have not changed my argument it remains the same. So if an image is made for a purpose other than to be bowed to/before or worshiped then there is no command against it as the two parts of the second commandment were not to bow to them/before or worship/serve them. No, because an image does not have the Spirit of the Lord in them when we fashion them with out hands. Only this physical Body contains the spirit of God as it is his temple on earth when we die we give up the Spirit and await the Resurrection either first or second on the last day. So to make a statue to someone would not have the Spirit of God in them thus rendering your argument moot, it then goes back to you simply making an image to bow to/before or worship(which second half you deny but first remains true). All images no, all images made to be bowed to/before or worshiped/served yes. The images you make to be bowed to, yes they are idolatry as they break the Lord's very specific commandment. Well the Lord is dwelling within us now, but we do not worship or bow to each other as we each are simply servants of God and not the Master. We are no greater than the angels who we are also not to bow to or worship(
Revelation 22:8-9) again refuting the argument of Saint worship/veneration and statue making to bow to. Also the only men serving him in heaven at this time are the twenty four elders, no other person will enter into the third part of heaven until the first resurrection at Christ's return, until then all those who die sleep in the grave.
It doesn’t say he spoke from atop the Ark, the passages have him speaking from the Ark, but it doesn’t matter anyways. Actually no, if your consistent in your Iconocalsm, then the Second Commandment would forbid all images, the second clause of the Second Commandment isn’t dependent of the first clause so your argument is simply wrong and erroneous based on a plain reading of the Second Commandment, so that would include ever image in the world if your consistent in your Iconoclasm which is impossible both from a Biblical perspective as we have seen and from a logical perspective. Joshua 7:6 has Joshua bow to the Ark before the presence of the Lord descended upon it, so yes the Ark was bowed down to and people did venerate it. The icons of the Saints are made after the pattern of those in heaven, like I said Iconocalsm isn’t a defendable position from a Biblical perspective. The brass serpent made by the hands of the Israelites didn’t have any spirit in it either, but like you said it represented a real reality in heaven and that was enough cause to make it, the Images of the Saints likewise are representations of a real reality in heaven, icons are a window to heaven, so your argument still is moot. You also misquote Revelation 22:8-9 to attempt to show that the veneration of created beings is idolatry, your making a strawman argument, John didn’t merely bow down to the Angel, he tried to worship it which was why he was rebuked, not merely for bowing down, on the contrary scripture has numerous instances of honor being given to men or creatures by bowing or by prostration in a sense of veneration, ur not worship:
Now Joseph was the governor of the land, the person who sold grain to all its people. So when Joseph's brothers arrived, they bowed down to him with their faces to the ground.
Genesis 42:6
The company of the prophets from Jericho, who were watching, said, "The spirit of Elijah is resting on Elisha." And they went to meet him and bowed to the ground before him.
2 Kings 2:15
Paul likewise tells us to “give honor where honor is due:”
Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
Romans 13:7
It seems you hold to the false doctrine of Soul Sleep, well the Bible makes it clear that everyone that dies especially believers are both conscious and alive with God:
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Revelation 6:9-10
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and
I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received
his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4
Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried to the Lord, “O Lord my God, let this child’s soul come into him again.” And the Lord hearkened to the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
1 Kings 17:21-22
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
John 11:26
