20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

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DavidPT

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Does that sound like the entire world is destroyed in an instant to you? That Jesus will return, kill a bunch of wicked people, and carrion feeders feast on the corpses? That right there disagrees with this single cataclysmic event of Jesus returning to earth and instantly everything is destroyed as in 2 Peter 3:10.

It is utterly ridiculous, if as Amils claim, the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames during the 2nd coming, and that Revelation 19 depicts no such thing happening at the time, then Revelation 19 using imagery of feasting birds to describe this event. And not only that, why does Christ even need to slay anyone in Matthew 19:21? Shouldn't they all already be dead from the flames engulfing the planet at the time? Even if the feasting birds are not meaning in the literal sense, though I tend to think it is, but if it wasn't, and that the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames at the time, no one in their right mind would be using imagery of feasting birds to try and describe this event.
 
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sovereigngrace

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It is utterly ridiculous, if as Amils claim, the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames during the 2nd coming, and that Revelation 19 depicts no such thing happening at the time, then Revelation 19 using imagery of feasting birds to describe this event. And not only that, why does Christ even need to slay anyone in Matthew 19:21? Shouldn't they all already be dead from the flames engulfing the planet at the time? Even if the feasting birds are not meaning in the literal sense, though I tend to think it is, but if it wasn't, and that the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames at the time, no one in their right mind would be using imagery of feasting birds to try and describe this event.

Sadly, your MO over the years is to rebut an Amil argument with a Premil understanding of a particular Scripture/matter. Here you apply your literalists mindset to blatantly figurative language in order to question Amil. This doesn't work.

Revelation 19:17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.”

The “fowls” that “fly in the midst of heaven” are commanded to prepare for a supper – the dead carcasses of the wicked that are about to be destroyed by the Lord.

So, what are the fowls in this reading symbolic of?

The word rendered “fowls” in this reading is the word orneois in the original, which simply means birds. The word comes up three times in the New Testament, all of which are in the book of Revelation, twice in our current chapter (vv 17 & 21) and once in chapter 18 (v 2), where it is interpreted bird. We know that natural birds do not fly in space or outside of our atmosphere. The birds depicted in this symbolic passage “fly in the midst of heaven.” These are obviously not literal birds. In fact, there is no evidence of literal birds in heaven. Allowing for the figurative location of this reading (namely Rev) I feel we can assume that this is a symbolic depiction.

The statement the “midst of heaven” is taken from the Greek word mesouranema which is the joining of the Greek words mesos (Strong’s 3319) and ouranos (Strong’s 3772). It is found three times in the New Testament all of which are translated “midst of heaven” – referring to the actual place of heaven. Notably, in the other two references (Revelation 8:13 and 14:6) the usage of the word also refers to angels in the “midst of heaven” Along with the evidence that I have already presented I believe this gives a compelling case for views these symbolic fowls as angels. Whilst it can be rendered sky, the translators were indeed correct in their interpretation of this.
 
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Jamdoc

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Armageddon is not mentioned in Revelation 19. As per normal, you force it into the text where it does not belong or fit. Revelation 19 is the end of the wicked and the ushering in of eternity. Revelation reveals a conflict between two armies - the Lord’s and the beast’s. Mankind belongs to one of two camps. That is the story of Revelation. That is what exposes the premillennial narrative.

and you STILL
cannot explain the 144,000, the 7th seal, the 7 trumpets and 7 vials, because by your doctrine the world is DESTROYED by the brightness of His coming after the 6th seal.
 
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Jamdoc

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It is utterly ridiculous, if as Amils claim, the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames during the 2nd coming, and that Revelation 19 depicts no such thing happening at the time, then Revelation 19 using imagery of feasting birds to describe this event. And not only that, why does Christ even need to slay anyone in Matthew 19:21? Shouldn't they all already be dead from the flames engulfing the planet at the time? Even if the feasting birds are not meaning in the literal sense, though I tend to think it is, but if it wasn't, and that the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames at the time, no one in their right mind would be using imagery of feasting birds to try and describe this event.

There is a destruction by fire, they're not wrong that it'll happen it's their timing that is off because they're using verses from prophecy that's further back than Revelation and from a different perspective, so all the events look like they happen simultaneously. Daniel and Revelation give indications of time, rather than instants.

But see.. this is where I see the cataclysmic destruction by fire in Revelation

Revelation 20:9-13
Right there. Consumed by fire, then the final resurrection and judgement of everyone. But it comes after the 1000 years.
 
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DavidPT

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There is a destruction by fire, they're not wrong that it'll happen it's their timing that is off because they're using verses from prophecy that's further back than Revelation and from a different perspective, so all the events look like they happen simultaneously. Daniel and Revelation give indications of time, rather than instants.

But see.. this is where I see the cataclysmic destruction by fire in Revelation

Revelation 20:9-13
Right there. Consumed by fire, then the final resurrection and judgement of everyone. But it comes after the 1000 years.

A lot of Premils do, but I'm not one of them. The day of the Lord clearly involves the 2nd coming, and that is when 2 Peter 3:10-12 is meaning. What my point is, if 2 Peter 3:10-12 involves the 2nd coming, and that Revelation 19 involves the 2nd coming, we can know from the latter that 2 Peter 3:10-12 shouldn't be taken in the literal sense, because if it was meaning literally like described, Revelation 19 wouldn't be depicting Christ slaying these, then birds feasting on their remains.

There would be no feasting birds if the entire planet was literally engulfed in flames. During Noah's flood there were no feasting birds circling then feasting on dead bodies. They all ended up drowned with the rest of the people and animals not on the ark. If the planet was literally engulfed in flames, there would be no feasting birds circling then feasting on dead bodies, they would all end up burned up with the rest of the planet, therefore if the planet is literally ablaze like Amils claim, Revelation 19 wouldn't be using feasting birds to describe these events any more than feasting birds would be used to describe Noah's flood.
 
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sovereigngrace

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A lot of Premils do, but I'm not one of them. The day of the Lord clearly involves the 2nd coming, and that is when 2 Peter 3:10-12 is meaning. What my point is, if 2 Peter 3:10-12 involves the 2nd coming, and that Revelation 19 involves the 2nd coming, we can know from the latter that 2 Peter 3:10-12 shouldn't be taken in the literal sense, because if it was meaning literally like described, Revelation 19 wouldn't be depicting Christ slaying these, then birds feasting on their remains.

There would be no feasting birds if the entire planet was literally engulfed in flames. During Noah's flood there were no feasting birds circling then feasting on dead bodies. They all ended up drowned with the rest of the people and animals not on the ark. If the planet was literally engulfed in flames, there would be no feasting birds circling then feasting on dead bodies, they would all end up burned up with the rest of the planet, therefore if the planet is literally ablaze like Amils claim, Revelation 19 wouldn't be using feasting birds to describe these events any more than feasting birds would be used to describe Noah's flood.

Please stop avoiding the answer.

Revelation 19:17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.”

The “fowls” that “fly in the midst of heaven” are commanded to prepare for a supper – the dead carcasses of the wicked that are about to be destroyed by the Lord.

So, what are the fowls in this reading symbolic of?

The word rendered “fowls” in this reading is the word orneois in the original, which simply means birds. The word comes up three times in the New Testament, all of which are in the book of Revelation, twice in our current chapter (vv 17 & 21) and once in chapter 18 (v 2), where it is interpreted bird. We know that natural birds do not fly in space or outside of our atmosphere. The birds depicted in this symbolic passage “fly in the midst of heaven.” These are obviously not literal birds. In fact, there is no evidence of literal birds in heaven. Allowing for the figurative location of this reading (namely Rev) I feel we can assume that this is a symbolic depiction.

The statement the “midst of heaven” is taken from the Greek word mesouranema which is the joining of the Greek words mesos (Strong’s 3319) and ouranos (Strong’s 3772). It is found three times in the New Testament all of which are translated “midst of heaven” – referring to the actual place of heaven. Notably, in the other two references (Revelation 8:13 and 14:6) the usage of the word also refers to angels in the “midst of heaven” Along with the evidence that I have already presented I believe this gives a compelling case for views these symbolic fowls as angels. Whilst it can be rendered sky, the translators were indeed correct in their interpretation of this.
 
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sovereigngrace

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and you STILL
cannot explain the 144,000, the 7th seal, the 7 trumpets and 7 vials, because by your doctrine the world is DESTROYED by the brightness of His coming after the 6th seal.

You first of all have to recognize the recaps (or repeats or different camera views) of the same general game in Revelation. Each show us an important different aspect of the defeat of the kingdom of darkness and the defeat of every enemy of righteousness. Each of these refer to different subjects, entities or aspects of God's unfolding plan during that time. Each recapitulation finishes with the gathering of the wicked together to battle against the righteous, followed by the glorious climatic coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Babylon

An example of the parallels is seen in the fact that Babylon’s destruction at the end of the sixth parallel Revelation 17-19 is also recorded at the end of parallels 4 & 5 revealing the awful apocalyptic wrath that accompanies the appearance of Christ at the Second Advent – the day of God’s wrath. They all graphically portray the elements and the wicked being destroyed, albeit in distinct yet similar symbolic language.

Notwithstanding, when we look at the conclusion of these three parallels before us, we see that they culminate in the all-consummating destruction of Babylon. Significantly, after a vivid record of the final destruction they all immediately commence with a new corresponding viewing, albeit concentrating on another aspect of the great conflict between good and evil. Revelation 19 is therefore a record of the end of the world, which sees the destruction of this earth and the wicked that are in it.

The complete and absolute destruction of Babylon is alluded to in several of the symbolic parallels in Revelation. However, Premillennialists consistently mistakenly advance Revelation 17-19 as the sole record of the destruction of Babylon, though it is just one of three different explicit references (or repeats) of its complete and final annihilation. All, significantly, occur at the end of each of the seven respective parallels. Moreover, Revelation 17-19 is only one of seven records of the final day of God’s wrath, all of which notably occur at the end of each parallel. Notwithstanding, all are viewed from a slightly different camera-view, although sometimes using varying terminology, yet, revealing the same immediate and utter destruction of the world and the wicked.

Whilst, we will only look here at the three direct descriptions of the destruction of Babylon (at the termination of parallels 4, 5 & 6), parallels 1, 2, 3 & 7 also reveal the apocalyptic wrath that accompanies the appearance of Christ at the Second Advent – the day of God’s wrath. They all graphically portray the elements and the wicked being destroyed, albeit in distinct yet similar symbolic language.

Parallel 4

Revelation 14:8-14, 19-20 says, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication … The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation … cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress.”

Parallel 5

Revelation 16:14-20 says, "the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath."

Parallel 6

Revelation 18:1-3 says, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies … he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of almighty God.”
 
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DavidPT

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Please stop avoiding the answer.

Revelation 19:17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.”

The “fowls” that “fly in the midst of heaven” are commanded to prepare for a supper – the dead carcasses of the wicked that are about to be destroyed by the Lord.

So, what are the fowls in this reading symbolic of?

The word rendered “fowls” in this reading is the word orneois in the original, which simply means birds. The word comes up three times in the New Testament, all of which are in the book of Revelation, twice in our current chapter (vv 17 & 21) and once in chapter 18 (v 2), where it is interpreted bird. We know that natural birds do not fly in space or outside of our atmosphere. The birds depicted in this symbolic passage “fly in the midst of heaven.” These are obviously not literal birds. In fact, there is no evidence of literal birds in heaven. Allowing for the figurative location of this reading (namely Rev) I feel we can assume that this is a symbolic depiction.

The statement the “midst of heaven” is taken from the Greek word mesouranema which is the joining of the Greek words mesos (Strong’s 3319) and ouranos (Strong’s 3772). It is found three times in the New Testament all of which are translated “midst of heaven” – referring to the actual place of heaven. Notably, in the other two references (Revelation 8:13 and 14:6) the usage of the word also refers to angels in the “midst of heaven” Along with the evidence that I have already presented I believe this gives a compelling case for views these symbolic fowls as angels. Whilst it can be rendered sky, the translators were indeed correct in their interpretation of this.


Heaven doesn't always mean heaven where God dwells. Sometimes it simply means our atmosphere, as in where the clouds above us are hanging out. It's too bad that you reject that the following in Ezekiel 39 is meaning these same events recorded in Revelation 19, because according to Ezekiel 39, not only does it involve feasting flying birds, it also involves feasting land animals.

Ezekiel 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

Ezekiel 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Heaven doesn't always mean heaven where God dwells. Sometimes it simply means our atmosphere, as in where the clouds above us are hanging out. It's too bad that you reject that the following in Ezekiel 39 is meaning these same events recorded in Revelation 19, because according to Ezekiel 39, not only does it involve feasting flying birds, it also involves feasting land animals.

Ezekiel 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

Ezekiel 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

The main issue is that your hermeneutics do not take context and genre into consideration. If you did you would be forced to recognize that we are looking at the most figurative book in the Bible. It is saturated in symbolism. The next is a lack of consistency in your approach to Revelation. You wing it as you go all depending what suits Premil.

Animals are repeatedly used as symbols in Revelation to represent spiritual truths, realities and events. Until you see that you will never see Amillennial truth.

When the literal detail works against your doctrine, you then spiritualize it away. This is very disingenuous. It totally undermines your argument.

The literal detail in Revelation 19 (and throughout the Word of God) indicates there are no survivors when Jesus comes. It is also there in the Revelation 19, yet you carefully steer around it in order to sustain your beliefs. Obviously this is because you do not want Premillennialism to be wrong.

Until you are more objective, it is impossible for you to grasp the climatic truths related to the second coming. Also, until you see the definite parallels in Revelation you will never see what is been taught.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Heaven doesn't always mean heaven where God dwells. Sometimes it simply means our atmosphere, as in where the clouds above us are hanging out. It's too bad that you reject that the following in Ezekiel 39 is meaning these same events recorded in Revelation 19, because according to Ezekiel 39, not only does it involve feasting flying birds, it also involves feasting land animals.

Ezekiel 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

Ezekiel 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

There is an old profound adage that says, ‘the future is in the past, and the past is in the future’. Thus implying, if you want to discover or unveil the actual things that are still to come then look to the past for assistance. This is particularly relevant with biblical teaching. Christian authority on Judeo/Christian Customs and historic developments, and current lecturer at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, Dr. James Fleming explains, “If one is reflective, they can see, understand and learn from the past … One of the Hebrew words for the future is a very strange word “aharat,” it means the backside of history or the backside of God. One of the words for the future is “behind.” He also says, “Confidence is gained for what cannot be seen from what has happened before. You understand what God is like from what God has done.”

This is exactly the premise upon which John builds his symbolic prophecy. John employs this idea in profound style in the whole book of Revelation, by lending many Old Testament sayings, locations, events and images to impress deep spiritual truth about the future. In doing so he is simply advancing the past and that which has happened in the past to explain the future. Therefore, when John unveils the prophecy of Revelation he does so in symbolic form by advancing many familiar Old Testament sayings, locations, events and images to, in some way, impress how the future will unfold. We can be confident in what God has done in the past and take comfort that he will as an unchanged God perform the same in the future.

Ecclesiastes1: 9-10 significantly states, The thing that hath been (the past), it is that which shall be (the future); and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.”

Revelation employs both unique and familiar symbols, biblical numbers and figurative language to describe the great eternal conflict between good and evil, and frequently advances literal Old Testament symbols, events or locations to impress New Testament truth or ideas on the reader. John repeatedly employs prominent Old Testament imagery to impress glorious spiritual New Testament truths. It is estimated that Revelation contains over 500 references to Old Testament events and stories, yet NOT one single direct quote.

Dr. James Fleming further explains: “Ezekiel, Daniel and Zechariah are Old Testament apocalyptic books that use symbolic language for “that day.” These three books influenced the Apocalypse … Of the four hundred and some verses in the book of Revelation, over two hundred are paraphrases of Old Testament verses.”

Whilst the Old Testament mentions end-times and the second coming; it is often written in veiled and incomplete detail, mixed and interspersed with ancient events and other historical detail. It is also presented in types and shadows.
 
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DavidPT

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Please stop avoiding the answer.

Revelation 19:17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.”

The “fowls” that “fly in the midst of heaven” are commanded to prepare for a supper – the dead carcasses of the wicked that are about to be destroyed by the Lord.

So, what are the fowls in this reading symbolic of?

The word rendered “fowls” in this reading is the word orneois in the original, which simply means birds. The word comes up three times in the New Testament, all of which are in the book of Revelation, twice in our current chapter (vv 17 & 21) and once in chapter 18 (v 2), where it is interpreted bird. We know that natural birds do not fly in space or outside of our atmosphere. The birds depicted in this symbolic passage “fly in the midst of heaven.” These are obviously not literal birds. In fact, there is no evidence of literal birds in heaven. Allowing for the figurative location of this reading (namely Rev) I feel we can assume that this is a symbolic depiction.

The statement the “midst of heaven” is taken from the Greek word mesouranema which is the joining of the Greek words mesos (Strong’s 3319) and ouranos (Strong’s 3772). It is found three times in the New Testament all of which are translated “midst of heaven” – referring to the actual place of heaven. Notably, in the other two references (Revelation 8:13 and 14:6) the usage of the word also refers to angels in the “midst of heaven” Along with the evidence that I have already presented I believe this gives a compelling case for views these symbolic fowls as angels. Whilst it can be rendered sky, the translators were indeed correct in their interpretation of this.


Are there any Amils who believe the earth is literally burned up during the 2nd coming, also believe there will be animals on the new earth? If there are some, I wonder how these Amils think they end up on the new earth since there is no ark to board them on beforehand, in order to keep them safe from being burned alive? Actually an ark wouldn't do them much good anyway, since boats are known for surviving in water, but are not known for surviving in engulfed flames. Maybe God resurrects animals, maybe that's how they end up on the new earth? Maybe God creates new animals, maybe that's how they end up on the new earth? Some Premils have this same dilemma if they think the earth is literally burned up after the great white throne judgment, and that there are then animals on the new earth. So how did they get there?
 
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DavidPT

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The main issue is that your hermeneutics do not take context and genre into consideration. If you did you would be forced to recognize that we are looking at the most figurative book in the Bible. It is saturated in symbolism. The next is a lack of consistency in your approach to Revelation. You wing it as you go all depending what suits Premil.

Animals are repeatedly used as symbols in Revelation to represent spiritual truths, realities and events. Until you see that you will never see Amillennial truth.

When the literal detail works against your doctrine, you then spiritualize it away. This is very disingenuous. It totally undermines your argument.

The literal detail in Revelation 19 (and throughout the Word of God) indicates there are no survivors when Jesus comes. It is also there in the Revelation 19, yet you carefully steer around it in order to sustain your beliefs. Obviously this is because you do not want Premillennialism to be wrong.

Until you are more objective, it is impossible for you to grasp the climatic truths related to the second coming. Also, until you see the definite parallels in Revelation you will never see what is been taught.


Even though I tend to think the feasting birds is meaning in the literal sense, I also accept that maybe it isn't. Either way, imagery like this wouldn't be being used if the entire planet were literally engulfed in the flames at the time.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Notice the chronology here, though I realize Amils typically disregard chronology a lot of the time. They are slain first, then given to the fowls. The fowls are not the ones killing them, they are the ones eating them after they have been killed.
 
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Are there any Amils who believe the earth is literally burned up during the 2nd coming, also believe there will be animals on the new earth? If there are some, I wonder how these Amils think they end up on the new earth since there is no ark to board them on beforehand, in order to keep them safe from being burned alive? Actually an ark wouldn't do them much good anyway, since boats are known for surviving in water, but are not known for surviving in engulfed flames. Maybe God resurrects animals, maybe that's how they end up on the new earth? Maybe God creates new animals, maybe that's how they end up on the new earth? Some Premils have this same dilemma if they think the earth is literally burned up after the great white throne judgment, and that there are then animals on the new earth. So how did they get there?

Most Amils I know believe the earth will be regenarted by fire, but it will be the same earth we repopulate, albeit it will be perfect and pristine and eternal. The wicked are destroyed when Christ appears and judged along with the rest of mankind. Everything is tied up when Jesus appears.

After outlining the awful judgment that will fall upon fallen creation, Peter reassures the believer, “Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” (2 Peter 3:13).

If the curse continued on the new earth then the earth would be corrupt, but it isn't. The reason we need glorified is because the earth needs glorified. The new earth ushers in the eternal state. Romans 8 tells us it is free from the bondage of corruption [all the fruit of the fall]. It is for glorified (incorruptible) beings only.
1 Corinthians 15:50 clearly states, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” This reading makes plain, “flesh and blood” or mortal believers cannot inherit a glorified earth that has been purified by fire of every last vestige of the curse. Man in his sinful corruptible state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth. Nothing could be plainer. The “unrighteous shall not inherit” this “kingdom” (1 Corinthians 6:9).

Psalms 37:9-11 says, "For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace."

Here "evildoers" and "the wicked" are synonymous titles that refer to the unrighteous whereas the designations "those that wait upon the LORD" and "the meek" refer to the righteous. The meek are the glorified believers. They are the antithesis of the wicked. Can you not see that? There are only ever 2 peoples.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Even though I tend to think the feasting birds is meaning in the literal sense, I also accept that maybe it isn't. Either way, imagery like this wouldn't be being used if the entire planet were literally engulfed in the flames at the time.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Notice the chronology here, though I realize Amils typically disregard chronology a lot of the time. They are slain first, then given to the fowls. The fowls are not the ones killing them, they are the ones eating them after they have been killed.

Matthew records Jesus say: For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

Where ever the carcass is there the eagles will be gathered together. Eagles flock to where there is prey. Where bodies lie that is where they will congregate. Death and destruction mark the aftermath of God’s judgment. Whilst God’s people are rescued the wicked perish in destruction.

The parallel passage in Luke 17:24-37 tells us: “For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

This is saying the exact same as Matthew 24. Revelation 19 also correlates with this. The eagles devour those left behind after the catching away. The disciples then ask: “Where, Lord?” Christ replies: “Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” Eagles flock to where there is prey. Where bodies lie that is where they will congregate. Death and destruction mark the aftermath of God’s judgment. Whilst God’s people are rescued the wicked perish in destruction.

Significantly, the word for eagles (aetoi) is interestingly interpreted “angel” in Revelation 8:13. It reads: "And I beheld, and heard an angel (aetos) flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels (aggelos), which are yet to sound!"

The fowls or birds seem to be a poignant symbol of the angels of God whose job it is to exercise un-merciless judgment on the wicked on that day. Describing the nature and character of the eagle, Job 39:30 poignantly declares, “where the slain are, there is she. There seems good reason to believe that these fowls or birds are symbolic of the angels, which mete out justice upon the wicked on behalf of God destruction at the end of this age. They are clearly a heavenly host as, when they are bidden, they are found flying “in the midst of heaven.” Here we see the final destruction of the wicked.

Interestingly, just as God’s angels are symbolically described as birds in Revelation, so are Satan’s daemonic angels.

In Revelation 18:2 we have an interesting contrast, again fitting in with the symbolic location of these passages: “And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.”

The terms devils and foul spirits (namely fallen angels) are directly linked to unclean and hateful birds in this passage. Obviously, this is not speaking about literal birds. The idea of angels (or fallen angels) being called birds in Revelation is not unique.

Jesus describes demons as being like the fowls of the air in Mark 4:4 & 15 in the parable of the sower. Our Lord teaches: “as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up … And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.”

Every time the Gospel is faithfully preached Satan is waiting in the wings to steal that Word so that you do not apply it to your heart and it perfect. Every truth is dangerous to him because it encourages the Saints, exalts Christ and exposes him.

Revelation 19:17-18 outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.”

Revelation 19, like every other Scripture, supports a climactic coming (including the destruction of all the wicked), and in doing so reinforces the Amillennial position. Premils have to explain away the literal detail in order to facilitate Premil.

Also, they depend wholly on one flawed opinion, which if taken away, decimates the belief, that of Rev 20 being chronological with Rev 19. Take that away and it falls like a deck of cards.

Those of us who were Premil could not fight with Scripture any more, we had to impress the climactic nature of Christ's return. No wicked survive it. Sin, sinners, corruption and decay, crying and dying are banished from the new earth.
 
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Jamdoc

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You first of all have to recognize the recaps (or repeats or different camera views) of the same general game in Revelation. Each show us an important different aspect of the defeat of the kingdom of darkness and the defeat of every enemy of righteousness. Each of these refer to different subjects, entities or aspects of God's unfolding plan during that time. Each recapitulation finishes with the gathering of the wicked together to battle against the righteous, followed by the glorious climatic coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Babylon

An example of the parallels is seen in the fact that Babylon’s destruction at the end of the sixth parallel Revelation 17-19 is also recorded at the end of parallels 4 & 5 revealing the awful apocalyptic wrath that accompanies the appearance of Christ at the Second Advent – the day of God’s wrath. They all graphically portray the elements and the wicked being destroyed, albeit in distinct yet similar symbolic language.

Notwithstanding, when we look at the conclusion of these three parallels before us, we see that they culminate in the all-consummating destruction of Babylon. Significantly, after a vivid record of the final destruction they all immediately commence with a new corresponding viewing, albeit concentrating on another aspect of the great conflict between good and evil. Revelation 19 is therefore a record of the end of the world, which sees the destruction of this earth and the wicked that are in it.

The complete and absolute destruction of Babylon is alluded to in several of the symbolic parallels in Revelation. However, Premillennialists consistently mistakenly advance Revelation 17-19 as the sole record of the destruction of Babylon, though it is just one of three different explicit references (or repeats) of its complete and final annihilation. All, significantly, occur at the end of each of the seven respective parallels. Moreover, Revelation 17-19 is only one of seven records of the final day of God’s wrath, all of which notably occur at the end of each parallel. Notwithstanding, all are viewed from a slightly different camera-view, although sometimes using varying terminology, yet, revealing the same immediate and utter destruction of the world and the wicked.

Whilst, we will only look here at the three direct descriptions of the destruction of Babylon (at the termination of parallels 4, 5 & 6), parallels 1, 2, 3 & 7 also reveal the apocalyptic wrath that accompanies the appearance of Christ at the Second Advent – the day of God’s wrath. They all graphically portray the elements and the wicked being destroyed, albeit in distinct yet similar symbolic language.

Parallel 4

Revelation 14:8-14, 19-20 says, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication … The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation … cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress.”

Parallel 5

Revelation 16:14-20 says, "the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath."

Parallel 6

Revelation 18:1-3 says, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies … he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of almighty God.”

All of that, and you fail to answer the question, yet again.
Look dude. Read the book again. Revelation 4-11 is a continuity. You don't open the 7th seal before the 6th seal, the trumpets don't happen before the 7th seal, and the 144,000 happen between the 6th and 7th seal.
So if you see the return of Jesus in Revelation 6 after the 6th seal, and you associate the return of Jesus with the near instantaneous destruction of the world. Then in your view everything after Revelation 6 is moot.
You have no explanation for the 144,000, the 7th seal, or 7 trumpets.
 
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keras

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Revelation 19, like every other Scripture, supports a climactic coming (including the destruction of all the wicked), and in doing so reinforces the Amillennial position. Premils have to explain away the literal detail in order to facilitate Premil.
How do people like you read something into the Bible that simply is not there?
Or; completely mis-read what IS there?

The literal detail of Jesus' Return, is that He destroys the armies of the 'beast', the Anti-Christ and chains him up.
The rest of the worlds population will see Jesus Return and will be required to go up each year to pay homage to Him. Zechariah 14:16-19, Revelation 15:4
But we Christians will be gathered to Him, in the holy Land and will be His priests and co-rulers. Revelation 5:10

The New Jerusalem and the [re]newed earth, does not come until after the next 1000 years. Revelation 21:1-7
 
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sovereigngrace

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How do people like you read something into the Bible that simply is not there?
Or; completely mis-read what IS there?

The literal detail of Jesus' Return, is that He destroys the armies of the 'beast', the Anti-Christ and chains him up.
The rest of the worlds population will see Jesus Return and will be required to go up each year to pay homage to Him. Zechariah 14:16-19, Revelation 15:4
But we Christians will be gathered to Him, in the holy Land and will be His priests and co-rulers. Revelation 5:10

The New Jerusalem and the [re]newed earth, does not come until after the next 1000 years. Revelation 21:1-7

Zechariah 14 is historic. Your faulty approach to that chapter is causing you to force numerous mortal rebels unto the new earth.
 
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sovereigngrace

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All of that, and you fail to answer the question, yet again.
Look dude. Read the book again. Revelation 4-11 is a continuity. You don't open the 7th seal before the 6th seal, the trumpets don't happen before the 7th seal, and the 144,000 happen between the 6th and 7th seal.
So if you see the return of Jesus in Revelation 6 after the 6th seal, and you associate the return of Jesus with the near instantaneous destruction of the world. Then in your view everything after Revelation 6 is moot.
You have no explanation for the 144,000, the 7th seal, or 7 trumpets.

Again, you ignore each rebuttal and just keep voicing your faulty opinions. Clearly you have no suitable rebuttals. This does nothing to advance your cause.
 
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Jamdoc

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Again, you ignore each rebuttal and just keep voicing your faulty opinions. Clearly you have no suitable rebuttals. This does nothing to advance your cause.

Sir I have explained my belief that the return of Jesus and the final destruction of this earth by fire happen at 2 separate times that appear to be the same event in earlier prophecy because of perspective multiple times. Not my fault you choose to ignore them.

But I have asked several times how you explain the chronological events after the 6th seal, and you simply can't.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Sir I have explained my belief that the return of Jesus and the final destruction of this earth by fire happen at 2 separate times that appear to be the same event in earlier prophecy because of perspective multiple times. Not my fault you choose to ignore them.

But I have asked several times how you explain the chronological events after the 6th seal, and you simply can't.

The two future coming was a Jesuit invention that Edward Irving foolishly bought into. It was unknown to the Christian Church previously.

The 6th seal is the end. The second coming! Revelation 6:12-14 relates the final destruction described in Isaiah 34 to the appearance of the Lord at the second coming, where the wicked finally receive their reward. We learn, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

This is speaking of the coming of Christ in His wrath at the end at time that will also see the wicked and this current earth destroyed. No one could surely imagine that this current earth could survive the stars hitting this earth at the end. The word for stars here is aster (Strong’s 792), from where we get our word asteroids from. It the picture before us: “the stars of heaven fell unto the earth.”

This is indeed a terrifying day for those left behind. In fact, it is so horrific that the wicked cry out “to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.” There is no doubt from the wording of this that the wrath of God accompanies the Lord’s return. The wicked are expressly trying to “hide … from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.” This is a terrible day for the lost. The terror is magnified by the fact it is too late for hope.

There is none that escape this judgment. The rich and poor, the free and bond are all included. It says: “the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb”

It is not just this earth that is replaced at Christ’s return but also the heavens. The heavens above will also be dissolved when He comes. V 14 tells us: “And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.”This narrative fits in with every other Second Coming passage that describes the end of the world at His Advent

This dark portrayal is completed by an apt rhetorical question, and one that Premils should consider, “and who shall be able to stand?” The answer of course is simple: none! No one could survive such a cataclysmic judgment – never. The nature and enormity of the destruction is too overwhelming. The earth, elements and the heavens are changed forever being regenerated by fire never to be the same again. Those on the earth after the catching away will simply be destroyed with this current earth.

This narrative alludes to the exact same scene as that described in Isaiah 34. In near word-for-word language, this solemn passage depicts God’s final judgment on the world, and shows God’s final wrath upon both the elements and the wicked that are left behind at Christ’s appearing. Moreover, the rhetorical question at the end of the above narrative demands the evident answer – none! In fact, Isaiah 34 actually supplies the required answer to the concluding question in Revelation 6:14 “who shall be able to stand?” saying, “none shall pass through it for ever and ever.” Assuredly, the wicked will not in anyway survive the climactic coming of Christ, this being expressly “the great day of his wrath.” In short, none of those left behind “shall be able to stand.” This is not simply a temporary condition involving partial destruction in order to facilitate the setting up of a sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennium, no; it is the final conflagration that destroys this current scene of time “for ever and ever.”
 
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