LDS Church Fathers challenge for LDS

Daniel Marsh

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The LDS interpretation does not exist in the early church fathers, who were taught by the apostles. I challenge you to research the early church fathers. Make a list of your doctrines. Post only from primary sources with a link to its source. I will not accept secondary or third hand sources.

Here is an example of how I want documentation done:
LDS - The Fathers on John 10:30
 

Daniel Marsh

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Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
 
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He is the way

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I am not sure how you want to do this, but here is a scripture:

(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 5:1)

1 FOR we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
 
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I don't think this is a good challenge to the LDS, who typically regard the Church fathers as representative of a corrupted form of Christianity.

They base this on the lack of official prophets in the Church after the first century and argue that the Church became gradually corrupted due to a lack of that influence. The problems with this view are enormous, mind you. Namely that if prophets were so essential for preserving true teaching, why didn't God send any to people who were clearly faithful and willing to die and live for him in all things?

I have seen multiple Mormon arguments on the Church after the Apostles and their most powerful argument is that the Church was corrupt. Corrupt generally without pointing to specifics in either the morals or practice. I look at the major representatives of the Church throughout the earlier centuries and it's hard to impugn their conduct. Religion was taken way more seriously back then than it is today in the 21st century.

I would suggest to the LDS that since the Fathers differ so much from LDS Christianity and have no knowledge of even a heresy matching the LDS doctrines, many things were obviously not revealed until Joseph Smith. Saint Paul encouraged people not to marry if they were able to and this is unthinkable for a Mormon since that would deprive one of the highest blessing in the next life. The Apostles didn't go around building temples but instead established Churches in homes. Later when the Church was more secure they didn't establish Mormon like Temples.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I am not sure how you want to do this, but here is a scripture:

(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 5:1)

1 FOR we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

I am sure we agree that Jesus taught that there are many mansions in heaven for believers.

I think I posted on that verse before.

2 Corinthians 5 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
5 We know that our body—the tent we live in here on earth—will be destroyed. But when that happens, God will have a home for us to live in. It will not be the kind of home people build here. It will be a home in heaven that will continue forever. 2 But now we are tired of this body. We want God to give us our heavenly home. 3 It will clothe us and we will not be naked. 4 While we live in this tent, we have burdens and so we complain. I don’t mean that we want to remove this tent, but we want to be clothed with our heavenly home. Then this body that dies will be covered with life. 5 This is what God himself made us for. And he has given us the Spirit as the first payment to guarantee the life to come.

6 So we always have confidence. We know that while we live in this body, we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by what we believe will happen, not by what we can see. 8 So I say that we have confidence. And we really want to be away from this body and be at home with the Lord. 9 Our only goal is to always please the Lord, whether we are living here in this body or there with him. 10 We must all stand before Christ to be judged. Everyone will get what they should. They will be paid for whatever they did—good or bad—when they lived in this earthly body.

The text in context can refer to our spiritual body of I cor 15: 44 or to our new homes in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:44
The body that is “planted” is a physical body. When it is raised, it will be a spiritual body. There is a physical body. So there is also a spiritual body.

I think if we study the resurrected body of Jesus while on earth, there are physical characteristics. Jesus' body passed through walls in the physical realm. When Jesus spoke to Thomas, he gave the indication that on earth he was physically raised. We will have to wait till we get to heaven to understand fully this body we get in heaven.

John indicates,

1 John 1:1 We want to tell you about the Word that gives life—the one who existed before the world began. This is the one we have heard and have seen with our own eyes. We saw what he did, and our hands touched him.

This verse would cover before and after the Resurrection.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I don't think this is a good challenge to the LDS, who typically regard the Church fathers as representative of a corrupted form of Christianity.

They base this on the lack of official prophets in the Church after the first century and argue that the Church became gradually corrupted due to a lack of that influence. The problems with this view are enormous, mind you.
The Early Fathers were taught by the Apostles and some even were around to follow Jesus around to hear his teachings for themselves.
As such they are a valuable resource of what early Christians believed.
Start by reading the church manual known as the Didache my friend.
Didache

Namely that if prophets were so essential for preserving true teaching, why didn't God send any to people who were clearly faithful and willing to die and live for him in all things?

Many early Christians even Church Fathers did die for Jesus.
Justin wrote his book on the way to be killed for Jesus.
Many of those at the Council of Nicea had the marks or wounds or scars of being beaten for Jesus on their bodies.

Hebrews 1 rules out prophets on the level of giving new Scriptures after the time of the Apostles.

Where there prophets for guidance? lets find out.

From the Didache,
But permit the prophets to make Thanksgiving as much as they desire.

Chapter 11. Concerning Teachers, Apostles, and Prophets. Whosoever, therefore, comes and teaches you all these things that have been said before, receive him. But if the teacher himself turns and teaches another doctrine to the destruction of this, hear him not. But if he teaches so as to increase righteousness and the knowledge of the Lord, receive him as the Lord. But concerning the apostles and prophets, act according to the decree of the Gospel. Let every apostle who comes to you be received as the Lord. But he shall not remain more than one day; or two days, if there's a need. But if he remains three days, he is a false prophet. And when the apostle goes away, let him take nothing but bread until he lodges. If he asks for money, he is a false prophet. And every prophet who speaks in the Spirit you shall neither try nor judge; for every sin shall be forgiven, but this sin shall not be forgiven. But not every one who speaks in the Spirit is a prophet; but only if he holds the ways of the Lord. Therefore from their ways shall the false prophet and the prophet be known. And every prophet who orders a meal in the Spirit does not eat it, unless he is indeed a false prophet. And every prophet who teaches the truth, but does not do what he teaches, is a false prophet. And every prophet, proved true, working unto the mystery of the Church in the world, yet not teaching others to do what he himself does, shall not be judged among you, for with God he has his judgment; for so did also the ancient prophets. But whoever says in the Spirit, Give me money, or something else, you shall not listen to him. But if he tells you to give for others' sake who are in need, let no one judge him.

Chapter 13. Support of Prophets. But every true prophet who wants to live among you is worthy of his support. So also a true teacher is himself worthy, as the workman, of his support. Every first-fruit, therefore, of the products of wine-press and threshing-floor, of oxen and of sheep, you shall take and give to the prophets, for they are your high priests. But if you have no prophet, give it to the poor. If you make a batch of dough, take the first-fruit and give according to the commandment. So also when you open a jar of wine or of oil, take the first-fruit and give it to the prophets; and of money (silver) and clothing and every possession, take the first-fruit, as it may seem good to you, and give according to the commandment.

Chapter 15. Bishops and Deacons; Christian Reproof. Appoint, therefore, for yourselves, bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men meek, and not lovers of money, and truthful and proved; for they also render to you the service of prophets and teachers. Therefore do not despise them, for they are your honored ones, together with the prophets and teachers. And reprove one another, not in anger, but in peace, as you have it in the Gospel. But to anyone that acts amiss against another, let no one speak, nor let him hear anything from you until he repents. But your prayers and alms and all your deeds so do, as you have it in the Gospel of our Lord.

Chapter 16. Watchfulness; the Coming of the Lord. Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come. But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but those who endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth: first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet. And third, the resurrection of the dead -- yet not of all, but as it is said: "The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him." Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

I have seen multiple Mormon arguments on the Church after the Apostles and their most powerful argument is that the Church was corrupt. Corrupt generally without pointing to specifics in either the morals or practice. I look at the major representatives of the Church throughout the earlier centuries and it's hard to impugn their conduct. Religion was taken way more seriously back then than it is today in the 21st century.

Agreed, but the prophecies of the Great Apostasy has not happened yet.
No One world government of the AntiChrist before the falling away.

I would suggest to the LDS that since the Fathers differ so much from LDS Christianity and have no knowledge of even a heresy matching the LDS doctrines, many things were obviously not revealed until Joseph Smith. Saint Paul encouraged people not to marry if they were able to and this is unthinkable for a Mormon since that would deprive one of the highest blessing in the next life. The Apostles didn't go around building temples but instead established Churches in homes. Later when the Church was more secure they didn't establish Mormon like Temples.

The LDS doctrines of gods does exist among pagans of their day.
Programmable Search Engine
http://www.tektonics.org/copycathub.html
Diognetus. The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus (translation Roberts-Donaldson).

"Minerva was born of the head of Jupiter after he swallowed her mother Metis, having been told that the child he had impregnated her with could be more powerful than he." https://www.historyhit.com/the-gods-and-goddesses-of-pagan-rome/

since the early church fathers are closer to the apostles, witnessed life of Jesus, were in the line of the early church, taught by early christians and so on..... If LDS theology is not there in their writings, then the early church did not teach LDS theology.

Thus the challenge.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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The Seven Books of History Against the Pagans (Fathers of the Church Patristic Series) (English) Short-Run Reprint ed. Edition
by Paulus Orosius (Author), Roy J. Deferrari (Translator)

The Early Church Fathers and Paganism

Shattering the Christ Myth
By James Patrick Holding

Classic Works of Apologetics - Copycat Myth-takes

Here is the big one, who do you think made copies of the scriptures to be handed down to others? If we Christians were to change our writings or change Jewish writings, we would have been exposed.

"
What is a prophet? A prophet is not someone who foretells the future – we would call them a seer,… ….but rather one who after much prayer and discernment (an informed conscience), calls people to take notice of the present time, ….to alert them to the error of their ways and to tell them turn around, to help them get back on the path. To turn around – that is the word repentance – metanoia in Greek – which means to turn around. A prophet is One who speaks God’s truth to others. A prophet is a person who tells it like it is – who calls a spade a spade. Who speaks truth into the current situation when others have become blinded or numb to the reality they are living in. Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, I’m sure you can think of others.

We have always had prophets among us. Prophets are usually not very appealing. We often don’t like what they have to say. Their words go against the grain. " **NEW** Advent 2C 2018 "What is a Prophet?" | Sermons | St. Christopher's Anglican
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Hebrews 1 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
God Has Spoken Through His Son
1 In the past God spoke to our people through the prophets. He spoke to them many times and in many different ways. 2 And now in these last days, God has spoken to us again through his Son. He made the whole world through his Son. And he has chosen his Son to have all things. 3 The Son shows the glory of God. He is a perfect copy of God’s nature, and he holds everything together by his powerful command.

Look at those who prophesied in Acts. It does not match what LDS claims the role of a prophet is.

Role of Prophets in NT:

For those who speak in a tongue do not speak to other people but to God; for nobody understands them, since they are speaking mysteries in the Spirit. On the other hand, those who prophesy speak to other people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation (1 Corinthians 14:2,3).

SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: The division of prophecy (Secunda Secundae Partis, Q. 174)
Who Were the New Testament Prophets?
Category:Prophets of the New Testament - Wikipedia

"Prophecy in this “third category” (the New Testament gift of prophecy) is a regulated1 message or report in human words2 usually made to the gathered believers3 based on a spontaneous, personal revelation from the Holy Spirit4 for the purpose of edification, encouragement, consolation, conviction or guidance5 but not necessarily free from a mixture of human error, and thus needing assessment6 on the basis of the apostolic (Biblical) teaching7 and mature spiritual wisdom.8"
The New Testament Gift of Prophecy

Bible Prophets From New Testament Times
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/...ure-teach-about-office-prophet-gift-prophecy/
Didache



It boils down to the role of a prophet in the NT starting with the examples, in Acts after the Resurrection because the Holy Spirit was not given until then.


book of Acts search on word prophet
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: prophet
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I don't think this is a good challenge to the LDS, who typically regard the Church fathers as representative of a corrupted form of Christianity.

They base this on the lack of official prophets in the Church after the first century and argue that the Church became gradually corrupted due to a lack of that influence. The problems with this view are enormous, mind you. Namely that if prophets were so essential for preserving true teaching, why didn't God send any to people who were clearly faithful and willing to die and live for him in all things?

I have seen multiple Mormon arguments on the Church after the Apostles and their most powerful argument is that the Church was corrupt. Corrupt generally without pointing to specifics in either the morals or practice. I look at the major representatives of the Church throughout the earlier centuries and it's hard to impugn their conduct. Religion was taken way more seriously back then than it is today in the 21st century.

I would suggest to the LDS that since the Fathers differ so much from LDS Christianity and have no knowledge of even a heresy matching the LDS doctrines, many things were obviously not revealed until Joseph Smith. Saint Paul encouraged people not to marry if they were able to and this is unthinkable for a Mormon since that would deprive one of the highest blessing in the next life. The Apostles didn't go around building temples but instead established Churches in homes. Later when the Church was more secure they didn't establish Mormon like Temples.

I forgot to say welcome friend.

In short, what do you see as the role of Prophets in the NT?what is the role of Prophets in the NT?
 
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He is the way

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I am sure we agree that Jesus taught that there are many mansions in heaven for believers.

I think I posted on that verse before.

2 Corinthians 5 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
5 We know that our body—the tent we live in here on earth—will be destroyed. But when that happens, God will have a home for us to live in. It will not be the kind of home people build here. It will be a home in heaven that will continue forever. 2 But now we are tired of this body. We want God to give us our heavenly home. 3 It will clothe us and we will not be naked. 4 While we live in this tent, we have burdens and so we complain. I don’t mean that we want to remove this tent, but we want to be clothed with our heavenly home. Then this body that dies will be covered with life. 5 This is what God himself made us for. And he has given us the Spirit as the first payment to guarantee the life to come.

6 So we always have confidence. We know that while we live in this body, we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by what we believe will happen, not by what we can see. 8 So I say that we have confidence. And we really want to be away from this body and be at home with the Lord. 9 Our only goal is to always please the Lord, whether we are living here in this body or there with him. 10 We must all stand before Christ to be judged. Everyone will get what they should. They will be paid for whatever they did—good or bad—when they lived in this earthly body.

The text in context can refer to our spiritual body of I cor 15: 44 or to our new homes in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:44
The body that is “planted” is a physical body. When it is raised, it will be a spiritual body. There is a physical body. So there is also a spiritual body.

I think if we study the resurrected body of Jesus while on earth, there are physical characteristics. Jesus' body passed through walls in the physical realm. When Jesus spoke to Thomas, he gave the indication that on earth he was physically raised. We will have to wait till we get to heaven to understand fully this body we get in heaven.

John indicates,

1 John 1:1 We want to tell you about the Word that gives life—the one who existed before the world began. This is the one we have heard and have seen with our own eyes. We saw what he did, and our hands touched him.

This verse would cover before and after the Resurrection.
Thank you for posting those scriptures. I believe that in this scripture:

(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 5:1)

1 FOR we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

The building of God refers to the spirit as in this scripture:

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:7)

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

That is because when we are in the body we are absent from God, but when we are absent from the body we are with God.
 
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Peter1000

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I don't think this is a good challenge to the LDS, who typically regard the Church fathers as representative of a corrupted form of Christianity.

They base this on the lack of official prophets in the Church after the first century and argue that the Church became gradually corrupted due to a lack of that influence. The problems with this view are enormous, mind you. Namely that if prophets were so essential for preserving true teaching, why didn't God send any to people who were clearly faithful and willing to die and live for him in all things?

I have seen multiple Mormon arguments on the Church after the Apostles and their most powerful argument is that the Church was corrupt. Corrupt generally without pointing to specifics in either the morals or practice. I look at the major representatives of the Church throughout the earlier centuries and it's hard to impugn their conduct. Religion was taken way more seriously back then than it is today in the 21st century.

I would suggest to the LDS that since the Fathers differ so much from LDS Christianity and have no knowledge of even a heresy matching the LDS doctrines, many things were obviously not revealed until Joseph Smith. Saint Paul encouraged people not to marry if they were able to and this is unthinkable for a Mormon since that would deprive one of the highest blessing in the next life. The Apostles didn't go around building temples but instead established Churches in homes. Later when the Church was more secure they didn't establish Mormon like Temples.

The seven churches of Asia is a pretty good look at the level of activity in these churches. From Revelations 2-3, the Lord declares to John that the churches had some good points and had some bad points. And then added that if they did not repent and get back to their first love, (which is him) he would remove them as churches. Here is one sample:
Revelation 3:14-17 King James Version (KJV)
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Do any of the orignal 7 churches of Revelations still exist?

This is what Paul says in fact:
2 Timothy 1:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

All the churches in Asia have turned away from me. I suggest that all those churches that turned away from Paul, also turned away from Christ.

In any event the 7 churches of Asia do not exist anymore, so aparently they did not repent and get back to their first love, Jesus Christ.

If you take Asia away from the church that represents 1/3 of all the christian church that no longer are true Christians.

By Pauls time the mysteries of evil were just getting started, by 50 years after the last apostle, and their disciples, the church was like the hit tv series, a Game of Thrones. A multiple headed beast and all the heads fighting each other for supremacy. The supreme church with the highest and most adorned golden throne where sits the cruel and ruthless vicar of Christ. Read the history and you will see that I am right.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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The seven churches of Asia is a pretty good look at the level of activity in these churches. From Revelations 2-3, the Lord declares to John that the churches had some good points and had some bad points. And then added that if they did not repent and get back to their first love, (which is him) he would remove them as churches. Here is one sample:
Revelation 3:14-17 King James Version (KJV)
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Do any of the orignal 7 churches of Revelations still exist?

This is what Paul says in fact:
2 Timothy 1:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

All the churches in Asia have turned away from me. I suggest that all those churches that turned away from Paul, also turned away from Christ.

In any event the 7 churches of Asia do not exist anymore, so aparently they did not repent and get back to their first love, Jesus Christ.

If you take Asia away from the church that represents 1/3 of all the christian church that no longer are true Christians.

By Pauls time the mysteries of evil were just getting started, by 50 years after the last apostle, and their disciples, the church was like the hit tv series, a Game of Thrones. A multiple headed beast and all the heads fighting each other for supremacy. The supreme church with the highest and most adorned golden throne where sits the cruel and ruthless vicar of Christ. Read the history and you will see that I am right.

We actually have evidence of the faithfulness of some of the Churches of Asia. Polycarp of Smyrna, being chief among them and representing the faithful there. He clearly refers to Paul multiple times in his Epistles and is evidence that the Church at Smyrna didn't completely abandon Paul, at least not the extent Mormons want. We also have not only his Epistle but also his example of him preferring death for his King (Christ) over offers of the Romans to be spared.

Not only do we have Polycarp but we have Ignatius' letters to the faithful of those Churches, such as to Ephesus, Smyrna and Philedelphia. No doubt you dissagree with Ignatius in many of the things he said, but I ask in the absence of a a Prophet which God should have sent what can you expect of the Church? They had to decide on matters of leadership and clearly believed the Apostles had left them the Bishopric model.

So if you're going to argue for a universal apostasy, you will have to do so on the basis of what was clearly known in the first and second century. You can't just assert that your Mormon doctrines were believed by the Apostles and Christ and assert they were lost by corruption. We have no evidence of a Prophetic model of leadership being intended by the Apostles, for if they intended it they would have appointed apostles or if it was not in their power to do so, God should have appointed Apostles. Since God did not appoint Apostles and Prophets and left the Church to it's own devices I think it's a miracle they were able to even survive and flourish, them being a corrupt form of Christianity! Think about it, from the Mormon perspective the pagans had more correct than the Christians did.

I might be partial to your description of the Church as game of thrones in latter centuries, especially as the Church became more political after Constantine, but in the second century? No, not so much. There were obviously conflicts but nothing like the disputes between Bishops of different sees when the Church became dominant. Still, not even that impugns the Church since we can point to faithful ministers and shepherds who kept the faith even in those times.

I still prefer those fathers to the person of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. Ignatius was far superior to Smith in his devotion to Christ and willingness to abandon all earthly pleasure for him.
 
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We actually have evidence of the faithfulness of some of the Churches of Asia. Polycarp of Smyrna, being chief among them and representing the faithful there. He clearly refers to Paul multiple times in his Epistles and is evidence that the Church at Smyrna didn't completely abandon Paul, at least not the extent Mormons want. We also have not only his Epistle but also his example of him preferring death for his King (Christ) over offers of the Romans to be spared.

Not only do we have Polycarp but we have Ignatius' letters to the faithful of those Churches, such as to Ephesus, Smyrna and Philedelphia. No doubt you dissagree with Ignatius in many of the things he said, but I ask in the absence of a a Prophet which God should have sent what can you expect of the Church? They had to decide on matters of leadership and clearly believed the Apostles had left them the Bishopric model.

So if you're going to argue for a universal apostasy, you will have to do so on the basis of what was clearly known in the first and second century. You can't just assert that your Mormon doctrines were believed by the Apostles and Christ and assert they were lost by corruption. We have no evidence of a Prophetic model of leadership being intended by the Apostles, for if they intended it they would have appointed apostles or if it was not in their power to do so, God should have appointed Apostles. Since God did not appoint Apostles and Prophets and left the Church to it's own devices I think it's a miracle they were able to even survive and flourish, them being a corrupt form of Christianity! Think about it, from the Mormon perspective the pagans had more correct than the Christians did.

I might be partial to your description of the Church as game of thrones in latter centuries, especially as the Church became more political after Constantine, but in the second century? No, not so much. There were obviously conflicts but nothing like the disputes between Bishops of different sees when the Church became dominant. Still, not even that impugns the Church since we can point to faithful ministers and shepherds who kept the faith even in those times.

I still prefer those fathers to the person of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. Ignatius was far superior to Smith in his devotion to Christ and willingness to abandon all earthly pleasure for him.
Polycarp was a good bishop and died for his testimony of Jesus Christ. But the church he was bishop of does not exist today. Today in Izmir, surrounding old Smyrna, of 4,000,000 muslims, there are 12 small Christian churches of different denominations. So of the 7 churches, this one only has a small smattering of Christians amoungst millions of muslims. All divided among 12 different churches. What happened to the original church?

Peramam, Ephesus, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, laodecia have zero Christians, those churches do not exist.

Yes, there are some Christians in Turkey, but for the most part Pauls words were right. All Asia has turned from me.

I have studied the apostacy for 68 years and know that there is no Christian church today that is organized in any way like the Church of Jesus Christ of First-century Saints was. NONE.

If you think I am wrong show me a church that is organized like the first century church.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Polycarp was a good bishop and died for his testimony of Jesus Christ. But the church he was bishop of does not exist today. Today in Izmir, surrounding old Smyrna, of 4,000,000 muslims, there are 12 small Christian churches of different denominations.

I'm not sure what you think this information means. Would we expect the churches to be consistently there and undisturbed by the events of history? Arab invasions? Crusader invasions? Turkish invasions and civil wars? Yet we do have persistent communities of Christians elsewhere in the world. Greece, Italy, Egypt and other parts of Europe and the middle east.

I'm confused that you consider Polycarp a good Bishop when he very likely agreed with Ignatius on the Episcopal system of Church governance. He does say in his letter that he agrees with everything in the Ignatian corpus.

So of the 7 churches, this one only has a small smattering of Christians amoungst millions of muslims. All divided among 12 different churches. What happened to the original church?

What are you classifying as an original Church? We can point to ancient communions which have existed since the time of the Apostles and we can see no clear break in them. Ignatius wrote to the Roman Church, imploring them not to rescue him. The Roman Church wrote to the Corinthian Church, admonishing them for getting rid of their rightly appointed Pastors. Ireaneaus in Lyon was able to help the Bishop of Rome in a dispute with Eastern Christians over the issue of Pascha.

These are just some prominent examples but we see this interconnectedness of the Church throughout the epistles of the Church fathers. They weren't in utter isolation, separated by a void, but were connected via the same Roman system that Paul made use of.

So while the original Church of the Ephesians doesn't exist, that can't suggest a wider authority or mutual recognition between that Church and latter ones. Especially as the Bishopric of Constantinople came to prominence as one of the five major sees. Obviously this Church came under the authority of the Patriarchate of Constantinople and when Muslims invaded and dispossessed the majority Christian inhabitants there the physical location of the Church is all that ceased to exist. The people, the faithful, did not and continued in places where they could, like in Greece.


Peramam, Ephesus, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, laodecia have zero Christians, those churches do not exist.

These physical Churches don't have to exist for the people of the Church to be preserved.

Yes, there are some Christians in Turkey, but for the most part Pauls words were right. All Asia has turned from me.

You're using Paul's words to talk about the later circumstance of Asia minor. Paul was not referring to Islamic invasions which dispossessed Christians but the apparent lack of aid those Churches in Asia were not offering him. I would point out that Paul is being hyperbolic. He acknowledges in the same chapter one Onesiphorus of Ephesus who did give him aid.

You also cannot use that one circumstance to condemn the latter generation. You've admitted Polycarp was a good Bishop, he was the Bishop of the Church of Smyrna. He obviously didn't abandon Paul and nor did the wider Church at large (considering they canonized his Epistles and recognized them as scripture.

I have studied the apostacy for 68 years and know that there is no Christian church today that is organized in any way like the Church of Jesus Christ of First-century Saints was. NONE.

If you think I am wrong show me a church that is organized like the first century church.

Except the LDS Church does not operate like the New Testament Church does. You don't hold property in common. The Apostles didn't commit polygamy and Polyamory like the so called restored Church did and virginity was held in high regard by the Apostolic Church.

That being said I don't think any Church can operate under the same rules and functions of the first century Church because circumstances change. The Apostles didn't leave an Apostolic leadership, rather they left congregations whom were headed by a Bishop and this served as the primary model of leadership the figures of the Ante-Nicene period inherited. They had to face different questions and challenges that the Apostles didn't address directly and thus organisation and discipline was always subject to change.

The world, forces the Church to clarify itself. Take for instance the Donatist schism. There wasn't a clear Apostolic injunction as to what do with people who had sacrificed to Caesar during the persecution. The Church had to work that out.

Not even the LDS have eternal standards on these things and regularly receive 'revelation' changing their practice with the times. So why condemn my Church for not acting like the Apostolic Church when yours doesn't either? Do you share everything in common with your fellow Mormons? Is your property your Bishops? No, it's yours.
 
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We actually have evidence of the faithfulness of some of the Churches of Asia. Polycarp of Smyrna, being chief among them and representing the faithful there. He clearly refers to Paul multiple times in his Epistles and is evidence that the Church at Smyrna didn't completely abandon Paul, at least not the extent Mormons want. We also have not only his Epistle but also his example of him preferring death for his King (Christ) over offers of the Romans to be spared.

Not only do we have Polycarp but we have Ignatius' letters to the faithful of those Churches, such as to Ephesus, Smyrna and Philedelphia. No doubt you dissagree with Ignatius in many of the things he said, but I ask in the absence of a a Prophet which God should have sent what can you expect of the Church? They had to decide on matters of leadership and clearly believed the Apostles had left them the Bishopric model.

So if you're going to argue for a universal apostasy, you will have to do so on the basis of what was clearly known in the first and second century. You can't just assert that your Mormon doctrines were believed by the Apostles and Christ and assert they were lost by corruption. We have no evidence of a Prophetic model of leadership being intended by the Apostles, for if they intended it they would have appointed apostles or if it was not in their power to do so, God should have appointed Apostles. Since God did not appoint Apostles and Prophets and left the Church to it's own devices I think it's a miracle they were able to even survive and flourish, them being a corrupt form of Christianity! Think about it, from the Mormon perspective the pagans had more correct than the Christians did.

I might be partial to your description of the Church as game of thrones in latter centuries, especially as the Church became more political after Constantine, but in the second century? No, not so much. There were obviously conflicts but nothing like the disputes between Bishops of different sees when the Church became dominant. Still, not even that impugns the Church since we can point to faithful ministers and shepherds who kept the faith even in those times.

I still prefer those fathers to the person of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. Ignatius was far superior to Smith in his devotion to Christ and willingness to abandon all earthly pleasure for him.

Acts 14:23
They also chose elders for each church and stopped eating for a period of time to pray for them. These elders were men who had put their trust in the Lord Jesus, so Paul and Barnabas put them in his care.

Acts 15:6Then the apostles and the elders gathered to study this problem.

Acts 21:1[ Paul Goes to Jerusalem ] After we said goodbye to the elders, we sailed away straight to Cos island. The next day we went to the island of Rhodes, and from there we went to Patara.

Philippians 1:1Greetings from Paul and Timothy, servants of Jesus Christ. To all of you in Philippi who are God’s holy people in Christ Jesus, including your elders and special servants.

1 Timothy 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not double tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1 Timothy 4:14Remember to use the gift you have, which was given to you through a prophecy when the group of elders laid their hands on you.

1 Timothy 5:16-18 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
16 If any woman who is a believer has widows in her family, she[a] should take care of them herself. Then the church will not have that burden and will be able to care for the widows who have no one else to help them.

More About Elders and Other Matters
17 The elders who lead the church in a good way should receive double honor—in particular, those who do the work of counseling and teaching. 18 As the Scriptures say, “When a work animal is being used to separate grain, don’t keep it from eating the grain.”[c] And the Scriptures also say, “A worker should be given his pay.

Titus 1:4-6 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
4 To Titus, a true son to me in the faith we share together.

Grace and peace to you from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Titus’ Work in Crete
5 I left you in Crete so that you could finish doing what still needed to be done. And I also left you there so that you could choose men to be elders in every town. 6 To be an elder, a man must not be guilty of living in a wrong way. He must be faithful to his wife,[a] and his children must be faithful to God. They must not be known as children who are wild or don’t obey.

James 5:14Are you sick? Ask the elders of the church to come and rub oil on you in the name of the Lord and pray for you.

1 Peter 5:1
[ The Flock of God ] Now I have something to say to the elders in your group. I am also an elder. I myself have seen Christ’s sufferings. And I will share in the glory that will be shown to us. I beg you to

1 Peter 5:5
Young people, I have something to say to you too. You should accept the authority of the elders. You should all have a humble attitude in dealing with each other. “God is against the proud, but he is kind to the humble.”

2 John 1:1
Greetings from the Elder.

3 John 1:1
Greetings from the Elder. To my dear friend Gaius, a person I truly love.

Revelation 11:17
The elders said, “We give thanks to you, Lord God All-Powerful. You are the one who is and who always was. We thank you because you have used your great power and have begun to rule.

Acts 1:20
For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Philippians 1:1
Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

1 Timothy 3:1
This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

1 Timothy 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Titus 1:7
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

1 Peter 2:25 speaks about Jesus.
For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
 
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"The New Testament evidence itself seems to favor a plurality of elders as the standard model. The book of Acts tells us that as the apostles planted churches, they appointed “elders” (from the Greek term πρεσβυτέρος) to oversee them (Acts 11:30Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); 14:23Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); 15:2Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); 20:17Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)). Likewise, Titus is told to “appoint elders in every town” (Titus 1:5Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)).

A very similar word, ἐπι,σκoπος (“bishop” or “overseer”), is used in other contexts to describe what appears to be the same ruling office (Phil 1:1Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); 1 Tim 3:1-7Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)). The overlap between these two terms is evident in Acts 20:28Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) when Paul, while addressing the Ephesian “elders” (πρεσβυτέρους), declares that “The Holy Spirit has made you overseers (ἐπισκόπους).” Thus, the New Testament writings indicate that the office of elder/bishop is functionally one and the same.

But, what about the church after the New Testament? Did they maintain the model of multiple elders? Three quick examples suggest they maintained this structure at least for a little while:

1. At one point, the Didache addresses the issue of church government directly, “And so, elect for yourselves bishops (ἐπισκόπους) and deacons who are worthy of the Lord, gentle men who are not fond of money, who are true and approved” (15.1). It is noteworthy that the author mentions plural bishops—not a single ruling bishop—and that he places these bishops alongside the office of deacon, as Paul himself does (e.g., Phil 1:1Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); 1 Tim 3:1-13Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)). Thus, as noted above, it appears that the bishops described here are essentially equivalent to the office of “elder.”"
...
Shepherd of Hermas (c.150) provides another confirmation of this governance structure in the second century. After Hermas writes down the angelic vision in a book, he is told, “you will read yours in this city, with the presbyters who lead the church” (Vis. 8.3).Here we are told that the church leadership structure is a plurality of “presbyters” (πρεσβυτέρων) or elders. The author also uses the term “bishop,” but always in the plural and often alongside the office of deacon (Vis. 13.1; Sim. 104.2)." Were Early Churches Ruled by Elders or a Single Bishop?

"The presbyter is the same as the bishop, and before parties had been raised up in religion by the provocations of Satan, the churches were governed by the Senate of the presbyters. But as each one sought to appropriate to himself those whom he had baptized, instead of leading them to Christ, it was appointed that one of the presbyters, elected by his colleagues, should be set over all the others, and have chief supervision over the general well-being of the community. . . Without doubt it is the duty of the presbyters to bear in mind that by the discipline of the Church they are subordinated to him who has been given them as their head, but it is fitting that the bishops, on their side, do not forget that if they are set over the presbyters, it is the result of tradition, and not by the fact of a particular institution by the Lord (Comm. Tit. 1.7Open in Logos Bible Software (if available))."
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Bishops (episcopoi) have the care of multiple congregations and appoint, ordain, and discipline priests and deacons. They sometimes appear to be called “evangelists” in the New Testament. Examples of first-century bishops include Timothy and Titus (1 Tim. 5:19–22; 2 Tim. 4:5; Titus 1:5).

Priests (presbuteroi) are also known as “presbyters” or “elders.” In fact, the English term “priest” is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros. They have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15).

Deacons (diakonoi) are the assistants of the bishops and are responsible for teaching and administering certain Church tasks, such as the distribution of food (Acts 6:1–6).
What the Early Church Believed: Bishop, Priest, and Deacon

By reading the Biblical texts one can see that the above is correct.
 
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Polycarp was a good bishop and died for his testimony of Jesus Christ. But the church he was bishop of does not exist today. Today in Izmir, surrounding old Smyrna, of 4,000,000 muslims, there are 12 small Christian churches of different denominations. So of the 7 churches, this one only has a small smattering of Christians amoungst millions of muslims. All divided among 12 different churches. What happened to the original church?

Peramam, Ephesus, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, laodecia have zero Christians, those churches do not exist.

Yes, there are some Christians in Turkey, but for the most part Pauls words were right. All Asia has turned from me.

I have studied the apostacy for 68 years and know that there is no Christian church today that is organized in any way like the Church of Jesus Christ of First-century Saints was. NONE.

If you think I am wrong show me a church that is organized like the first century church.

Christians make up the churches, not the buildings. Christians were either killed by Muslims or Moved to another place. There is no record that any of them became Muslims that I know of.
 
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