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Peter J Barban

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You are entitled to your opinion. I disagree as, obviously, do many others. I spent time working as a domestic relations hearing officer when I first entered to practice of law. I saw far to many women abused by their husbands who insisted that they submit.

Do not say that mY girlfriend is falling short as either a girlfriend or a Christian by engaging in a relationship of mutual submission which is what our relationship is. She is pleasing Jesus, she is honoring the Lord.
It is a problem when husbands insist that their wives submit. If you truly want to help them both, then the traditional teaching is best: teach the husbands to voluntarily sacrifice and the wives to voluntarily submit out of reverence to Christ.

Voluntarily giving someone more of what they want usually reduces conflict.

This method has worked for thousands of years.
 
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Peter J Barban

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No. I am of the position that the analogy of Christ and the Church, to marriage, has limitations.

(That is, some things which are true of Christ and the Church help us understand marriage, and some things which are true of marriage help us understand the relationship of Christ and the Church; but not everything which is true of Christ and the Church is true of marriage; and not everything that is true of marriage is true of Christ and the Church).
I remain unclear on your thought.

Since Paul says that the wife must submit to her husband as the church submits to Christ and you say the husband and wife must mutually submit,

1. Should Christ submit to the church (which is a spiritual marriage) based on the principle of mutual submission?

2. Do you find Paul analogy faulty?
 
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Peter J Barban

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jafyi u r not Christ. U r the church. U r not looking at it from a spiritual but from flesh. U r not to see Christ that way anymore, no one is.
Besides the fact that God is termed as helpmeet in many more places than women are. But I guess you forgot that already.
This post is kind of unreadable, could you please try again?
 
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Peter J Barban

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Baby Steps in Theology, part 2 The headship of the husband (and the "bodyship" of the wife.)

Here is a concise explanation if you are not clear on the meaning of headship.
What Does the Bible Teach about Headship? | Biblical Foundations

Going way back to Genesis 2:24 "That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh."

This idea of one flesh has a connection to the act of sex, but on a deeper level, it refers to the husband and wife becoming "one organism" that consists of a head/leader and a body/helper.

When Jesus says "the Father and I are one", he also says, "I always do the will of the Father". This "two being one" does not imply equality, it implies that the Father is the leader and Jesus is the follower.

Paul extends this headship idea from the Father to the Son, to the husband and then to the wife:

1 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

So in the Bible, the husband is specifically said to be the head of the wife.

added: Jesus did the will of the Father, the husband should do the will of Jesus and the wife should do the will of her husband. That is how Paul sees it.
 
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It is a problem when husbands insist that their wives submit. If you truly want to help them both, then the traditional teaching is best: teach the husbands to voluntarily sacrifice and the wives to voluntarily submit out of reverence to Christ.

Voluntarily giving someone more of what they want usually reduces conflict.

Or they mutually submit.

This method has worked for thousands of years.

Tell that to the abused women I saw in support hearings.
 
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Peter J Barban

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Or they mutually submit.



Tell that to the abused women I saw in support hearings.
I believe in mutual submission, but there's no such thing as simultaneous submission. Unless a husband and wife's wills are identical, one must lead and the other follow.

In my marriage, I submit to my wife on more issues than she submits to me. That is an important part of a husband sacrificing for his wife. But on mission-critical issues, the wife should let her husband lead.
 
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I believe in mutual submission, but there's no such thing as simultaneous submission. Unless a husband and wife's wills are identical, one must lead and the other follow.

Why must one lead and one follow? If my girlfriend and I cannot reach agreement we compromise.

In my marriage, I submit to my wife on more issues than she submits to me. That is an important part of a husband sacrificing for his wife. But on mission-critical issues, the wife should let her husband lead.

And I presume that you believe that it is up to the husband to determine what issues are “mission-critical.”
 
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bekkilyn

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It doesn't escape my notice that this guy in his arrogance treats all the women in this thread as if they are stupid and uninformed (baby steps indeed!) and have never seen scripture before, much less deeply studied it and came to different conclusions that are much more consistent with the overall message of the gospel.

And how in his comparison of Jesus and the Father, he's bordering (if not right on it) on the heresy of the eternal submission of the Son to the Father and denying the Trinity as co-equal and co-eternal.
 
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I believe in mutual submission, but there's no such thing as simultaneous submission. Unless a husband and wife's wills are identical, one must lead and the other follow.

In my marriage, I submit to my wife on more issues than she submits to me. That is an important part of a husband sacrificing for his wife. But on mission-critical issues, the wife should let her husband lead.
This post is kind of unreadable, could you please try again?
Jus something else you forgot. People are tired of answering you because you have a one track mind. The obvious answer is that together they try to determine Christ’s leading.

Paul used the Greek word “hupotasso” for what is rendered “subject or submit” and is a Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader”.

OR

In non-military use,it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden". Hupotasso - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

1 Using the military definition of the word “The wife stands behind her husband in all things when her husband stands behind Christ”.

2 In the non-military meaning, “a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden.”

3 In relationship to family “A wife cooperates and assumes responsibility with her husband to carry their burden with Christ.” Ephesians 5:22-24
 
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Paidiske

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I remain unclear on your thought.

Since Paul says that the wife must submit to her husband as the church submits to Christ and you say the husband and wife must mutually submit,

1. Should Christ submit to the church (which is a spiritual marriage) based on the principle of mutual submission?

2. Do you find Paul analogy faulty?

My thought is that this analogy, like every analogy, breaks down if pushed past its useful point.

To take an unrelated example; Paul elsewhere talks about life as a race. Now that is obviously a useful analogy when we think about it in terms of the discipline required to win a race (etc); but it would be pushed past its useful point if, for example, someone decided on that basis to deny him or herself sleep, because they had to strain ahead in the race (and so on).

Similarly with the analogy of marriage; it's a useful analogy when it teaches us helpful things about marriage or about the life of the church. It's not useful when we try to apply it in ways which go beyond its intention and end up in unhelpful outcomes.

I would argue that introducing concepts of power and hierarchy into marriage has gone past the useful point of the analogy. Husbands are not actually gods, and our relationships with them shouldn't treat them as if they are.

So the analogy is not faulty, but like every analogy, it is limited.

Note that it's not me saying husband and wife must mutually submit; Paul says it right there in Ephesians 5:21!

This idea of one flesh has a connection to the act of sex, but on a deeper level, it refers to the husband and wife becoming "one organism" that consists of a head/leader and a body/helper.

When Jesus says "the Father and I are one", he also says, "I always do the will of the Father". This "two being one" does not imply equality, it implies that the Father is the leader and Jesus is the follower.

Paul extends this headship idea from the Father to the Son, to the husband and then to the wife:

1 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

So in the Bible, the husband is specifically said to be the head of the wife.

added: Jesus did the will of the Father, the husband should do the will of Jesus and the wife should do the will of her husband. That is how Paul sees it.

No no no no no. This is the heresy of subordinationism; the idea that the persons of the Trinity are not co-equal. In the Trinity there is not hierarchy; there is not leader and follower. (See the Athanasian Creed). In Jesus' earthly, human life, he was obedient to God; but that was obedience to something of which he was, in his godhood, a part.

Husband and wife becoming one is not about one taking control of the other; it is about a coming together in will as well as in body.

And again, "head" here is not about control.
 
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Peter J Barban

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My thought is that this analogy, like every analogy, breaks down if pushed past its useful point.

To take an unrelated example; Paul elsewhere talks about life as a race. Now that is obviously a useful analogy when we think about it in terms of the discipline required to win a race (etc); but it would be pushed past its useful point if, for example, someone decided on that basis to deny him or herself sleep, because they had to strain ahead in the race (and so on).

Similarly with the analogy of marriage; it's a useful analogy when it teaches us helpful things about marriage or about the life of the church. It's not useful when we try to apply it in ways which go beyond its intention and end up in unhelpful outcomes.

I would argue that introducing concepts of power and hierarchy into marriage has gone past the useful point of the analogy. Husbands are not actually gods, and our relationships with them shouldn't treat them as if they are.

So the analogy is not faulty, but like every analogy, it is limited.

Note that it's not me saying husband and wife must mutually submit; Paul says it right there in Ephesians 5:21!



No no no no no. This is the heresy of subordinationism; the idea that the persons of the Trinity are not co-equal. In the Trinity there is not hierarchy; there is not leader and follower. (See the Athanasian Creed). In Jesus' earthly, human life, he was obedient to God; but that was obedience to something of which he was, in his godhood, a part.

Husband and wife becoming one is not about one taking control of the other; it is about a coming together in will as well as in body.

And again, "head" here is not about control.
I agree completely that analogies can be taken too far. However, in this analogy, Paul is specifically endorsing "concepts of power and hierarchy into marriage". That's the whole point of his analogy. We've known that for millennia.

If that intention breaks down, then this passage is just the work of a man and not inspired by God. My belief that all Scripture is God-breathed is why I defend this passage so passionately.
 
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Paidiske

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I agree completely that analogies can be taken too far. However, in this analogy, Paul is specifically endorsing "concepts of power and hierarchy into marriage". That's the whole point of his analogy. We've known that for millennia.

No! The point of the analogy is not about power and control and hierarchy; if it were, Paul would not instruct mutual submission up front.

The point is about unity; about identity; about cooperation and so on.

If that intention breaks down, then this passage is just the work of a man and not inspired by God. My belief that all Scripture is God-breathed is why I defend this passage so passionately.

Since all Scripture is God-breathed, all Scripture should reflect the life-giving, liberating, edifying purposes of God; to enable us to live and contribute to all spheres of life (domestic, civic and ecclesial), to the full.
 
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Peter J Barban

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No! The point of the analogy is not about power and control and hierarchy; if it were, Paul would not instruct mutual submission up front.

The point is about unity; about identity; about cooperation and so on.



Since all Scripture is God-breathed, all Scripture should reflect the life-giving, liberating, edifying purposes of God; to enable us to live and contribute to all spheres of life (domestic, civic and ecclesial), to the full.
I think that you are compromising the Bible message to agree with your political message. Christian history stands with me.
 
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Paidiske

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I think that you are compromising the Bible message to agree with your political message. Christian history stands with me.

I think labelling this "political" is bizarre. It's profoundly theological.

We have to ask ourselves what God's will is for humanity (and we know that it is our flourishing; Christ says that he came that we might have life, and have it to the full). And then we have to read the Scriptures in a way which is consistent with that will and purpose.

If our reading of the Scriptures runs contrary to human flourishing, we know we've got something wrong.

And no, subordinating women to men does not, in any way, lead to our flourishing. It leads to us being diminished, demeaned, and denied opportunities to be the daughters of God we are created, gifted and called to be.

I'm being utterly uncompromising on the message of Scripture here.

And history? That's irrelevant. Claiming "history" as an authority proves nothing. Christians throughout history have mistakenly endorsed all sorts of evils.
 
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Peter J Barban

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I think labelling this "political" is bizarre. It's profoundly theological.

We have to ask ourselves what God's will is for humanity (and we know that it is our flourishing; Christ says that he came that we might have life, and have it to the full). And then we have to read the Scriptures in a way which is consistent with that will and purpose.

If our reading of the Scriptures runs contrary to human flourishing, we know we've got something wrong.

And no, subordinating women to men does not, in any way, lead to our flourishing. It leads to us being diminished, demeaned, and denied opportunities to be the daughters of God we are created, gifted and called to be.

I'm being utterly uncompromising on the message of Scripture here.

And history? That's irrelevant. Claiming "history" as an authority proves nothing. Christians throughout history have mistakenly endorsed all sorts of evils.
You give away the game when you say, "If our reading of the Scriptures runs contrary to human flourishing, we know we've got something wrong."

You admit to imposing a top-down view of Scripture and anything that doesn't fit your agenda is wrong. Then you impose your judgment across all people and all times.

When one person does this, its just bad Bible study, when a movement does it - as I said before- it is the corruption of scripture in the pursuit of politics, and its very dangerous.
 
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Paidiske

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You give away the game when you say, "If our reading of the Scriptures runs contrary to human flourishing, we know we've got something wrong."

You admit to imposing a top-down view of Scripture and anything that doesn't fit your agenda is wrong. Then you impose your judgment across all people and all times.

When one person does this, its just bad Bible study, when a movement does it - as I said before- it is the corruption of scripture in the pursuit of politics, and its very dangerous.

It's not my agenda, though; it is explicitly God's agenda, as stated throughout Scripture. Any individual passage of Scripture which seems to run counter to that Scriptural big picture requires further investigation.

You accuse me of corrupting Scripture; from my point of view, I am being radically faithful to Scripture. Unless you have anything to bring which isn't about diminishing women, I don't know that this has anywhere to go.
 
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Peter J Barban

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People who support marriage equality usually make a fundamental error of using a general verse, such a mutual submission and using their implicit understanding of that to disregard more explicit verses regarding the wifely submission.

Here is why that's wrong:
"Closely related to this point is the principle that the implicit must be interpreted by the explicit, rather than the explicit interpreted by the implicit. This particular rule of interpretation is violated constantly. For example, we read in John 3:16 that “whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life,” and many of us conclude that since the Bible teaches that anyone who believes shall be saved, it therefore implies that anyone can, without the prior regenerative work of the Holy Spirit, exercise belief. That is, since the call to believe is given to everyone, it implies that everyone has the natural ability to fulfill the call. Yet the same gospel writer has Jesus explaining to us three chapters later that no one can come to Jesus unless it is given to him of the Father (6:65). That is, our moral ability to come to Christ is explicitly and specifically taught to be lacking apart from the sovereign grace of God. Therefore, all of the implications that suggest otherwise must be subsumed under the explicit teaching, rather than forcing the explicit teaching into conformity to implications that we draw from the text." from
Practical Principles of Biblical Interpretation

Good biblical interpretation uses explicit verses such as a wife's submission to husband to guide the interpretation of mutual submission.

Ephesians 5
21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Basically, you can't use verse 21 to control the interpretation of vs 22-24. Instead, you should use vs 22-24 to guide the interpretation of vs 21.
 
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Peter J Barban

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It's not my agenda, though; it is explicitly God's agenda, as stated throughout Scripture. Any individual passage of Scripture which seems to run counter to that Scriptural big picture requires further investigation.

You accuse me of corrupting Scripture; from my point of view, I am being radically faithful to Scripture. Unless you have anything to bring which isn't about diminishing women, I don't know that this has anywhere to go.
I will ask you plainly, did you start with your big picture view of scripture and then find the evidence that supports it, while disregarding/reinterpreting the plain meaning of the evidence that opposed your big picture view of marriage?
 
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Paidiske

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Basically, you can't use verse 21 to control the interpretation of vs 22-24. Instead, you should use vs 22-24 to guide the interpretation of vs 21.

That's completely backward. It's verse 21 which provides the framework for the following verses.

I will ask you plainly, did you start with your big picture view of scripture and then find the evidence that supports it, while disregarding/reinterpreting the plain meaning of the evidence that opposed your big picture view of marriage?

I think the short answer is no. I was raised in a non-churched household that was, in many ways, an incubator for a set of ideas which are probably closer to what you're advocating; it was becoming a practising Christian as a young adult, and my encounters with Scripture, with a worshipping community, and with God personally, which have helped me to develop the understanding I have now.
 
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Peter J Barban

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That's completely backward. It's verse 21 which provides the framework for the following verses.



I think the short answer is no. I was raised in a non-churched household that was, in many ways, an incubator for a set of ideas which are probably closer to what you're advocating; it was becoming a practising Christian as a young adult, and my encounters with Scripture, with a worshipping community, and with God personally, which have helped me to develop the understanding I have now.
1. You take a general statement on mutual submission.
2. You impute extra-biblical ideas into it, such as marriage equality
3. You reinterpret every verse that disagrees with you.

That is a recipe for error. Your marriage theology is built on a house of cards.

It is common knowledge that when a general statement is followed by specific statements, the specifics clarify the general. You are doing the opposite, using the general to nullify the specifics.

Even lawyers know you can't get away with this shoddy argumentation.
 
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