LDS Did you keep your First Estate?

Peter1000 · Jun 23, 2020

BigDaddy4 said:
Can you lose your 3rd estate?

I do not think so. I believe your position is in stone. But that is what we have been given today. Do we have the complete outlook as God has it. No. So there could be some other information that we are not privy to that only God knows.

Rescued One · Jun 23, 2020

Peter1000 said:
Is he a weak God, like you portray our God because he did not save these 3 notorious people?
Seems like a double standard here.

Your god sent people here and failed to acheive his glory assuring the eternal life of people he sent here. Yet you said they will probably go to a kingdom of glory (which BTW is place of punishment because he can't tolerate sin). You also said:

"Jeffrey Dalmer, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin will all be judged according to their works and will find themselves in one of the 3 glories in heaven. Probably the lower level called the Terrestria kingdom."

Please let me correct you. In Mormonism, they go to the TELESTIAL kingdom.

Peter1000 said:
They will be visited by the Holy Spirit from time to time. No progression, no expansion, understanding the profound reality of the second death, for they will never see the Father or the Sons face, forever and ever.

Do you still think those who experience the second death are in a kingdom of glory and are visited by the Holy Spirit? For what purpose does the Holy Spirit visit them? :scratch:

BigDaddy4 · Jun 23, 2020

Peter1000 said:
I do not think so. I believe your position is in stone. But that is what we have been given today. Do we have the complete outlook as God has it. No. So there could be some other information that we are not privy to that only God knows.

But you don't know for sure, do you? Is that correct?

Rescued One · Jun 23, 2020

BigDaddy4 said:
But you don't know for sure, do you? Is that correct?

After the judgment, their fate has been determined. They can't progress to a higher kingdom. To be damned means their progression is stopped. Is that what you're asking?

I have until now only heard of first and second estates. So I found this diagram online:

The Principle of Eternal Lives

Now it's clear as mud. I don't even know who this guy is.

He is the way · Jun 24, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
After the judgment, their fate has been determined. They can't progress to a higher kingdom. To be damned means their progression is stopped. Is that what you're asking?

I have until now only heard of first and second estates. So I found this diagram online:

View attachment 279452
The Principle of Eternal Lives

Now it's clear as mud. I don't even know who this guy is.

I find it interesting that he said: "Some mysteries are withheld because it may be harmful to some to receive a fullness if they are not prepared.For this reason, I am instructed to withhold a detailed explanation of the nature of the estates beyond the Third Estate. These you will need to ask the Lord directly and He will answer you when the time is appropriate." This is the same thing we get from the Bible and the D&C:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 3:2)

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

(New Testament | Hebrews 5:12 - 14)

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 19:21 - 24)

21 And I command you that you preach naught but repentance, and show not these things unto the world until it is wisdom in me.
22 For they cannot bear meat now, but milk they must receive; wherefore, they must not know these things, lest they perish.
23 Learn of me, and listen to my words; walk in the meekness of my Spirit, and you shall have peace in me.
24 I am Jesus Christ; I came by the will of the Father, and I do his will.

BigDaddy4 · Jun 24, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
After the judgment, their fate has been determined. They can't progress to a higher kingdom. To be damned means their progression is stopped. Is that what you're asking?

I have until now only heard of first and second estates. So I found this diagram online:

View attachment 279452
The Principle of Eternal Lives

Now it's clear as mud. I don't even know who this guy is.

Not exactly what I was asking. It seems that at each level of "estate", some are lost along the way. In the first estate in heaven, some fell away and followed satan. In the 2nd estate on earth, some have fallen/ will fall away if they don't "keep the commandments" and such. So, when they get to their 3rd estate, will more continue to fall away somehow?

Peter1000 · Jun 24, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
Your god sent people here and failed to acheive his glory assuring the eternal life of people he sent here. Yet you said they will probably go to a kingdom of glory (which BTW is place of punishment because he can't tolerate sin). You also said:

"Jeffrey Dalmer, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin will all be judged according to their works and will find themselves in one of the 3 glories in heaven. Probably the lower level called the Terrestria kingdom."

Please let me correct you. In Mormonism, they go to the TELESTIAL kingdom.

Do you still think those who experience the second death are in a kingdom of glory and are visited by the Holy Spirit? For what purpose does the Holy Spirit visit them?

Please, you don't have to be quite so dramatic about a mistake I made in Mormonism. But you are right, it is the Telestial glory.

All people who kept their first estate will be in heaven. But it is one thing to be in the Telestial kingdom of heaven and another thing to be in the Celestial kingdom of heaven.

We have not been told what the administraion of the Holy Spirit includes in regards to the Telestial kindgom, only that he will visit from time to time.

What you have to remember is this scripture:
Philippians 2:9-11 King James Version (KJV)
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth,
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

And you will notice that according to Paul, this is the requirement to be saved.
Romans 10:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

There will be those that bend their knees willingly to Jesus and then there will be those that are going to bend their knees in disgust. But both are going to know by the judgement that Jesus was raised by God from the dead. So all but a few will be saved.

The question is where will they be saved to? The Church of Jesus Christ has the perfect answer. They will be saved in heaven, but the lowest level of heaven, far away from God and Jesus, and they will suffer the second death. Fortunately, they will be in a place whose beauty is beyond our human thoughts, and there they will dwell for eternity.

Interesting discussion.

Peter1000 · Jun 24, 2020

BigDaddy4 said:
Not exactly what I was asking. It seems that at each level of "estate", some are lost along the way. In the first estate in heaven, some fell away and followed satan. In the 2nd estate on earth, some have fallen/ will fall away if they don't "keep the commandments" and such. So, when they get to their 3rd estate, will more continue to fall away somehow?

No. After the judgement, and the 3rd estate is populated, this is the end. Whatever level they rise to, will be where they will dwell forever and ever.

Rescued One · Jun 25, 2020

Peter1000 said:
Please, you don't have to be quite so dramatic about a mistake I made in Mormonism. But you are right, it is the Telestial glory.

I wasn't dramatic.

Peter1000 said:
All people who kept their first estate will be in heaven.

In Christianity heaven is where God dwells. In Mormonism gods dwell only in the highest level of the celestial kingdom.

Those individuals who don't accept Joseph Smith, and obey all the commandments and ordinances of Mormonism are outside in another kingdom.

"If you would become a son or daughter of God and an heir of the kingdom, then you must go to the [temple] house of the Lord and receive blessings which there can be obtained and which cannot be obtained elsewhere, and you mudt keep those commandments and those covenants to the end. . . .

“The ordinances of the temple, the endowment and sealings, pertain to exaltation in the celestial kingdom, where the sons and daughters are. The sons and daughters are not outside in some other kingdom. The sons and daughters go into the house, belong to the household, have access to the home. ‘In my Father’s house are many mansions’ [John 14:2]. Sons and daughters have access to the home where he dwells, and you cannot receive that access until you go to the temple."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:40

Peter1000 said:
But it is one thing to be in the Telestial kingdom of heaven and another thing to be in the Celestial kingdom of heaven.

We have not been told what the administraion of the Holy Spirit includes in regards to the Telestial kindgom, only that he will visit from time to time.

A study of Mormonism and common sense tells everyone that there is no logical reason for the Mormon holy ghost to vist those incividuals.

Peter1000 said:
What you have to remember is this scripture:
Philippians 2:9-11 King James Version (KJV)
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth,
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I remember the majority of New Testament verses. What you have to do is abandon the teachings and interpretations of Mormonism.

Peter1000 said:
And you will notice that according to Paul, this is the requirement to be saved.
Romans 10:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Paul wasn't speaking to those who have been buried. We can't wait and hope to confess Christ in our graves.

Hebrews 9
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Peter1000 said:
There will be those that bend their knees willingly to Jesus and then there will be those that are going to bend their knees in disgust. But both are going to know by the judgement that Jesus was raised by God from the dead. So all but a few will be saved.

The question is where will they be saved to?

God's dwelling place is where the saved will dwell. Read the Bible.

Peter1000 said:
The Church of Jesus Christ has the perfect answer. They will be saved in heaven, but the lowest level of heaven, far away from God and Jesus, and they will suffer the second death. Fortunately, they will be in a place whose beauty is beyond our human thoughts, and there they will dwell for eternity.

The second death is not to a place of beauty. Any place without the Only True God will be hell!

Rescued One · Jun 25, 2020

BigDaddy4 said:
Not exactly what I was asking. It seems that at each level of "estate", some are lost along the way. In the first estate in heaven, some fell away and followed satan. In the 2nd estate on earth, some have fallen/ will fall away if they don't "keep the commandments" and such. So, when they get to their 3rd estate, will more continue to fall away somehow?

The second estate (mortality) is a time to be tested. If we pass the test, we won't have another test.

You will recall Abraham’s saying that in the spirit world the Lord promised that “they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; … and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.”

We know that we kept our first estate because we are here in mortality, and by receiving our bodies we have been added upon. We further know that the gospel teaches us how we must keep this, our second estate, in order that in the next life, the third estate, we may “have glory added upon [our] heads for ever and ever.”
We Are Children of God

He is the way · Jun 25, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
I wasn't dramatic.

In Christianity heaven is where God dwells. In Mormonism gods dwell only in the highest level of the celestial kingdom.

Those individuals who don't accept Joseph Smith, and obey all the commandments and ordinances of Mormonism are outside in another kingdom.

"If you would become a son or daughter of God and an heir of the kingdom, then you must go to the [temple] house of the Lord and receive blessings which there can be obtained and which cannot be obtained elsewhere, and you mudt keep those commandments and those covenants to the end. . . .

“The ordinances of the temple, the endowment and sealings, pertain to exaltation in the celestial kingdom, where the sons and daughters are. The sons and daughters are not outside in some other kingdom. The sons and daughters go into the house, belong to the household, have access to the home. ‘In my Father’s house are many mansions’ [John 14:2]. Sons and daughters have access to the home where he dwells, and you cannot receive that access until you go to the temple."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:40

A study of Mormonism and common sense tells everyone that there is no logical reason for the Mormon holy ghost to vist those incividuals.

I remember the majority of New Testament verses. What you have to do is abandon the teachings and interpretations of Mormonism.

Paul wasn't speaking to those who have been buried. We can't wait and hope to confess Christ in our graves.

Hebrews 9
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

God's dwelling place is where the saved will dwell. Read the Bible.

The second death is not to a place of beauty. Any place without the Only True God will be hell!

You said: "Any place without the Only True God will be hell!

Does that mean we are in Hell?

Rescued One · Jun 25, 2020

He is the way said:
You said: "Any place without the Only True God will be hell!

Does that mean we are in Hell?

Cute. "Will be" refers to the future. Read statements in context.

He is the way · Jun 25, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
Cute. "Will be" refers to the future. Read statements in context.

Won't He still be before all things? He can go where He pleases.

(New Testament | Colossians 1:16 - 17)

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Ran77 · Jun 26, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
In Christianity heaven is where God dwells. In Mormonism gods dwell only in the highest level of the celestial kingdom.

Since mainstream Christianity limits itself to an either/or afterlife, this is a flawed comparison. The three-tier system the LDS understand cannot fit into the limited model provided by mainstream Christianity.

According to mainstream Christianity, a person either accepts God and is saved or they reject God and are eternally punished. This is represented in the Heaven or Hell options once we die. Since mainstream Christianity limits itself to only these two options, the Celestial and Terrestial kingdoms would have to be lumped together. Both of them require an acceptance of God, while the Telestial kingdom would be the place for those who reject God.

Hence, based on the mainstream Christian model, God dwells in Heaven is true in our system as well as yours.

Phoebe Ann said:
Those individuals who don't accept Joseph Smith, and obey all the commandments and ordinances of Mormonism are outside in another kingdom.

This is a twisted version of our beliefs. If The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is wrong, then point out the flaws in our actual beliefs. Not the ones altered by those who oppose us. I believe that God wants us to deal in truth.

BigDaddy4 · Jun 26, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
The second estate (mortality) is a time to be tested. If we pass the test, we won't have another test.

You will recall Abraham’s saying that in the spirit world the Lord promised that “they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; … and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.”

We know that we kept our first estate because we are here in mortality, and by receiving our bodies we have been added upon. We further know that the gospel teaches us how we must keep this, our second estate, in order that in the next life, the third estate, we may “have glory added upon [our] heads for ever and ever.”
We Are Children of God

Ironically, this is a better answer to my question than the LDS provided. Thanks!

He is the way · Jun 26, 2020

BigDaddy4 said:
Ironically, this is a better answer to my question than the LDS provided. Thanks!

Actually her conclusion is wrong. What she quoted does not mean there won't be any more tests. She is jumping to conclusions.

BigDaddy4 · Jun 26, 2020

He is the way said:
Actually her conclusion is wrong. What she quoted does not mean there won't be any more tests. She is jumping to conclusions.

Other than your meaningless opinion on the matter, do you have something official from your church refuting what your church has already said on the topic?

He is the way · Jun 26, 2020

BigDaddy4 said:
Other than your meaningless opinion on the matter, do you have something official from your church refuting what your church has already said on the topic?

Nothing from the LDS Church or doctrine thereof nor does the doctrine refute other possible estates such as the forth estate. There is this:
The Principle of Eternal Lives

Rescued One · Jun 26, 2020

He is the way said:
Nothing from the LDS Church or doctrine thereof nor does the doctrine refute other possible estates such as the forth estate. There is this:
The Principle of Eternal Lives

The Principle of Eternal Lives is not an official site.

Rescued One · Jun 26, 2020

He is the way said:
Actually her conclusion is wrong. What she quoted does not mean there won't be any more tests. She is jumping to conclusions.

So anything can be true even if not mentioned in the all-important plan of salvation.

LDS Did you keep your First Estate?

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