20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

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DavidPT

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Since the battle is being waged now by His Word and Spirit in this Gospel age, the thousand symbolic years are also now, the whole Gospel age.

There would be no battle going on, in any sense, during the thousand years while satan is in the pit. Any battles going on, in any sense, would be taking place before and after he is out of the pit. The martyred saints in Revelation 20:4 prove it since they are all physically dead first then live again. And when they live again, there would be no battles of any kind, in any sense, that they might be involved in during the thousand years when they are reigning with Christ and that satan is still in the pit. This would be true per both Premil and Amil.
 
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BABerean2

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As to the sheep and goats judgment, the way I interpret it is vastly different than how you or others interpret it, yet I'm not alone in how I interpret it. I use the context at the end of chapter 24 and the context at the beginning of chapter 25 leading up to this judgment, in order to interpret that judgment. I simply do not see the goats representing all of the wicked lost on the planet. In context they are referring to unprofitable servants of Christ. The goats do not go into the millennial period, yet mortals do go into that period, meaning the ones in Zechariah 14:16-19, and that none of these are the goats.

And do you somehow interpret the rest of may last post to also make the Premill doctrine work, or do you just ignore it?

Does Christ really return "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God? (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10)

Is the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others really found in Revelation 11:18, or was it just my imagination?

Where in the New Testament does it say Christ will be conducting funeral services for many years after His Second Coming?

Where in the New Testament does it say wicked angels have never been bound in any manner? (Forget Jude 1:6)

Is the Book of Revelation really in chronological order, no matter what we find in Revelation 16:15-16?

Does a real chain bind Satan for 1,000 literal years, even though a real chain could not bind a demonic spirit in Mark chapter 5?

Is all of the Book of Revelation "literal", instead of symbolic?

Is the word "thousand" used in a symbolic nature in the 144,000 from the Book of Revelation?

Was Peter confused in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

.
 
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Jamdoc

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There is no such thing as the battle of Armageddon. There is no battle. There is simply a gathering together, before the Lord intervenes on behalf of His elect. So, you have been taught wrong.

It's a battle from their point of view. They're mobilizing armies against Jesus. The coming of Jesus in Revelation 19 is not marked by fire, it's Jesus on a white horse. Now, this is symbolic I'm sure, that they're killed with a sword that comes out of Jesus' mouth, but, you could say that Jesus just speaks and they all drop dead.
So revelation 19 is not coming in fire. Again, mountains of prophecy. The fiery destruction of the world? Not in Revelation 19. Revelation 20 however, does have fire from heaven destroying a multitude of people numbered as sand in the sea.. probably billions of people.

Isaiah 27:1 also describes a day of the Lord where He kills with a sword. Similar to Revelation 19.
Zephaniah on the other hand, describes a day of the Lord where he consumes the Earth in Fire, which is the one you're talking about.
We have Jesus coming on a white Horse and killing with a sword in Revelation 19
We have Fire from heaven consuming everyone in Revelation 20.
Do you see how they can actually be different events happening at different points of time but you have blurred them together because we've been viewing them through a lens thousands of years away from those events?
 
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DavidPT

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And do you somehow interpret the rest of may last post to also make the Premill doctrine work, or do you just ignore it?

Does Christ really return "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God? (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10)

Infants and some young children probably would not know God, as well as someone severally mentally challenged since birth, as a few examples. According to the way you are interpreting this verse or at least how you are expecting me to, I guess this means Christ returns in flaming fire also taking vengeance on infants and some young children, plus someone severally mentally challenged since birth.




Is the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others really found in Revelation 11:18, or was it just my imagination?

In that context it is only meaning the saved dead. If you want to think otherwise, I can't stop you. You are free to interpret it how ever you like, but that does not mean some of the rest of us have to agree with how you are interpreting it.

Where in the New Testament does it say Christ will be conducting funeral services for many years after His Second Coming?

Hmmm...Adam almost lived an entire thousand years in this present age alone, and that he was a mortal when he almost did. But somehow it's supposed to be unreasonable that mortals can live an entire thousand years and a little season post the 2nd coming, indicating that maybe no mortals even die during the thousand years, but if some do it probably wouldn't be that many to begin with.
 
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BABerean2

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In that context it is only meaning the saved dead. If you want to think otherwise, I can't stop you. You are free to interpret it how ever you like, but that does not mean some of the rest of us have to agree with how you are interpreting it.

In the passage below we find the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others.

This passage is one of several which proves the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, and you have admitted the same in the past.

Why do many try to ignore, or redefine this passage?
It is because it destroys their man-made Bible doctrines.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The text above clearly says the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God, and Christ "forever", at the 7th trumpet.
How long is forever in your opinion?


Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

In the verse above we find the time of the judgment of the dead, and "reward" for the saints, and "destruction" for others.
This agrees with what Paul said in 2 Timothy 4:1, about Christ judging both the living and the dead, at His appearing.

This passage is a vision of the Second Coming of Christ which reveals the recapitulation of visions given to John throughout the Book of Revelation.

A second witness of the recapitulation principle is Christ coming "as a thief" at Armageddon, in Revelation 16:15-16.

These passages, along with several others, kill the Premill doctrine.

.


 
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rwb

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At the end of Matthew 24, for one. Such as the following.

Matthew 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

It is silly, for instance, that an atheist, or a satanist, for example, would be saying in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming. Only a professed servant of Christ would or could be saying something like that. And look what happens to that one according to verse 51. When?

Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

As to Matthew 25:30, even though Jesus used another parable to describe this particular unprofitable servant of His, this is still meaning that unprofitable servants of His are meant in Matthew 24:48-51 as well, and that Jesus specifically deals and confronts them once Matthew 25:31-33 is being fulfilled.

Sometime ago I ran across a link where one poster pretty much summed up my understanding of the sheep and goats judgment, and expressed it better than I could. Here it is below.
---------------------------------------------------------

Goats and sheep are indistinguishable from a distance in the same way that wheat and tares are indistinguishable. Both sheep and goats are also "kosher" animals, which makes them similar. Thus this judgment is not between the righteous (believers) and wicked (unbelievers), but between the righteous (believers) and the apparent-righteous (unbelievers). In other words, the scope of this judgment is for the declared followers of the shepherd, who are ostensibly "kosher" creatures.

Ezekiel 20:33-44 appears to be the parallel account in the Hebrew Bible to this passage in Matthew, when the Lord God will one day regather his people from the nations of the world in order to be their king. That is, this regathering will be a mix of the righteous (believers) and the apparent-righteous (unbelievers). Thus he will judge his people in the "wilderness of the peoples" (Ezek 20:35). The comparison here is to the wilderness of the land of Egypt (Ezek 20:36), where the Lord had "purged" his people in order to prevent "rebels and transgressors" from entering the Promised Land. Thus the scope of judgment is limited to the declared followers of the Lord. As the shepherd he will make his people "pass under the rod" (Ezek 20:37). In this context, the goats will undergo the following.

Matthew 7:21-23 (NASB) 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’”

At the end of Matthew 25:31-46 the announcement is made: “These (goats) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous (sheep) into eternal life.” That is, the sheep are the righteous (believers) and the goats are the unrighteous (unbelievers) notwithstanding that both groups were the ostensible and therefore self-declared followers of the Lord.

The idea here is that those "believers" who love other "believers" through both their words and deeds are indeed the sheep (cf. Ja 2:15-17 and 1 Jn 3:18), whereas the remainder (the goats) are those whose spiritual gifts (which were prophesying, healing, miracles) were of no use or benefit to the sheep (hunger, thirst, nakedness, sickness, and their loneliness in incarceration) and therefore the goats were never "known" by the Lord.

Who are the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew 25?

Righteous or unrighteous is what humanity is! There is no middle ground where one is called a 'righteous believer'. Righteousness is defined as having been set apart by God, as being holy, justified in His sight. Unrighteousness is defined as the exact opposite. Just because one appears to be among the righteous of the Lord, does not mean they are believers in Christ. Judas Iscariot is a good example of this fact. Head knowledge without a change of heart. Your invention of this third group of people simply is not found in Scripture.

It is not silly, as you express it, for an unbeliever to call themselves Christian, and even to claim the name of Christ as their own. The link you posted does not support this view of some in between Christian. How could it since there is no such thing. The person you are quoting understands this and is why they say, "this judgment is not between the righteous (believers) and wicked (unbelievers), but between the righteous (believers) and the apparent-righteous (unbelievers)." In other words, the judgement is separating believers from unbelievers, or they would not have said 'apparent-righteous'. IOW this shows judgment for the righteous believers, and judgment against unrighteous unbelievers, no matter what they might appear to us.

Your invention of a third group of people, in hopes of vindicating your unbiblical doctrine is not supported by Scripture. And the passages you provide are of no help to you, because they show we are either righteous, or unrighteous in the sight of God.
 
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rwb

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It's not that I don't comprehend Amil, it's that Amil cannot logically work when testing it with a chronology of events. And I'm not meaning Revelation 19 and 20 in this case. I'm meaning the following chronology of events.

A) Initially satan is not bound, that meaning since the beginning of time until he bound a thousand years. B)Then he is bound a thousand years. C) Then he is loosed after the thousand years expires. That is the chronology of events that can't be changed.

According to Revelation 12, satan has access to heaven until a war breaks out in heaven, and that he is then cast unto the earth. Obviously, it is during A) when he still has access to heaven. We at least know from that that when he is initially bound, it is meaning after the war in heaven and after that he is cast to the earth.

Revelation 12 records him persecuting the woman once he sees he has been cast unto the earth. Revelation 12 does not instead record him being cast into the pit once he is cast out of heaven.

If we compare to Revelation 20:1-3, first an angel comes down from heaven, then lays hold of satan and binds him a thousand years by casting him into the pit for the duration of the thousand years. Where does it show or even hint of anything like that in Revelation 12? It doesn't matter whether that is literal or not, there is still the imagery that has to be considered, and that nowhere in all of Revelation 12 is there even a hint of imagery matching this.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Can you point out in these two verses where it is depicting an angel coming down from heaven, then laying hold of satan, thus binding him a thousand years by casting him into the pit? The fact an angel has to come down from heaven and do this is at least telling us that satan has to be on the earth at the time. And that's exactly where the text in Revelation 12 places him once he has been cast out of heaven.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

What about in any of these verses? Can you point out in these verses where it is depicting an angel coming down from heaven, then laying hold of satan, thus binding him a thousand years by casting him into the pit?

If you can't show this imagery depicted in Revelation 20:1-3 among any of these verses, and that prior to these verses satan still had access to heaven, aren't you being unreasonable by insisting the thousand years fit the past 2000 years, even though you can't even show it in the texts per Revelation 12, where these texts involve the very same 2000 years you claim the 1000 years fit?

You're forcing Satan's casting out of heaven, and his binding to be the same time, but they are not. Satan is cast out of heaven, according to Rev 12 at the birth of Christ. But he is not bound until the cross of Christ. In between these two events Satan is filled with anger, because he knows he has only a short time after he is cast to the earth to himself wage war against Christ, before Christ establishes His universal Church on earth with mighty power of His Gospel and the Holy Spirit. For that is when Satan's powers will be mightily diminished. It is when Christ makes His earthly appearance claiming to be The Messiah that He begins to cast out devils/demons before going to the cross and defeating Satan, and taking captive all the Old Covenant faithful saints that Satan was holding in death (Abraham's bosom).

When it was observed that Christ had power to cast out the devil, people were amazed, because there had never before been anything like this.

Matthew 9:33 (KJV) And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel.

The judgment of Satan after he was cast out of heaven was not until Christ became a man, and began to declare the prophesy was fulfilled through Him. Then His powers and might were put on display for all to see, and to know that judgment against Satan would be made known as Christ and His disciples went about casting out devils/demons in Christ's most holy name.

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Joh 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Then when Christ gained victory over Satan by His cross and resurrection, Satan's power was diminished because death could not hold Him, and He went into the abode of Satan (the grave), and took captivity captive by binding the strong man (Satan) and casting him into the pit (grave; place of the dead), and held him with a great chain that he could deceive the nations no more. Now the Gospel sent in the power of the Holy Spirit will build the Kingdom of God as mankind in all the nations of the earth hear the Gospel and by grace through faith believe.

Heb 2:14 ¶ Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

2 Timothy 1:10 (KJV) But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Mt 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Mt 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
 
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rwb

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There would be no battle going on, in any sense, during the thousand years while satan is in the pit. Any battles going on, in any sense, would be taking place before and after he is out of the pit. The martyred saints in Revelation 20:4 prove it since they are all physically dead first then live again. And when they live again, there would be no battles of any kind, in any sense, that they might be involved in during the thousand years when they are reigning with Christ and that satan is still in the pit. This would be true per both Premil and Amil.

Scripture certainly gives the impression that a great spiritual battle is being waged in this earth as the Gospel is being proclaimed unto all the earth. There won't be anymore battles when the thousand years expire, because the Kingdom of God will be complete, and every unbeliever destroyed forever.
 
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sovereigngrace

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It's a battle from their point of view. They're mobilizing armies against Jesus. The coming of Jesus in Revelation 19 is not marked by fire, it's Jesus on a white horse. Now, this is symbolic I'm sure, that they're killed with a sword that comes out of Jesus' mouth, but, you could say that Jesus just speaks and they all drop dead.
So revelation 19 is not coming in fire. Again, mountains of prophecy. The fiery destruction of the world? Not in Revelation 19. Revelation 20 however, does have fire from heaven destroying a multitude of people numbered as sand in the sea.. probably billions of people.

Isaiah 27:1 also describes a day of the Lord where He kills with a sword. Similar to Revelation 19.
Zephaniah on the other hand, describes a day of the Lord where he consumes the Earth in Fire, which is the one you're talking about.
We have Jesus coming on a white Horse and killing with a sword in Revelation 19
We have Fire from heaven consuming everyone in Revelation 20.
Do you see how they can actually be different events happening at different points of time but you have blurred them together because we've been viewing them through a lens thousands of years away from those events?

Before I answer, which text in Zephaniah are you talking about?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Infants and some young children probably would not know God, as well as someone severally mentally challenged since birth, as a few examples. According to the way you are interpreting this verse or at least how you are expecting me to, I guess this means Christ returns in flaming fire also taking vengeance on infants and some young children, plus someone severally mentally challenged since birth.

You have made this argument before. The only problem is, you haven't ever been able to show me Scripture that teaches that babies or severally mentally handicapped individuals miss the catching away and are left behind to enter a future millennial kingdom. Moreover, I can't find anything in the Word that would remotely support such a claim. Nothing! Maybe you can address these questions.

As the destruction of Noah’s day is given as a powerful picture of the second coming, how many children or severally mentally handicapped individuals were locked outside the ark below the age of accountability at the time of the flood survived?

As the destruction of Sodom is given as an accurate picture of the second coming, how many children or severally mentally handicapped individuals that were left in Sodom below the age of accountability at the time of the fiery destruction in Sodom survived?

If Christ can accept children who have died before the age of accountability throughout all ages, without them making mortal decisions for Him, why should those living at the time of the Second Advent be dealt with any differently?

Are you then saying that the population of the “Premillennial kingdom” is mainly composed of little children who are exempt from being raptured because they are not good enough, but are also, equally, exempt from destruction because they are not wicked enough?
 
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Jamdoc

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Before I answer, which text in Zephaniah are you talking about?

Oh just language like this.
Zephaniah 1:2-3
I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith the Lord.
I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumbling blocks with the wicked: and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the Lord.
and continuing through to Zephaniah 1:18
Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
I mean the whole book is mostly about the Day of the Lord and an apocalyptic judgement with fire consuming the entire world.
Zephaniah 3:8
Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the Lord, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

I see this happening after the 1000 years in Revelation 20:7-9
Note how it goes from consuming people that numbered as sand of the sea.. you know, an uncountable number of people, in fire from heaven..
then Satan thrown into the lake of fire. Then white throne of Judgement.
THAT is the last day, and it's like the apocalyptic judgement in Zephaniah, very sudden and final, where the return of Jesus in Revelation 19 has a different tone to it, where the people are slain by the sword which comes from Jesus' mouth, and then carrion birds pick apart their corpses. That's not destruction of the whole world by fire. That's a bunch of people being killed and then the animals on the earth continuing to do stuff after that.
But after Gog and Magog? It jumps right to the Throne of Judgement, because the earth has been destroyed in fire.
Do you see how they are different events yet?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Oh just language like this.
Zephaniah 1:2-3

and continuing through to Zephaniah 1:18

I mean the whole book is mostly about the Day of the Lord and an apocalyptic judgement with fire consuming the entire world.
Zephaniah 3:8


I see this happening after the 1000 years in Revelation 20:7-9
Note how it goes from consuming people that numbered as sand of the sea.. you know, an uncountable number of people, in fire from heaven..
then Satan thrown into the lake of fire. Then white throne of Judgement.
THAT is the last day, and it's like the apocalyptic judgement in Zephaniah, very sudden and final, where the return of Jesus in Revelation 19 has a different tone to it, where the people are slain by the sword which comes from Jesus' mouth, and then carrion birds pick apart their corpses. That's not destruction of the whole world by fire. That's a bunch of people being killed and then the animals on the earth continuing to do stuff after that.
But after Gog and Magog? It jumps right to the Throne of Judgement, because the earth has been destroyed in fire.
Do you see how they are different events yet?

No, I do not. Jesus is coming to remove all corruption and make all things new. The involves the regeneration of this current sin-cursed earth and the removal of the wicked and all wickedness.

Zephaniah 1:2-18 says, I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith the LORD. I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD. I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the priests; And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the LORD, and that swear by Malcham; And them that are turned back from the LORD; and those that have not sought the LORD, nor inquired for him. Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests. And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD's sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.”

It continues: “In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold, which fill their masters' houses with violence and deceit. And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate, and an howling from the second, and a great crashing from the hills. Howl, ye inhabitants of Maktesh, for all the merchant people are cut down; all they that bear silver are cut off. And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil. Therefore their goods shall become a booty, and their houses a desolation: they shall also build houses, but not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof. The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.”

Zephaniah 3:8-9 states: wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.”
 
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7xlightray

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Like I said: the king come with His kingdom and then ascended to take David's throne after His victorious earthly ministry. Listen to Christ’s response to Pilate’s question in John 18:36-37. Pilate asked: “Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”

While Jesus did not come and meet the religious Jews faulty expectation of a physical territorial kingdom where the Messiah would reign over physical Israel and subjugate the Gentile nations. He did come as a spiritual king reigning over a spiritual kingdom.

Israel’s king has already come, and introduced His heavenly kingdom.
That's Canaan where God by Joshua removed seven nations of the Gentiles, and David killed Goliath the giant, but were talking about Joseph being sold by his brothers, then handed over to the Egyptians, falsely accused and put in prison, then rising to the throne, ruling in that nation.

But to reply to your passage:

Yes, the kingdom inside, and that is now, but He also spoke Luke 17:22-24 and Matthew 25:31-32 (sit on his throne..as the shepherd separates with Revelation 2:26-27 (is speaking to those that overcome, he will rule [= shepherd] them with a rod of iron) and Revelation 20:4 (thrones and they sat on them and judgment was given to them (this after Christ comes as also stated in Matthew 19:28))). They also asked Acts 1:6-7, because Matthew 19:27-28 and Luke 22:28-30.

Is Christ ruling now with a rod of iron, till His enemies are made His footstool?
If we are going to rule (= shepherd them) with a rod of iron, just as Christ also was given, and the world is absolutely perfect in glory after He comes, what is the iron rod for, and who would this apply to then "as the vessels of the potter are broken to shivers"? We certainly are not ruling as such now (1 Corinthians 4:8).

And..
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence [speaking of this realm].
..yet, do you not believe Jesus will come back and fight His enemies of flesh?
 
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sovereigngrace

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That's Canaan where God by Joshua removed seven nations of the Gentiles, and David killed Goliath the giant, but were talking about Joseph being sold by his brothers, then handed over to the Egyptians, falsely accused and put in prison, then rising to the throne, ruling in that nation.

But to reply to your passage:

Yes, the kingdom inside, and that is now, but He also spoke Luke 17:22-24 and Matthew 25:31-32 (sit on his throne..as the shepherd separates with Revelation 2:26-27 (is speaking to those that overcome, he will rule [= shepherd] them with a rod of iron) and Revelation 20:4 (thrones and they sat on them and judgment was given to them (this after Christ comes as also stated in Matthew 19:28))). They also asked Acts 1:6-7, because Matthew 19:27-28 and Luke 22:28-30.

Is Christ ruling now with a rod of iron, till His enemies are made His footstool?
If we are going to rule (= shepherd them) with a rod of iron, just as Christ also was given, and the world is absolutely perfect in glory after He comes, what is the iron rod for, and who would this apply to then "as the vessels of the potter are broken to shivers"? We certainly are not ruling as such now (1 Corinthians 4:8).

And..
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence [speaking of this realm].
..yet, do you not believe Jesus will come back and fight His enemies of flesh?

Revelation 19:11-16: And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

In this narrative He comes as the Lord of glory and removes all evil with the power of His Word. He returns as a man of war to destroy all those left behind. Revelation 19:11 says, in righteousness he doth judge and make war.” The imagery surrounding Christ in this reading is that of wrath and judgment. The nations have missed their day of opportunity like the wicked in previous judgments, now they must face their deserved recompense of destruction and eternal punishment. Christ comes in glory and power to pour out wrath, and we learn "His eyes were as a flame of fire.” Here we see the indignation that Christ has for these enemies of God upon the earth. Those that are left behind of the nations – without exception – are trampled into a lost eternity on this moment of time.

The solemn language relates to the wrath of God being poured out on those left behind at the Coming of Christ. This proves that “the nations” will not survive the wrath that emanates from Christ. How can any nation survive this closing destruction? This is final justice being meted out of the lost.

“Smite (or patasso) the nations.”

Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury witha sharp swordthat comes out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

The Old Testament prophet Isaiah predicted in Isaiah 13:13: “I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.”

What sword?

Isaiah 26:21 adds: “For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.”

Earlier in Revelation 2:16, we find Jesus predicting: “I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.”

Christ is not coming as Saviour of the world at the end but as its Judge. This is a solemn day for the wicked. Here we see the great final battle of the ages between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. On one side on earth you have the wicked confederacy of the beast’s armies on earth (namely all the wicked) arrayed against the armies of heaven (appearing in the sky) which relates to the people of God that are redeemed.

There are clearly two opposing armies in view here in this reading: the army of God, led by Christ, and the army of Satan. One is totally victorious; the other one is totally annihilated. This is talking about two kingdoms that are at war - the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. This is consistent with repeated Scripture.

There are only 2 peoples on this earth in God's eyes - the redeemed and the wicked. These both are armies in conflict with each other. When Jesus returns the elect are caught up, the wicked are destroyed. These 2 peoples/armies carry one of 2 marks - God's mark or the world's mark of reprobation. This is a book full of symbolism denoting the great battle between light and darkness. There are only two different peoples in this life, they are walking two different roads, in two different directions, to two different destinations. The Christian is bound for heaven; the sinner is bound for hell. One group has the mark of the Father the other the mark of the beast. One is rescued in the marriage of the lamb, the other is destroyed.

The army of heaven (embodying the redeemed of all ages) returns after being caught up for the marriage of the lamb, leaving just one army on earth – the wicked. That is why this passage makes clear that this ‘left behind’ army is totally destroyed. This clearly rebuts Premil and forbids it. It leaves no goats left to saturate its millennium. Revelation 19:19 describes the righteous redeemed army, which includes the elect of all time (those that possess the spiritual robes of Christ's righteousness). It is this company that is rescued by Christ before He pours out His wrath upon the wicked. This will be like the destruction of the wicked in Noah and Lot’s day. The world was destroyed by water in Noah’s day and Sodom was obliterated by fire in his day.

Let us be clear: He is coming to smite down the nations, not corral them into some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted thousand-years age. It says that “he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” This is not a pretty sight. This is not loose talk by God. This is not something that the nations should look forward to. What awaits the nations that have rejected Christ is utter destruction and devastation. The nations left behind are totally destroyed. Christ destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth.

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

Revelation 2:25-27 says, “that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule (poimaino) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be ‘broken to shivers’ (suntribo): even as I received of my Father.”

The concluding phrase (“shall they be broken to shivers”) is actually taken from the lone Greek word suntribo (Strong’s 4937) meaning to crush completely, i.e. to shatter. This would suggest a total obliteration of the wicked at His appearing.

We cannot ignore the crucial words suntribo (to break to shivers) in Revelation 2:25-27 and patasso (to smite) in Revelation 19:15.

The same Shepherd who will comfort His sheep (the elect) will also destroy the goats (the wicked). This teaching is taken from Psalm 2:1-12. See what it is saying: “Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.Thou shalt break (ra` a`) them with a rod of iron; ‘thou shalt dash them in pieces’ (naphats) like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”

Why do you also ignore the Hebrew here? The Hebrew word ra` a` means to spoil: literally, by breaking to pieces; figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing. The Hebrew word naphats here derives from a primitive root; to dash to pieces, or scatter.

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with NO ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have rejected Him. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

The Lord encounters only 2 types of people when He comes – saved or lost, sheep or goats. The sheep enter into their eternal inheritance; the goats receive their eternal punishment. Nothing could be simpler. You invent some 3rd group of humans that are too righteous to be destroyed at the second coming, yet too wicked to be rescued, yet Premil argue among themselves who they actually are. The reality is: they don't exist.

Nowhere in any of these passages is there any insinuation of a 1,000 years shepherding (or ruling) over the nations -as Premil alleges. What is more, Nowhere in Rev 20 is there any mention of (1) a rod of iron, (2) Christ on earth, (3) and therefore Christ ruling on earth with a rod of iron for 1,000 years. You will only find that in the Premil textbooks.
 
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Jamdoc

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No, I do not. Jesus is coming to remove all corruption and make all things new. The involves the regeneration of this current sin-cursed earth and the removal of the wicked and all wickedness.

Zephaniah 1:2-18 says, I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith the LORD. I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD. I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the priests; And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the LORD, and that swear by Malcham; And them that are turned back from the LORD; and those that have not sought the LORD, nor inquired for him. Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests. And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD's sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.”

It continues: “In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold, which fill their masters' houses with violence and deceit. And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate, and an howling from the second, and a great crashing from the hills. Howl, ye inhabitants of Maktesh, for all the merchant people are cut down; all they that bear silver are cut off. And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil. Therefore their goods shall become a booty, and their houses a desolation: they shall also build houses, but not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof. The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.”

Zephaniah 3:8-9 states: wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.”

Yes.. that's a time in the bible where He's describing consuming the entire planet in fire.
That does not line up with how Jesus returns in revelation 19. Not at all.
Are you going to spiritualize those to meaningless too in order to force them to be the same event?
 
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Jamdoc

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Okay since I see a lot of talk about this 'too good to be destroyed but not good enough for the rapture business' that's not what the millennium is about. It's because after the rapture there are 144,000 people and 2 witnesses in Israel preaching the Gospel. God is so loving and so merciful, that He is even giving a chance for people to come to His grace even after the rapture. It necessitates a second resurrection after the rapture that allows for some who were saved after the rapture to get eternal life, while the rest get the second death.
As for the millennial reign, why it exists and why so long? That's a mystery, that only God knows for sure, but I have a guess. It is just an opinion however, just a guess.
First we had Adam and Eve, immortal, sinless, in a paradise. Then there's the fall and the curse, but people still lived long lifespans, and were vegetarians still. Then there was the flood, people's lifespans shortened, and they began to eat flesh. We're still in that post flood earth today. I believe the Millennium restores things to pre flood conditions environmentally, and biologically, with everything going back to being herbivores, and long lifespans, before culminating in a return to immortality, sinlessness, and a paradise. It's symmetry. God has shown a liking of order and symbolism, like the number 7 constantly being used in scripture.
Also providing symmetry is that what took us out of Eden was a first act of rebellion guided by Satan. Directly preceeding the return to Paradise is a last act of rebellion, guided by Satan.

But if God isn't giving people a second chance to repent during the wrath of God after the rapture, what's the point of the 144,000 and the 2 witnesses?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Okay since I see a lot of talk about this 'too good to be destroyed but not good enough for the rapture business' that's not what the millennium is about. It's because after the rapture there are 144,000 people and 2 witnesses in Israel preaching the Gospel. God is so loving and so merciful, that He is even giving a chance for people to come to His grace even after the rapture. It necessitates a second resurrection after the rapture that allows for some who were saved after the rapture to get eternal life, while the rest get the second death.
As for the millennial reign, why it exists and why so long? That's a mystery, that only God knows for sure, but I have a guess. It is just an opinion however, just a guess.
First we had Adam and Eve, immortal, sinless, in a paradise. Then there's the fall and the curse, but people still lived long lifespans, and were vegetarians still. Then there was the flood, people's lifespans shortened, and they began to eat flesh. We're still in that post flood earth today. I believe the Millennium restores things to pre flood conditions environmentally, and biologically, with everything going back to being herbivores, and long lifespans, before culminating in a return to immortality, sinlessness, and a paradise. It's symmetry. God has shown a liking of order and symbolism, like the number 7 constantly being used in scripture.
Also providing symmetry is that what took us out of Eden was a first act of rebellion guided by Satan. Directly preceeding the return to Paradise is a last act of rebellion, guided by Satan.

But if God isn't giving people a second chance to repent during the wrath of God after the rapture, what's the point of the 144,000 and the 2 witnesses?

The Premil kingdom is not at all pristine and Eden-like. That is the Amil "new earth." Premils cannot decide whether their alleged future millennium is corrupt or pristine, whether it is the new heavens and new earth or whether it is a rerun of our age.

The Premil new earth is full of sin, sinners, death, widespread deception and feigned worship. It has Christ deceived by multiple millions of charlatans making their way to Jerusalem to watch the slitting of throats of goats and lambs for sin futile useless offerings. We then see the wholesale millennial evangelistic bust when Satan at the drop of the hat claims the millennial inhabitants for himself (as the sand of the sea)? This whole proposal is a massive sham.

Peter speaking to the religious Jews in Acts 3:19-21 confirms the concluding nature of the Second Advent, saying, “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he (God) shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution (apokatastasis or reconstitution) of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”

The Jews to whom Peter was addressing knew the “restitution of all things” meant a re-creation of the world which would restore it to an Eden-like, pre-flood, condition with the curse removed. Premillenialism doesn’t allow this. This school of thought holds to a new earth blighted by all the various evils of the curse and scared by increasing violence which mirrors our sin-cursed age. In the end the Premil millennium ends up in anarchy, the saints being finally surrounded by the wicked as the sand of the sea. Iniquity has prospered in an age supposedly governed by Christ with an iron rod. This just doesn’t add up.

There is a BIG difference between how Amils interpret Revelation 20 and what Premils attribute to it. In fact, it is day-and-night. You see your millennial age as some type of perfect or semi-perfect glorified or semi-glorified state with Christ and the saints reigning in their glorified bodies (even though you cannot find it in the text). Amils see it as this current imperfect age on this current corrupt earth.

Despite the glory, supposed personal rule of Christ on earth and the so-called submissiveness of the nations that Premils attribute to their millennial kingdom, surely we are looking at the biggest religious turn-around in history in the Premil scenario – with the swift overthrow of the majestic unchallenged sovereign righteous rule of Christ on a semi-glorified earth with a “rod of iron” overturned which the en-mass desertion of billions of millennial inhabitants to Satan in the greatest global uprising in history from the four corners of the earth as “the sand of the sea” against the “camp of the saints”?

This purported millennium of bliss of submissiveness that Premils try to portray ends up an unmitigated debacle. Amils and Postmils look forward to eternal bliss at the second coming. Creation will be finally purged of wickedness, all the wicked, rebellion and all corruption forever.
 
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keras

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Yes.. that's a time in the bible where He's describing consuming the entire planet in fire.
That does not line up with how Jesus returns in revelation 19. Not at all.
Are you going to spiritualize those to meaningless too in order to force them to be the same event?
Can't people see that what is prophesied by Zephaniah, is the Day of the Lords fiery wrath; the Sixth seal event? Which must be at least 7 to 10 years before Jesus Returns.
Jesus does NOT Return in fire. He merely destroys the attacking armies at Armageddon by the Sword of His Word.
 
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DavidPT

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Can't people see that what is prophesied by Zephaniah, is the Day of the Lords fiery wrath; the Sixth seal event? Which must be at least 7 to 10 years before Jesus Returns.
Jesus does NOT Return in fire. He merely destroys the attacking armies at Armageddon by the Sword of His Word.



As to the 6th seal event, regardless whether on not what is prophesied by Zephaniah fits there, is what you conclude here that is in question----"the Day of the Lords fiery wrath; the Sixth seal event? Which must be at least 7 to 10 years before Jesus Returns".

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What I have underlined in verse 29 is meaning during the 6th seal events. The coming in verse 30 is meaning the 2nd coming. I'm not arguing against there being a gap between what I have underlined and the coming in verse 30. But why should one think that gap might be at least 7 to 10 years?

In verse 29 the tribulation of those days would be meaning the 42 month reign of the beast, the 2nd half of the 70th week. Why would there still be another 7-10 years after the conclusion of the 70th week?
 
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