LDS when and how did God become the father of our spirits

Rescued One · Jun 22, 2020

Andrewn said:
It's the other way around: "Jehovah said unto my Lord." So, here Jehovah is God the Father. In other passages, Jehovah is God the Son.

Are the elohim mentioned in Psalm 82 pre-mortal spirits or post-mortal spirits?

Both pre--mortal and mortal spirits would be "gods in embryo." They will not be fully gods until they earn their exaltations after the resurrection of the just.

Doctrine and Covenants 132:20. “Then shall they be gods, because they have no end”

All human beings are children of Heavenly Parents and have within them the potential to become like God. The Bible contains several passages that refer to the potential of God’s children to become like Him (see Genesis 1:26–27; 3:22; Psalm 82:6; Matthew 5:48; John 10:33–34; Acts 17:29; Romans 8:16–17; 2 Peter 1:4; Revelation 3:21).

Through a series of revelations, the Prophet Joseph Smith learned that those who receive exaltation “are gods, even the sons of God” (D&C 76:58), will “be made equal with [the Lamb of God]” (see D&C 88:106–7), and will “receive of [the Father’s] fulness” (D&C 93:20). The revelation that the Prophet dictated on July 12, 1843, explained that eternal marriage is necessary in order to obtain exaltation and godhood. The Lord taught, “If a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, … then shall they be gods” (D&C 132:19–20).

In an April 1844 Church conference, “Joseph Smith spoke about the nature of God and the future of humankind to the Saints. … He used the occasion in part to reflect upon the death of a Church member named King Follett, who had died unexpectedly a month earlier,” and then taught that God established laws whereby His children could have the opportunity to advance like He has and to be exalted with Him (“Becoming Like God,” topics.lds.org; see also Joseph Smith, Discourse, Nauvoo, Illinois, Apr. 7 1844; in Times and Seasons, Aug. 15, 1844, pages 612–17, josephsmithpapers.org). It is only through the Atonement of Jesus Christ and by keeping God’s laws, including entering into and keeping the new and everlasting covenant of marriage, that a person can attain exaltation.
Chapter 51: Doctrine and Covenants 131; 132:1–33

Andrewn · Jun 23, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
In Psalms 110:1, who is the Lord telling the Lord to sit at His right hand?

If you read Gramps' reply, you will see that he never really answers the question, but goes into trying to prove that the KJV and other versions of the Bible are most likely mistranslated. So you have asked an excellent question.

Gramps' answer is basically that the Hebrew OT is a translation from an original written in Egyptian hieroglyphics. So, what we consider the original Hebrew actually mistranslated Psalm 110!!!

Phoebe Ann said:
Through a series of revelations, the Prophet Joseph Smith learned that those who receive exaltation “are gods, even the sons of God” (D&C 76:58), will “be made equal with [the Lamb of God]” (see D&C 88:106–7), and will “receive of [the Father’s] fulness” (D&C 93:20).

The elohim and sons of elohim are mentioned in passages such as Gen 6:2; Deu 32:8; Psa 82:1, 6; and many others. If they’re exalted human being they must be from a previous creation bec this creation was just beginning, no?

Phoebe Ann said:
The revelation that the Prophet dictated on July 12, 1843, explained that eternal marriage is necessary in order to obtain exaltation and godhood. The Lord taught, “If a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, … then shall they be gods” (D&C 132:19–20).

It’s interesting that the mystic Swedenborg talked in great detail about eternal marriage in the 18th century. Perhaps the angel Moroni appeared to him also.

Thank you very much for the explanations.

Peter1000 · Jun 23, 2020

Andrewn said:
No, no, no. Sebellianism understands Jesus to be a manifestation of Jehovah, who is God the Father, in the flesh. God the Son did not exist before the incarnation except as the Logos of God the Father. It also believes that the Holy Spirit should not be understood as a separate entity but rather to describe God in action. In summary, this is what they believe:

As far as I know, Sabellianism is a manifestation of all 3 of the members of the Trinity. When it is appropriate to have God the Father speaking, his mask is in place or the one God's mode is God the Father.
When it is appropriate for Jesus the Son to be speaking, the one God's mode changes to Jesus, the Son.
When it is appropriate for the Holy Spirit to be speaking, the one God's mode changes to the Holy Spirit.
That is the teaching of Sabellius. McGrath and Trinitarians use the word "Persons" to distinguish between the 3 members. Very little difference, except Sabellius was found guilty of falsifying who God is and was excommunicated, and Trinitarians have won the contest. Using one word different from the Sabellians. They even both use the word "homoousios" that so disturbed the Christians in the 3rd century enough to excommunicate Sabellius and his ideas. But by the 4th century they embraced the unbiblical word.

It doesn't matter what version I used bec all versions say the same thing. I only replaced the word "LORD" in all capitals with "Jehovah" as confirmed by Strong's number in KJV.

So here is the scripture:
Psalm 110 King James Version (KJV)
110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool
So using the title "Jehovah" for both of the "Lords" in this scripture, You get, Jehovah said unto Jehovah, Sit thou at my right hand," until......

So you are saying that the first Jehovah is telling the second Jehovah to come and sit at the right side of the first Jehovah, until the first Jehovah makes the second Jehovah's enemies his footstool.

Now your question? So who is Jehovah in this scripture. To me, "The Lord" is Elohim, Who we designate as God the Father. "my Lord", is Jehovah, who is the God of the OT and David's Lord. Remember Elohim gave all power and authority to Jehovah to create and to govern this earth. So it is Jehovah who is talking to Abraham, Moses, and David, not Elohim.
Elohim stands in the background and surveys all humanity, and all the universe at all times. Jehovah governs this world at all times. It is Jehovah, the God of the OT that was incarnated into the body of Jesus during his flesh appearance on earth to save all mankind through his atonement.

To choose which one is Jehovah is interesting. I have chosen, now what do you think?

Rescued One · Jun 23, 2020

Andrewn said:
Gramps' answer is basically that the Hebrew OT is a translation from an original written in Egyptian hieroglyphics. So, what we consider the original Hebrew actually mistranslated Psalm 110!!!

The elohim and sons of elohim are mentioned in passages such as Gen 6:2; Deu 32:8; Psa 82:1, 6; and many others. If they’re exalted human being they must be from a previous creation bec this creation was just beginning, no?

I honestly don't think LDS understand the implications of their teachings. When I left, I wondered why extremely intelligent people lacked the courage to walk away from it. I don't consider myself as extremely intelligent. I joined when I was a teenager from a non-Christian background.

Andrewn said:
It’s interesting that the mystic Swedenborg talked in great detail about eternal marriage in the 18th century. Perhaps the angel Moroni appeared to him also.

Indeed. My son told me that EO also believe that marriage is eternal.

Andrewn said:
Thank you very much for the explanations.

You're welcome. I do feel that some of my answers are inadequate though due to lack of commentary by LDS leaders and authors.

Andrewn · Jun 24, 2020

Peter1000 said:
110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool
So using the title "Jehovah" for both of the "Lords" in this scripture, You get, Jehovah said unto Jehovah, Sit thou at my right hand," until......

But this is not what the Hebrew says. The speaker is LORD Jehovah and the listener is lord Adonai. The 1901 American Standard Version renders:

Psa 110:1 Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

You render both into "Lord" with small letters and then understand both as "Jehovah," which is _not_ what the Hebrew says.

But even so, you still had to admit that God the Father is Jehovah! And this is also clear in v. 4.

Peter1000 said:
So who is Jehovah in this scripture. To me, "The Lord" is Elohim, Who we designate as God the Father. "my Lord", is Jehovah, who is the God of the OT and David's Lord. Remember Elohim gave all power and authority to Jehovah to create and to govern this earth. So it is Jehovah who is talking to Abraham, Moses, and David, not Elohim.

I understand your position. But in order for this to work one has to suppose that there is an error in the Hebrew wording of verses 1 & 4.

Peter1000 said:
Elohim stands in the background and surveys all humanity, and all the universe at all times. Jehovah governs this world at all times. It is Jehovah, the God of the OT that was incarnated into the body of Jesus during his flesh appearance on earth to save all mankind through his atonement.

To some degree this is orthodox Christian teaching, except that they are one God in the end but have different roles.

Peter1000 said:
To choose which one is Jehovah is interesting. I have chosen, now what do you think?

I don't have the luxury to choose. The Bible says the speaking LORD is Jehovah and the listening lord is Adonai.

Peter1000 · Jun 24, 2020

Andrewn said:
But this is not what the Hebrew says. The speaker is LORD Jehovah and the listener is lord Adonai. The 1901 American Standard Version renders:

Psa 110:1 Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

You render both into "Lord" with small letters and then understand both as "Jehovah," which is _not_ what the Hebrew says.

But even so, you still had to admit that God the Father is Jehovah! And this is also clear in v. 4.

I understand your position. But in order for this to work one has to suppose that there is an error in the Hebrew wording of verses 1 & 4.

To some degree this is orthodox Christian teaching, except that they are one God in the end but have different roles.

I don't have the luxury to choose. The Bible says the speaking LORD is Jehovah and the listening lord is Adonai.

I have always been taught that Adonai is another name for Jehovah. I do not believe that Jehovah is God the Father. I believe Jehovah in Hebrew is Yahweh. Yahweh is the second God introduced in the bible in Genesis 2:4, after Elohim was the first God throughout Genesis 1.

I truly believe that the translators did make a mistake in this scripture. 'The LORD' has to be the first God, Elohim/God the Father, and 'my Lord' has to be Yahweh/Jehovah and Adonai.

In verse 4 it is more evident that God the Father/Elohim will not repent for appointing Jehovah a priest forever after Melchizadec. You have to ask the question, who in Hebrews in the NT was a priest forever after the order of Melchizadec, it was Jesus.
Hebrews 5:8-10 King James Version (KJV)
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Now we see from this scripture that Jesus is the one who is the priest forever after the order of Melchisedec. It is Jesus who was asked to sit on the right side of the Father in Psalms 110.

So another name for Jehovah is Jesus. Jehovah/Adonai of the OT is Jesus of the NT.

In verses 5 to the end, that is a description of Jesus, which was Jehovah/Adonai of the OT.

So to me, God the Father is speaking and Jehovah is listening. It is Jehovah who was appointed a priest forever after the order of M. (see Hebrews 5:8-10)

It is 'my Lord' Jehovah that sits on the right side of 'The LORD' God the Father and strikes through the kings.

Andrewn · Jun 24, 2020

Andrewn said:
Gramps' answer is basically that the Hebrew OT is a translation from an original written in Egyptian hieroglyphics. So, what we consider the original Hebrew actually mistranslated Psalm 110!!!

Peter1000 said:
I truly believe that the translators did make a mistake in this scripture. 'The LORD' has to be the first God, Elohim/God the Father, and 'my Lord' has to be Yahweh/Jehovah and Adonai.

You agree with Gramps, as I wrote above!

Andrewn said:
The Bible says the speaking LORD is Jehovah and the listening lord is Adonai.

Peter1000 said:
So to me, God the Father is speaking and Jehovah is listening. It is Jehovah who was appointed a priest forever after the order of M. (see Hebrews 5:8-10) It is 'my Lord' Jehovah that sits on the right side of 'The LORD' God the Father and strikes through the kings.

Yes, indeed, in both verses 1 & 4 the speaker is Jehovah (God the Father) and the listener is Adonai (God the Son). In other OT passages Jehovah is God the Son. So, Jehovah is both God the Father and God the Son. In other passages Jehovah is God the Holy Spirit. They are one and the same God. Otherwise you have to believe the OT was written in Egyptian Hieroglyphics and Psalm 110 was mistranslated in Hebrew!

Peter1000 · Jun 25, 2020

Andrewn said:
You agree with Gramps, as I wrote above!

Yes, indeed, in both verses 1 & 4 the speaker is Jehovah (God the Father) and the listener is Adonai (God the Son). In other OT passages Jehovah is God the Son. So, Jehovah is both God the Father and God the Son. In other passages Jehovah is God the Holy Spirit. They are one and the same God. Otherwise you have to believe the OT was written in Egyptian Hieroglyphics and Psalm 110 was mistranslated in Hebrew!

Would you agree that another name for Jehovah is Yahweh?

Peter1000 · Jun 25, 2020

Andrewn said:
You agree with Gramps, as I wrote above!

Yes, indeed, in both verses 1 & 4 the speaker is Jehovah (God the Father) and the listener is Adonai (God the Son). In other OT passages Jehovah is God the Son. So, Jehovah is both God the Father and God the Son. In other passages Jehovah is God the Holy Spirit. They are one and the same God. Otherwise you have to believe the OT was written in Hieroglyphics and Psalm 110 was mistranslated in Hebrew!

I do not agree with Gramps that the OT was some rewritten Egyptian Hieroglyphics. Moses wrote the 5 books of the OT from revelation directly from God as they talked together.

However, the translators got it wrong in many ways in the OT. They really got screwed up when Moses used the word Elohim which means Gods. They never got over it and so in many cases in the OT they do not get the Gods (God the FAther and His Son) right. Escpcially in Psalms 110:1. At least they tried to distinguish one God from the other by saying, "The LORD", and "my Lord". But as you can see you still think they are the same God. I do not believe they are the same God.

Andrewn · Jun 25, 2020

Peter1000 said:
Would you agree that another name for Jehovah is Yahweh?

Yes, of course. It's actually the correct name. I only write Jehovah in this Forum bec I think this is how JS referred to Him as. I'm only trying to use I call Him Yahweh everywhere else.

Peter1000 said:
However, the translators got it wrong in many ways in the OT.

Do you mean the English translators? It's impossible to be mistaken in translating Psa 110. The Hebrew is quite clear. if there is a mistake it must be in the Hebrew Text.

Peter1000 said:
They really got screwed up when Moses used the word Elohim which means Gods.

OK, who are the elohim in Deu 32:8 and Psa 82:1 & 6?

Peter1000 said:
At least they tried to distinguish one God from the other by saying, "The LORD", and "my Lord". But as you can see you still think they are the same God. I do not believe they are the same God.

To reach this conclusion, you'd have to believe there is a mistake in the Hebrew MT. How does JS render Psa 110: 1 &4?

Peter1000 · Jun 27, 2020

Andrewn said:
Yes, of course. It's actually the correct name. I only write Jehovah in this Forum bec I think this is how JS referred to Him as. I'm only trying to use I call Him Yahweh everywhere else.

Do you mean the English translators? It's impossible to be mistaken in translating Psa 110. The Hebrew is quite clear. if there is a mistake it must be in the Hebrew Text.

OK, who are the elohim in Deu 32:8 and Psa 82:1 & 6?

To reach this conclusion, you'd have to believe there is a mistake in the Hebrew MT. How does JS render Psa 110: 1 &4?

OK, you believe like I do that Yahweh is Jehovah.

Do you believe that Jehovah of the OT is Jesus Christ of the NT?

Which leaves us with Adoni. To you, who is Adoni? I know he is "my Lord", but is he Jehovah, Christ, or Yehweh or someone else?

Andrewn · Jun 28, 2020

Peter1000 said:
OK, you believe like I do that Yahweh is Jehovah. Do you believe that Jehovah of the OT is Jesus Christ of the NT?

Yes, I do. In one of the "Christians only" forums, I wrote that Mormons are right in believing that Yahweh is Jesus Christ and I got a lot of disagreement with this. But Yahweh, as a title in the OT is sometimes also used for the Heavenly Father and for the Holy Spirit, such as in Psalm 110.

Peter1000 said:
Which leaves us with Adoni. To you, who is Adoni? I know he is "my Lord", but is he Jehovah, Christ, or Yehweh or someone else?

The NT in quoting Psalm 110 leaves no doubt that Adonai is Christ. Also, in the NT the equivalent Greek term Kyrios / Lord is usually used for Christ.

Peter1000 · Jun 28, 2020

Andrewn said:
Yes, I do. In one of the "Christians only" forums, I wrote that Mormons are right in believing that Yahweh is Jesus Christ and I got a lot of disagreement with this. But Yahweh, as a title in the OT is sometimes also used for the Heavenly Father and for the Holy Spirit, such as in Psalm 110.

The NT in quoting Psalm 110 leaves no doubt that Adonai is Christ. Also, in the NT the equivalent Greek term Kyrios / Lord is usually used for Christ.

OK, I believe the same as you.

So let's recap:
Jehovah is Christ
Adoni is Christ
So Jehovah and Adoni have to be the same person.

How is it then, that Jehovah (Christ) says to Adoni (Christ) come and sit at my right hand......?

It seems like Christ is talking to himself to come and sit down by himself.....?

Do you see the problem?

LDS when and how did God become the father of our spirits

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads