The pre-tribulation rapture lie [moved]

rockytopva said:

What part of "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." are folks not understanding?

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. - Matthew
24

Click to expand...

Why posts these verses and leave out the rest of the chapter, which in fact does "announce" the timing of Christ's return.

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

No one knows the day or hour but the signs are given so that the time will not overtake anyone as a thief. He only comes like a thief for those not on watch. There's a great falling away coming (apostasy) and that's why the signs are so important to watch for. Paul had to even write a second letter to the Thessalonians because they too, were confused.

I do have a question for you. Since Christ has said he has foretold us all things. What is the very first verse that you think he teaches a rapture in the NT? Just curious.

JulieB67 said:

I do have a question for you. Since Christ has said he has foretold us all things. What is the very first verse that you think he teaches a rapture in the NT? Just curious.

Click to expand...

Except He didn't. That's why Paul reveals the 'mystery' of the rapture, at least for us, in 1 Corinthians 15:51. It's a coming not revealed clearly in the gospels. As such, when places like Matthew 24 is used to imply that coming is the next coming, they are ignoring the fact the gathering of His Church had not yet been revealed, requiring that it be a completely separate event.

keras said:

This is where people simply fail to read the Promises of God to His people. Many verses say He will protect His own during the hard times ahead, but Revelation 12:14 tells us He will actually take His faithful people to a place of safety, [on earth] for the period of the Great Tribulation. The 1260 days, 42 months, or 3 1/2 years that the 'beast' has world control. Revelation 13:5-8
Then, at the Return of Jesus, He will send out His angels to gather those people to meet Him in the clouds, then to be His priests and co-rulers for the Millennium.

Click to expand...

I agree... He will take His people away from the danger, to a place of safety.. It will be called the rapture.

JacksBratt said:

Thanks for your view....

Just what are you planning on doing for the, at least 3.5 years, when you can not work, buy, sell, travel... and have to hide from every single other human who has the mark and will turn you in... in a heart beat?

What are your plans for you, your family, your three year old, your 85 year old mother... Just how do you navigate that?

Then, when the rapture comes.. there will be what... two or three living Christians who survive.. And that's who he was talking to.. while the rest of the Christians are "dead in Christ"?

Seriously... how many do you think will survive running, hiding, scrounging for food shelter, medical help... for 3.5 years?

But... comfort yourself... you two last living believers.. you will see your brethren again....if you keep your head long enough.. oh.. what comfort.

Click to expand...

I don't expect to survive the tribulation. I expect that I would suffer and probably die to violence.
I build my house on the rock to weather the storm.
In my current life now? My own body persecutes me (quite literally, as it's my own immune system that wants to kill me). In a way, it prepares me for what I may have to endure, and I am comforted by knowing that if I die in a prison, I will be raised up. If am beaten to death in the streets or beheaded, I will be raised up. If starve to death in the woods fleeing for safety, I will be raised up. If I'm beaten and tortured and starved but not killed, I will still be looking forward to being raised up.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52

also, I don't think that the mark of the beast and beheadings part of the great tribulation will be 3.5 years. The Beast will have 1290 days of reigning before the Abomination of Desolation happens. (Daniel 12:11), and we know that the Great Tribulation days will be cut short for the elect's sake (Matthew 24:22). So we may only see a few months of that level of persecution. Before the Abomination of Desolation we'll have all kinds of problems though, war, pestilence, famine, 1/4 of the earth's population dying. I might not even make it to the abomination of desolation if all of it started today. It's okay though we pass from death into life.
I cannot be sure, but it does make me wonder about the meaning of Daniel 12:12. There is some blessing. Is it the rapture? I don't know, but there is a blessing if a person endures for 45 days (a month and a half) after the Abomination of Desolation.
Israel (the woman in Revelation 12) will be provided for in the wilderness when persecution comes to the Jews who do not accept the antichrist as their messiah for 1260 days.

JacksBratt said:

I agree... a end of the trib rapture would not be much of a surprise.. but one tomorrow would be.

Also, "it will be as it was in the days of Noah" where God lifted the 8 believers up and out of the carnage...

Also, "it will be as in the days of Sodom and Gomorrah" when the angels took Lot and his family out of the range of the carnage.

He did not compare it to the days of Moses.. when the Hebrews were there and witnessed the plagues.. nope.

Click to expand...

and what about those believers? Were they not warned about a flood coming? They knew what to expect. Jesus told us what to expect, the flood that we'd have to endure.

Except He didn't. That's why Paul reveals the 'mystery' of the rapture, at least for us, in 1 Corinthians 15:51.

Click to expand...

The mystery is not the rapture, it's that "all" will be changed at the last trump. It doesn't say some are secretly taken away. It says "all are changed" at the last trump. And we will be. All bodies must put on incorruptible bodies at that time. And last trump means -farthest, final, ends of, last, lowest, uttermost. That's the 7th trump.

Where does it say in those verses, some are taken away?

And poor Paul. His first letter to the Thessalonians confused them (probably chapter 4:17) them so much he had to write a second letter to them to clear up their confusion and he nails down the signs and the timing in 2nd Thessalonians. Again, nothing about a rapture but warnings not to be deceived by any means. Christ gives out these same warnings in the gospels. I will take their word for it.

SeventyOne said:

Except He didn't.

Click to expand...

Right! Jesus didn't teach a 'rapture to heaven'. Paul never taught it either.
Instead He taught that such a thing was impossible:
Jesus said:
John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…
Jesus is talking about the things of heaven, truths that apply forever.


John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
A plain statement that also applies forever.


John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
Our home is the earth, we are earth people and not spirits and even after the Millennium, those worthy will become immortal, but will still remain on earth. Revelation 21:1-4


John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Jesus was talking to God and what He asked applies to all Christians. Remember: we pray for God’s Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven and it will, with the New Jerusalem.


Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.
This refers to every faithful Christian, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, they shall reign on earth. That is our destiny, we never go to heaven, only our souls if we are martyred. Revelation 6:9-11

keras said:

John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…
Jesus is talking about the things of heaven, truths that apply forever

Click to expand...

Being caught up in the air isn't the same thing as being caught up to heaven

keras said:

Right! Jesus didn't teach a 'rapture to heaven'. Paul never taught it either.
Instead He taught that such a thing was impossible:
Jesus said:
John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…
Jesus is talking about the things of heaven, truths that apply forever.


John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
A plain statement that also applies forever.


John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
Our home is the earth, we are earth people and not spirits and even after the Millennium, those worthy will become immortal, but will still remain on earth. Revelation 21:1-4


John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Jesus was talking to God and what He asked applies to all Christians. Remember: we pray for God’s Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven and it will, with the New Jerusalem.


Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.
This refers to every faithful Christian, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, they shall reign on earth. That is our destiny, we never go to heaven, only our souls if we are martyred. Revelation 6:9-11

Click to expand...

Yes. I've read your interpretation of select verses on this topic while excluding others. You really don't need to waste time on me. I don't find any validity in your personal interpretations.

JulieB67 said:

And last trump means -farthest, final, ends of, last, lowest, uttermost. That's the 7th trump.

Click to expand...

And you know that how? Sounds like an unfounded assumption to me.

Where does it say in those verses, some are taken away?

And poor Paul. His first letter to the Thessalonians confused them (probably chapter 4:17) them so much he had to write a second letter to them to clear up their confusion and he nails down the signs and the timing in 2nd Thessalonians. Again, nothing about a rapture but warnings not to be deceived by any means. Christ gives out these same warnings in the gospels. I will take their word for it.

Click to expand...

Sorry to say, but your stance on the rapture means you have been deceived. in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul tells us about those who will be resurrected in Christ, then mentions 3 occurrences, he calls them 'orders'. One already past and two future. Your theology ignores an entire coming. Huge gap. You need to fix that.

SeventyOne said:

And you know that how? Sounds like an unfounded assumption to me.

Click to expand...

1 Corinthians 15:52 says that we will be changed at the last Trumpet. Shouldn't that infer that we will endure all the other trumpets before rapture? Jw

friend of said:

1 Corinthians 15:52 says that we will be changed at the last Trumpet. Shouldn't that infer that we will endure all the other trumpets before rapture? Jw

Click to expand...

a caveat. I don't think that the last trump means the 7th trumpet during the wrath of God. Because that's not the timing that Revelation gives, the signs that Jesus told His disciples in the Olivet Discourse happen at the opening of the 6th seal, the 7 trumpets of God's wrath happen after the 7th seal. 2 different kinds of trumpets. 1 calling home the faithful, the other 7 calling out the wrath of God.

SeventyOne said:

And you know that how? Sounds like an unfounded assumption to me.

Click to expand...

Not an assumption, I do not study that way. I'm just taking it back to the Greek.

SeventyOne said:

Sorry to say, but your stance on the rapture means you have been deceived. in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul tells us about those who will be resurrected in Christ, then mentions 3 occurrences, he calls them 'orders'. One already past and two future. Your theology ignores an entire coming. Huge gap. You need to fix that.

Click to expand...

Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

I Corinthians 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Everything happens at the last trump. What orders are you talking about? We have to let the bible speak for itself and take it as a whole. 1st Corinthians 15:52 mirrors 1st Thessalonians 4:16 and 17,

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Paul goes on in chapter 5 because the subject hasn't changed,

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need
that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night

He calls this event that he's describing in chapter 4, the day of the Lord.


And since the Thessalonians were confused by this letter he writes them a second one,


I Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

Paul can't make it any clearer. They too thought that Christ could come at any time. He tells them not to be confused even by their letter that the day of Christ was at hand. And then tells them what must happen before our gathering back to him. He's talking about "one day"

SeventyOne said:

Your theology ignores an
entire coming

Click to expand...

No offense but to me, your's adds an entire coming. I've never seen one verse that refers to anything other than Christ coming back at the last trump, which is the 7th.

And this is coming from someone who used to believe in a pretrib rapture. I believed until I was in my mid 30's. I am 52 now. And that was because I was taught early on this doctrine in church. So believe me, I have seen the verses, the debates, etc. If I thought a pretrib rapture was biblical, I would not have stopped believing in one.

JulieB67 said:

Not an assumption, I do not study that way. I'm just taking it back to the Greek.



Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

I Corinthians 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Everything happens at the last trump. What orders are you talking about? We have to let the bible speak for itself and take it as a whole. 1st Corinthians 15:52 mirrors 1st Thessalonians 4:16 and 17,

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Paul goes on in chapter 5 because the subject hasn't changed,

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need
that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night

He calls this event that he's describing in chapter 4, the day of the Lord.


And since the Thessalonians were confused by this letter he writes them a second one,


I Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

Paul can't make it any clearer. They too thought that Christ could come at any time. He tells them not to be confused even by their letter that the day of Christ was at hand. And then tells them what must happen before our gathering back to him. He's talking about "one day"



No offense but to me, your's adds an entire coming. I've never seen one verse that refers to anything other than Christ coming back at the last trump, which is the 7th.

And this is coming from someone who used to believe in a pretrib rapture. I believed until I was in my mid 30's. I am 52 now. And that was because I was taught early on this doctrine in church. So believe me, I have seen the verses, the debates, etc. If I thought a pretrib rapture was biblical, I would not have stopped believing in one.

Click to expand...

and I was just talking about how not to associate Jesus coming in the clouds with the 7th trumpet judgement..
They're two different things, unless you believe that God is going to pour His wrath out on His elect. It's one thing to think God is going to let His servants be killed by the wicked, it's another entirely to have God killing His servants with judgement that was reserved for the wicked.
1 Thessalonians 5:9

Revelation 6:12-13 is the same events as Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, revelation 7 follows by starting "And after these things", introducing us to the 144,000, which are specifically sealed to be protect from the wrath of God, the wrath is not poured out until they're sealed.
and secondly, Revelation 7:9-14, key words "And after this", and "These are they which came out of great tribulation,"
To me, that's the rapture. You have a ton of new people in Heaven that John could not count and the 24 Elders didn't know.

Revelation 8:1 begins "And when he had opened the seventh seal"

So, using that timing we have the first 5 seals (Great Tribulation), the 6th seal which is the sun and moon darkening, the 144,000 sealed, before any wrath on the earth happens, and a great multitude of new people in heaven, THEN the 7th seal, and then the 7 trumpets.
So if the rapture is not occuring after the 6th seal but before the 7th, what exactly did happen that there are a great multitude of new people in heaven?

friend of said:

1 Corinthians 15:52 says that we will be changed at the last Trumpet. Shouldn't that infer that we will endure all the other trumpets before rapture? Jw

Click to expand...

Nope. Not at all. 'Last' doesn't automatically mean the last ever. For example, if I'm over at your home and you set out a snack tray and I tell I just ate the last cookie. Do you infer the last cookie on that tray or the last cookie anywhere on earth? Of course, the last cookie on the tray. Context dictates the meaning of the word 'last'. There is no context in that letter pertaining to the Revelation trumpets. However, that letter does have a rather heavy feast/festival language throughout its entirety. So when he mentions trumpets, what the readers have in mind are the feasts. there are at least two feasts where the last trumpet can be assigned, Pentecost and Feast of Trumpets.

In this case, the trumpet is described as the trumpet of God. The only other assembly where that has happened was when the trump of God blew at the base of Mt. Sinai in Exodus 19 when the Lord came down and Moses ascended up to meet Him, on the day that was the first Pentecost as the people of God.

JulieB67 said:

Not an assumption, I do not study that way. I'm just taking it back to the Greek.



Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

I Corinthians 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Everything happens at the last trump. What orders are you talking about? We have to let the bible speak for itself and take it as a whole. 1st Corinthians 15:52 mirrors 1st Thessalonians 4:16 and 17,

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Paul goes on in chapter 5 because the subject hasn't changed,

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need
that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night

He calls this event that he's describing in chapter 4, the day of the Lord.


And since the Thessalonians were confused by this letter he writes them a second one,


I Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

Paul can't make it any clearer. They too thought that Christ could come at any time. He tells them not to be confused even by their letter that the day of Christ was at hand. And then tells them what must happen before our gathering back to him. He's talking about "one day"



No offense but to me, your's adds an entire coming. I've never seen one verse that refers to anything other than Christ coming back at the last trump, which is the 7th.

And this is coming from someone who used to believe in a pretrib rapture. I believed until I was in my mid 30's. I am 52 now. And that was because I was taught early on this doctrine in church. So believe me, I have seen the verses, the debates, etc. If I thought a pretrib rapture was biblical, I would not have stopped believing in one.

Click to expand...

Well, I'm sorry you exchanged the truth for a lie. See post 157 if you want to see my response about the trumpets.

Odd thing is that this topic is almost academic at this point since we are exceedingly close to the pre-trib rapture.

JulieB67 said:

Where does it say in those verses, some are taken away?

Click to expand...

Contrary to popular belief, Elect will not be taken in a "secret" rapture or in a blink of an eye. Rather, the bodies of the Elect will be changed while we are on Earth... at the last trump. However, there is Scripture that we will be raptured out to meet with Jesus Christ in the air.


When the trumpet sounds, it will be the 7th and the last, when Christ shall appear in the sky and he sends his angels to gather all of his "alive and remains" Elect on Earth to be brought to Jesus in the air.


Any Elect who are still "alive and remain" on Earth when the last trump sounds, their bodies will be changed to incorruptible and awaits for the angels to pick them up and bring them to the air while everyone else, including the unsaved, will witness it in terror. Just like Elisha saw Elijah gone into heaven.

You will need to learn to compare Scripture with Scripture instead of taking a single verse out of context and say, "see, there is no rapture." So yes, there will be rapture for the Elect who are still alive and remain when the Last Trump sounds. And they will enjoy a flight to the air to be with Christ.

Jamdoc said:

unless you believe that God is going to pour His wrath out on His elect

Click to expand...

I believe God can pour out his wrath and not hurt the elect.

The seals are for knowledge.

I don't like to use the word rapture. I believe Christ returns at the 7th trump. And the remnant are still here at the end of the 6th trump and before the 7th sounds,


Revelation 11:13 "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

Revelation 11:14 "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly."

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Immediately when the 7th trump sounds, the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of the Lord's.

TribulationSigns said:

Contrary to popular belief, Elect will not be taken in a "secret" rapture or in a blink of an eye. Rather, the bodies of the Elect will be changed while we are on Earth... at the last trump.

Click to expand...

Not sure why you're telling me this. I said "all" are changed at the last trump. Which is what the scripture says. And I believe it will be on Earth, yes.

TribulationSigns said:

You will need to learn to compare Scripture with Scripture instead of taking a single verse out of context

Click to expand...

Again, not sure what you're talking about. I posted plenty of scriptures from more than one book. I posted all of the verses in 1st Corinthians 15 that pertained to the subject. Then compared them to the ones in 1st Thessalonians 4 showing their similarities and then went further into the subject with chapter 5 and 2nd Thessalonians. I also posted the Matthew 24 scriptures in another verse prior to that. I've always said the bible needs to be taken as a whole and read that way. We wouldn't read any other book that way and the bible most especially. What single verse did I take out of context?

And yes, I believe we will all be changed and meet the Lord in the air when he returns at the last trump.

JulieB67 said:

Again, not sure what you're talking about.

Click to expand...

Sorry, I was responding to your specific post, #148, as a clarification for others who believe otherwise as extra support for your position.

And yes, I believe we will all be changed and meet the Lord in the air when he returns at the last trump.

Click to expand...

That is good.