Ammillennial Return of Christ: by Dr. Sam Storms

TribulationSigns · Jun 24, 2020

DavidPT said:
While it's on my mind, since Amils insist this occurs before the 2nd coming rather than after.

Correct. Actually, it is the battle of Armaggeddon, aka Gog and Magog, right at the very end right before the Second Coming.

can any Amil point out the beast and false prophet in this segment of text? They would have to be in here somewhere if this is meaning before the 2nd coming.

The only theological scholars that I listen to are those who bear testimony to what the word of God actually says, not those speculating about the middle east, Holy Temples, the common market, Russian tanks, Iraq, the holy land, one-world governments, unity of the world coming against Israel with bombs and guns. I'm not interested in fables, dreams, visions, the ramblings of TV Evangelicals, or wild political or science speculations. It is "they" who are making things up, not I.

Revelation 16:12-16 KJV
[12] And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
[13] And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
[14] For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
[15] Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
[16] And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Satan is NOT loosed to gather his army against the nation Israel as some believe. Rather he is gathering them together to fight against "God's People," who are the Saints of the congregation, the beloved city. He is at enmity with the church and his mission is to bring abominations into it that it might become desolate as Christ has warned in Matthew 24. Much like what Christ said he did with regards to the Old Testament church represented by physical Jerusalem prior to the cross.

Luke 13:34-35 KJV
[34] O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
[35] Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

And true to His Word, the Old Testament congregation of Israel was left desolate in Christ's victory over Satan. Should we think the New Testament church is any better to escape God's judgment for their unfaithfulness and for killing His Two Witnesses and stone those that are sent as His Messengers? I think not.

In verse 8 satan is deceiving all of those. As to the beast and fp, no one is deceiving them, but that they are the ones deceiving others, or at least the false prophet is.

I can see why you are bit confused. You are referring to Revelation 16 where the unfaithful church is being ruled over by the Spirit from the mouth of the false prophet. We were talking about Revelation chapter 18 where the Lord calls the Kings of the earth out of the church. As I've said before, the Kings of the earth represent all the people of the church, both faithful elect and unfaithful (depending on the context). This can be easily proven. e.g.:

Exhibit A:
Revelation 16:14

"For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

Revelation 19:19

"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."

Exhibit B:
Revelation 1:5

"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,"

Revelation 21:24

"And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it."

Clearly, the kings of the earth are either saved kings or unsaved kings, depending upon the chapter and context. Remember God has made us Kings and Priests in His Kingdom. And the unsaved professed Christian, being corporately to the Church are called kings because they are all those outwardly "professing" to reign with Christ. But all are not truly saved. Just as a church is full of professing Christians, but few are true Christians. "Many are called, few are chosen." The kings of Revelation chapter 16 are those who were deceived by Satan, beast and false prophet. And the 3 unclean spirits (the number 3 symbolizes God's purpose and will) from the mouths of the false prophets illustrate that God has allowed them to deceive unsaved people of the congregation to fulfill His Word. For example:

Revelation 17:17-18

"For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

The church is New Testament congregation, representing God's Kingdon on Earth and is His Holy City and the beloved city, who reigns over the kings--as representative of Christ, King of kings.

sovereigngrace · Jun 24, 2020

TribulationSigns said:
I do not buy it. I am sure that you have checked with many outside links before, engage or not.

You can't call it a theory without actually read the whole study first. Tony Warren is a well known amillennialist who has provided all Scripture concerning Satan. Go check it out.

First, you need to know what the archangel means. It taken from two Greek words, [archo], meaning the first, and by extension top, chief or head -- and [aggelos] meaning messenger, the one who brings tidings or news. So archangel simply means "highest or greatest "messenger."

Then you need to find what Michael meant in Scripture which I show that it means "He who is assuredly God." Christ is indeed the chief or head messenger of God who is the protector of His congregation, Israel.

Go read the study, trust me, its good one.

Yes, it simply means that Satan is the chief messenger of the people he rules over. He is their spiritual father and father of lies. It is his word is that deceives many, so his messengers (ie. scribes, Pharisees, and professed Christians are his messengers that speaks Satan's word, ie. false doctrines.

Take, Revelation 12:17 for example, Satan struck down a third of the stars of heaven. Remember stars = human messengers of the cooperation (kingdom of heaven). Not feathered created beings. He has deceived symbolically third of the messengers of the congregation. ie. The Scribes, Pharisees, and the unsaved people of Israel at the time of the Cross.

I respect Tony Warren, but he is wrong on this matter. I prefer the leading of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is NOT Michael, and I am not about to change. I studied this a long time ago and am happy with what God showed me.

TribulationSigns · Jun 24, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
I respect Tony Warren, but he is wrong on this matter. I prefer the leading of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is NOT Michael, and I am not about to change. I studied this a long time ago and am happy with what God showed me.

Well, I can say the same that I am led by the Holy Spirit to tell you that Jesus is indeed Christ by provided some Scripture plus a link to a full study by Tony Warren. But here, you have not yet offered a single verse to support your belief that Michael is "not" Christ Himself. Even the Scribes and Pharisees of old are happy with what they thought God has shown them!

Another example for Hebrews 1:13

"But to which of the messengers said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?"

The answer is none, since none were the Chief Messenger except Michael, the Messenger of the Covenant who stood up for the people, who fought with the Dragon and His army (Revelation 12) and who gave His army of messengers, His people, the victory over Him by His shed blood. Only Christ does that, not your feathered angel. You see it is we (God's Children) who are soldiers in the army of the Lord, and our weapons and shields are spiritual, not carnal. We are all more than conquerors in Christ Jesus. Here is the Scripture:

Revelation 12:7-11

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Angels fighting in literal heaven?! Perish the thought! They are not getting the physical victory by Christ's death, the messengers of the Kingdom are getting the Spiritual victory by Christ's shed blood. The Satan and His children accused Christ (John 8:6) and argued about the body of Moses with Him, and with this victory, the accuser of them is cast down. In other words, this warfare (whatever you might think it is), was won by Christ going to the cross. It's not a literal battle of literal angels in a literal heaven, God forbid, as some suppose but is the stuff of bad movies, Televangelist, and sloppy exegesis.

sovereigngrace · Jun 24, 2020

TribulationSigns said:
Well, I can say the same that I am led by the Holy Spirit to tell you that Jesus is indeed Christ by provided some Scripture plus a link to a full study by Tony Warren. But here, you have not yet offered a single verse to support your belief that Michael is "not" Christ Himself. Even the Scribes and Pharisees of old are happy with what they thought God has shown them!

Another example for Hebrews 1:13

"But to which of the messengers said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?"

The answer is none, since none were the Chief Messenger except Michael, the Messenger of the Covenant who stood up for the people, who fought with the Dragon and His army (Revelation 12) and who gave His army of messengers, His people, the victory over Him by His shed blood. Only Christ does that, not your feathered angel. You see it is we (God's Children) who are soldiers in the army of the Lord, and our weapons and shields are spiritual, not carnal. We are all more than conquerors in Christ Jesus. Here is the Scripture:

Revelation 12:7-11

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Angels fighting in literal heaven?! Perish the thought! They are not getting the physical victory by Christ's death, the messengers of the Kingdom are getting the Spiritual victory by Christ's shed blood. The Satan and His children accused Christ (John 8:6) and argued about the body of Moses with Him, and with this victory, the accuser of them is cast down. In other words, this warfare (whatever you might think it is), was won by Christ going to the cross. It's not a literal battle of literal angels in a literal heaven, God forbid, as some suppose but is the stuff of bad movies, Televangelist, and sloppy exegesis.

I am not interested in the link, the subject or derailing this thread. Rev 12 does not prove your contention.

TribulationSigns · Jun 24, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
I am not interested in the link, the subject or derailing this thread. Rev 12 does not prove your contention.

Well, you have not refuted my position yet, especially without a single shred of Scripture whatsoever. You were the one who said you do not agree, refused to get in the debate, and denied the Scripture presented.

Sorry, your claim about Michael does not have a leg to stand on based on your personal opinion without Scripture support whatsoever, as far as I am concerned.

Besides, have you done your homework on the Hebrew meaning for the name, Michael? What does this name, as a chief messenger, mean to you, me, and His congregation Israel? Let hear this out from you.

5thKingdom · Jun 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Bro, I am Amil. I believe the binding is spiritual and relates to the here-and-now. Please read my posts before refuting something I don't believe.

I have bee Amil for almost 50 years... you embarrass yourself
when you automatically assume what is not even close to true.
I NEVER disputed the Amil position - by you or anyone else.

/

5thKingdom · Jun 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Where does Scripture ever locate humans in the abyss? Never. It is either Hades now or the Lake of Fire in the future. The elect angel is given authority over the pit. But the pit possesses inhabitants (demons) over which there is a king (Satan).

When did I ever say humans are in the Pit?
You who likes to talk about reading what was said,
only embarrass yourself when you do what you accuse of others.

Secondly... pay attention now"
The "Locusts" do NOT come OUT of the Pit.
The Pit is the cage of Satan and his demons.
Read what Scripture says (not what you Want IT to say)

Rev 9:2
And he opened the bottomless pit;
and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke
of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened
by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Rev 9:3
And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth:
and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth
have power.

First point: The smoke and darkness of Rev 9 is the SAME
darkness of the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24 and others.

Second point: The "Locusts" DO NOT come out of the Pit.
They come out of the SMOKE (or darkness) which is the
deception of Satan and his demons.

So I corrected your error (again)... you are welcome.

It would be wise for you to stop pretending you are the
most knowledgeable person around. I also have been a
preacher for about 50 years. Moreover, I was one of the
"ten virgins" of Matthew 25:1-13 and have been preaching
the Biblical mysteries of Daniel [Dan 12:4 and Dan 12:8-12]
AND the fulfillment of Great Tribulation prophecies which
Jesus PROMISED the Last Saints "shall see" [Mat 24:15,33]
And I have been preaching these mysteries during the
"Season and Time" (do you even know when that is?)
for about 13 years.

/

5thKingdom · Jun 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
The angel carries the key (authority). Since the earthly life, death and resurrection Satan has lost his spiritual authority, Christ and the kingdom of God hold that over him now. Satan has no right to that key.

I am amazed at what you wrote.
Here is what I posted... this is what you were responding to.
It seems you just like to hear yourself talk because you only
confirmed what I had already CORRECTED you on.

From my original post:

Secondly, the "angel of the Bottomless Pit" is Satan
(Apollyon) since it is Satan which is "bound" in the Pit
(at the Cross)

Once again... the Bottomless Pit is NOT a "kingdom"
nor is it a geographic area under Antarctica... instead,

The Pit is a CONDITION to not have AUTHORITY
during the Great Commission of the Church Age
(again showing Satan was BOUND at the Cross)

Mat 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in
the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

/

sovereigngrace · Jun 25, 2020

5thKingdom said:
When did I ever say humans are in the Pit?
You who likes to talk about reading what was said,
only embarrass yourself when you do what you accuse of others.

Secondly... pay attention now"
The "Locusts" do NOT come OUT of the Pit.
The Pit is the cage of Satan and his demons.
Read what Scripture says (not what you Want IT to say)

Rev 9:2
And he opened the bottomless pit;
and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke
of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened
by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Rev 9:3
And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth:
and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth
have power.

First point: The smoke and darkness of Rev 9 is the SAME
darkness of the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24 and others.

Second point: The "Locusts" DO NOT come out of the Pit.
They come out of the SMOKE (or darkness) which is the
deception of Satan and his demons.

So I corrected your error (again)... you are welcome.

It would be wise for you to stop pretending you are the
most knowledgeable person around. I also have been a
preacher for about 50 years. Moreover, I was one of the
"ten virgins" of Matthew 25:1-13 and have been preaching
the Biblical mysteries of Daniel [Dan 12:4 and Dan 12:8-12]
AND the fulfillment of Great Tribulation prophecies which
Jesus PROMISED the Last Saints "shall see" [Mat 24:15,33]
And I have been preaching these mysteries during the
"Season and Time" (do you even know when that is?)
for about 13 years.

/

You previously stated:

Rev 9:10-11
And they [the Locusts] had tails like unto scorpions,
[representing false prophets] and there were stings in
their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
And they [the Locusts] had a king over them, which is
the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the
Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue
hath his name Apollyon.

Also, you need to understand when the great tribulation is before lecturing others.

Please compare:

In His discourse in Matthew 23:37-24:2 the Lord warns, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord (the second coming). Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The religious Jews of Jerusalem were about to witness the destruction of their temple. Moreover, that ruination would remain in place from its demolition right up until the second coming of the Lord. The desolation of the temple significantly occurred on the wing of 40 years of idolatrous temple sacrifices (exactly a generation)? The statement “there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” was plainly referring to, and correlating with, the warning He had just made to the religious Jews about the impending destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. It was also a direct reference to Daniel 9.

Matthew 24:1-2 records, “And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Christ was specifically speaking here of “the buildings of the temple” not the city. You cannot anywhere find that Israel is described as this. This is literal precise detail!

Mark 13:1-2 records, “And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here. And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

In this parallel account, Mark corroborates the thought of Matthew.

Luke 21:5-6 records, “And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The disciples then asked two questions in Matthew 24 in response to our Lord’s words.

Matthew 24:3 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

Mark 13:4 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled (finished or ended)?”

Luke 21:7 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?”

Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming.
In His response to the first question in Matthew 24:15-22, He spoke of the end of the 40 year probationary period (AD 70), saying, “When ye (the disciples) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

Mark 13:14-20 says, “when ye (the disciples) shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.”

This can only refer to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem that destroyed the existing socio-political/cultural/religious system of Judaism, which was an offence to God. This people were decimated. Their religious system was effectively brought to nought. Nothing before AD 70, or after it, could compare in regard to the extent of its demise. Luke 21:20-24 reinforces that we are looking at AD 70.

Luke’s parallel passage, in Luke 21:20-24, records, “when ye (the disciples) shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

5thKingdom · Jun 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You previously stated:

Rev 9:10-11
And they [the Locusts] had tails like unto scorpions,
[representing false prophets] and there were stings in
their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
And they [the Locusts] had a king over them, which is
the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the
Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue
hath his name Apollyon.

---------------

Yes, I did state that Biblical Truth...
But it is YOU that decided to ADD to what I said.
I NEVER said the "Locusts" came out of the Pit...
since they came out of the SMOKE.

And "Locusts" are used to represent false prophets
is that "news" to you"

For someone who is always lecturing others to READ
for comprehension... you should take the beam out of your
own eye first.

-----------------

When did I ever say humans are in the Pit?
You who likes to talk about reading what was said,
only embarrass yourself when you do what you accuse of others.

Secondly... pay attention now"
The "Locusts" do NOT come OUT of the Pit.
The Pit is the cage of Satan and his demons.
Read what Scripture says (not what you Want IT to say)

Rev 9:2
And he opened the bottomless pit;
and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke
of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened
by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Rev 9:3
And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth:
and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth
have power.

------------

First point: The smoke and darkness of Rev 9 is the SAME
darkness of the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24 and others.

Second point: The "Locusts" DO NOT come out of the Pit.
They come out of the SMOKE (or darkness) which is the
deception of Satan and his demons.

So I corrected your error (again)... you are welcome.

-----------

It would be wise for you to stop pretending you are the
most knowledgeable person around. I also have been a
preacher for about 50 years. Moreover, I was one of the
"ten virgins" of Matthew 25:1-13 and have been preaching
the Biblical mysteries of Daniel [Dan 12:4 and Dan 12:8-12]
AND the fulfillment of Great Tribulation prophecies which
Jesus PROMISED the Last Saints "shall see" [Mat 24:15,33]
And I have been preaching these mysteries during the
"Season and Time" (do you even know when that is?)
for about 13 years.

/

5thKingdom · Jun 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Also, you need to understand when the great tribulation is before lecturing others.

I am VERY AWARE of when the Great Tribulation was...
and it was NOT in 70AD.

First... the Lord Jesus PROMISED the Last Saints
"shall see ALL these things" [Mat 24:15 and 24:33]

So the Lord PROMISED the Last Saints "shall see" the FULFILLMENT
of all Great Tribulation prophecies... that never occurred in 70AD

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Compare to:

Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

LEARN THIS LESSON
The Bible teaches there is a period of time on earth
AFTER the destruction of the Revelation Beast....
but BEFORE the resurrection occurs at His Return

(1) In Rev 11:14 this period is shown as the time AFTER
the end of the Second Woe... but BEFORE the start of the
(eternal) Third Woe.

(2) In Matt 25 this period is shown as the time AFTER the
Last Saints are taken to the Marriage (during the Final Harvest)
but BEFORE the Start of the (eternal) Third Woe at His Return.

(3) In Rev 18 this period is shown as the time AFTER
the Saints are commanded to "Come up here My people"
(again the Final Harvest) and the destruction of Babylon...
which is BEFORE the end of the Second Woe and BEFORE
the Start of the (eternal) Third Woe and His Return.

(4) In Rev 19 this period is shown as the time AFTER
the Saints are called to the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb"
(again the Final Harvest) and AFTER Babylon is destroyed...
which is BEFORE the end of the Second Woe and BEFORE
the Start of the (eternal) Third Woe and His Return.

(5) In Dan 7 this period is NAMED as the "season and time"
AFTER the Saints are given possession of the Kingdom...
(again the Final Harvest) and AFTER the Fourth Beast has
been destroyed... but BEFORE the start of the (eternal)
Third Woe and His Return.

BTW... Why did you NOT KNOW about the "Season and Time"
when the Last Saints preach Biblical mysteries which were
"closed-up" and "sealed" to all previous Saints AND we
preach these mysteries as the Seventh Trumpet...
"begins to sound". Why did you not know this?

(6) This period AFTER the destruction of the Revelation Beast
is shown as the time BETWEEN Rev 19:20 when the Beast is
"cast into the Lake of Fire" and Rev 20:10 when Satan and
the Kingdoms of the World (governments) are Judged and
JOIN THE BEAST in the Lake of Fire.

I think it is safe to say that I have FORGOTTEN more than
you will ever know about the fulfillment of the Great Tribulation
and the TIME on earth AFTER the Revelation Beast is destroyed...
but BEFORE the resurrection occurs at His Return.

So you can STOP all your self-rightous pompous attitude
because you do not even KNOW about the time on earth
AFTER the Second Woe is finished... but BEFORE the
(eternal) Third Woe BEGINS.

/

5thKingdom · Jun 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
The religious Jews of Jerusalem were about to witness the destruction of their temple. Moreover, that ruination would remain in place from its demolition right up until the second coming of the Lord. The desolation of the temple significantly occurred on the wing of 40 years of idolatrous temple sacrifices (exactly a generation)? The statement “there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” was plainly referring to, and correlating with, the warning He had just made to the religious Jews about the impending destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. It was also a direct reference to Daniel 9.

REALLY...
Did the Jews witness this in 70AD?

Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

/

5thKingdom · Jun 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
This can only refer to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem that destroyed the existing socio-political/cultural/religious system of Judaism, which was an offence to God. This people were decimated. Their religious system was effectively brought to nought. Nothing before AD 70, or after it, could compare in regard to the extent of its demise. Luke 21:20-24 reinforces that we are looking at AD 70.

REALLY...
Did the Jews witness this in 70AD?

Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

/

BABerean2 · Jun 25, 2020

5thKingdom said:
I am VERY AWARE of when the Great Tribulation was...
and it was NOT in 70AD.

First... the Lord Jesus PROMISED the Last Saints
"shall see ALL these things" [Mat 24:15 and 24:33]

So the Lord PROMISED the Last Saints "shall see" the FULFILLMENT
of all Great Tribulation prophecies... that never occurred in 70AD

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Compare to:

Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

LEARN THIS LESSON
The Bible teaches there is a period of time on earth
AFTER the destruction of the Revelation Beast....
but BEFORE the resurrection occurs at His Return

(1) In Rev 11:14 this period is shown as the time AFTER
the end of the Second Woe... but BEFORE the start of the
(eternal) Third Woe.

(2) In Matthew 25 this period is shown as the time AFTER the
Last Saints are taken to the Marriage (during the Final Harvest)
but BEFORE the Start of the (eternal) Third Woe.

(3) In Revelation 18 this period is shown as the time AFTER
the Saints are commanded to "Come up here My people"
(again the Final Harvest) and the destruction of Babylon...
which is BEFORE the end of the Second Woe and BEFORE
the Start of the (eternal) Third Woe.

(4) In Revelation 19 this period is shown as the time AFTER
the Saints are called to the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb
(again the Final Harvest) and AFTER Babylon is destroyed...
which is BEFORE the end of the Second Woe and BEFORE
the Start of the (eternal) Third Woe.

(5) In Daniel 7 this period is NAMED as the "season and time"
AFTER the Saints are given possession of the Kingdom...
(again the Final Harvest) and AFTER the Fourth Beast has
been destroyed... but BEFORE the start of the (eternal)
Third Woe.

(6) This period AFTER the destruction of the Revelation Beast
is shown as the time BETWEEN Rev 19:20 when the Beast is
"cast into the Lake of Fire" and Rev 20:10 when Satan and
the Kingdoms of the World (governments) are Judged and
JOIN THE BEAST in the Lake of Fire.

I think it is safe to say that I have FORGOTTEN more than
you will ever know about the fulfillment of the Great Tribulation
and the TIME on earth AFTER the Revelation Beast is destroyed...
but BEFORE the resurrection occurs at His Return.

So you can STOP all your self-rightous pompous attitude
because you do not even KNOW about the time on earth
AFTER the Second Woe is finished... but BEFORE the
(eternal) Third Woe BEGINS.

/

Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)

Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　
Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)

Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　

Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)

Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　

Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution

Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)

Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)

Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)

Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　
Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　
Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　
Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　
Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)

Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　
Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　

Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　
(Look at the reference to Hanukkah in John 10:22, if you want to know what the Jews of Jesus time understood about Antiochus Ephiphanes attacking the city during 167 BC, when his forces killed thousands of Jews, and stopped the sacrifices. Those two things also happened during 70AD.)

Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　

Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (See also Luke 23:28-31.)　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　)

Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ. Paul also referred to this time period in Romans 11:25, and Acts 28:28.)

The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　

Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　

Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "

=======================================

Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.

John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.

The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.

Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

5thKingdom · Jun 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
“there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” was plainly referring to, and correlating with, the warning He had just made to the religious Jews about the impending destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.

BTW... is the "wailing wall" PART of the Temple? I believe it is.
That would mean that NOT every stone was cast down in 70AD.
Kind of destroys your whole narrative doesn't it?

That is what you get from repeating what other told you,
who were only repeating what others told them.

.

BABerean2 · Jun 25, 2020

5thKingdom said:
BTW... is the "wailing wall" PART of the Temple? I believe it is.
That would mean that NOT every stone was cast down in 70AD.
Kind of destroys your whole narrative doesn't it?

No. It is a part of Fort Antonia.
Titus used the Roman fort as his base of operation on the day the Jewish temple was destroyed.

During 73 AD the Jewish leader at Masada said only one thing was left in Jerusalem, and it was that which was built by the Romans.

See the links below.

The Temple Mount and Fort Antonia

Bob Cornuke on the location of the temple

.

5thKingdom · Jun 25, 2020

BABerean2 said:
;;

First... you have NO IDEA what the fulfillment of Daniel's Abomination
of Desolation" was. But I do... would you like for me to show you?

Second... did the Jews SEE THIS in 70AD?

Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

BTW... just let me know if you ever want to REALLY know
what the "Abomination of Desolation" represented in history.
The Bible contains about TWO DOZEN passages on that EVENT.
Did you know that?

/

keras · Jun 25, 2020

TribulationSigns said:
7 times brighter? Based on what Scripture?

Isaiah 30:26a Also verses 27-28 and 30 Read and understand that the Lords Day of wrath will be a massive sunstrike that will be fulfilled literally. Malachi 4:1 & 3

5thKingdom · Jun 25, 2020

BABerean2 said:
No. It is a part of Fort Antonia.
Titus used the Roman fort as his base of operation on the day the Jewish temple was destroyed.

During 73 AD the Jewish leader at Masada said only one thing was left in Jerusalem, and it was that which was built by the Romans.

See the links below.

The Temple Mount and Fort Antonia

Bob Cornuke on the location of the temple

.

The Gospel according to Josephus... that is hilarious.

In any case... did Josephus see this:

Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

BTW... just let me know if you ever want to REALLY know
what the "Abomination of Desolation" represented in history.
The Bible contains about TWO DOZEN passages on that EVENT.
Did you know that?

/

5thKingdom · Jun 25, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.

----------------

I do not want to fight with you - but I wonder WHY you sent me so many
passages (all of which I am intimately aware of) but you did not address
my question about the Jews seeing the events in Mat 24:30-33 AND
(even more importantly) you did not address my points #1-#6 (below)
about the time on earth AFTER the Final Harvest and AFTER the
destruction of the Revelation Beast... But BEFORE the
Seventh Trumpet and the Lord's Return?

Would you care to address the passage and points #1 through #6 now?

-----

So the Lord PROMISED the Last Saints "shall see" the FULFILLMENT
of all Great Tribulation prophecies... that never occurred in 70AD

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The Bible teaches there is a period of time on earth AFTER
the destruction of the Revelation Beast.... but BEFORE the
resurrection occurs at His Return

(1) In Revelation 11:14 this period is shown as the time AFTER
the end of the Second Woe... but BEFORE the start of the
(eternal) Third Woe.

(2) In Matthew 25 this period is shown as the time AFTER the
Last Saints are taken to the Marriage (during the Final Harvest)
but BEFORE the Start of the (eternal) Third Woe.

(3) In Revelation 18 this period is shown as the time AFTER
the Saints are commanded to "Come up here My people"
(again the Final Harvest) and the destruction of Babylon...
which is BEFORE the end of the Second Woe and BEFORE
the Start of the (eternal) Third Woe.

(4) In Revelation 19 this period is shown as the time AFTER
the Saints are called to the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb
(again the Final Harvest) and AFTER Babylon is destroyed...
which is BEFORE the end of the Second Woe and BEFORE
the Start of the (eternal) Third Woe.

(5) In Daniel 7 this period is NAMED as the "season and time"
AFTER the Saints are given possession of the Kingdom...
(again the Final Harvest) and AFTER the Fourth Beast has
been destroyed... but BEFORE the start of the (eternal)
Third Woe.

(6) This period AFTER the destruction of the Revelation Beast
is shown as the time BETWEEN Rev 19:20 when the Beast is
"cast into the Lake of Fire" and Rev 20:10 when Satan and
the Kingdoms of the World (governments) are Judged and
JOIN THE BEAST in the Lake of Fire.

/

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