How easy is the KJV to understand?

Radagast · Jun 25, 2020

There have been a few discussions as to whether the KJV is truly "in English" or if it is in "another language." So I thought it was time for a quiz.

The poll combines one grammar question and 3 questions about word meanings, so you should tick 4 boxes. Answers are in the spoiler box.

1. God created Eve for Adam (most got this wrong).

In the phrase "help meet for him," help = helper is a noun, and meet = suitable is an adjective. Adjectives on their own always go before the noun, so we must write "meet help" = "suitable helper," not "help meet" = "helper suitable":

God created Eve for Adam as a meet help.

2. The "quick and the dead" (everybody got this right).

The "quick and the dead" are the "alive and the dead."

3. In Romans 1:13, "let hitherto" (half got this wrong).

The word "let" used to mean "prevented," and has totally changed its meaning. The old meaning survives in the phrase "without let or hindrance" on passports (US passports use modern English instead):

In Romans 1:13, "let hitherto" means "prevented hitherto."

4. In 1 Corinthians 10:25, a shambles is a slaughterhouse (it later became a metaphor for extreme messiness). Half got this wrong:

In 1 Corinthians 10:25, only meat is sold in a shambles.

Overall, that's about 50% wrong: KJV English is more difficult than KJV advocates make out. Indeed, even defenders of the KJV admit that you often need the same tools that you would need for a foreign language.

-57 · Jun 25, 2020

Radagast said:
There have been a few discussions as to whether the KJV is truly "in English" or if it is in "another language." So I thought it was time for a quiz.

I guess it made sense in 1611.

Dansiph · Jun 25, 2020

Radagast said:
There have been a few discussions as to whether the KJV is truly "in English" or if it is in "another language." So I thought it was time for a quiz.

I didn't really understand the poll itself. I have voted though. I am probably not going to discuss the KJV with anyone who views it negatively anymore on this website. No point. If on the other hand people like the KJV and want to positively discuss it I will discuss it.

At the end of the day it seems a lot of people dislike people defending the KJV but are happy for people to attack and bash it. Something not quite right there. I also don't think cherry picking difficult verses really means much.

Radagast · Jun 25, 2020

Aspzan said:
I didn't really understand the poll itself.

The poll combines one grammar question and 3 questions about word meanings.

Thanks for voting.

I no longer use the KJV, but I retain a fondness for it.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 25, 2020

@Radagast

You can simply take notes on the KJV and look up words in the dictionary. But to say that it is another language is silly. If you can read most of the words and understand it, then it is not another language. It's still English. Yes, it is an archaic form of English, but not all of it is unreadable and thus it is not another language. Certain words simply need to be looked up in older dictionaries or sometimes in the Strong's Concordance. That's it. There's no problem. If you have a poor memory (like myself), you can simply take notes on the words that you don't understand.

To abandon the KJV is bad from my perspective because I believe it to be the very words of God and Modern Translations push all kinds of bad stuff in them like the removal of important doctrines, commands, making Jesus appear to sin, placing the devil's name in them where it does not belong, etc.; But I believe this is a spiritual issue and people see what they want to see.

I will also not endlessly debate this issue.
The poll is also not applicable because 1600's English is not another language. If you can read from it, and understand most of it, it is not another language. It is silly to suggest otherwise. Your not understanding certain words that appear SOMETIMES does not mean it is another language. You can look them up and see how those words tie in with our Modern English sometimes.

Radagast · Jun 25, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Certain words simply need to be looked up in older dictionaries or sometimes in the Strong's Concordance.

The tricky words are the ones that seem familiar, of course.

Bible Highlighter said:
I believe it to be the very words of God

I would say that the Hebrew and Greek are the very words of God, myself.

But this thread is not about the accuracy of the KJV as a translation, it's only about the readability. Hopefully most of us can agree on the latter.

I hope you voted.

chevyontheriver · Jun 25, 2020

Radagast said:
There have been a few discussions as to whether the KJV is truly "in English" or if it is in "another language." So I thought it was time for a quiz.

The poll combines one grammar question and 3 questions about word meanings, so you should tick 4 boxes.

Unless you have a degree in Elizabethan English, it's a different language. Not quite as far removed as Chaucer and Beowolf, but farther removed than Shakespeare. How can so many people pretend to understand it?

I get the desire not to be influenced by 'Modernist' revisions. But even the KJV has it's influences that are less than ideal.

Radagast · Jun 25, 2020

chevyontheriver said:
Unless you have a degree in Elizabethan English, it's a different language.

Well, within the limits of CF's poll tool, that's what I'm trying to get a handle on.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 25, 2020

Radagast said:
The tricky words are the ones that seem familiar, of course.

2 Timothy 2:15 says study to shew yourself approved unto God.
This command is removed in Modern Translations. I will admit, the KJV does have some difficult words. In my recent study, one of the words I have come to know better is “lest.” The definition changes based on the context. I have found that it can mean “to the avoid the risk of” or it can mean: “otherwise,” etc.; I used to think this word meant “unless," but this is not the case. “Lest” and “unless” are similar but they are not exactly the same thing.

I would say that the Hebrew and Greek are the very words of God, myself.

I believe that, too.
But if God's Word has not been preserved in our world language today, then His Word has not been preserved. Nobody truly can know the original languages with 100% certainty. A person has to grow up in that culture to truly know them. These cultures are long gone and dead.

I don't believe God is the God of the dead, but of the living.
If His words only existed in dead languages only, this means that God is not able to speak in our living culture today with a language that we are little more familiar with or able to understand (by doing simple English word studies).

You said:
But this thread is not about the accuracy of the KJV as a translation, it's only about the readability.

In all honesty, the Old Testament can be very difficult to read at times. The gospels and the books of Paul are pretty easy for the most part. Acts is kind of difficult at times. But this is why God wants us to study to (shew) show ourselves approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15). Lately, I have been looking up words in the KJV, and taking notes, and it has been very fruitful for me. I appreciate it more than just reading a watered down Modern Translation that butchers the beloved truth that I hold so dear. Sure, a Modern Translation reads more easily, but there are so many changes for the worse within them, and not they are not for the better.

There is a saying. Nothing good in life comes easy.

chevyontheriver · Jun 25, 2020

Radagast said:
Well, within the limits of CF's poll tool, that's what I'm trying to get a handle on.

As far as your poll goes, I'm pretty clueless. I could guess, but it would be almost a 50:50 thing.

Tom 1 · Jun 25, 2020

Radagast said:
There have been a few discussions as to whether the KJV is truly "in English" or if it is in "another language." So I thought it was time for a quiz.

The poll combines one grammar question and 3 questions about word meanings, so you should tick 4 boxes.

I don't think it qualifies as another language, although it slows down reading a bit. Some great turns of phrase in there, many lifted from Tyndale's translation. If you haven't read it, Melvin Braggs books on the impact of the KJV on modern English is an eye-opening read.

fwGod · Jun 25, 2020

The word "shambles" in 1 Cor.10:25 presents a puzzlement to me, it takes a modern version to clarify the meaning.

Radagast · Jun 25, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
In my recent study, one of the words I have come to know better is “lest.”

I did not use that one for the poll in part because "lest" is commonly used in Australia, in the phrase "lest we forget."

1280px-Lest_we_Forget_Statue_Canberra_War_Memorial_%2837852781655%29.jpg

The rest of what you said I will not respond to here.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 25, 2020

@Radagast

There is the Defined King James Bible available to purchase.

It puts a number next to the more difficult words and defines it at the bottom of the page.

Click on image to zoom in:

Click on image to zoom in:

It is super expensive to buy on Amazon.

But it can be bought for a more reasonable price at other Christian websites.

Bible Truth Publishers has them for a somewhat decent price:

Leather Burgundy Thumb Indexed (Large Print) (12 point font):
Defined King James Large Print Text Bible: BFT LBURX, KJV (#40302) - BTP

Black Leather (No Thumb Index) (Large Print) (12 point font):
Defined King James Large Print Text Bible: BFT L3000 B BK, KJV (#8844) - BTP

If you want a cheap leatherflex version:
(Note: This cover is kind of cheap, and it can tear):
Anyways, I picked one of these cheap Leatherflex versions at Fundamental Baptist Books here for 20 bucks:
Fundamental Baptist Books

While there appears to be other cheaper leather versions of the Defined KJB at this website, I ended up talking with them on the phone and found out that they are on backorder until the new year. “Bible Truth Publishers“ should have them (i.e. the first links within this post).

Radagast · Jun 25, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
There is the Defined King James Bible available to purchase.

That's more or less exactly what I do with Greek.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 25, 2020

Radagast said:
I did not use that one for the poll in part because "lest" is commonly used in Australia, in the phrase "lest we forget."

The rest of what you said I will not respond to here.

So your average Australian is aware that the word “lest” means “otherwise”, or to “so as to avoid the risk of” or “for fear that”, etc.?

Radagast · Jun 25, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
So your average Australian is aware that the word “lest” means “otherwise”, or to “so as to avoid the risk of” or “for fear that”, etc.?

On the tombs and memorials, it means "so as to avoid the risk of." I think most Australians would know that; we make a big thing of it on 25 April every year.

On the other hand, our national anthem says "girt by sea," and nobody knows what that means.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 25, 2020

Radagast said:
That's more or less exactly what I do with Greek.

Well, while the Defined KJB does define some words on rare occasion with the Greek, but it mostly just defines them from older dictionaries. I know, I confirmed many of their definitions already. In my view, the Strong's Concordance is not always giving you the correct meaning and it is influencing with a religious bias sometimes. While there definitions are many times true, they are not always true. Hence, why Modern Translation Bibles are a watered down version of the Word of God (pushing a person to trust in the Strong's Concordance as if it was a Bible). Looking to the original languages means you are placing your faith in James Strong and his buddies in their interpretation. The Strong's Concordance is not inspired by God. English dictionaries have less chance of being biased because they are not exclusive to understanding the English language for the Bible alone.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 25, 2020

Radagast said:
On the tombs and memorials, it means "so as to avoid the risk of." I think most Australians would know that; we make a big thing of it on 25 April every year.

On the other hand, our national anthem says "girt by sea," and nobody knows what that means.

Try asking a few Australians at work and or on the street, and see what they say. Ask them if they can define the word “lest.”

Radagast · Jun 25, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Looking to the original languages means you are placing your faith in James Strong and his buddies in their interpretation.

Well, no.

But that's off topic for this thread.

How easy is the KJV to understand?

In correct KJV English...

God created Eve for Adam as a help meet.

God created Eve for Adam as a meet help.

The "quick and the dead" are the "speedy and the dead."

The "quick and the dead" are the "alive and the dead."

The "quick and the dead" are the "intelligent and the dead."

In Romans 1:13, "let hitherto" means "prevented hitherto."

In Romans 1:13, "let hitherto" means "forbidden hitherto."

In Romans 1:13, "let hitherto" means "allowed hitherto."

In 1 Corinthians 10:25, all kinds of food are sold in a shambles.

In 1 Corinthians 10:25, only meat is sold in a shambles.

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