Resurrection, First Resurrection and New Birth

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟182,548.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I refer you back to posts 2&3 that refute your error.



Revelation 20:4 says, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be (plural future middle indicative) priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign (plural future middle indicative) with him a thousand years.”

This is speaking from the perspective of the "first resurrection." This can only relate to Christ's glorious victory over the grave that allowed the "souls" of God's people to rise to the heavenly abode during the intermediate state to reign with Christ.

The focus here is what results from the “first resurrection.” It is not just that the elect secure eternal salvation and are saved from the terror of eternal punishment (the second death) but it is that they become kings and priests as a result of this great victory over every enemy that has held man down. It is important to see that the wording here is made in the context of the resurrection. It commenced the millennial period, when Jesus defeated the grave. There is no other first resurrection.

We are reigning now. We are kings and priests on earth now. The "dead in Christ" are kings and priests in heaven now. After we identified with this resurrection we entered into the heavenly reign of Christ in life on earth (in its yet imperfect sense) and in glory (in its more perfect sense) when He comes again.

Acts 17:28 tells us, “For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.”

Through Christ – and what He has secured at Calvary – we now have our standing and inheritance. We possess a spiritual power within us from above since Pentecost that will assure us victory in the many spiritual challenges we face on this earth.

The New Testament respectfully states that we are what we are and we will be what we will be “through Christ” “in Christ” or “by Christ.” Ephesians 5:30 describes the spiritual oneness found in Christ: “For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.” Our “life is hid with Christ in God” (Col 3:3). That means we “are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power” (Col 2:11).

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made (aorist active indicative) us kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

We are kings now!!! We therefore reign now!!! This is current and occurs before the second coming of the Lord. This shows what we are now positionally and spiritually “in Christ” – which is reigning in delegated authority will be realized in all its eternal glory physically when we are glorified at Christ’s Coming. The elect of God become kings and priests in salvation when they enter into all the riches of Christ and His glorious power. We become joint-heirs with Him in His current reign and marvelous glory. We become imitators of Him in His humble and contrite earthly ministry. Here again Calvary is given as the transaction that enabled believers to enter into the two spiritual offices described here – kingship and priesthood. Without the cross-work we could never have realized these heavenly privileges.

This dual role of kingship and priesthood is not just restricted to the redeemed in heaven, or does it commence at entry into the heavenly shore, it begins upon this earth at the new birth. The family of God today are positionally reigning as kings and priest in both heaven and on earth. They perform such an awesome function in and through the person of Christ and His impeccable life, His atoning death and victorious resurrection. In fact, 1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

We are kings and priests today. The demand of a priest was to make a sacrifice and intercede for the people. We fulfil that spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense. The responsibility of a king was to reign and exercise authority and power within the kingdom. We fulfil that spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense.
Since Christ is the first resurrection and firstborn from the dead and the firsfruits of the resurrection, then whose resurrection is Rev 20:4-6 speaking about?
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,982
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,066.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Since Christ is the first resurrection and firstborn from the dead and the firsfruits of the resurrection, then whose resurrection is Rev 20:4-6 speaking about?

Those who are spiritually resurrected in Christ through His first resurrection! You totally ducked around my previous post that explained that!

Now, will you please answer this question you have been ducking around?

What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
 
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟182,548.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Those who are spiritually resurrected in Christ through His first resurrection!

Now, will you please answer this question you have been ducking around?

What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
Your answer is wrong and you have failed to prove that the New Testament's references to resurrection refers to anything but a bodily resurrection.

You won't understand the Biblical answer because Christ's resurrection is called the first resurrection in the epistles and He is called the firsfruits of the resurrection in the epistles but the Revelation calls the resurrection of saints "the first resurrection" so you by way of eisegesis read "spiritual" into the concept of resurrection which is only bodily resurrection and force-fit your square peg into the round hole of the fact of new birth.
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,982
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,066.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Your answer is wrong and you have failed to prove that the New Testament's references to resurrection refers to anything but a bodily resurrection.

You won't understand the Biblical answer because Christ's resurrection is called the first resurrection in the epistles and He is called the firsfruits of the resurrection in the epistles but the Revelation calls the resurrection of saints "the first resurrection" so you by way of eisegesis read "spiritual" into the concept of resurrection which is only bodily resurrection and force-fit your square peg into the round hole of the fact of new birth.

What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
 
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟182,548.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
You won't understand the Biblical answer because Christ's resurrection is called the first resurrection in the epistles and He is called the firsfruits of the resurrection in the epistles but the Revelation calls the resurrection of saints "the first resurrection" so you by way of eisegesis read "spiritual" into the concept of resurrection which is only bodily resurrection and force-fit your square peg into the round hole of the fact of new birth.
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,982
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,066.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You won't understand the Biblical answer because Christ's resurrection is called the first resurrection in the epistles and He is called the firsfruits of the resurrection in the epistles but the Revelation calls the resurrection of saints "the first resurrection" so you by way of eisegesis read "spiritual" into the concept of resurrection which is only bodily resurrection and force-fit your square peg into the round hole of the fact of new birth.

So, i will take this as a reluctant admission that Premil has no corroboration for its opinion of the first resurrection.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,560
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,691.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
When he was saved, he was raised from the grave of his sin unto spiritual life. As a result of that: death has no hold on him. He now enters the presence of God to reign with Christ when he gives up the ghost. He will then experience the last aspect of redemption when his body is physically raised at the general resurrection at the climactic return of Christ to judge the living and the dead and introduce perfection and eternity.
You are right about the thief on the cross receiving spiritual life. He name will have been Written in the Book of Life at the moment of his belief in Jesus. John 3:16
When he died, however, neither Christ or him went to heaven, Jesus went there 40 days later, Acts 1:11, but the thief awaits the Great White Throne Judgment after the Millennium, along with everyone who has ever lived.

Your mistake is in thinking there will be a general resurrection at Jesus Return. That is not what the Bible says; ONLY the martyrs killed during the GT will be brought back to life, Revelation 20:4, and they too await the GWT at the end of the Millennium to receive immortality.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

grafted branch

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 21, 2019
1,526
246
46
Washington
✟238,025.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I never replied to this probably because I could not understand what you were asking - but now I realize it's because you seemed to think those folks rose before Christ's resurrection (which they did not).

I don’t think they rose before Christ. Christ was the first, which is why I don’t take issue with the Amil interpretation of the first resurrection. I was trying to find out what you do with the fact that there was a literal/physical resurrection that has already taken place.
 
Upvote 0

rwb

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2020
1,776
368
72
Branson
✟40,427.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The words resurrection and references to being raised from death in ALL the verses talking about Christ's resurrection from the dead and about the resurrection of those who believe in Him are speaking only about the bodily resurrection.

JESUS told us we had to be born from above spiritually in order to see or enter the Kingdom of heaven - He did not say we needed to be "resurrected", nor did HE call it "the first resurrection" - and neither does any New Testament verse talking about being raised (egeiro) from the dead or resurrection (anastasis) from death.

If Christ had not been the first resurrection from the dead, to die no more, then no human could be born again by His Spirit in us. It was at Pentecost that the Spirit was given to indwell every believer, giving them Spiritual life. Christ had to die, defeat death and return to the Father so He could send His life giving Spirit to us. Then the Holy Spirit will give believers everlasting spiritual life.

John 16:7 (KJV) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Again, this is only possible through the cross and resurrection of Christ. So once again this shows that the resurrection life we possess through His Spirit is not of our bodies being resurrected on the last day, but is partaking via our spirit, of the resurrection of Christ. We most assuredly must partake of the first resurrection through Christ' resurrection when we are born again. For this is the only way we are saved from the second death.

So even though Christ says we must be born from above spiritually, and not spiritually resurrected, we must nonetheless claim our part in the resurrection of Christ (first) to be saved, and enter the Kingdom of heaven.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

grafted branch

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 21, 2019
1,526
246
46
Washington
✟238,025.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
But those in Rev 20 are only resurrected after having been beheaded and after the return of Christ.

My interpretation is that it was Messiah that was cut off (Daniel 9:26) and it’s believing Israel that becomes beheaded. So those who were resurrected in Matthew 27:51-53 can be seen as those who were beheaded in Revelation 20:4.

Many have placed too much emphasis on the fact that the Revelation calls the resurrection that will take place when Christ returns "the first resurrection", and build a whole eisegetical doctrine on top of that one verse of scripture, without taking what the rest of scripture says into account.

Recognizing that it’s the first resurrection does help to eliminate some views, I don’t build an entire doctrine around that but I won’t ignore it either. Until you can show a reasonable explanation of how the first resurrection can be future while a resurrection has already taken place in the past, I can’t accept your view on this.
 
Upvote 0

grafted branch

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 21, 2019
1,526
246
46
Washington
✟238,025.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
No, i believe "the first resurrection" is Jesus' resurrection. What I am say is that what Rev 20 talks about those who have their "part" in "the first resurrection" are all those who have come to faith in Christ and are now united to Christ in salvation. According to Scripture, these experience spiritual resurrection because He has overcome sin, death, Hades and Satan.

Thank you for clarifying that, I knew that but sometimes my fingers don’t type the right thing.

Some Amils say that “beheaded” in Revelation 20:4 is referring to when a person becomes saved he gets spiritually beheaded and then Christ becomes the head. What is your view on “beheaded”?
 
Upvote 0

rwb

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2020
1,776
368
72
Branson
✟40,427.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Right. At last you've stopped equating the New Testament's statements regarding being raised from the dead/resurrection from the dead with new birth, even though all those verses are unambiguously talking about bodily resurrection.

Now you might start getting somewhere.

So.. those people had been beheaded and had refused the mark of the beast, and they were raised from the dead.

When did this happen, bearing in mind that Paul said,

1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;


When, in your opinion, were those who were beheaded for their testimony to Chris and for the Word of God and for refusing the mark of the beast, resurrected from the dead?

The martyred souls in Rev 20 were not resurrected from the dead. You are adding 'resurrection' to the verse, but it is not there.

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The verse simply says that John saw disembodied souls with Christ in heaven. And I know heaven is not mentioned in the verse, but since that is where Christ went when He ascended to the Father, it is correct to view these souls as being in heaven and not on the earth.

As I said there is no mention of resurrection in the verse, and for that matter the verse does not even say they had to come to life, but only that John saw those who have physically died in heaven, living and reigning with Christ a thousand years.

There is no physical life mentioned here because the souls are spiritual bodies, not physical bodies. They died in faith, so in death they went as spiritual body to be with the Lord in heaven through His life giving Spirit in them. Them leaving the natural body and being raised to heaven as a spiritual body is only possible because in life they partook of the first resurrection from the dead; i.e. Christ, Jesus our Lord.

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Christ calls this a resurrection, which may come as a surprise to you. That's because God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mt 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mt 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Some, perhaps even you, will insist that Christ here is referring to our bodily resurrection on the last day. But that cannot be, for it would not make any sense for Christ to say our physical, bodily resurrection on the last day will be as the angels in heaven; i.e. spiritual body.

No, in death the spirit of believers go to be with the Lord in heaven because in life they were partakers of the resurrection life and death of Christ, the first resurrection of the dead.
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,982
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,066.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Thank you for clarifying that, I knew that but sometimes my fingers don’t type the right thing.

Some Amils say that “beheaded” in Revelation 20:4 is referring to when a person becomes saved he gets spiritually beheaded and then Christ becomes the head. What is your view on “beheaded”?

I believe it is referring to “the souls“ of the dead in Christ during the intermediate state reigning and ruling with Christ until His final climatic second coming.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The verse simply says that John saw disembodied souls with Christ in heaven. And I know heaven is not mentioned in the verse, but since that is where Christ went when He ascended to the Father, it is correct to view these souls as being in heaven and not on the earth.

So I guess when satan is loosed from the pit, he surrounds the martyred saints in heaven rather than on earth like the text indicates? There are no other saints mentioned in Revelation 20 prior to verse 7, and if Amils insist the martyrs in verse 4 are reigning a thousand years in heaven, that means the camp of saints meant in verse 9 must mean the saints in heaven even though that contradicts the texts involved. But it is meaning these same martyrs in verse 4, but it's not meaning while they are in heaven, but is meaning while they are on earth after being bodily raised during the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Verse 1 starts on earth and ends still on earth in verse 9. Yet Amils insist verse 4 is meaning in heaven not on earth. The fact that the martyred saints shall be priests of God and Christ during the thousand years further proves that on the earth is meant here. There is no such thing as being priests of God and Christ while in heaven awaiting a bodily resurrection. Being priests of God and Christ is only relevant to something earthly, in regards to saints. Maybe all Amils are Catholic? I can see Catholics believing there is such a thing as being priests of God and Christ while in heaven awaiting a bodily resurrection.

In the event you don't agree that verse 1 starts on the earth, where would you propose the angel coming down from heaven is going down to if not the earth? Why is this angel coming down from heaven? Because that's where satan obviously is, and that he's coming down to take hold of him and cast him into the pit a thousand years. This also tells us Revelation 20:1 is meaning after the war in heaven, and after satan has been cast to the earth(Revelation 12).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,982
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,066.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The martyred souls in Rev 20 were not resurrected from the dead. You are adding 'resurrection' to the verse, but it is not there.

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The verse simply says that John saw disembodied souls with Christ in heaven. And I know heaven is not mentioned in the verse, but since that is where Christ went when He ascended to the Father, it is correct to view these souls as being in heaven and not on the earth.

As I said there is no mention of resurrection in the verse, and for that matter the verse does not even say they had to come to life, but only that John saw those who have physically died in heaven, living and reigning with Christ a thousand years.

There is no physical life mentioned here because the souls are spiritual bodies, not physical bodies. They died in faith, so in death they went as spiritual body to be with the Lord in heaven through His life giving Spirit in them. Them leaving the natural body and being raised to heaven as a spiritual body is only possible because in life they partook of the first resurrection from the dead; i.e. Christ, Jesus our Lord.

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Christ calls this a resurrection, which may come as a surprise to you. That's because God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mt 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mt 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Some, perhaps even you, will insist that Christ here is referring to our bodily resurrection on the last day. But that cannot be, for it would not make any sense for Christ to say our physical, bodily resurrection on the last day will be as the angels in heaven; i.e. spiritual body.

No, in death the spirit of believers go to be with the Lord in heaven because in life they were partakers of the resurrection life and death of Christ, the first resurrection of the dead.[
So I guess when satan is loosed from the pit, he surrounds the martyred saints in heaven rather than on earth like the text indicates? There are no other saints mentioned in Revelation 20 prior to verse 7, and if Amils insist the martyrs in verse 4 are reigning a thousand years in heaven, that means the camp of saints meant in verse 9 must mean the saints in heaven even though that contradicts the texts involved. But it is meaning these same martyrs in verse 4, but it's not meaning while they are in heaven, but is meaning while they are on earth after being bodily raised during the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Verse 1 starts on earth and ends still on earth in verse 9. Yet Amils insist verse 4 is meaning in heaven not on earth. The fact that the martyred saints shall be priests of God and Christ during the thousand years further proves that on the earth is meant here. There is no such thing as being priests of God and Christ while in heaven awaiting a bodily resurrection. Being priests of God and Christ is only relevant to something earthly, in regards to saints. Maybe all Amils are Catholic? I can see Catholics believing there is such a thing as being priests of God and Christ while in heaven awaiting a bodily resurrection.

In the event you don't agree that verse 1 starts on the earth, where would you propose the angel coming down from heaven is going down to if not the earth? Why is this angel coming down from heaven? Because that's where satan obviously is, and that he's coming down to take hold of him and cast him into the pit a thousand years. This also tells us Revelation 20:1 is meaning after the war in heaven, and after satan has been cast to the earth(Revelation 12).

For info: the elect can be found reigning in heaven and on earth today. Revelation 20 shows both.

Romans 5:17, “For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

Romans 8:16-18 says, “The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified with [him].”

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made (aorist active indicative) us kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

That reign occurs both in life and in death. It will also last for all eternity on the new earth when Jesus comes. Then the throne of God descends unto the perfected new earth.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

rwb

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2020
1,776
368
72
Branson
✟40,427.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So I guess when satan is loosed from the pit, he surrounds the martyred saints in heaven rather than on earth like the text indicates? There are no other saints mentioned in Revelation 20 prior to verse 7, and if Amils insist the martyrs in verse 4 are reigning a thousand years in heaven, that means the camp of saints meant in verse 9 must mean the saints in heaven even though that contradicts the texts involved. But it is meaning these same martyrs in verse 4, but it's not meaning while they are in heaven, but is meaning while they are on earth after being bodily raised during the first resurrection.

As SG clearly shows us, our reigning with Christ is not limited to our reigning with Him in heaven after we die. Our reigning with Christ begins when we have partaken of the resurrection of Christ in life. (Refer to verses SG quoted in reply #96). There will still be believers alive on this earth when Christ comes again. They are the camp of the saints on earth whom Satan seeks to destroy once he is loosed from the pit.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Verse 1 starts on earth and ends still on earth in verse 9. Yet Amils insist verse 4 is meaning in heaven not on earth. The fact that the martyred saints shall be priests of God and Christ during the thousand years further proves that on the earth is meant here. There is no such thing as being priests of God and Christ while in heaven awaiting a bodily resurrection. Being priests of God and Christ is only relevant to something earthly, in regards to saints. Maybe all Amils are Catholic? I can see Catholics believing there is such a thing as being priests of God and Christ while in heaven awaiting a bodily resurrection.

In John's vision is of disembodied souls (spiritual body) in heaven after death, it is not a vision of all the saints of God, for not all have died. They, like every believer are of the first resurrection while physically alive, living and reigning with Christ which began when we were born again during this time likened to a thousand years. And now living and reigning with Christ a thousand years in heaven (same symbolic time). Since the thousand years symbolize the whole Gospel age, living and reigning with Christ during this time begins when we are born again of His life giving Spirit. A thousand years is not limited only to living and reigning with Christ in heaven after death. Believers reigning with Christ encompasses the time from the Advent of Christ until the thousand years expire.

In the event you don't agree that verse 1 starts on the earth, where would you propose the angel coming down from heaven is going down to if not the earth? Why is this angel coming down from heaven? Because that's where satan obviously is, and that he's coming down to take hold of him and cast him into the pit a thousand years. This also tells us Revelation 20:1 is meaning after the war in heaven, and after satan has been cast to the earth(Revelation 12).

I do agree the angel came down from heaven to the earth to bind Satan who have been cast out of heaven to the earth. So I agree with all you have said here.
 
Upvote 0

rwb

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2020
1,776
368
72
Branson
✟40,427.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
For info: the elect can be found in heaven and on earth today. Revelation 20 shows both.

Romans 5:17, “For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

Romans 8:16-18 says, “The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified with [him].”

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made (aorist active indicative) us kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

That reigns occurs both in life and in death. It will also last for all eternity on the new earth when Jesus comes. Then the throne of God descends unto the perfected new earth.
[/QUOTE]

Thank you. This was very helpful in my reply to David.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
When he died, however, neither Christ or him went to heaven

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Exactly! And anyone paying attention to the text in Luke 23:42-43 should have noticed what it says in verse 42----remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Clearly, Christ did not come into His kingdom the same day He died. The kingdom meant here is the one He received during His ascension, and that when He comes into this kingdom it is meaning when He returns, it is meaning in the new Jerusalem in the new heavens and new earth since that's where paradise will be located at the time, according to Revelation 2:7, Revelation 21:1-2, and Revelation 22:2.


Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it(the new Jerusalem, the paradise of God, the paradise meant in Luke 23:43), and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

rwb

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2020
1,776
368
72
Branson
✟40,427.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Exactly! And anyone paying attention to the text in Luke 23:42-43 should have noticed what it says in verse 42----remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Clearly, Christ did not come into His kingdom the same day He died. The kingdom meant here is the one He received during His ascension, and that when He comes into this kingdom it is meaning when He returns, it is meaning in the new Jerusalem in the new heavens and new earth since that's where paradise will be located at the time, according to Revelation 2:7, Revelation 21:1-2, and Revelation 22:2.

Where did His spirit go, if not to the Kingdom of heaven?

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

The spirit of Christ went to heaven, and His body went into the tomb. When He ascended to heaven, according to Daniel, He received the Kingdom of heaven, because His Kingdom is not NOW of this world, or from this world, nor is it observable, rather His Kingdom is within believers. The Kingdom NOW is not physical, it is His spiritual Kingdom that is now being built through the Gospel preached in the power of His Spirit.

Daniel 7:14 (KJV) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

John 18:36 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Lu 17:20 ¶ And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Paradise, according to Paul is heaven, and where he would go a spiritual body when he died, because in life, through Paul he is counted among those who overcome death and the devil through the power of the Spirit in him.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

1 John 2:13 (KJV) I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
1 John 2:14 (KJV) I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

1 John 4:4 (KJV) Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

This is the Kingdom of heaven that will be a physical Kingdom of Christ on the new earth forever when the spiritual Kingdom of heaven is complete.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it(the new Jerusalem, the paradise of God, the paradise meant in Luke 23:43), and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Exactly! Paradise of God is the Kingdom of heaven that is NOW, in this age a spiritual Kingdom.
 
Upvote 0