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Paidiske

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It's disappointing that even a pastor, won't discuss these verses and how to apply them, despite the many posts on this thread.

I did. I raised several points in that discussion; I framed it in a canonical hermeneutic which encompassed both creation and fall. I considered it in terms of the passage as a whole, which urges mutual submission. And I discussed how this passage makes the marriage relationship a priority over other possible relationships.

You have not answered any of those points.

I surmise that marriage equality proponents can only dismiss this passage, based on the posts of this thread.

This is clearly not an accurate summary even of discussion in this thread.
 
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Paidiske

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An integrated hermeneutic needs to look at what other disciplines show us, as well.

In this case, what other disciplines are showing us is incredibly important; there is a very clear link between particular interpretations of Scripture and abuse. To ignore that is to be wilfully negligent with the welfare of our sisters and brothers.
 
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Peter J Barban

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I did. I raised several points in that discussion; I framed it in a canonical hermeneutic which encompassed both creation and fall. I considered it in terms of the passage as a whole, which urges mutual submission. And I discussed how this passage makes the marriage relationship a priority over other possible relationships.

You have not answered any of those points.


I see the "canonical hermeneutic which encompassed both creation and fall" as a fancy way to dismiss Ephesians 5 and 1 Peter 3.

But if you must go into the beginning, Eve was created as a helper for Adam before the fall. And Adam was given headship over the human race, before the fall.

Eve sinned first but that was only her personal sin. The whole human race fell (Roman 5) only when Adam fell because he was the head of the human race.

So even from the beginning, there was no marriage eqality.

I am personally neutral toward marriage equality, but the Bible makes it clear in both the OT and NT that the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church.
 
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Paidiske

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I see the "canonical hermeneutic which encompassed both creation and fall" as a fancy way to dismiss Ephesians 5 and 1 Peter 3.

Not at all. It's not about dismissing anything, but reading Scripture in a way which makes sense of the whole.

But if you must go into the beginning, Eve was created as a helper for Adam before the fall. And Adam was given headship over the human race, before the fall.

So then we have to unpack the "helper" thing. The words used in Hebrew do not imply any sort of submission of Eve to Adam (especially since exactly the same words are often used to describe God's
"helper" relationship with people).

With what would you back up your claim of pre-fall "headship"?

Eve sinned first but that was only her personal sin. The whole human race fell (Roman 5) only when Adam fell because he was the head of the human race.

Since Romans doesn't actually say that (or discuss Eve at all), that's something you're reading into the text.

So even from the beginning, there was no marriage eqality.

You have not established this. From the beginning they were created, male and female, in God's image. There is no suggestion of any hierarchy until after the fall.

I am personally neutral toward marriage equality, but the Bible makes it clear in both the OT and NT that the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church.

And then we have to unpack what "head" means here. I would say that it is not about control, but about the source of our identity. As a wife might (in the west) take her husband's name and share his family identity, so the Church finds its identity grounded in Christ.

But it's not saying that the woman is an appendage of her husband's, under his command. That stretches the analogy to dangerous places.
 
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I would not use the Lancet to guide Christian behavior. Let's start with the Bible before we embrace the world.
Religion is about what God wants from you.
Jesus is about what God wants for you.

Let’s face it, God is not partial to any human. If it’s harmful it’s not what God intended so don’t try to convince anyone that is according to any definition that contradicts that. That just leaves mutuality doesn’t it... the Lancet just provided the statistics to point that out.
 
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Peter J Barban

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An integrated hermeneutic needs to look at what other disciplines show us, as well.

In this case, what other disciplines are showing us is incredibly important; there is a very clear link between particular interpretations of Scripture and abuse. To ignore that is to be wilfully negligent with the welfare of our sisters and brothers.
As far as I know, the Christian message of wifely submission is about voluntary submission. If anyone is forcing Christian women to submit, they are not following the Bible at all. I would be OK with discussing this.

Neglecting Ephesian 5 due to its supposed misapplication is doing no service to Christians. I can only guess there are ulterior motives for avoiding this passage that have nothing to do with protecting abused women.
 
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As far as I know, the Christian message of wifely submission is about voluntary submission. If anyone is forcing Christian women to submit, they are not following the Bible at all. I would be OK with discussing this.

Neglecting Ephesian 5 due to its supposed misapplication is doing no service to Christians. I can only guess there are ulterior motives for avoiding this passage that have nothing to do with protecting abused women.
Paul used the Greek word “hupotasso” for what is rendered “subject or submit” and is a Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". OR

In non-military use,it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden". Hupotasso Meaning in Bible - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

Using the military definition of the word “The wife stands behind her husband in all things when her husband stands behind Christ”.

In the non-military meaning, “a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden.”

In relationship to family “A wife cooperates and assumes responsibility with her husband to carry their burden with Christ.” Ephesians 5:22-24

“Husbands, dwell with your spouse according to the gospel knowledge. This knowledge that you have, I want you to honour the wife, because you will be heirs together in the grace of life.” 1 Peter 3:7​

After singling out slaves and exhorting them to be submissive to their masters and patiently endure unjust punishment Peter then moved on to Christian wives who had unsaved husbands. Wives that were seeking to win husbands to the Lord Jesus.

They were going about it the wrong way and Peter corrected them in that. Those husbands were not people who would listen to reason about the gospel so the best sermon was preached by example.

Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behaviour of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 1 Peter 3:1-2​

The pious living being promoted didn't depend on outer adornment to effect the change like they did before they were saved. They were instructed not to appeal to their husband's depraved nature to try to convert them to Christ. 1 Peter 3:3-4

Kosmos - adornment - is the opposite of chaos. Her adornment was to be in keeping with her Christian status. Knowing oneself in one's new nature, the character that proceeds from the heart. So in keeping with her Christian status the way was to confront the husband not with the world but with the Saviour so as not to feed his sin nature but rather appeal to the unbeliever’s conscience from the inner spiritual being. Romans 12:2

No one can serve 2 masters. The term lord referred to near relatives, father, mother etc while John uses the same Greek word to refer to the 'elect lady' in his epistle. "As long as the believing wives are doing good, they need not be afraid with any sudden terror of the account which their unbelieving husbands may exact from them" 1 Peter 3:6-7

So ladies or gents, whenever you are feel unloved, unimportant or insecure, remember the following words and to Whom you belong:

“So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone.

In him the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built together spiritually into a dwelling place for God.”

Ephesians 2:19-22

Christ planted the seeds of mutuality in marriage and of empowering women and children and the underling.


“Christ left an example, that you should follow in his steps. ‘He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.’ When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly…now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls”, 1 Peter 2:21-25​


“In like manner…”
 
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Peter J Barban

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Not at all. It's not about dismissing anything, but reading Scripture in a way which makes sense of the whole.



So then we have to unpack the "helper" thing. The words used in Hebrew do not imply any sort of submission of Eve to Adam (especially since exactly the same words are often used to describe God's
"helper" relationship with people).

With what would you back up your claim of pre-fall "headship"?



Since Romans doesn't actually say that (or discuss Eve at all), that's something you're reading into the text.



You have not established this. From the beginning they were created, male and female, in God's image. There is no suggestion of any hierarchy until after the fall.



And then we have to unpack what "head" means here. I would say that it is not about control, but about the source of our identity. As a wife might (in the west) take her husband's name and share his family identity, so the Church finds its identity grounded in Christ.

But it's not saying that the woman is an appendage of her husband's, under his command. That stretches the analogy to dangerous places.
Let's take this in little baby steps, then.

First, God created the world (Genesis 2:8)

Second, He created the man and gave him a mission to tend the Garden (Genesis 2:15)

Third, God created the woman to be the man's suitable helper in his mission (Genesis 2:22).

Fourth, they become the first marriage Genesis 2:24).

So one of the first lessons of the Bible is that God gives the man a mission, then he gives the man a suitable helper to accomplish the mission.

The rest of the Bible goes on to expand on this basic example of husband and wife relationships.
 
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Paidiske

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As far as I know, the Christian message of wifely submission is about voluntary submission. If anyone is forcing Christian women to submit, they are not following the Bible at all.

It's not just about "forcing" women to submit. It's about the whole culture that's created where abuse (control) is seen as acceptable, even laudable, because "headship." It's about women who are abused being counselled by others that their Christian duty is to continue to submit, whether their husbands are loving or not. And so on.

It's about the whole twisted understanding where what is supposed to be a one-flesh bond of mutual love, care and service, is understood instead as a power hierarchy.

Neglecting Ephesian 5 due to its supposed misapplication is doing no service to Christians. I can only guess there are ulterior motives for avoiding this passage that have nothing to do with protecting abused women.

Again, we are not neglecting, avoiding or dismissing the passage. Repeating this kind of false accusation seems to me to be dangerously close to goading (which is against forum rules).

I do not neglect the passage. I do not avoid the passage. I apply it robustly; it's simply that I understand it differently from the way you do.
 
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Paul used the Greek word “hupotasso” for what is rendered “subject or submit” and is a Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". OR

In non-military use,it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden". Hupotasso Meaning in Bible - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

Using the military definition of the word “The wife stands behind her husband in all things when her husband stands behind Christ”.

In the non-military meaning, “a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden.”

In relationship to family “A wife cooperates and assumes responsibility with her husband to carry their burden with Christ.” Ephesians 5:22-24

“Husbands, dwell with your spouse according to the gospel knowledge. This knowledge that you have, I want you to honour the wife, because you will be heirs together in the grace of life.” 1 Peter 3:7​

After singling out slaves and exhorting them to be submissive to their masters and patiently endure unjust punishment Peter then moved on to Christian wives who had unsaved husbands. Wives that were seeking to win husbands to the Lord Jesus.

They were going about it the wrong way and Peter corrected them in that. Those husbands were not people who would listen to reason about the gospel so the best sermon was preached by example.

Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behaviour of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 1 Peter 3:1-2​

The pious living being promoted didn't depend on outer adornment to effect the change like they did before they were saved. They were instructed not to appeal to their husband's depraved nature to try to convert them to Christ. 1 Peter 3:3-4

Kosmos - adornment - is the opposite of chaos. Her adornment was to be in keeping with her Christian status. Knowing oneself in one's new nature, the character that proceeds from the heart. So in keeping with her Christian status the way was to confront the husband not with the world but with the Saviour so as not to feed his sin nature but rather appeal to the unbeliever’s conscience from the inner spiritual being. Romans 12:2

No one can serve 2 masters. The term lord referred to near relatives, father, mother etc while John uses the same Greek word to refer to the 'elect lady' in his epistle. "As long as the believing wives are doing good, they need not be afraid with any sudden terror of the account which their unbelieving husbands may exact from them" 1 Peter 3:6-7

So ladies or gents, whenever you are feel unloved, unimportant or insecure, remember the following words and to Whom you belong:

“So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone.

In him the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built together spiritually into a dwelling place for God.”

Ephesians 2:19-22

Christ planted the seeds of mutuality in marriage and of empowering women and children and the underling.


“Christ left an example, that you should follow in his steps. ‘He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.’ When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly…now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls”, 1 Peter 2:21-25​
“In like manner…”​
This is good! I am happy to read this contribution.
 
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Paidiske

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Let's take this in little baby steps, then.

First, God created the world (Genesis 2:8)

Second, He created the man and gave him a mission to tend the Garden (Genesis 2:15)

Third, God created the woman to be the man's suitable helper in his mission (Genesis 2:22).

Fourth, they become the first marriage Genesis 2:24).

So one of the first lessons of the Bible is that God gives the man a mission, then he gives the man a suitable helper to accomplish the mission.

The rest of the Bible goes on to expand on this basic example of husband and wife relationships.

That's one reading of creation. (We also need to take into account the earlier passage, Genesis 1:26-27, where it is clear that male and female are created together in the image of God, and share the work of dominion over the earth).

What is really important, though, is to realise that this does not establish a situation where in every marriage, the man has a mission, and the woman is just there to "help" the man with his mission. (That's not what ezer kenegdo - a term elsewhere used of God - suggests at all about their respective roles). Humankind has a mission, and married couples pursue it together.
 
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It's not just about "forcing" women to submit. It's about the whole culture that's created where abuse (control) is seen as acceptable, even laudable, because "headship." It's about women who are abused being counselled by others that their Christian duty is to continue to submit, whether their husbands are loving or not. And so on.

It's about the whole twisted understanding where what is supposed to be a one-flesh bond of mutual love, care and service, is understood instead as a power hierarchy.



Again, we are not neglecting, avoiding or dismissing the passage. Repeating this kind of false accusation seems to me to be dangerously close to goading (which is against forum rules).

I do not neglect the passage. I do not avoid the passage. I apply it robustly; it's simply that I understand it differently from the way you do.
Please share your detailed understanding of the wifely submission referred to in Ephesian 5 and also 1 Peter 3 which does deal the possibility of a wife being abused by her husband. (Peter's solution: submit).

I suggest that the real problem is that the husbands aren't sacrificing for their wives. That is where I would start looking for a solution to abuse.
 
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Paidiske

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Please share your detailed understanding of the wifely submission referred to in Ephesian 5 and also 1 Peter 3 which does deal the possibility of a wife being abused by her husband. (Peter's solution: submit).

I suggest that the real problem is that the husbands aren't sacrificing for their wives. That is where I would start looking for a solution to abuse.

It's certainly true that the solutions to abuse ultimately lie in changing the attitudes and behaviour of the husbands (which is why refuting interpretations of these passages which can be seen to legitimise abuse - or the expectation that women submit to it - is so important).

That said, my understanding of what healthy, truly Scriptural submission looks like is simple; it is mutual, and it is about love and care and service.

It is not about power. It is not about control. It is not about hierarchy or authority. It is about each spouse choosing to speak and act in ways which cherish, uphold and encourage the other, and about working together by agreement for the good of their marriage, their family, and their community.
 
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It's not about power. It is not about control. It is not about hierarchy or authority. It is about each spouse choosing to speak and act in ways which cherish, uphold and encourage the other, and about working together by agreement for the good of their marriage, their family, and their community.
The worst part is that it took women being ‘allowed’ to speak in church for the truth to come out. Hierarchy becomes blatant (for the supposed learned) underhandedness as well.
 
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It's certainly true that the solutions to abuse ultimately lie in changing the attitudes and behaviour of the husbands (which is why refuting interpretations of these passages which can be seen to legitimise abuse - or the expectation that women submit to it - is so important).

That said, my understanding of what healthy, truly Scriptural submission looks like is simple; it is mutual, and it is about love and care and service.

It is not about power. It is not about control. It is not about hierarchy or authority. It is about each spouse choosing to speak and act in ways which cherish, uphold and encourage the other, and about working together by agreement for the good of their marriage, their family, and their community.
Mutual submission is a good general attitude, but of course, Paul clarifies his meaning in that wives are to submit to their husbands as the church submits to Christ. And husbands are to sacrifice for their wives as Christ sacrificed for the church. This is a fuller explanation of the general position regarding mutual submission.

Are you of the position that the church is co-equal with Christ and that Christ should mutually submit to the church?
 
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Mutual submission is a good general attitude, but of course, Paul clarifies his meaning in that wives are to submit to their husbands as the church submits to Christ. And husbands are to sacrifice for their wives as Christ sacrificed for the church. This is a fuller explanation of the general position regarding mutual submission.

Are you of the position that the church is co-equal with Christ and that Christ should mutually submit to the church?
jafyi u r not Christ. U r the church. U r not looking at it from a spiritual but from flesh. U r not to see Christ that way anymore, no one is.
Besides the fact that God is termed as helpmeet in many more places than women are. But I guess you forgot that already.
 
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Paidiske

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Are you of the position that the church is co-equal with Christ and that Christ should mutually submit to the church?

No. I am of the position that the analogy of Christ and the Church, to marriage, has limitations.

(That is, some things which are true of Christ and the Church help us understand marriage, and some things which are true of marriage help us understand the relationship of Christ and the Church; but not everything which is true of Christ and the Church is true of marriage; and not everything that is true of marriage is true of Christ and the Church).
 
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This is from The Enduring Word commentary series on Galatians 5:22. I trust this series overall and think this passage is excellent.

Ephesians Chapter 5

1. (22) Walking in the light means wives submit to their husbands.
Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

a. Wives: Paul addressed wives and their responsibility in the Christian marriage first. This isn’t because they are the bigger problem or because they need special attention. The reason is that the apostle was particularly concerned about this question of submission. That was the principle that he introduced in Ephesians 5:21. This aspect of submission has a particular application to wives in a Christian marriage.

i. The same logic continues on into Ephesians 6. Children are addressed before parents because Paul was primarily concerned about submission. Slaves are addressed before their masters because the apostle was primarily concerned about submission.

ii. There is no question that the apostle is continuing the thought from Ephesians 5:21, submitting to one another in the fear of God. In many of the best ancient Greek manuscripts, Ephesians 5:22 doesn’t even have the word submit. It simply reads wives, to your own husbands. The topic is submission and Paul focused on a particularly important realm of submission – the Christian marriage, from the wife unto the husband.

iii. It is as if Paul said this: “I commanded you to submit to one another in a very general way. Now, if you do it in a general way, how much more so should wives do it to their own husbands in this special relationship of marriage.”

b. Wives, submit: To submit means that you recognize someone has legitimate authority over you. It means you recognize that there is an order of authority, and that you are part of a unit, a team. You as an individual are not more important that the working of the unit or the team.

i. When we submit to God, we recognize God’s authority and act accordingly. When we submit to the police, we recognize the authority of the police and act accordingly. When we submit to our employer, we recognize the authority of our employer and act accordingly.

ii. Submission does not mean inferiority. As well, submission does not mean silence. Submission means “sub-mission.” There is a mission for the Christian marriage, and that mission is obeying and glorifying God. The wife says, “I’m going to put myself under that mission. That mission is more important than my individual desires. I’m not putting myself below my husband, I’m putting myself below the mission God has for our marriage, for my life.”

c. To your own husbands: This defines the sphere of a wife’s submission. The Bible never commands a general submission of women unto men in society. This order is commanded only in the spheres of the home and in the church. God has not commanded in His word that men have exclusive authority in the areas of politics, business, education, and so on.

d. As to the Lord: This is a crucial phrase. It colors everything else we understand about this passage. There have been two main wrong interpretations of this phrase, each favoring a certain position.

i. The wrong interpretation that the interpretation that favors the husband says that as to the Lord means that a wife should submit to her husband as if he were God himself. The idea is “you submit to God in absolutely everything without question, so you must submit to your husband in the same absolute way.” This interpretation believes thatthe words “as to the Lord”defines the extent of submission.

ii. This is wrong. It is true that the wife owes the husband a great deal of respect. Peter sets this across when he praises Sarah, the wife of Abraham, as an example of a godly wife, when she called Abraham “Lord.” That doesn’t mean “Lord” in the sense of God, but “Lord” in the sense of “master.” That is a lot of respect. Yet still, it doesn’t go as far as to say, “You submit completely to God, so you must submit to your husband the same way.” Simply put, in no place does the Scripture say that a person should submit to another in that way. There are limits to the submission your employer can expect of you. There are limits to the submission the government can expect of you. There are limits to the submission parents can expect of children. In no place does the Scripture teach an unqualified, without exception, submission – except to God and God alone. To violate this is to commit the sin of idolatry.

iii. The wrong interpretation that favors the wife says that as to the Lord means “I’ll submit to him as long as he does what the Lord wants.” Then the wife often thinks it is her job to decide what the Lord wants. This interpretation thinks that as to the Lord defines the limit of submission.

iv. This is wrong. It is true that there are limits to a wife’s submission; but when the wife approaches as to the Lord in this way, it degenerates into a case of “I’ll submit to my husband when I agree with him. I’ll submit to him when he makes the right decisions and carries them out the right way. When he makes a wrong decision, he isn’t in the Lord, so I shouldn’t submit to him then.” That is not submission at all. Except for those who are plainly cantankerous and argumentative, everyone submits to others when they are in agreement. It is only when there is a disagreement that submission is tested.

e. As to the Lord does not define the extent of a wife’s submission or the limit of a wife’s submission. It defines the motive of a wife’s submission.

i. “It means: ‘Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands because it is a part of your duty to the Lord, because it is an expression of your submission to the Lord.’ Or, ‘Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands; do it in this way, do it as a part of your submission to the Lord.’ In other words, you are not doing it only for the husband, you are doing it primarily for the Lord Himself… You are doing it for Christ’s sake, you are doing it because you know that He exhorts you to do it, because it is well-pleasing in His sight that you should be doing it. It is part of your Christian behaviour, it is a part of your discipleship.” (Lloyd-Jones)

ii. “For the Lord’s sake who commanded it, so that ye cannot be subject to him without being subject to them.” (Clarke)

iii. As to the Lord means…

· A wife’s submission to her husband is part of her Christian life and obedience.

· When a wife doesn’t obey this word to submit to your own husband, as to the Lord, she isn’t only falling short as a wife. She is falling short as a follower of Jesus Christ.

· This is completely out of the realm of the wife’s nature or personality.

· This has nothing to do with a husband’s intelligence, giftedness, or capability. It has to do with honoring the Lord Jesus Christ.

· This has nothing to do with whether or not the husband is right on a particular issue. It has to do with Jesus being right.

· This means that a woman should take great care in how she chooses her husband. Instead of looking for an attractive man, instead of looking for a wealthy man, instead of looking for a romantic man, a woman should first look for a man she can respect. G. Campbell Morgan recalls the story of the older Christian woman who had never married, and she explained, “I never met a man who could master me.” She had the right idea.

· If you want to please Jesus, if you want to honor Him, then submit to your own husband as to the Lord.

iv. “There can be no more compelling motive for any action than this; and every Christian wife who is concerned above everything else to please the Lord Jesus Christ, will find no difficulty in this paragraph; indeed it will be her greatest delight to do what the Apostle tells us here.” (Lloyd-Jones)

You are entitled to your opinion. I disagree as, obviously, do many others. I spent time working as a domestic relations hearing officer when I first entered to practice of law. I saw far to many women abused by their husbands who insisted that they submit.

Do not say that mY girlfriend is falling short as either a girlfriend or a Christian by engaging in a relationship of mutual submission which is what our relationship is. She is pleasing Jesus, she is honoring the Lord.
 
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