There's No Evidence That Protests Have Caused a Coronavirus Surge

FireDragon76 said:

Many states do not in fact have such laws, and in the end such laws will be reviewed by courts for their constitutionality. They won't stand, long term. To treat an embryo or fetus as a legal person would result in absurdity.

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Which states do not have that law? Evidence? a person is a person regardless of age and now you have states who want to kill the child after it has been delivered, why stop there why not kill a child at any age if it limits your personal freedoms in any way?

disciple Clint said:

Which states do not have that law? Evidence? a person is a person regardless of age and now you have states who want to kill the child after it has been delivered, why stop there why not kill a child at any age if it limits your personal freedoms in any way?

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Perhaps this sort of discussion would be best in another thread?

I don't see the reason that every discussion has to come down invariably to the politics of abortion or gay rights. That's trying to change the subject of the conversation for the purposes of luring me into seeing the world through your religious ideology. I won't bite.

FireDragon76 said:

Perhaps this sort of discussion would be best in another thread?

I don't see the reason that every discussion has to come down invariably to the politics of abortion or gay rights. That's trying to change the subject of the conversation for the purposes of luring me into seeing the world through your religious ideology. I won't bite.

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I agree that this should be moved to another location, I simply commented on a discussion that you were involved in and I did not check the title of the thread. I am fairly certain that you want to avoid the questions I asked anyway.

RestoreTheJoy said:

Well, since you used the incorrect term "anti-choice", your pro-death (equivalent term) rhetoric must be kept out of this discussion as well, particularly since you are wrong. A fetus is indeed a person under criminal laws in nearly all states(with abortion exception).

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Most abortions affect embryos, not fetuses.

So the state of the law is that Mom can kill a baby/fetus with impunity via abortion

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The point of the abortion is to remove something that attached itself to the woman without her approval. The death of the unborn (whether it is a person or not) is incidental. Her right to bodily autonomy outweighs all other concerns.

SummerMadness said:

There's No Evidence That Protests Have Caused a Coronavirus Surge

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Which rather proves that the government shutdowns were unwarranted, ineffective, and ulteriorly motivated.

98cwitr said:

Which rather proves that the government shutdowns were unwarranted, ineffective, and ulteriorly motivated.

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No it doesn't; especially given the context of the original shutdowns.

98cwitr said:

Which rather proves that the government shutdowns were unwarranted, ineffective, and ulteriorly motivated.

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Not necessarily.
within the last week:

Exhibit A
"Pastor Joshua Manning is waiting for test results, but he can tell by the persistent fever and body aches that he probably has the coronavirus. His wife and three kids have symptoms, too, and so many members of his Community Baptist Church in tiny Noel, Missouri, are infected that he’s closing the building until things improve..
..At the start of June, McDonald County in the far southwestern corner of Missouri had fewer than two dozen confirmed cases of COVID-19, the illness caused by the coronavirus. As of Tuesday, 498 cases have been confirmed..

Exhibit B
"State health authorities said this week that more than 230 cases were tied to an outbreak at the Lighthouse Pentecostal Church in Union County, which held services in defiance of Oregon's stay-at-home order.."

NxNW said:

Most abortions affect embryos, not fetuses.

The point of the abortion is to remove something that attached itself to the woman without her approval. The death of the unborn (whether it is a person or not) is incidental. Her right to bodily autonomy outweighs all other concerns.

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The death of the unborn is the point, illustrating the hypocrisy. The baby is only there in the first place because when a woman has sex, the reasonably foreseeable consequence is pregnancy (**unless woman was raped, maybe 1% of cases). Unless she is incompetent (hence, again, rape), consent is integral to the sex.

None of this addresses the illogical situation that a baby in utero IS a baby for purposes OTHER than abortion like torts and crimes, but is suddenly not a baby if mom wants to abort it. That's insanity. It either is or is not a baby.

FireDragon76 said:

That's blatantly misleading. Just because someone can claim a tort against someone else, doesn't follow that personhood is involved. Destruction of property, after all, is something that someone can be sued in court for.

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Are you attempting to equate a baby in utero with property? That would be wrong too, because the cause would be either Wrongful death (in a civil trial) or murder or manslaughter in a criminal trial, all cases requiring the involvement of a person, not property.

RestoreTheJoy said:

It either is or is not a baby.

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Depends on how you define “baby”, now doesn’t it? Personally, I don’t know anyone that uses the word baby to describe what’s in a uterus. When my then wife was pregnant, she would say “we’re going to have a baby”, not “we have a baby, it’s just not out yet”.

But ultimately, terminology doesn’t matter. The only thing that matters is whether or not what’s in a uterus deserves protections from removal.

Like I touched on in the other thread...when it comes to the virus spread, "mandated social distancing" and "keeping certain kinds of businesses shut down" are just two small pieces of a puzzle that has a lot of pieces.

Obviously it gets polarized in a way where "Republican governors want to re-open restaurants, therefore dining is restaurants is bad" and "Democrats want to support anti-police protests, therefore protesting is bad"

In reality, there are dozens of factors that can contribute whether or not rates increase as a result of certain type close contact. But when you compile all of those factors, you don't end up with any aggregates that fit neatly into either of the two political boxes, so nobody wants to talk about them.

How do you explain the big recent rise in corona cases? https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-...ghest-levels-since-april-20200625-p555wm.html

I all for the movement, but I never really supported the mass gathering of people in the middle of a major virus outbreak. There are better ways to have one voices heard instead of mass gatherings in the streets.

Pope66 said:

How do you explain the big recent rise in corona cases?

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They had been rising quickly before any of the protests took place and are linked with various states "opening up" too soon. Philadelphia, for example, is not, to my knowledge, seeing an increase in cases despite large protests 2 weeks ago. My wife works for a big hospital in PA and they haven't seen increases in the number of covid cases on their daily census - it's been slowly declining for over a month. Pennsylvania itself was pretty quick to lock things down and has been on the careful end of opening things back up and still has various mask requirements even in regions that are in the "green" phase. States such as FL... not so much.

How Covid was dealt with varies drastically state to state. Some states, particularly those in the northeast had a more dramatic reaction, while others barely did anything. The latter are where cases are going up quickly.

RestoreTheJoy said:

The death of the unborn is the point, illustrating the hypocrisy.

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No, the end of the pregnancy is the point.

The baby is only there in the first place because when a woman has sex

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Except it's not a baby.

the reasonably foreseeable consequence is pregnancy (**unless woman was raped, maybe 1% of cases). Unless she is incompetent (hence, again, rape), consent is integral to the sex

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Consenting to sex is not consenting to become pregnant.

None of this addresses the illogical situation that a baby in utero IS a baby for purposes OTHER than abortion like torts and crimes, but is suddenly not a baby if mom wants to abort it. That's insanity. It either is or is not a baby.

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Can you give me an example of an unborn 'baby' being charged with a tort or other crime? Or being counted as a dependent for tax purposes or in a census or being charged admission?

Aussie Pete said:

Not to mention the infants that have been aborted in the same period of time.

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...thread derail.[/QUOTE]

FireDragon76 said:

It's probably not as risky as some people assume, but I find it ironic that so many people are out protesting a handful of police killings, when the Coronavirus has killed far more innocent black people in the past few months than police have in over a decade.

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you do realize many of the things they are protesting agaisnt are the reasons for that?

Inequality
unequal treatment been some studies showing that a black person is less likly to be tested or treated for covid19 vs a white person
wealth inequality which is a big deciding factor in being effected by covid19.

trunks2k said:

They had been rising quickly before any of the protests took place and are linked with various states "opening up" too soon. Philadelphia, for example, is not, to my knowledge, seeing an increase in cases despite large protests 2 weeks ago. My wife works for a big hospital in PA and they haven't seen increases in the number of covid cases on their daily census - it's been slowly declining for over a month. Pennsylvania itself was pretty quick to lock things down and has been on the careful end of opening things back up and still has various mask requirements even in regions that are in the "green" phase. States such as FL... not so much.

How Covid was dealt with varies drastically state to state. Some states, particularly those in the northeast had a more dramatic reaction, while others barely did anything. The latter are where cases are going up quickly.

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...I'd be willing to buy that if there were any sort of uniformity in terms of "states opening up sooner vs staying locked down" with regards to outcomes.

It's easy to cherry pick an example of a state governor one doesn't like that's having an issue with it, and using that to form a narrative.

The reality is, you can find just about any combination you're looking for...

California and NY are both strict: NY is greatly improving, Cali is getting way worse
Ohio, Florida, Colorado, and Texas were all on the more lax side: Ohio and Colorado are doing okay...Texas and Florida, not so much.

If it were as simple as "reopening = disaster" "locking down = stability", then NY & Cali should be having similar outcomes, and Ohio and Colorado should be having the same issues as Texas and Florida.

For the record, I don't think it's a coincidence that Colorado's governor being a democrat and Ohio's Mike DeWine a "blue-friendly" republican were the reason why a lot of the left leaning media didn't attack them for re-opening the same way they did Kemp, Abbott, DeSantis. (even though the strategies were all nearly identical with the exception of maybe 7 days difference in the phased re-opening initiation)


Obviously re-opening and increasing testing rates are going to lead to increases, that's a given.

However (and I elaborated on this in a previous post), there other factors that I feel are larger contributors with regards to reasons why some states are doing okay and others are having serious issues.

trunks2k said:

They had been rising quickly before any of the protests took place and are linked with various states "opening up" too soon. Philadelphia, for example, is not, to my knowledge, seeing an increase in cases despite large protests 2 weeks ago. My wife works for a big hospital in PA and they haven't seen increases in the number of covid cases on their daily census - it's been slowly declining for over a month. Pennsylvania itself was pretty quick to lock things down and has been on the careful end of opening things back up and still has various mask requirements even in regions that are in the "green" phase. States such as FL... not so much.

How Covid was dealt with varies drastically state to state. Some states, particularly those in the northeast had a more dramatic reaction, while others barely did anything. The latter are where cases are going up quickly.

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Well wait and see and time will tell. There are people who would see that if it is OK for thousands of people to congregate and huddle together with the BLM protest, surely it would be OK for 10 and my family',"

Just to put my previous post in a little more perspective...



This is for my state of Ohio...

They're reporting the increased numbers in terms of net positive test results...however, the rate itself is pretty static.

It stands to reason that if you're doing more testing, you'll get more positives...for my state, the positive test result stat has been < 10% for quite some time, regardless of if it's a day where they do 6,000 tests, or 15,000 tests.

Obviously with a major health issue like this, it'd be unethical to say "as a control, we're going to going to do 6,000 tests per day for the next 30 days"...for this, you need to do the test when it's needed. But controlling for testing volume would be the only true way to know what direction you're moving in.

Not only does the increased testing lead to an increased net number, it also leads to asymptomatic folks, or people who have very mild symptoms stopping by one of these "pop up testing" locations to get a test "just out of curiosity" when they wouldn't have done so otherwise.

Not saying that's a bad thing, but it will increase the numbers and could paint a dire picture of "things are getting worse" when they may not actually be the case.

Aussie Pete said:

Not to mention the infants that have been aborted in the same period of time.

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You can't abort an infant it's physically and logically impossible.