Resurrection, First Resurrection and New Birth

rwb said:

From the beginning of the New Covenant Gospel age. Blessed are those who die for the Lord, because the Lord had died for them. From this moment on, is from the resurrection of Christ until the end of this age.

Rev 14 begins with a vision of the 144,000 remnant of Old Covenant faithful saints. I believe they are also depicted as souls under the altar in Rev 6, and the 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel in Rev 7. Like other visions in Revelation the vision begins with the ending of the Old Covenant faithful then vs 6 goes forward to the everlasting gospel being preached unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. After giving us a picture of the fall of Babylon, we jump down to vs 13 where we get a picture of the harvesting of the earth as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth. So the time period of Rev 14 covers the whole New Covenant Gospel era, beginning with a picture of the Old Covenant firstfruits unto God and the Lamb in heaven and before the throne, then the judgment the Gospel brings as it is preached in the power of the Spirit unto all the earth.

Babylon is a depiction of every great city upon the earth. In this vision of Rev 14 I believe she is symbolizing the fall of Jerusalem and the temple. The next image is that of the mark of the beast, everyone refusing Christ and His Gospel, remaining in darkness and unbelief have the mark of the beast in his forehead or hand. The forehead symbolizing the thoughts of fallen man, and the hand symbolizing the works of fallen man. They are the ones who receive the wrath of God, and will be tormented. And the everlasting gospel is preached unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. Why are they tormented? Because they heard the Gospel and remained in unbelief. The Gospel was not mixed with faith for them so they will suffer the second death and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.

The vision ends vs 13-20 with the harvest of the earth, as the Gospel is preached unto all nations. The Gospel will either bring eternal life or everlasting damnation. So John's final vision in chapter 14 shows us the harvest with the reapers (angels) separating the tares from the wheat.

John 3:18 (KJV) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

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shilohsfoal said:

You believe the new covenent gospel age started with those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark?

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, "Blessed are the dead--those who die in the Lord from this moment on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them."

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rwb said:

The New Covenant Gospel age began when Christ came and ushered in the Kingdom of Heaven that anyone may spiritually enter when he/she is born from above, or born of the Spirit. The Old Covenant faithful saints have part in the resurrection of Christ through promise. They looked forward to Messiah who would come, and now we who live after His coming look back to His cross.

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Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Nope. Do you reject it?

Jesus died physically and was resurrected physically. He is the firsfruits of them that died (same as "them that slept").

Please read my post #159 properly.

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Fullness of the Gentiles said:

I asked some questions in another thread and received the following correct replies:

1. Would humans be able to be with God in heaven if they are not in Christ?

No, you must be born again to see or enter the Kingdom of God.

2. Do humans have to be born of the Spirit to be in Christ?

Yes.

SCRIPTURES RELATING TO THE RESURRECTION

1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit (aparche), and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

The above is referring to a bodily resurrection. Let's see if we can ascertain if any of the verses below are referring to a spiritual resurrection:

(A) BODILY RESURRECTION

John 6:40 (words of Christ): And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Cor 6:14 And God has both raised up the Lord, and also will raise us up by His own power.

NOTE 1:

There is no New Testament verse where the Greek word anastasis (resurrection) is talking about anything other than the bodily resurrection of the dead. See for example:-

Mat 22:23; Mark 12:18; Luk 2:34; Luk 20:27; John 5:29; Acts:- 4:2; 17:18; 17:32; 23:8; 24:15; 2 Tim 2:18).

NOTE 2:

Likewise, there is no New Testament verse speaking about being raised up from death that is not speaking of being raised up bodily - they all refer to the bodily resurrection from the dead, example:-

Matthew:- 11:5; 16:21; 17:23; Mark:- 6:14; 14;28; Luke:- 7:22; 9:22; 20:37; John:- 12:1 & 9 & 17; Acts:- 2:24 & 32; 3:15 & 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30 & 34 & 37; Romans:- 4:24 & 25; 6:4 &9; 7:4; 8:11 & 34; 10:9; 1 Cor 6:14; 1 Cor 15:12-17 & 29 & 32 & 35 & 42-44 & 52-54; Gal 1:1; 1 Thess 1:10; 2 Tim 2:8; 1 Pet 1:21; Rev 1:18.

Romans 8
10 and if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, and the Spirit is life because of righteousness,
11 But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you.

CHRIST'S RESURRECTION:

Rom 4:22 And therefore (Abraham's faith) was imputed to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised (egeiro) up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised (egeiro) again for our justification.

As we can see, the bodily resurrection from the dead is a major theme in the New Testament, and is a major part of the gospel.

(B) BEING BORN FROM ABOVE

John 3:3 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again (Greek: anothen), he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Strongs: G509
00509 G509 ἄνωθεν anōthen an'-o-then
From G507; from above; by analogy from the first; by implication anew: - from above again from the beginning (very first) the top.

JOhn 3:3 Young's Literal Translation
Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'

John 3:5-7 (Young's Literal Translation)

Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;

that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.

Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;

Compare the above with John's statement below:

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,
John 1:13 who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.

CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS BASED ON THE ABOVE FACTS
(you can answer them if you like but I'm not demanding you do - I'm placing them here for consideration):-

1. Have we risen from the dead bodily?

2. Does being born from above imply birth, or bodily resurrection from death?

3. Did we die for the sins of the world and rise again from the dead? Or did Christ die for the sins of the world (and our sins) and rise again from the dead?

4. If we are born from above by the Spirit, and the Spirit is Christ's Spirit, are we IN HIM who died and rose again from the dead by virtue of our birth?

5. Are we in Christ who died for our sins and rose from the dead positionally by virtue of our having been born of His Spirit and by virtue of His bodily resurrection?

Or is it by virtue of our resurrection?

6. Are those who are born from above and found in Christ found IN HIM due to their works?

Or are they born from above and found in Christ because of Christ's works?

7. Did Christ rise again from the dead spiritually, or did He rise again from the dead bodily?

8. Remember that we are told, regarding the resurrection:

Rom 6:3 Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection;

1 Cor 15
20 And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits (aparche) of those sleeping he became,
for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again (anastasis, resurrection) of the dead,
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit (aparche), and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

Therefore, bearing in mind that the Greek word anastasis (resurrection) and the concept of being raised from death in the New Testament is always talking about the BODILY resurrection, does the following mean that we are resurrected already?:-

Eph 2:6 and has raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,

Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from the dead.

Col 3:1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God.

9. Does Eph 2:6 and Col 3:1 mean that we are already resurrected?

Or does it mean that we are not yet resurrected, but we are POSITIONALLY in Christ who is risen?

10. When in time does Paul say we will be resurrected?

11. Does being born from above mean we are resurrected?

AM I WRONG to say the following?

From all that the New Testament says regarding the resurrection, am I wrong to say that:-

1. NOWHERE in the New Testament do we see being born again from above by the Spirit of Christ being called a "resurrection" - we HAVE TO read such a notion INTO the scriptures in order to maintain that belief.

2. By virtue of our birth from above we are found IN CHRIST who died and was raised, and therefore we are now positionally with Him and have been raised with Him - THIS FACT is the guarantee, the deposit, of our coming inheritance in Christ, and our resurrection:

Rom 8:23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope; for what anyone sees, why does he also hope for it?

3. By virtue of our birth from above we are NOW positionally in Christ's death and resurrection because for those who have been born from above by the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Christ lives in our spirit, and our spirit lives in our soul, and our soul lives in our body. This is why we cannot die:

John 11: 25 Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection and the Life! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live.
John 11:26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?

NOT THE HOUSE THAT JACK BUILT BUT THE HOUSE THAT GOD BUILT

Christ in us and we in Him (John 15:4). God's Spirit in our spirit, our spirit in our soul and our soul in our body

- but this is not the house that Jack built - it's the house that God built:

1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1Cor 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God shall destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.

Therefore we live in the knowledge that because of Christ's resurrection (which is a bodily resurrection), THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN BORN FROM ABOVE will be bodily resurrected when Christ returns - but those who have died in Christ will rise first and those who are still alive will be changed and rise up together with them, to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:16-18).

AM I WRONG TO CONCLUDE THE FOLLOWING:

1. Due to the fact that NOWHERE does the New Testament call being born from above either a "resurrection", nor "the first Resurrection", those who read "first resurrection" into a birth of the Spirit from above, are reading INTO the New Testament what is not there?

2. The scriptures show, when using exegesis instead of eisegesis, that the first (protos) resurrection following Christ's, who is the firsfruit (aparche) of the resurrection, is this one:

1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit (aparche), and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;

and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

This is the first (protos) resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev 20:3-6).

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sovereigngrace said:

I believe, this lack of corroboration (supporting Scripture with Scripture) that you concede, is at the core of why many reject the Premil theory. This is where your school of thought falls down. Corroboration is fundamental to understanding any truth in Scripture. Without it you are left with private interpretation.

The Reformers introduced a very solid interpretative system that was based on the crucial principle of supporting Scripture with Scripture. They used this to dismantle Roman Catholic heresy. They required corroborative evidence to support their opinion of any given text. This was to prevent error and to aid our understanding of truth.

Corroboration is said to be “evidence that tends to support a proposition that is already supported by some initial evidence, therefore confirming the proposition.”

Sound theologians have employed this important principle to avoid speculative interpretation and the damage of forcing a meaning on a text that contradicts repeated Scripture.

Anyone that is a student of this Book (and theology) will know the importance of this great demand. Anyone that has ever been involved in law will also know how essential it is in proving a fact.

Most Christians are aware of the crucial mandate of 2 Peter 1:20: “no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.”

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sovereigngrace said:

The Reformers introduced a very solid interpretative system that was based on the crucial principle of supporting Scripture with Scripture. They used this to dismantle Roman Catholic heresy. They required corroborative evidence to support their opinion of any given text. This was to prevent error and to aid our understanding of truth.

Corroboration is said to be “evidence that tends to support a proposition that is already supported by some initial evidence, therefore confirming the proposition.”

Sound theologians have employed this important principle to avoid speculative interpretation and the damage of forcing a meaning on a text that contradicts repeated Scripture.

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shilohsfoal said:

So if this verse has anything to do with the new Covenant gosple age why doesn't it say so?
In context it is speaking of the beast, it's image and its mark. Are you saying the new Covenant gosple age is the beast, it's image and its mark?

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, "Blessed are the dead--those who die in the Lord from this moment on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them."

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nolidad said:

Well set your alarm, wake up and review all the threads about teh trib and you will behold I have posted hundreds of SCriptures!

And Amillenial covenant allegorical theology is the height of private interpretation. What I think you hate is that pre mi, pre trib dispensational eschatology relies on a literal , historical, grammatical understanding of SCripture and we take every word at its normal face value unless the text and context compel us other wise. The golden rule of Scripture has always been: "If the plain sense of Scripture makes perfect sense, seek no other sense."

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rwb said:

Why don't you tell me what time period you believe Rev 14:13 applies to. Because as I've shown that I believe the chapter is reference to the whole New Covenant Gospel Age. And the beast is synonymous with destruction. The beast, which is the power and spirit of Satan has been around since the beginning of human history.

Revelation 13:4 (KJV) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Here is a depiction of the beast, but likened to the serpent in the garden. There has been enmity between the seed of the serpent (Satan), likened to the devil, dragon, beast, and serpent, all equate to the seed of Satan, and the seed of Christ from the fall.

Ge 3:14 ¶ And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

So if you are under the assumption that the mark of the beast is not yet come, then please tell me what period of time you believe this chapter of Revelation relates to.

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shilohsfoal said:

First we must understand the beast did not exist when John wrote revelation. It had existed beforehand but did not exist at that moment in time. John wrote that it would exist once more.

Revelation 17:8 NIV: The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.


Now if you understand what the beast is you would exactly how long before it reappeared. Those who's names are not written in the lambs book of life do not realize what it is when it reappears.

With that said and watching the beasts everymove we can see that the mark of the beast will be implemented in the next couple of years.
About the same time Trump gives Israel a host or soon after.

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rwb said:

The beast, having the same power and authority of Satan has always been around. He goes by a variety of names, as I have shown you. Would you agree that one who is a child of Satan already has his mark upon them?

John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

1 John 3:8 (KJV) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

What is the mark that was placed on Cain when he was driven from the garden after killing his brother Abel? Was God providentially preserving Cain's life for the purpose of reproduction? Is the mark a sign showing he belonged to the seed of evil? Is this the same mark that would be upon all Satan's seed?

Genesis 4:15 (KJV) And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

1 John 3:12 (KJV) Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Genesis 1:25 (KJV) And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 3:1 (KJV) Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The mark of the beast, i.e. the seed of the serpent/devil/Satan/beast, shows ownership, and has been upon his seed from the beginning of creation.

You can't see this because you are consumed with physical fulfillment, a physical mark, and waiting for him (A man?) to make an appearance on this earth? So you are in the dark and don't realize the mark is not physical, and the beast is fallen man working in the power of Satan.

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rwb said:

The beast, having the same power and authority of Satan has always been around. He goes by a variety of names, as I have shown you. Would you agree that one who is a child of Satan already has his mark upon them?

John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

1 John 3:8 (KJV) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

What is the mark that was placed on Cain when he was driven from the garden after killing his brother Abel? Was God providentially preserving Cain's life for the purpose of reproduction? Is the mark a sign showing he belonged to the seed of evil? Is this the same mark that would be upon all Satan's seed?

Genesis 4:15 (KJV) And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

1 John 3:12 (KJV) Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Genesis 1:25 (KJV) And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 3:1 (KJV) Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The mark of the beast, i.e. the seed of the serpent/devil/Satan/beast, shows ownership, and has been upon his seed from the beginning of creation.

You can't see this because you are consumed with physical fulfillment, a physical mark, and waiting for him (A man?) to make an appearance on this earth? So you are in the dark and don't realize the mark is not physical, and the beast is fallen man working in the power of Satan.

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rwb said:

The beast, having the same power and authority of Satan has always been around. He goes by a variety of names, as I have shown you. Would you agree that one who is a child of Satan already has his mark upon them?

John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

1 John 3:8 (KJV) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

What is the mark that was placed on Cain when he was driven from the garden after killing his brother Abel? Was God providentially preserving Cain's life for the purpose of reproduction? Is the mark a sign showing he belonged to the seed of evil? Is this the same mark that would be upon all Satan's seed?

Genesis 4:15 (KJV) And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

1 John 3:12 (KJV) Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Genesis 1:25 (KJV) And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 3:1 (KJV) Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The mark of the beast, i.e. the seed of the serpent/devil/Satan/beast, shows ownership, and has been upon his seed from the beginning of creation.

You can't see this because you are consumed with physical fulfillment, a physical mark, and waiting for him (A man?) to make an appearance on this earth? So you are in the dark and don't realize the mark is not physical, and the beast is fallen man working in the power of Satan.

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rwb said:

So if you are under the assumption that the mark of the beast is not yet come, then please tell me what period of time you believe this chapter of Revelation relates to.

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