Ammillennial Return of Christ: by Dr. Sam Storms

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I will take your avoidance that you have not researched this subject. I have! The vast number were non-millennialists.

Appeal to authority, mass appeal fallacy. Just because more ppl thing something is true doesn't mean it is.

When the 2nd coming happens, satan is cast into the lof at that time

Actually no. Scripture says Only the beast and false prophet are cast into the LoF.
 
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BABerean2

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When a respected dispensational believer, especially one with creds from Dallas Theological, leaves the dispensational theology, amillenialists and covenant theology folks just go gaga! NOt that his mind change is true! But it does make great press and pretends to buttress there allegorical view of eschatology.

Dispensational hermeneutics is fallible (just like an allegorical hermeneutic) but is far better to correctly understand SCripture! Especially the end times and Gods fulfilling His promises to Israel.

The chief error of modern Dispensational Theology is the claim that God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary.

This claim is found written in black and white in the presentation below, from the document which started the modern doctrine.


Genesis of Dispensational Theology

.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Appeal to authority, mass appeal fallacy. Just because more ppl thing something is true doesn't mean it is.

I totally agree. The only time I employ such an argument is to refute the lie that Premils keep throwing out that the ECfs were all Premil up until Augustine. But I totally agree with your sentiments. If you look back you will see that it was in response to that that I presented my comments. But the Word of God is enough!

I challenged it also because I know they have likely never researched it for themselves. That is borne out again on this thread. They are just winging it!
 
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5thKingdom

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There is no proof that that is also when satan is loosed. Your argument is based on something not even proven. If it could be undeniably proved that satan emerges from the pit when the locusts do, then of course one would have to conclude Amil rather than Premil in that case.

--------

(1) First, the Great Tribulation or the Revelation Beast and the end
of the world is shown to be THREE (3) Woes or the Fifth Trumpet,
Sixth Trumpet and Seventh Trumpet


Rev 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the
midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to
the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of
the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound
!


(2) Second, knowing the Great Tribulation or Revelation Beast
and end of the world consists of 3 Woes or the Fifth, Sixth and
Seventh Trumpet... we can clearly understand the FIRST WOE
(the Fifth Trumpet) is the START of the Great Tribulation or
Revelation Beast.

Just as we can know the Seventh Trumpet (eternal 3rd Woe)
is the END of the history of man and the BEGINNING of the
Eternal Kingdom.


Rev 11:14-15
The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the
kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign
for ever and ever.


(3) Knowing the FIRST WOE (Fifth Trumpet) is the BEGINNING
of the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast we can see that
Satan being "loosened" from the Bottomless Pit marks
the START of the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast


Rev 9:1
And the fifth angel sounded, [this is the FIRST WOE] and I saw
a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the
key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and
there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and
unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of
the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those
men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.


(4) Knowing that Satan is "loosened" at the FIRST WOE or the
Fifth Trumpet... then we know he was "bound" at some time
BEFORE the start of the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast.

Satan was "bound" at the Cross.

Now some people say "Satan could not be "bound" at the Cross
because he went forth like a lion seeking to devour people
DURING the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"

But that argument only reveals a lack of understanding about
what it meant to be "bound". It does not mean that Satan is
"bound" with physical chains... the "Bottomless Pit" is really
a CONDITION and not a physical location on earth. DUH!

Saying that Satan is "bound" means that Jesus was given
ALL AUTHORITY to "seek and save" all of His "lost sheep" and
Satan could not prevent the Body of Christ being completed
during the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven".


Mat 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the
name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have
commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway,
even unto the end of the world. Amen.


BOTTOM LINE:
The Great Tribulation STARTS at the First Woe/Fifth Trumpet
and Satan is "loosened" at the same First Woe/Fifth Trumpet.

The Chronology of the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast
is established in the last three "WOES" and during the
Fifth, Sixth, and Seventh Trumpets.

Since Satan is "loosened" at the FIRST WOE [Rev 9:1]
then we can know he was "bound" at the Cross.


/
 
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TribulationSigns

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BOTTOM LINE:
The Great Tribulation STARTS at the First Woe/Fifth Trumpet
and Satan is "loosened" at the same First Woe/Fifth Trumpet.

The Chronology of the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast
is established in the last three "WOES" and during the
Fifth, Sixth, and Seventh Trumpets.

Since Satan is "loosened" at the FIRST WOE [Rev 9:1]
then we can know he was "bound" at the Cross.

Good. Pretty much. :)
 
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Christian Gedge

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Well progressive dispensationalism is just a tweaking of historical dispensationalism. They still hold to the standard dispensation eschatiology held by Pentecost, Walvoord, Ryrie, and Fruchtenbaum! Most of it is more semantics than real substance.
Tell that to Thomas Ice.
 
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DavidPT

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--------

(1) First, the Great Tribulation or the Revelation Beast and the end
of the world is shown to be THREE (3) Woes or the Fifth Trumpet,
Sixth Trumpet and Seventh Trumpet


Rev 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the
midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to
the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of
the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound
!


(2) Second, knowing the Great Tribulation or Revelation Beast
and end of the world consists of 3 Woes or the Fifth, Sixth and
Seventh Trumpet... we can clearly understand the FIRST WOE
(the Fifth Trumpet) is the START of the Great Tribulation or
Revelation Beast.

Just as we can know the Seventh Trumpet (eternal 3rd Woe)
is the END of the history of man and the BEGINNING of the
Eternal Kingdom.


Rev 11:14-15
The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the
kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign
for ever and ever.


(3) Knowing the FIRST WOE (Fifth Trumpet) is the BEGINNING
of the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast we can see that
Satan being "loosened" from the Bottomless Pit marks
the START of the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast


Rev 9:1
And the fifth angel sounded, [this is the FIRST WOE] and I saw
a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the
key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and
there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and
unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of
the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those
men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.


(4) Knowing that Satan is "loosened" at the FIRST WOE or the
Fifth Trumpet... then we know he was "bound" at some time
BEFORE the start of the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast.

Satan was "bound" at the Cross.

Now some people say "Satan could not be "bound" at the Cross
because he went forth like a lion seeking to devour people
DURING the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"

But that argument only reveals a lack of understanding about
what it meant to be "bound". It does not mean that Satan is
"bound" with physical chains... the "Bottomless Pit" is really
a CONDITION and not a physical location on earth. DUH!

Saying that Satan is "bound" means that Jesus was given
ALL AUTHORITY to "seek and save" all of His "lost sheep" and
Satan could not prevent the Body of Christ being completed
during the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven".


Mat 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the
name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have
commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway,
even unto the end of the world. Amen.


BOTTOM LINE:
The Great Tribulation STARTS at the First Woe/Fifth Trumpet
and Satan is "loosened" at the same First Woe/Fifth Trumpet.

The Chronology of the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast
is established in the last three "WOES" and during the
Fifth, Sixth, and Seventh Trumpets.

Since Satan is "loosened" at the FIRST WOE [Rev 9:1]
then we can know he was "bound" at the Cross.


/


While I do disagree with some of your post, some of I tend to think you might be correct about, or least pretty close. The following are some of my reasons why satan is not being loosed from the pit in Revelation 9, mainly because he is not even in the pit at the time to begin with.


Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Revelation 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


What is one thing all of these have in common? They all involve woes. What seems more likely to me is this.

And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!----Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time---the beginning of the first woe---And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.


Therefore, Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time---seems to start with this---and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit---therefore making this fallen star likely to be satan. Assuming this is correct, this alone proves satan is not coming out of the pit in Revelation 9, as if he had been locked inside as well, if he is instead the one opening it.


Something else in common among the verses above are this----Both Revelation 8:13 and Revelation 12:12 pronounce woes on the inhabiters of the earth, and that in the latter it starts with satan being cast to the earth, and in Revelation 9 the first woe begins with a falling star falling to earth and then opening the pit. Falling stars are usually not depicting something good, so the chance of this falling star being a good angel is highly unlikely, therefore satan looks like he fits Revelation 9:1 the best.


And here's the interesting twist. The very same bottomless pit satan is given the key to, assuming the falling star is meaning him, he ends up locked up in this same pit with this same key. But this time it's the exact opposite than in Revelation 9. In Revelation 9 a bad angel is unlocking the pit to let things out, and that since there is no indication in that chapter that the pit gets shut and locked again, this means it's likely already still open when the good angel comes down from heaven in Revelation 20:1 already possessing the key. But this time not to open it up and let things out, but to cast something in, then lock the pit back up again.


Something else we need to keep in mind, even if the falling star in Revelation 9:1 isn't satan, Revelation 12:12 records him being cast out of heaven to the earth, and not cast out of the bottomless pit to the earth, nor cast out of heaven then cast into the bottomless pit. Either way you look at it, Revelation 9:1 together with Revelation 12:12 shows that there is no connection with satan being in the pit at the time, or about to be in the pit at the time.
 
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sovereigngrace

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While I do disagree with some of your post, some of I tend to think you might be correct about, or least pretty close. The following are some of my reasons why satan is not being loosed from the pit in Revelation 9, mainly because he is not even in the pit at the time to begin with.


Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Revelation 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


What is one thing all of these have in common? They all involve woes. What seems more likely to me is this.

And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!----Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time---the beginning of the first woe---And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.


Therefore, Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time---seems to start with this---and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit---therefore making this fallen star likely to be satan. Assuming this is correct, this alone proves satan is not coming out of the pit in Revelation 9, as if he had been locked inside as well, if he is instead the one opening it.


Something else in common among the verses above are this----Both Revelation 8:13 and Revelation 12:12 pronounce woes on the inhabiters of the earth, and that in the latter it starts with satan being cast to the earth, and in Revelation 9 the first woe begins with a falling star falling to earth and then opening the pit. Falling stars are usually not depicting something good, so the chance of this falling star being a good angel is highly unlikely, therefore satan looks like he fits Revelation 9:1 the best.


And here's the interesting twist. The very same bottomless pit satan is given the key to, assuming the falling star is meaning him, he ends up locked up in this same pit with this same key. But this time it's the exact opposite than in Revelation 9. In Revelation 9 a bad angel is unlocking the pit to let things out, and that since there is no indication in that chapter that the pit gets shut and locked again, this means it's likely already still open when the good angel comes down from heaven in Revelation 20:1 already possessing the key. But this time not to open it up and let things out, but to cast something in, then lock the pit back up again.


Something else we need to keep in mind, even if the falling star in Revelation 9:1 isn't satan, Revelation 12:12 records him being cast out of heaven to the earth, and not cast out of the bottomless pit to the earth, nor cast out of heaven then cast into the bottomless pit. Either way you look at it, Revelation 9:1 together with Revelation 12:12 shows that there is no connection with satan being in the pit at the time, or about to be in the pit at the time.

I do not agree. Revelation 9:1-5 gives us an insight into the bottomless pit prior to the return of the Lord (the last trumpet). In fact, the scene appears at the time of the 5th trumpet (obviously before the last trump): “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit [Gr. abussos]. And he opened the bottomless pit [Gr. abussos]; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.”

Here we have the opening of the abyss with a key before the second coming. Obviously, the place was locked up previously so that those inside couldn’t leave. Now please consider: this is evidence that Satan and his demons are in the pit before the second coming, but are released for a season at the end to do their damage.

Before proceeding any further, we should carefully note a few things here which most commentators seem to overlook. Firstly, this “star” descended “from heaven unto the earth.” Secondly, having settled on “the earth” the “star” gained direct rule and authority over the abyss. Regardless of one’s theological position, we must accept that the abyss (however we understand it) is located on earth.

Revelation 9:11 gives us more detail confirming that we are looking at the restrained kingdom of darkness: “had a king over them, which is the angel of the abyss [Gr. abussos], whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”

In piecing the apocalyptic jigsaw together we find that this dark spiritual dungeon currently has a king over it. This gives us insight into the fact that the abyss must be speaking of a kingdom. Moreover, that kingdom is imprisoned in its own darkness. The fact that there is a king currently ruling tells us that the abyss must contain a kingdom. The word kingdom means 'king with a domain'. Its meaning includes the territory and the people over whom the King rules and exercises sovereign authority. The term also includes the legislation and laws that administrate that kingdom. The word employed in the New Testament for 'kingdom' is the Greek word basileia denoting 'sovereignty, royal power, kingship and dominion'. A kingdom must therefore have (1) a king - a head, (2) a domain to rule over - subjects and territory, (3) a structure of administration - ethics, rules and laws which govern it.

We all know, there are only two spiritual realms in conflict on this earth - the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. Whilst these two kingdoms manifest through physical individuals they are invisible empires. The kingdom being described which "the destroyer" rules over is assuredly not the kingdom of God. The elect angels are never located in the abyss but rather in heavenly splendor. Therefore, we must be speaking of the dark restrained invisible spiritual realm of the devil's kingdom.

Who is this king (or destroyer) that currently reigns over "the bottomless pit" or abyss? We know from the description given of this king that we are looking at an angel. In fact, the king is called: "the angel of the abyss." There is no doubt that Abaddon / Apollyon are referring to someone within the demonic realm. This begs an instant question, who is the king that rules over that dark realm?

Strong's Concordance gives us help, describing Apollyon (623) as "a destroyer (i.e. Satan)." Moreover, when we examine the root Greek word apollumi (Strong's 622) we find it means "to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively." The word is variously translated destroy, die, lose, mar, perish in the King James Version. There seems little doubt that Apollyon is referring to the devil. Time after time in Scripture we see Satan being described in such a destructive way. The name and characteristics of this being seem to identify him with that great enemy of the Church - the devil.

Revelation 9:1-3 shows the abyss occupied now by Satan and his minions prior to the last trumpet. It also shows Satan (Abaddon/Apollyon) there as well. Remember Abaddon/Apollyon is a king. This king is obviously head over a kingdom (that is what king's rule over) so what kingdom or domain and subjects and territory does he rule over? This is no natural king but a spiritual king. If it is a spiritual king it must either be Christ or Satan - the only two rulers over the two conflicting spiritual kingdoms. We know that Christ is not on earth since His ascent and definitely not in the abyss. There can surely be no doubt that this is Satan.

We cannot help but conclude, the angel (or star) that descends in Revelation 9:1-3 is given immediate authority over Satan (Abaddon / Apollyon) and his angels (symbolic represented in this passage as locust/scorpion-type creatures), who in turn are presently in the abyss realm. The one major difficulty for Premils here is that this passage expressly locates Satan and his minions in the abyss prior to the coming of the Lord, as Amillennialism believes and not after that as Premillennialism mistakenly argues.

This reading also significantly shows that Satan is currently subject to the authority of another angel (star). This angel obviously is not a fellow fallen angel, as Satan is undisputed king of that realm; it must therefore be an angel from the kingdom of God. Even though Satan is presently king over the abyss, he is currently restrained in that condition. Satan is restricted to the boundaries of the abyss - which is the spiritual abode of the kingdom of darkness. There is another angel that holds the key over

This reading also significantly shows that Satan is currently subject to the authority of another angel (star). This angel obviously is not a fellow fallen angel, as Satan is undisputed king of that realm; it must therefore be an angel from the kingdom of God. Even though Satan is presently king over the abyss, he is currently restrained in that condition. Satan is restricted to the boundaries of the abyss - which is the spiritual abode of the kingdom of darkness. There is another angel that holds the key over

Notwithstanding, this kingdom of demons that is ruled by Satan is released from the bottomless pit prior to the end in order to wreak havoc. There can be no other wicked king reigning over this kingdom than Satan. To suggest otherwise is to contradict much Scripture that shows Lucifer as the leader of the wicked band.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Luk 13:32
And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold,
I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow,
and the third day I shall be perfected.

--------

I fail to see how Luke 13:32 shows the 1000 year period
when Satan is "bound" or some "reward" for Jesus at
His Return.

Secondly, the Amillennial position was the position of the
earliest disciples [2 Thess 2] as all the early Saints thought
Christ's Return was imminent. It was also the position
of the Catholic church since around 400AD and it was the
position of most of the Protestant Reformers...

So, for you to say it's a "direct contradiction" only shows
(a) that you take the 1000 years to be literal instead of
spiritual and (b) you do not believe the destruction of the
fourth Beast/Kingdom is followed by the Eternal Kingdom
as is "plainly stated" in Daniel 7 (and DOZENS of other
passages) and (c) you show complete disrespect for the
doctrines of the church for the first 1800 years while
Pentecostalism did not even begin until the 1900's.

The REASON Saints preached the AMillennial position
for so long is (a) they understood Satan was "bound"
at the Cross and (b) they understood the 1000 yrs was
not a literal time and (c) they understood the 1000 yrs
was the church age and (d) they understood that the
ETERNAL Kingdom begins when the Fourth Beast
(aka Revelation Beast) is destroyed.

This does not even mention the FACT that Satan is
"loosened" at the START of the Great Tribulation or
Revelation Beast or Fourth Kingdom/Beast... since
Satan is "loosened" at the beginning of the 1st Woe
or the Fifth Trumpet or the FIRST Revelation Beast
he could not be "bound" AFTER the Revelation Beast.
This is not that hard.


Question:
If Satan is "loosened" at the START of the Revelation Beast
[Rev 9:1] then HOW can he be "bound" when Christ Returns?
at the END of the Beast? Il await your answer on this question.


/
Hi the hope of the ages is that like Isaiah said
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. The before and after picture when the LORD takes the throne and binds Satan is much different than what we have experienced the last 2000 years. The kingdom of heaven is being saved and as Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness we see no one was ever saved apart from faith or redeemed by any other means than the blood of Jesus . In rev 5 we see the souls in heaven cry out to the lamb who was slain that He was worthy to take the scrolls and open the seals for He had redeemed them from every tribe tongue kindred and nation by His blood and they would reign with him upon the earth. This fits with so many themes of the before and after picture that is clearly presented in the body of scripture. The nations will indeed beat the swords into plowshare and spears into pruning hooks and learn war no more. You see how are spears and swords going to make it into the new heaven? This is an earthly thing of war and as Ezekiel 47 notes the 12 tribes of Israel receive specific land in Canaan after the LORD is king. The boundaries include the sea which in the new creation there is no more sea. The millennium is literal and future and coming soon.
 
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Bobber

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The greatest way of have trouble with the Ammillennial position is the suggestion that Satan is bound right now. I don't see that in the writings of Jesus nor in the writings of Paul or Peter. Ephesians says we wrestle not against flesh and blood......Ephes 6:10. That of course was written years after Jesus ascended to the Father. YES Satan is defeated for us In Christ BUT we must enforce that victory with the word of God. Because we have to do that I can't see Satan is bound like ammillienialists seem to claim. And then there's Peter who stated the devil goes about seeking whom he may destroy? 1 Peter 5:8 How can he do that if he's bound?
 
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DavidPT

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Who is this king (or destroyer) that currently reigns over "the bottomless pit" or abyss? We know from the description given of this king that we are looking at an angel. In fact, the king is called: "the angel of the abyss." There is no doubt that Abaddon / Apollyon are referring to someone within the demonic realm. This begs an instant question, who is the king that rules over that dark realm?

Strong's Concordance gives us help, describing Apollyon (623) as "a destroyer (i.e. Satan)." Moreover, when we examine the root Greek word apollumi (Strong's 622) we find it means "to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively." The word is variously translated destroy, die, lose, mar, perish in the King James Version. There seems little doubt that Apollyon is referring to the devil. Time after time in Scripture we see Satan being described in such a destructive way. The name and characteristics of this being seem to identify him with that great enemy of the Church - the devil.

Revelation 9:1-3 shows the abyss occupied now by Satan and his minions prior to the last trumpet. It also shows Satan (Abaddon/Apollyon) there as well. Remember Abaddon/Apollyon is a king. This king is obviously head over a kingdom (that is what king's rule over) so what kingdom or domain and subjects and territory does he rule over? This is no natural king but a spiritual king. If it is a spiritual king it must either be Christ or Satan - the only two rulers over the two conflicting spiritual kingdoms. We know that Christ is not on earth since His ascent and definitely not in the abyss. There can surely be no doubt that this is Satan.


Even if the angel of the pit is meaning satan, maybe it is, maybe it isn't, the text in Revelation 9 doesn't tell us one way or the other as to whether or not he is also in the pit when it is opened. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. That makes it even odds. For example, Trump is President of the USA. And when he is overseas he is still the President of the USA, yet he is not still in the USA at the time. In the same way the angel of the pit can still be the angel of the pit without also being locked up in it at the time, if he is instead somewhere else at the time.



Why do Amils insist Amil still works and is the correct position, even when others show time and time again that Amil can't logically fit the chronology of events? If Amil can work like Amils insist, then what Amil proposes should fit the chronology of events, not not fit them instead. The latter is called a contradiction of the texts involved.

The woe in Revelation 12:12 has to fit one of the 3 woes involving the last 3 trumpets. If it doesn't fit the first woe, maybe it fits the 2nd woe, then. I'm not even going to suggest it fits the 3rd woe since that woe is the 7th trumpet. So that means the woe in Revelation 12:12 either fits the first woe, the 5th trumpet events, or fits the 2nd woe, the 6th trumpet events.

Regardless which it might be, before this woe in Revelation 12:12 satan still had access to heaven, thus couldn't possibly be in the pit prior to this first woe which involves him being cast out of heaven unto the earth, having great wrath because he knows he has but a short time. And a thousand years are supposed to fit exactly where again?

I fully realize you don't take the thousand years to be a literal thousand years. Yet you take it to be symbolizing a period of time where the exact amount of years are unknown. So maybe I should rephrase my question. And a period of time when satan is in the pit where the exact amount of years are unknown are supposed to fit exactly where again?
 
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5thKingdom

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Something else we need to keep in mind, even if the falling star in Revelation 9:1 isn't satan, Revelation 12:12 records him being cast out of heaven to the earth, and not cast out of the bottomless pit to the earth, nor cast out of heaven then cast into the bottomless pit. Either way you look at it, Revelation 9:1 together with Revelation 12:12 shows that there is no connection with satan being in the pit at the time, or about to be in the pit at the time.



While I do disagree with some of your post, some of I tend to think you might be correct about, or least pretty close. The following are some of my reasons why satan is not being loosed from the pit in Revelation 9, mainly because he is not even in the pit at the time to begin with.


I welcome the review.
If Satan was NOT "bound" at the Cross...
when was he "bound"?

BTW... I am not "pretty close"... I am spot on.
Because this is information "unsealed" to the Last Saints.


You said:
Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!



I actually USED that passage in my explanation.
Here is what I said:


(1) First, the Great Tribulation or the Revelation Beast and the end
of the world is shown to be THREE (3) Woes or the Fifth Trumpet,
Sixth Trumpet and Seventh Trumpet


Rev 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the
midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to
the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of
the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound
!



You said:
Revelation 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.



Yes... the "wise virgins" of the Great Tribulation/Revelation
were Judged for "agreeing to give their Kingdom to the Beast"
[Rev 17:1-13,17] during the FIRST WOE (Fifth Trumpet)
You see they were (spiritually) "killed" at the END of the
FIRST WOE and the beginning of the SECOND WOE


Rev 9:12-15
One woe is past; and, behold,
there come two woes more hereafter.
And the sixth angel sounded
, [start of the Second Woe]
and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar
which is before God, Saying to the sixth angel which had
the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the
great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed,
which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a
month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men
.


You said:
Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.



The Second Woe was the END of the Great Tribulation/
Revelation Beast. The "Final Harvest" of Saints is shown
BEFORE the Second Beast is destroyed. The SECOND WOE
(Sixth Trumpet) STARTS here:


Rev 9:13-15
And the sixth angel sounded, [that is the Second Woe]
and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar
which is before God, Saying to the sixth angel which had
the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the
great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed,
which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a
month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.



The 1/3 of men represents the Last Saints ("wise virgins")
just as the 3 horns being overcome by the "Little Horn"
represent the Last Saints or "wise virgins" [Dan 7]


BTW: This was the FULFILLMENT of Rev 6:9-11 where
the SOULS of the martyred saints are told to wait for
a "Little Season" (Satan's Little Season) so that all of
their brother Saints (in the Revelation Beast) are "killed"



Rev 11:14-15
The second woe is past;
and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great
voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are
become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ;
and he shall reign for ever and ever
.


You said:
Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.



Yes... again, in addition to Rev 9:1, we see that Satan
is "loosened" during the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast.
Notice he has a "short time"... that is Satan's "Little Season"
Moreover... look at WHO Satan is attacking: (the Last Saints)


Rev 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to
make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of
Jesus Christ
.


I hope you do not think that Revelation is shown
in a chronological order. We see Satan "loosened"
in Rev 9 and we see a different perspective of the
SAME EVENT in Rev 12.


You said:
What is one thing all of these have in common? They all involve woes. What seems more likely to me is this.



Again, this was the STARTING POINT of my explanation:
I will re-post what I said:


(1) First, the Great Tribulation or the Revelation Beast and the end
of the world is shown to be THREE (3) Woes or the Fifth Trumpet,
Sixth Trumpet and Seventh Trumpet


Rev 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the
midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to
the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of
the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound
!



You said:
And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!----Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time---the beginning of the first woe---And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.



I really do not know what your point is above or how
I should respond because this is all material we just
covered above. Satan being "loosened" is shown
from several different perspectives and the Book
of Revelation is NOT written in chronological order.


You said:
Therefore, Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time---seems to start with this---and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit---therefore making this fallen star likely to be satan. Assuming this is correct, this alone proves satan is not coming out of the pit in Revelation 9, as if he had been locked inside as well, if he is instead the one opening it.



The falling star is NOT Satan...
Satan (and his demons) are released from the Pit
by the falling star. Again, remember, the FIRST WOE
[Rev 9] is the START of the Great Tribulation/Revelation
Beast. Besides, the notion that Satan is releasing demons
from the Pit while he is OUTSIDE of the Pit.. is pure fantasy.


Rev 9:1-3
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall
from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given
the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the
bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit,
as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air
were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

And there came out of the smoke locusts upon
the earth: and unto them was given power,
as the scorpions of the earth have power.



BTW: Locusts represent false prophets and,
in this case it is showing the false prophecy of the
FIRST Revelation Beast.


You said:
Something else in common among the verses above are this----Both Revelation 8:13 and Revelation 12:12 pronounce woes on the inhabiters of the earth, and that in the latter it starts with satan being cast to the earth, and in Revelation 9 the first woe begins with a falling star falling to earth and then opening the pit. Falling stars are usually not depicting something good, so the chance of this falling star being a good angel is highly unlikely, therefore satan looks like he fits Revelation 9:1 the best.


With all due respect... that is nonsensical and contrary
to Scripture [Rev 12]. Please tell me WHERE in the bible
do you find someone or something "bound" in the
Bottomless Pit BESIDES SATAN?


Rev 9:1 is the SAME EVENT as Rev 12 when Satan
is "loosened" to ATTACK those who "keep the commandments"
This is not difficult... it is simply two different perspectives
of the SAME EVENT.


You said:
And here's the interesting twist. The very same bottomless pit satan is given the key to, assuming the falling star is meaning him, he ends up locked up in this same pit with this same key. But this time it's the exact opposite than in Revelation 9. In Revelation 9 a bad angel is unlocking the pit to let things out, and that since there is no indication in that chapter that the pit gets shut and locked again, this means it's likely already still open when the good angel comes down from heaven in Revelation 20:1 already possessing the key. But this time not to open it up and let things out, but to cast something in, then lock the pit back up again.



Now you have entered the Twilight Zone with imaginations
about "good angels" and "bad angels" opening and closing
the Pit. Why is it so HARD for you to understand that:
(1) Revelation is NOT written in chronological order and
(2) The ONLY person/thing locked in the pit is Satan and
(3) Revelation 20 is showing a time BEFORE the start
of the Revelation Beast (as Satan is "loosened")...
why is it so hard to understand that Satan was BOUND
at the CROSS so that the Great Commission could occur?


Please tell me WHERE in the Bible does it teach that Satan
"loosens" someone or something from the Bottomless Pit.
There is NO BIBLICAL REASON for ever considering such
an absurd doctrine... not unless you have SCRIPTURE that
talks about Satan "loosening" something from the Pit.



Again, a re-post of what I already revealed"


Mat 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the
name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have
commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway,
even unto the end of the world. Amen.



(4) Knowing that Satan is "loosened" at the FIRST WOE or the
Fifth Trumpet... then we know he was "bound" at some time
BEFORE the start of the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast.

Satan was "bound" at the Cross.

Now some people say "Satan could not be "bound" at the Cross
because he went forth like a lion seeking to devour people
DURING the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"

But that argument only reveals a lack of understanding about
what it meant to be "bound". It does not mean that Satan is
"bound" with physical chains... the "Bottomless Pit" is really
a CONDITION and not a physical location on earth. DUH!

Saying that Satan is "bound" means that Jesus was given
ALL AUTHORITY to "seek and save" all of His "lost sheep" and
Satan could not prevent the Body of Christ being completed
during the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven".


You said:
Something else we need to keep in mind, even if the falling star in Revelation 9:1 isn't satan, Revelation 12:12 records him being cast out of heaven to the earth, and not cast out of the bottomless pit to the earth, nor cast out of heaven then cast into the bottomless pit. Either way you look at it, Revelation 9:1 together with Revelation 12:12 shows that there is no connection with satan being in the pit at the time, or about to be in the pit at the time


Do you REALLY think there is a PHYSICAL key
to the Bottomless Pit?

Do you REALLY think Satan is bound by PHYSICAL chains?

Do you REALLY think the Bottomless Pit is a GEOGRAPHIC
AREA
on earth?... or can you "see" that it is
a CONDITION that binds Satan from
stopping the Great Commission?

You will need to THINK a little harder because
(1) there is no PHYSICAL key
(2) There are no PHYSICAL chains
(3) The Bottomless pit is NOT under Antarctica
(4) The Pit is a CONDITION to not have AUTHORITY
during the Great Commission of the Church Age
(again showing Satan was BOUND at the Cross)


Mat 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the
name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have
commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway,
even unto the end of the world. Amen.


I appreciate your comments.


/
 
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5thKingdom

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The greatest way of have trouble with the Ammillennial position is the suggestion that Satan is bound right now. I don't see that in the writings of Jesus nor in the writings of Paul or Peter. Ephesians says we wrestle not against flesh and blood......Ephes 6:10. That of course was written years after Jesus ascended to the Father. YES Satan is defeated for us In Christ BUT we must enforce that victory with the word of God. Because we have to do that I can't see Satan is bound like ammillienialists seem to claim. And then there's Peter who stated the devil goes about seeking whom he may destroy? 1 Peter 5:8 How can he do that if he's bound?


Do you REALLY think that Satan is bound
with PHYSICAL chains?

Do your REALLY think there is a PHYSICAL key
to the Bottomless Pit?

Do you REALLY think the Bottomless Pit
is a GEOGRAPHIC AREA on earth?
Maybe under Antarctica?

The Pit is a CONDITION to not have AUTHORITY
during the Great Commission of the Church Age
(again showing Satan was BOUND at the Cross)


Mat 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the
name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have
commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway,
even unto the end of the world. Amen.


/
 
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sovereigngrace

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The greatest way of have trouble with the Ammillennial position is the suggestion that Satan is bound right now. I don't see that in the writings of Jesus nor in the writings of Paul or Peter. Ephesians says we wrestle not against flesh and blood......Ephes 6:10. That of course was written years after Jesus ascended to the Father. YES Satan is defeated for us In Christ BUT we must enforce that victory with the word of God. Because we have to do that I can't see Satan is bound like ammillienialists seem to claim. And then there's Peter who stated the devil goes about seeking whom he may destroy? 1 Peter 5:8 How can he do that if he's bound?

Obviously you have not taken the time to study this matter in any depth. Premil is always exalting the influence of Satan. It portrays a small impotent Jesus, a powerless Church and a big devil. Amil and Postmil on the other hand have a big Jesus, a powerful Church and a small devil. There is multiple Scripture that shows the redeemed have power over Satan in this new covenant period. There is not one that says he has power over us. As the light is shone through the great commission, Satan is dethroned in the lives of humans and blindfolds are removed. Christ gave the Church power over Satan and his minions. They have authority to bind Satan and spoil his goods. We are the Lord's voice, hands and feet on this earth to enforce His will!

Matthew 12:22-29 records, Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (deo) the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

Jesus describes Satan here as the “strong man.” He depicts Himself as the One who enters the house the strong man and plunders his goods. But before this happens he must first be incapacitated.

The Lord identifies the casting out of devils, and the resulting liberating of souls, with the actual binding of the strong man. He in turn presents this as proof that Satan is curbed through the presence and victorious function of the kingdom of God. Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvelously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind (deo) the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

This familiar discourse by our Lord came as a response to the crude scoffs of the religious Scribes (during His earthly ministry) dismissing Christ’s deliverance ministry as a work of Satan. Christ’s reply confirmed that the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago and is not simply a future hope that will occur after the Lord’s return. He said: “No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.” Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was describing the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Here, Christ highlights the sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.

Hebrews 2:14-15 says of Christ’s great atoning death, “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy (katargeo) him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.”

The Greek word katargeo used here to describe the fate that befell Satan. The word means to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative. It means to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency. It means to deprive of force, influence and power. It means to cause to cease, to put an end to, to do away with, to annul and to abolish.

It is interpreted in different ways in the New Testament such as ‘bring to nought’, ‘none effect’, and ‘abolish’. Satan certainly sustained a blow that impaired or restricted his movement. Undoubtedly, Satan's power to hold the nations in captivity was assaulted so that Christ could set the prisoner free throughout the nations. The Gentiles, who had been blinded for 4,000 years by the devil, would now see. The Gentiles that were nearly all pagan before the cross have been availed the wonderful opportunity to come to salvation through the victory of the cross and the consequential defeat of Satan. Whilst the majority are not saved, that doesn’t stop the nations been privileged with the truth.

The Gentiles can no longer claim ignorance. Notwithstanding, the presence of the Gospel and the acceptance of the Gospel are two completely different things. The presence of the Gospel never resulted in wholesale salvation to any nation, that is demonstrated even in the Old Testament where most Israelis rejected God’s offer of salvation. There was always only ever been a remnant amongst those who were privileged to hear the Gospel.

I have shown you many times but you choose to fight the Scriptures. Christ won the right to rule over His enemies at the right hand of majesty through His sinless life, His atoning death and His victorious resurrection. You reject this. You oppose this. You render the cross meaningless, Christ powerless and His reign fictional. You present a BIG devil and a small god.

Time and time again Scripture identifies Christ’s earthly ministry, and especially His death, burial and resurrection, as the time when the devil was spiritually restricted (or bound) from operating in his former manner. I John 3:8 declares, For this purpose the son of God was manifested, that he might destroy (or luo or undo) the works of the devil.”

The devil sustained a significant spiritual head-blow at Calvary (as predicted in Genesis 3), which has restricted his wide area of influence in this world. Countless multitudes have been rescued from the grip of Satan. Christ came with that expressed assignment to destroy the devil by bruising and crushing the serpent's head. Before the Cross he deluded all the nations of the world apart from the highly favored nation of natural Israel. Tiny Israel was the epicenter of God’s plan of salvation before the cross, although even choice Israel was in a state of apostasy when Christ arrived. This is demonstrated by the fact there were only two godly believers waiting for Him when He first appeared in the temple – Simeon and Anna.

Colossians 2:13-15 tells us: “And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh (speaking about the Gentiles), hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

The victory of the cross was the key to spoiling Satan's power and kingdom. It stripped him of his enormous unchallenged global influence, caused him to be dethroned in untold millions of heathen lives and ensured he was curtailed in countless Gentile villages, towns and cities throughout the world through the faithful preaching of the Word of God.

2 Peter 2:4, God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

Jude supports the view of a current binding of the whole kingdom of darkness, in v 6, when he says, the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

It would seem that anyone that had no theological axe to grind would easily see an allusion to the whole demonic realm in these descriptions. Most balanced theologians would accept that there are only two angelic groupings – the elect angels and the demonic angels. The righteous angels are located within the kingdom of God and the wicked angels within the kingdom of darkness. These are that are ruled by two opposing kings.

It is right for us to ask our premillennial brethren: “who are these fallen angels that do not come within the definition scope of “the angels which kept not their first estate" (Jude 6) and "the angels that sinned" (2 Peter 2:4)?

Revelation 9:1-5 gives us an insight into the bottomless pit prior to the return of the Lord (the last trumpet). In fact the scene appears at the time of the 5th trumpet (obviously before the last trump): “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.”

Here we have the opening of the abyss with a key before the second coming. Obviously, the place was locked up previously so that those inside couldn’t leave. Now please consider: this is evidence that demons are in the pit before the second coming, but are released for a season at the end to do their damage.

Revelation 9:10-11 significantly adds: “they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”

Here we have a king reigning over them called “Abaddon” and “Apollyon.” Here is proof and corroboration that Satan is located in the abyss before the second coming not after it as Premils claim.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Even if the angel of the pit is meaning satan, maybe it is, maybe it isn't, the text in Revelation 9 doesn't tell us one way or the other as to whether or not he is also in the pit when it is opened. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. That makes it even odds. For example, Trump is President of the USA. And when he is overseas he is still the President of the USA, yet he is not still in the USA at the time. In the same way the angel of the pit can still be the angel of the pit without also being locked up in it at the time, if he is instead somewhere else at the time.



Why do Amils insist Amil still works and is the correct position, even when others show time and time again that Amil can't logically fit the chronology of events? If Amil can work like Amils insist, then what Amil proposes should fit the chronology of events, not not fit them instead. The latter is called a contradiction of the texts involved.

The woe in Revelation 12:12 has to fit one of the 3 woes involving the last 3 trumpets. If it doesn't fit the first woe, maybe it fits the 2nd woe, then. I'm not even going to suggest it fits the 3rd woe since that woe is the 7th trumpet. So that means the woe in Revelation 12:12 either fits the first woe, the 5th trumpet events, or fits the 2nd woe, the 6th trumpet events.

Regardless which it might be, before this woe in Revelation 12:12 satan still had access to heaven, thus couldn't possibly be in the pit prior to this first woe which involves him being cast out of heaven unto the earth, having great wrath because he knows he has but a short time. And a thousand years are supposed to fit exactly where again?

I fully realize you don't take the thousand years to be a literal thousand years. Yet you take it to be symbolizing a period of time where the exact amount of years are unknown. So maybe I should rephrase my question. And a period of time when satan is in the pit where the exact amount of years are unknown are supposed to fit exactly where again?

It is actually the impotence of the Premil chronology along with another thousand reasons (excuse the pun) is why we should all reject Premil as an extra-biblical invention.
 
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Bobber

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Do you REALLY think that Satan is bound
with PHYSICAL chains?

Do your REALLY think there is a PHYSICAL key
to the Bottomless Pit?

Do you REALLY think the Bottomless Pit
is a GEOGRAPHIC AREA on earth?
Maybe under Antarctica?

The Pit is a CONDITION to not have AUTHORITY
during the Great Commission of the Church Age
(again showing Satan was BOUND at the Cross)

Nope can't see it in the way you're saying this. I believe of course that Satan was defeated at the cross and by the resurrection of Christ but that victory has to be enforced and established in the lives of each believer and even with things going on in the world. Satan is not bound at present from the affairs of men. We see in Acts 16:16 Satan was stirring up a problem in Paul's ministry and Paul spoke to the spirit in a young lady and cast it out.

I don't think anyone could therefore say the devil is bound, bound means an inability to function and operate in every regular sense of the word. With all due respect I think we have to deny the Bible in suggesting Satan isn't operating and hindering in any way that he can. Aren't we told as well not to give any place to the devil? Ephes 4:27 Why my friend would it matter if he's bound anyway?
 
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BABerean2

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Something else we need to keep in mind, even if the falling star in Revelation 9:1 isn't satan, Revelation 12:12 records him being cast out of heaven to the earth, and not cast out of the bottomless pit to the earth, nor cast out of heaven then cast into the bottomless pit. Either way you look at it, Revelation 9:1 together with Revelation 12:12 shows that there is no connection with satan being in the pit at the time, or about to be in the pit at the time.

Once again, you seem to be claiming the Book of Revelation is in chronological order, when you have already admitted it is not.

Make up your mind.

Anyone who thinks Satan is now in heaven in the presence of God, and Christ, needs to read their Bible again.

This earth is now the prison from which Satan cannot escape.
This planet is like a bottomless pit to an angel who was once in the presence of God's light, because he cannot escape from it.
To Satan, it is like being in a black hole.
Satan and the other angels who followed him are now in chains of "darkness".


2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.



Anyone who claims Satan can be bound with a literal chain needs to read the verses below.

Mar 5:2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
Mar 5:3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
Mar 5:4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.

.
 
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Bobber

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Obviously you have not taken the time to study this matter in any depth. Premil is always exalting the influence of Satan. It portrays a small impotent Jesus, a powerless Church and a big devil. Amil and Postmil on the other hand have a big Jesus, a powerful Church and a small devil.

I really see no justifcation for your saying that.

There is multiple Scripture that shows the redeemed have power over Satan in this new covenant period.

Of course. And I totally believe that. But it's a freedom and victory that's got to go beyond just a legal redemption to a manifested by experience reality in a believers life. Thus Paul stated we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against.....(and I'm sure you know the rest). And even when it comes to worldly culture. Can you really believe the devil is bound out there and is inactive? Again doesn't even Acts 16:16 demonstrate this is not the case?
 
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Blade

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Its great to have so many books. Yet.. I don't follow what some man believes. The great I AM...Yeshua/Jesus.. holy Spirit are real. Is not He teaching you? I read Rev and . ..what I get.. Tribulation.. ends.. Jesus gathers nations.. sheep&goats. And then 1000y.

That is what the Jewish people thought He was going to do the 1st time. That is written but.. they missed the first part of what He would first do. For me.. be so foolish to think my understanding is DUH the real truth. No.. this is what I personally believe. SO MANY leave that part out. Hear to talk to a wall no? :)
 
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Douggg

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