WATCH: Rioters In California Tear Down Religious Statue Of Father Junipero Serra

Wolseley

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They tore down a statue of Ulysses S. Grant, too, and he can hardly be said to have been fighting to keep minorities in subjugation. What you've got here are rioters who want to destroy things, so they destroy them. Good, bad, it makes no difference. This has nothing to do with race, or politics, or worldview; they just destroy things wholesale because they want to be destructive.
 
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Gnarwhal

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They tore down a statue of Ulysses S. Grant, too, and he can hardly be said to have been fighting to keep minorities in subjugation. What you've got here are rioters who want to destroy things, so they destroy them. Good, bad, it makes no difference. This has nothing to do with race, or politics, or worldview; they just destroy things wholesale because they want to be destructive.

Yep, wholesale militant anarcho-communism unleashed by the Democrats on their own country and their own people. Straight out of the Stalin-Mao-Pol Pot playbook.
 
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pdudgeon

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Yep, wholesale militant anarcho-communism unleashed by the Democrats on their own country and their own people. Straight out of the Stalin-Mao-Pol Pot playbook.

The question now is will they be brought to justice for doing so, or will they form a counter-revolution, and turn the Country into a dictatorship?
 
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Gnarwhal

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The question now is will they be brought to justice for doing so, or will they form a counter-revolution, and turn the Country into a dictatorship?

My recent nihilism has me suspect the latter, but I want to hope for the former. I tell you what, if secession really happens, the radical left is going to be the subject of a new deck of cards in the remnant country.
 
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Wolseley

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The question now is will they be brought to justice for doing so, or will they form a counter-revolution, and turn the Country into a dictatorship?

I think it's far more likely that a civil war will develop, with a period of intense upheaval while the population migrates to the areas where their like-minded compatriots are in the majority. Then, the lines will consolidate, and eventually, several new, small countries will be formed out of the former USA.


I don't like the whole scenario, but I think we're seeing that the polarization has reached the point where each end of the socio-political spectrum is simply incapable of living with the opposite side any longer. We have, for all intents and purposes, become two, separate countries, living in different worldviews, different moral bases, different values, and clustered in different areas (the coasts and large cities vs. Flyover Land).


Both sides are mutually hostile, or at least extremely mistrustful, of the other; it's inevitable that in such a situation there's going to be a massive split, and we'll end up like the former Yugoslavia: each "tribe" gets it's own area, and the others can stay out.
 
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Michie

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Davidnic

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We had a big conversation about St. Serra when he was canonized.

I went through all the volumes of his letters and writings and it was easy to prove that 99.9% of the allegations against him are false, out of context, and just plain lazy from historical perspective.

Most of them are part of the black legend against all Spanish Catholics. And others are because the Spanish government did not like the fact that he prevented the sex trade of young native women by their own father's to the Spanish military.

it's all in the historical record for anyone who wants to do more than Wikipedia or spoon-fed articles.
 
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chevyontheriver

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They tore down a statue of Ulysses S. Grant, too, and he can hardly be said to have been fighting to keep minorities in subjugation. What you've got here are rioters who want to destroy things, so they destroy them. Good, bad, it makes no difference. This has nothing to do with race, or politics, or worldview; they just destroy things wholesale because they want to be destructive.
A statue of Lincoln has been defaced. A statue of Gandhi has been attacked. A statue of an abolitionist has been attacked. This IS insanity. I'm waiting for them to sack a statue of St. Martin de Porres. I think that is inevitable, just before they start burning churches.
 
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Davidnic

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Here is a link to the post from the thread from 2015 where I went through the three volumes about 1,200 pages of his letters, official correspondence from the Spanish government, and various collections at different libraries. No he was not the monster people like to paint in a false historical portrait.

The original link to the direct post seems to not be working give me a second
 
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Davidnic

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So let's look at what I have researched so far. The Church took 72 years to go through the writings and the historical record. Mainly with the intent of trying to see the intention and heart of Fr. Serra. Pope Francis, at the canonization said:

Junípero sought to defend the dignity of the native community, to protect it from those who had mistreated and abused it. Mistreatment and wrongs which today still trouble us, especially because of the hurt which they cause in the lives of many people.​

He then said this to Congress:

Tragically, the rights of those who were here long before us were not always respected. For those peoples and their nations, from the heart of American democracy, I wish to reaffirm my highest esteem and appreciation. Those first contacts were often turbulent and violent, but it is difficult to judge the past by the criteria of the present. Nonetheless, when the stranger in our midst appeals to us, we must not repeat the sins and the errors of the past. We must resolve now to live as nobly and as justly as possible, as we educate new generations not to turn their back on our “neighbors” and everything around us.

So does that meet with the man we meet in the writings? I will put in my three previous research posts so they are together at this point. While reading them try to reverse engineer how the Church got to this point. Take those two quotes in mind and look at the text of Fr. Serra's letters. Also bear in mind the Church is treating Fr. Serra and the mission system as different entities. The Mission system itself was not created by him, it was a pre-existing construct and method of Spanish occupation. What the Church is looking at is did he administer them with a quality of compassion that was heroic in his time. Can the excesses of the system be traced to him in such a way that he is culpable? Or do we see evidence that he mitigated and opposed them? That is, I believe what the Church was looking at in this. Remember I am not commenting on the system but the man. Research into the system is connected and relevant but we are not there yet. We are still doing the historical analysis of the actions of the individual. The Mission system, in Fr. Serra's own writings is mentioned to have had bad practices handed down to them by other religious. Dominicans and Franciscans ran things differently. Take that into account take Franciscan spirituality into account when determining mindset. Franciscans have a different concept of "difficult living situation" than others.

So here is the research until now. Read over what the Pope said at the two events. And with that in mind read the research and see if you have an opinion on why the Church may have decided as She did. Again this is not an exoneration of the mission system. The system itself and actions before, during and after Serra will have to be researched as well. But strictly on person, historical context so far and the writings. Look at what the Pope said and what the texts indicate. And see if we can understand why the decision was made in light of what we know so far.
 
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Davidnic

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To put that in context. It is not to the King of Spain the letter is to Governor Don Felipe de Neve. That is widely in error on the internet. And, although it does not justify beating in my modern view we need to context it to the time...the rest of that quote goes on to explain that the generals and commanders of armies and heads of orders are not exempt from it. Not even Serra himself. That is the context of the quote and, I am finding, several others are not complete and not referenced properly when found. Again, to me...today..that is not a justified act. But Fr. Serra was saying he did not see why the Natives should be exempt when no one else was.

It goes on to say:

I am surprised, too, that Your Lordship should consider this practice among
other evil customs which the Fathers from San Fernando passed on
to the Reverend Dominican Fathers in Old California.


And:

But now, if none of these arguments has any weight with you,
Sir, be it so, that in this mission the correction of the alcaldes should
not be entrusted to us.


And:

Accordingly, I earnestly ask Your Lordship, kindly to tell me
what instructions I am to give to the Fathers of the said missions
of San Luis and San Gabriel.


Source: Writings of Junípero Serra / Edited by Antoníne v.3 1713-1784. p. 407-417

So he mentions that there were evils and excesses that his fathers ended but he did not consider corporal punishment (that all there Native and Spaniard were subject to) to be one of them. Which hints that he was eliminating abuse. Also the quote shows him as defiant but the rest of the letter shows he says then take away our ability to do this and think on what I have said and tell me what I should tell those in the missions experiencing problems.

Now I am not for corporal punishment but he was not just whipping natives (as the quote implies). There were standing practices of the time where corporal punishment was used. In the letter he mentions how it was used on Cortez in the past in front of Natives to show that even the leaders were not exempt.

So not justifying it, but that is the context of the full letter. Which is, again, not to the king as the internet attributes it. But to the Governor. And he is directly saying "your Lordship" addressing the Governor not even the Governor who is bringing to him the concerns of the King.

This is an example of why I am going through his writings. Some things I see cited lack proper attribution, context, are translated incorrectly or pieces of multiple quotes connected by ellipses. I am just at the beginning of this and sourcing attributed quotes and searching for context.
 
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Davidnic

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I had some time tonight so I finished the first 400 pages of his writings and started volume two. Most of it was about coming to America and clerical stuff both the housekeeping of setting up and organization and then actual Clerical stuff. I will say what I am reading (which have reproduced originals as well so I know they are not edited to paint a picture) does not show someone who loves to punish or even likes it.

So far...up to now the military is allowed to discipline Natives and they are harsh, usually deadly. There is conflict between Fr. Serra and the military over this. He has been forbidden to discipline by order of the military, mainly because his justice is seen as too soft. There is direct evidence to no forced baptisms. He is opposed to them and laments that he wishes he spoke the language better so he could convert more because he needs to be able to talk to them better to do it. And some converts children travel to Spain to learn the language so they can become translators for the priests, who have a hard time learning the Native American languages at their ages. But he is categorically refusing to baptize those who he feels do not understand and lamenting his inability to speak better to those he is working with. So I can say now, any forced baptisms in the system came without his knowledge or after his death.

Then, in the second volume so far there is an incident where a mission is destroyed and the death of a priest killed by natives. The local authorities want to kill people in response. In the letter, the attack is explained:

Hail Jesus, Mary, Joseph!
Most Excellent Lord.
My most revered and most excellent Sir
:​

As we are in the vale of tears, not all the news I have to relate can be pleasant. And so I make no excuses for announcing to Your Excellency the tragic news I have just received of the total destruction of the San Diego Mission, and of the death of the senior of its two religious ministers, called Father Fray Luis Jayme, at the hand of the rebellious gentiles and of the Christian neophytes. All this happened, November 5th, about one or two o'clock at night. The gentiles came together from forty rancherias, according to information given me, and set fire to the church, after sacking it. Then they went on to
the storehouse, the house where the Fathers lived, the soldiers' barracks, and all the rest of the buildings.

They killed a carpenter from Guadalaxara and a blacksmith from Tepic. They wounded with their arrows the four soldiers, who alone were on guard at the said mission. Even though two of them were badly wounded, they have already recovered. The other religious, whose name is Father Fray Vicente Fuster, over and above the fright he got, received no further injuries than a wound in the shoulder, caused by a stone. He suffered pain from it for several days. On the morning following that sad night, he withdrew, in company with the handful still surviving, to the presidio. They carried on the shoulders of those Christian Indians who had remained loyal the dead, and the badly wounded. From there he writes to me asking me to tell him what he is to do.

This news I received the day before yesterday, at about nine o'clock at night, when the Captain Commandant, Don Fernando, came bringing it and the mail.

The military wanted to go and kill by the dozens in retribution. It is the policy when someone is killed they go into the tribes and kill in retribution to show them never to do it again. The old kill one of ours we kill ten ideology. Fr. Serra begs that they be allowed to live. That anyone who kills a priest be forgiven after moderate punishment only (and then only the one who did it if captured) and not killed as the military plans. It continues:

Most Excellent Lord, one the most important requests I made of the Most Illustrious Inspector General, at the beginning of these conquests was: if ever the Indians, whether they be gentile or Christian, killed me, they should be forgiven. The same request I make of Your Excellency. It has been my own fault I did not make this request before.

To see a formal statement drawn up by Your Excellency to that effect, in so far as it concerns me, and the other religious who at present are subject to me or will be in the future, would be for me a special consolation during the time Our Lord God will be pleased to add to my advancing years.

While the missionary is alive, let the soldiers guard him, and watch over him, like the pupils of God's very eyes. That is as it should be. Nor do I disdain such a favor for myself. But after the missionary has been killed, what can be gained by campaigns? Some will say to frighten them and prevent them from killing others.

What I say is that, in order to prevent them from killing others, keep better guard over them than they did over the one who has been killed; and, as to the murderer, let him live, in order that he should be saved—which is the very purpose of our coming here, and the reason which justifies it. Give him to understand, after a moderate amount of punishment, that he is being pardoned in accordance with our law, which commands us to forgive injuries; and let us prepare him, not for death, but for eternal life. Most Excellent Lord, may Your Excellency pardon me for my interference, who knows for what result. The details of all that has occurred, Your Excellency will see in the Officers' reports.

After this there is the strict enforcement of the policy of whipping those who attempt to leave the mission and go to those who are raiding the missions. Apparently Fr. Serra had not been enforcing it and had let it slide over the years and it is only increased because it led to raids. The military had planned to simply kill anyone who left and whenever someone on their side was killed they would go and decimate what they could find as a lesson. Fr. Serra tried to stopped that. I am not sure at this point in research if he did.

I would be including any abuses or ill treatment if it was indicated right now, but so far there is none. Let me be clear, he is racially paternalistic. Seeing the natives as not yet in the adulthood as a people. And that is pervasive in the writings. But that is in almost all writings of the time. His attitude is the textbook example of paternalism.

But there is not delight in punishment or even an excess. Rather there are counsels for moderation and explaining things over whipping. And for my reading so far he is not even allowed to discipline. Later he gets that authority. But it seems personally he is stopping more of them than ordering them. And he is definitely the voice of moderation against when the military wants to kill.

Now on the issue of cultural genocide, that local language and traditions are being purged. In that I am researching his role further. He has not, at this point done anything to eradicate language. In fact the opposite. It is a historical fact that the mission system itself engaged in cultural genocide, much like the Indian School in Carlisle Pennsylvania and the later Bureau of Indian Affair schools. But I am looking for direct involvement by Fr. Serra. Either in personal order or philosophical framework. Essentially is he of the eradicate culture model or the more Gregorian approach of Enculturation (although that still destroys it does not eradicate)? That has not been revealed yet in his writings.

Sources:
Writings of Junípero Serra / Edited by Antoníne v.2.Serra pp. 401-409
Writings of Junípero Serra / Edited by Antoníne V.1 (general synopsis of Material)

Adding further research on if Fr. Serra managed to stop the military from executing people. Yes. With his intervention the upper levels of authority compromised and did not execute but they did not pardon as he wanted. They settled for imprisonment and later exile.

Source:
Provincial State Papers, Archivos de California, Provincial Records Ms, 1:143, Bancroft Library, Berkeley, California.

I am researching the situation around the quote going around the internet that we have discussed already. It is the one where Fr. Serra says he sees no reason why the Natives should be exempt from whipping. The already discussed context is that no one else was exempt so it was not understandable to him. There are two incidents around the quote, that again is to the Governor and not the King (as attributed), that highlight situations where Fr. Serra wished to use whipping. He writes:

What in a mission like San Luis Obispo, which is fifty leagues away from here, its nearest presidio?
From the first mentioned of these missions, they write to tell me that the Fathers have discovered, and have positive proof, that their alcalde, Nicolas, was supplying women to as many soldiers as asked for them.

So a community leader within the mission was providing native women of the tribe to the military men in order to avoid punishment for other crimes he is committing. He eventually was whipped (when the fathers handed him over to the military) but when the order came from the governor that no one should do that now he went back to things again and no one was now stopping it.

In another incident:

At the San Luis Mission, the alcalde kidnapped another man's wife and took off with her, and it was quite some while before they arrested him.

Looking into that and how they termed things then. This does not seem to be a mutual elopement. It was kidnapping and rape. This man was allowed to go free because after light punishment the military did not know what to do in light of the governors orders.

Again at the end of the letter Fr. Serra says they will do what is ordered but the context of the quote and his defense of whipping in the ten pages that surround it is...what do you want me to do if not that, because now people are committing really bad crimes and not stopping.

This was because they can not just incarcerate everyone with their space and abilities and the Franciscans were opposed to the death penalty. Earlier in the letter he writes:

I think that nobody will deny that scandals which go unstopped and unpunished are generally attended by the direst consequences

Again his attitude is paternalistic, that those in his care are ignorant in comparison to more "civilized" people. That is the general attitude of the time. Indeed, in the above quote he goes on to discuss how this is particularly true when people are "ignorant" and less civilized. This does not excuse paternalism but it does put it in context.

Also the governor is not asking that no one be whipped, only that everything go through his people. The ones who are getting unwilling native girls given to them as currency to avoid punishment. Historical note, this was creating a syphilis epidemic in the missions as the military men were giving it to the native women and it was spreading though the population. This was part of what Fr. Serra was trying to stop by punishing both the native suppliers of women and the military men. Although he had no authority over the military men he was often asking the authorities to respect the sexual restrictions of the Church and to stop this practice.

So this is not a debate between an enlightened governor and a backward priest. This is a power struggle between Church and State. And at the time the King in Spain is trying to weaken the religious orders. The local governor is trying to get in on that. So there is a wider dynamic in Spanish Politics at place that is only put in context with the whole picture.

Again it is up to each person to determine how they feel about the methods used. I am only trying to provide historical context. It stuck me as that quote was going around the internet that it lacked context and attribution. And I find that is the same with many quotes in this case. Although textually accurate they are not contextually clear.

None of this is meant to justify an ideology of colonization where the indigenous people see the colonizers (both ideologically and physically) as invaders. Each person needs to make up their own mind on that. My goal is not to justify the Mission System as an entity. That is a far greater historical and philosophical task that I have time for right now, if ever. I am simply going to the historical record, free of invective, to see if I can understand the intentions and heart of Fr. Serra. I am not attempting to present if that intention and heart justifies anything. I am simply presenting the primary source evidence to contrast with soundbite reporting in a heavily covered and morally relevant issue.

Source
Writings of Junípero Serra v.3 / Edited by Antoníne pp. 409-415 for direct quotes as well as a general contextual reading of pages 210 to the end of Vol 3 for historical explanation.

Note: I am using Fr. Serra as opposed to St. Serra, not because I am denying the title of Saint. But because as I comment on the historical documents I am using the titles of those communicating in their historical context. It makes referencing an search digital and hard copy documents easier from notes.

So let's look at what I have researched so far. The Church took 72 years to go through the writings and the historical record. Mainly with the intent of trying to see the intention and heart of Fr. Serra. Pope Francis, at the canonization said:

Junípero sought to defend the dignity of the native community, to protect it from those who had mistreated and abused it. Mistreatment and wrongs which today still trouble us, especially because of the hurt which they cause in the lives of many people.​

He then said this to Congress:

Tragically, the rights of those who were here long before us were not always respected. For those peoples and their nations, from the heart of American democracy, I wish to reaffirm my highest esteem and appreciation. Those first contacts were often turbulent and violent, but it is difficult to judge the past by the criteria of the present. Nonetheless, when the stranger in our midst appeals to us, we must not repeat the sins and the errors of the past. We must resolve now to live as nobly and as justly as possible, as we educate new generations not to turn their back on our “neighbors” and everything around us.

So does that meet with the man we meet in the writings? I will put in my three previous research posts so they are together at this point. While reading them try to reverse engineer how the Church got to this point. Take those two quotes in mind and look at the text of Fr. Serra's letters. Also bear in mind the Church is treating Fr. Serra and the mission system as different entities. The Mission system itself was not created by him, it was a pre-existing construct and method of Spanish occupation. What the Church is looking at is did he administer them with a quality of compassion that was heroic in his time. Can the excesses of the system be traced to him in such a way that he is culpable? Or do we see evidence that he mitigated and opposed them? That is, I believe what the Church was looking at in this. Remember I am not commenting on the system but the man. Research into the system is connected and relevant but we are not there yet. We are still doing the historical analysis of the actions of the individual. The Mission system, in Fr. Serra's own writings is mentioned to have had bad practices handed down to them by other religious. Dominicans and Franciscans ran things differently. Take that into account take Franciscan spirituality into account when determining mindset. Franciscans have a different concept of "difficult living situation" than others.

So here is the research until now. Read over what the Pope said at the two events. And with that in mind read the research and see if you have an opinion on why the Church may have decided as She did. Again this is not an exoneration of the mission system. The system itself and actions before, during and after Serra will have to be researched as well. But strictly on person, historical context so far and the writings. Look at what the Pope said and what the texts indicate. And see if we can understand why the decision was made in light of what we know so far.
 
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