The Lake Of Fire

Major1 · Jun 22, 2020

FineLinen said:
You do Major!

Yours is the god of limited.

The koine is clear, your limited horizon will of course not allow such scope for the God of UN & more.

ta pavnte/ ta panta, “in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.”

I hate to keep telling you this but you seem to have forgotten what you said....
"THERE ARE NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES WHICH SUPPORT THE UNIVERSALISTS THEOLOGY!!!! FINELINEN SAYS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SALVATION FROM ANYONE WHO IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".

Major1 · Jun 22, 2020

FineLinen said:
You do Major!

Yours is the god of limited.

The koine is clear, your limited horizon will of course not allow such scope for the God of UN & more.

ta pavnte/ ta panta, “in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.”

I hate to keep telling you this but you seem to have forgotten what you said....
"THERE ARE NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES WHICH SUPPORT THE UNIVERSALISTS THEOLOGY!!!! FINELINEN SAYS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SALVATION FROM ANYONE WHO IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".

Major1 · Jun 22, 2020

FineLinen said:
You do Major!

Yours is the god of limited.

The koine is clear, your limited horizon will of course not allow such scope for the God of UN & more.

ta pavnte/ ta panta, “in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.”

Have you forgotten your own words????

"THERE ARE NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES WHICH SUPPORT THE UNIVERSALISTS THEOLOGY!!!! FINELINEN SAYS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SALVATION FROM ANYONE WHO IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".

Major1 · Jun 22, 2020

FineLinen said:
We will again review the scope of the koine ta pavnte.

By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta panta) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the…

Ex= The Source

Di= The Agent

Eiv= The Goal

The Koine, ta pavnte, is the strongest word for all in the Scriptures; it literally means the all.

ta pavnte/ ta panta, “in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.”

**It is not in the limited sense of “nearly all”, “pavnte” minus “ta”

The final preposition [eiv) reveals the ultimate goal of all that is. What has been provided in Christ is a re-turn, a re-storation, a re-newing, a re-demption, a re-concilation, a re-surrection, a re-stitution.

The prefix “re” means back again, again, anew–and all the words with this prefix speak of something that left its place and has now made its circuit and come back to the point of its beginning.

In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

Why don't we review the scope of your own words which by the way are 100% true......
"THERE ARE NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES WHICH SUPPORT THE UNIVERSALISTS THEOLOGY!!!! FINELINEN SAYS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SALVATION FROM ANYONE WHO IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".

FineLinen · Jun 22, 2020

Major1 said:
Why don't we review the scope of your own words which by the way are 100% true......
"THERE ARE NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES WHICH SUPPORT THE UNIVERSALISTS THEOLOGY!!!! FINELINEN SAYS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SALVATION FROM ANYONE WHO IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".

Major you know you have not quoted my entire response.

The Lake of Fire will be the experience of all creation. The Lake of all lakes has one purpose and one purpose ONLY. That purpose is change & transformation by the purifying God of Fire/Pur.

God IS FIRE.

There is no escape from this glorious God. ALL creation dwells within Him!

No escape from Him the consuming Fire!

Word and Spirit · Jun 22, 2020

FineLinen said:
False doctrines are indeed contrary to the One who stands before us. They come out of broken mankind who cannot think straight as a result of sin.

Your question remains: what is your criteria for false doctrine?

Something that clearly contradicts the clear Word of God. You keep asking me, and I don't know how better to answer the same question.

Shrewd Manager · Jun 23, 2020

Major1 said:
Do you really feel like there is a need to ask such a question???

You have read the Bible...right?

The Bible?! Is that what we were talking about? Ouch, now you tell me.

So I presume your answer is a resounding YES, God wants all saved, first and foremost.

But you also believe He fails, do you not, and instead torments the many forever?

And if so, do you see a logical difficulty in holding these 2 beliefs?

Shrewd Manager · Jun 23, 2020

Word and Spirit said:
Something that clearly contradicts the clear Word of God. You keep asking me, and I don't know how better to answer the same question.

If I may, m'Deer, a concrete example:

I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. (Isa 45:23, reiterated in Rom 14:11 and Phil 2:10, see also Heb 6:13, Rev 15:4, 21:24-26)

Now, does scripture come any more clear and emphatic than that?

God swears an oath by Himself, surely the overarching covenant, the paramount commitment, the biggest promise.
Everyone, the totality of knee and tongue bearers, will swear allegiance.
The allegiance will be true, because it proceeds from the righteousness of His word.
The reiteration of the oath in the NT gives it the force of an age-enduring covenant.

Now, do you say that there's some other clearer interpretation of this verse (whether on its own or read in light of other scripture) that still accords God the glory? (Unless of course giving God the glory not a criterion you adopt.)

Shrewd Manager · Jun 23, 2020

Major1 said:
So you do not accept the Old Test. as the Word of God...?

Here we see the reason why we disagree. You actually do not seem to understand the Scriptures so it has led you to false teachings of men and denominational teachings.

Rev. 15:3 is the actual "Song of Moses".

Now if you have the desire to learn the song of Moses you need to go to Exodus 15:1-21 or Deut. 32:1-43.

BOTH songs are about God's deliverance and salvation and faithfulness.

Yes, thank you Major, it's always revealing to steep ourselves anew in these great passages from the Torah, washed in Lamb's blood.

But the Song of Moshe in Ex 15:1-21 is entirely consistent with the 'all nations will come' great promise of Isa 45:23 and Rev 15:4. For in Exodus they sing of the victory of God and His ppl over the chariots of Pharaoh drowned in the sea.

In Revelation 20:13-15 we learn that:

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

So those pursuing Egyptians who drowned at the Red Sea crossing will be raised for judgment (Egypt is a 'nation' as defined).

We also see in Deuteronomy 32:43:

"Rejoice, O nations, with His people; For He will avenge the blood of His servants, And will render vengeance on His adversaries, And will atone for His land and His people."

The nations are rejoicing at God's vengeance on HIs adversaries? Ipso facto God's adversaries are NOT the nations. Aha, aha, you see Major, may the scales fall a little.

Major1 said:
The book of the Revelation is "Christocentric". He is the Lord of the book.

Jesus is the Lord of all things. And THE SALVATION OF GOD, Yahushua. He will save the nations from God's adversaries. Otherwise he wouldn't be named Salvation.

Major1 said:
In Rev. 15:2 where YOU did not speak of, we see the word "THEY". THEY are the ones who have overcome the Beast. THEY can sing the song of Moses because they have been saved and delivered.

Rev. 21:24-26 does NOT saw or imply that EVERYONE in the nations of the world will be found.

It means All the nations that are saved; or all the saved considered as nations. "The nations" are the redeemed, described in this way on account of their selection from every "kindred, and nation, and tribe, and tongue" (Revelation 7:9): not the wicked nations of Revelation 16:19.

Nice try Major, but you'll need to deal with the continuity/ parallels with Isaiah 45:23 to the promise in Revelation 15:4. Everyone means everyone, they get saved. The real enemies are sin, death, Babylon and the false trinity. They get vanquished. End of story.

FineLinen · Jun 23, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
If I may, m'Deer, a concrete example:

I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. (Isa 45:23, reiterated in Rom 14:11 and Phil 2:10, see also Heb 6:13, Rev 15:4, 21:24-26)

Now, does scripture come any more clear and emphatic than that?

God swears an oath by Himself, surely the overarching covenant, the paramount commitment, the biggest promise.

Everyone, the totality of knee and tongue bearers, will swear allegiance.

The allegiance will be true, because it proceeds from the righteousness of His word.

The reiteration of the oath in the NT gives it the force of an age-enduring covenant.

Now, do you say that there's some other clearer interpretation of this verse (whether on its own or read in light of other scripture) that still accords God the glory? (Unless of course giving God the glory not a criterion you adopt.)

Dear Shrewd: The manifold wisdom of God is made up of two words in koine. They are poikilos & polupoikilos.

The first applies to the varied trials of saintdom.

The second, the much varied wisdom of the inexhaustible God of Glory.

"And so here I am, preaching and writing about things that are way over my head, the inexhaustible riches and generosity of Christ." Eph. 3:10

FineLinen · Jun 23, 2020

Word and Spirit said:
Something that clearly contradicts the clear Word of God. You keep asking me, and I don't know how better to answer the same question.

W. & S. there is such a thing as understanding in Scripture. There is also the working of ephphatha when the Master of Reconciliation opens blind eyes and deaf ears.

The "clear word of God" may be clear to you and others, but alas, the Saviour and Lord still specializes in the mighty work of opening!

"Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures."

Der Alte · Jun 23, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
* * * I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. (Isa 45:23, reiterated in Rom 14:11 and Phil 2:10, see also Heb 6:13, Rev 15:4, 21:24-26)
Now, does scripture come any more clear and emphatic than that? * * *

Except for one thing you have added the word "allegiance" to the scripture.
The word of God says every knee will bow. It must be important because it is repeated 3 times.

1. Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
2. Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
3. Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

None of these verses include the word "allegiance.
This is another important point it is recorded 9 times in scripture. The followers of UR ignore these verses.

1. Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2. Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
3. Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
4. Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
5. Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
6. Acts of the apostles 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
7. Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
8. Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;.
9. Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

What does “make your enemies your footstool mean?” Joshua shows us in Josh. 10.

Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah….
Joshua 10:22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.
Joshua 10:23 And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.
Joshua 10:24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.
…
Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.

Joshua was a type of Christ. The enemies of Joshua, the first Jesus, did not become faithful, obedient members of his army.

Shrewd Manager · Jun 23, 2020

Der Alte said:
Except for one thing you have added the word "allegiance" to the scripture.
The word of God says every knee will bow. It must be important because it is repeated 3 times.
1. Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
2. Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
3. Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;None of these verses include the word "allegiance.

Isaiah 45:23 By Myself I have sworn; truth has gone out from My mouth, a word that will not be revoked: Every knee will bow before Me, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Strong's Hebrew: 7650. שָׁבַע (shaba) -- to swear

I generally use the NASB, but many translations refer to 'allegiance'. Do you say they swear expletives lol?

Der Alte said:
What does “make your enemies your footstool mean?” Joshua shows us in Josh. 10.
Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah….
Joshua 10:22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.
Joshua 10:23 And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.
Joshua 10:24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.
…
Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.Joshua was a type of Christ. The enemies of Joshua, the first Jesus, did not become faithful, obedient members of his army.

The answer is found in worship:

All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will worship before Him. (Ps 22:27)

All kings bow down before him, all nations serve him. (Ps 72:11)

All nations shall come and worship before the Lord, and they shall glorify His name. (Ps 86:9)

The nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth His glory. (Ps 102:15)

All flesh will bless His holy name forever and ever. (Ps 145:21)

All the nations will come and worship before Him, because His righteous acts will be revealed. (Rev 15:4)

Bowing down in worship is the correct answer der Alte.

Word and Spirit · Jun 23, 2020

FineLinen said:
W. & S. there is such a thing as understanding in Scripture. There is also the working of ephphatha when the Master of Reconciliation opens blind eyes and deaf ears.

The "clear word of God" may be clear to you and others, but alas, the Saviour and Lord still specializes in the mighty work of opening!

"Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures."

But there have been generations lost who have believed false doctrine. Their eyes were never opened. They let their teachers do the studying of the word they should have been doing to see if what they said was true or not.

FineLinen · Jun 23, 2020

Word and Spirit said:
But there have been generations lost who have believed false doctrine. Their eyes were never opened. They let their teachers do the studying of the word they should have been doing to see if what they said was true or not.

The vast segments of our fallen race are broken by action of one man. This is not the result of false teachers, but simply by being born. That heredity of genes & chromosomes leaves all of us in dire straights indeed.

Welcome to the One who radically alters this deplorable state.

Adam1 = the polus/ many "made sinners".

Last Adam = the identical polus "made righteous."

Every last one by anakainosis !

FineLinen · Jun 23, 2020

Our God is Fire.

He is our destination.

Fire is not a characteristic of Abba. Fire is His essence!

Word and Spirit · Jun 23, 2020

FineLinen said:
The vast segments of our fallen race are broken by action of one man. This is not the result of false teachers, but simply by being born. That heredity of genes & chromosomes leaves all of us in dire straights indeed.

Welcome to the One who radically alters this deplorable state.

Adam1 = the polus/ many "made sinners".

Last Adam = the identical polus "made righteous."

Every last one by anakainosis !

Hmmmm! That sound very much like the false doctrine of Universalism. Is that what you are? A Universalist?

FineLinen · Jun 23, 2020

Word and Spirit said:
Hmmmm! That sound very much like the false doctrine of Universalism. Is that what you are? A Universalist?

Are you kidding?

At the bottom of every post is what I believe in a nutshell.

I Believe

I believe in “the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouths of the prophets since the world began.” -Acts 3:21-

I believe that the “good tidings of great joy will be to all people.” -Luke 2:10

I believe that believers in Christ Jesus are “born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God.” -John 1:13-

I believe

I believe that God appointed Jesus Christ “heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.” -Hebr. 1:2-

I believe that “no man can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him.” -John 6:44

I believe “God gave Jesus authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as God gave him.” -John 17:2-

I believe

I believe the Father “has given all things into Jesus’ hands.” -John 13:3-

I believe that Jesus Christ “was the true light which gives light to every man who come into the world.” -John 1:9

I believe that “just as the result of one trespass was condemnation to all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification for all men.” -Romans 5:18

I believe one mans sin “brought condemnation for all mankind.” -Romans 5: 19-

I believe one mans righteousness brings “right relationship with God, and new life for everyone.” -Romans 5:19-

I believe one mans sin made the whole of mankind sinners. I also believe the righteousness of one Man makes the whole of mankind righteous.

FineLinen · Jun 23, 2020

Word and Spirit said:
Hmmmm! That sound very much like the false doctrine of Universalism.

Dear St Paul: please be advised you are promoting a "false doctrine".

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."

Word and Spirit · Jun 23, 2020

FineLinen said:
Are you kidding?

At the bottom of every post is what I believe in a nutshell.

I never read it, but reading it now, I would say, yes, you believe in Universalism.

The Lake Of Fire

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Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

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