If We Won't Hear Moses; Will We Hear Messiah?

I should clarify that "spiritual rebirth" pertains to the 3000 converts on that day. The pouring out of the Spirit on the disciples who were prepared pertains more to receiving an anointing for ministry; being empowered.
Would you compare this to Timothy receiving the anointing of apostleship by "the laying on of hands of the elders", or the 12 at Ephesus who received a baptism together from Paul, which began one of the most fruitful times of ministry in Acts?

HARK! said:

(CLV) Lk 16:29
Yet Abraham is saying to him, `They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them!'

(CLV) Lk 16:30
Yet he said, `Not, father Abraham, but if someone should be going to them from the dead, they will be repenting.'

(CLV) Lk 16:31
Yet he said to him, `If Moses and the prophets they are not hearing, neither will they be persuaded if someone should be rising from among the dead.'"

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Jesus said we would not hear though one rises from the dead (Christ) if we reject scripture.

HARK! said:

This is the gospel. It's a message of repentance.

It is a message of repentance of sin, and not one that you'll find in the Decalogue; oh, no, no, no, you'll have to go digging deep into YHWH's perfect Torah to find this one.

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I got saved without one reference to the old testament. Why live in the shadows when you can live in the light?

HARK! said:

How is that?

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The preacher was my boss, a Methodist who was an evangelist at heart. He told me about God's holiness and perfection. He asked me how I stacked up. I was convicted of being a sinner. Like the crowd on the day of Pentecost, I asked what could I do? Then he told me the good news that Lord Jesus had died and so paid the price of all my sin and rose again from the dead. There was a lot more than that, but that's the short version. I accepted Christ there and then. My burden of guilt lifted immediately. I knew that I was different, although I could not explain why. That was 49 years ago. I went to a church where the preacher was deeply religious and tried to put the people under the law. I decided to do an in depth study for myself. I came to the conclusion that he was wrong. The law has a place, but it is the shadow of the reality that has now come.

HARK! said:

Wow! How can one be convicted of being a sinner; without understanding the definition if sin? The Torah defines sin.



Paul tells us the law's place.

(CLV) Ga 3:24
So that the law has become our escort to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.

The law has escorted me close to Messiah; but I still don't have that walking on water thing down. I'm curious; do your tzitzits stay dry as you cross large bodies of water?

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Walking on water does not save you, faith in the finished work of Christ at Calvary, including His resurrection, saves you. When my body is redeemed, which is a future aspect of salvation, I'll be walking on water, through walls and such.

Wow! How can one be convicted of being a sinner; without understanding the definition if sin? The Torah defines sin.
Everyone has a conscience. Do you not accept Paul's assertions? Romans 2:

12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Every society has laws. If and individual violates his own conscience, he will suffer guilt. That was exactly my problem. I grew up in a godless home, but with certain standards. Ask atheists about their standard of right behaviour. They think they are most righteous. My dad was an atheist. The Bible was not permitted in our home.

HARK! said:

Can you prove this with scripture?

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You have your understanding of the Bible, I have mine. I've had enough of this discussion. If you want the full version of what I believe, read the following:

Are you absolutely sure you are born again? - Christian Life Frankston

Aussie Pete said:

Do you not accept Paul's assertions? Romans 2:

12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

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I love that section of Romans 2 reminding us that some gentiles without the Bible -- go to heaven.

And ends like this

26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

We cannot obey Messiah if we do not obey Moses, as Messiah taught obedience to Moses.

HARK! said:

(CLV) Lk 16:29
Yet Abraham is saying to him, `They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them!'

(CLV) Lk 16:30
Yet he said, `Not, father Abraham, but if someone should be going to them from the dead, they will be repenting.'

(CLV) Lk 16:31
Yet he said to him, `If Moses and the prophets they are not hearing, neither will they be persuaded if someone should be rising from among the dead.'"

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I agree. This is essentially saying that if you reject the OT in the Bible, then there is nothing left to say.

Mari_magdel said:

I agree. This is essentially saying that if you reject the OT in the Bible, then there is nothing left to say.

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Jesus mentions "though someone rises from the dead" - which of course - Jesus did.

He is saying "if you won't listen to scripture then you will not pay close attention to me - the Savior who will rise from the dead".

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HARK! said:

(CLV) Lk 16:29
Yet Abraham is saying to him, `They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them!'

(CLV) Lk 16:30
Yet he said, `Not, father Abraham, but if someone should be going to them from the dead, they will be repenting.'

(CLV) Lk 16:31
Yet he said to him, `If Moses and the prophets they are not hearing, neither will they be persuaded if someone should be rising from among the dead.'"

Click to expand...

Glory of the New Covenant
1 Corinthians 3:
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech—
13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel
could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted
in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord,
are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory,
just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

The Law without The Spirit of the Lord Is The Ministry Of Death
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious,
so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses
because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory,
the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.