coastie

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26th March 2003 at 09:50 PM Mr Buddhist said this in Post #18



Desire comes from being alive.


You're going to need to expand on that. Trees are alive, do they have desires.

Is hunger considered desire? Is wanting to stay alive desire?

Unless you ascend to Nirvana it goes with you to your next life.

So you are saying that all living beings have desire and/or consciousness and personality?

Only through Nirvana can you fully escape desire, Nirvana being your only desire before you reach it. Unless you achieve Nirvana in life, where you are free of all worldly desires.

I understand this, but that doesn't really answer my question.

You desire to reach Nirvana, otherwise, you'd never try. If to escape all desire is to reach Nirvana; basically, you have to not desire anything, (including Nirvana) to reach Nirvana.

It just seems to me that Nirvana is a paradox and that one would surely die before ever reaching it.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to criticise or offend.

Thank you. :)
 
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feral

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i love the idea of reincarnation..just love it, i guess because i would like to redo some things or try again and don't like the idea of eternal afterlife. other then that though, i know quite little about buddhism. what are the theories, beliefs and practices?
 
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Today at 07:27 PM feral said this in Post #23
i love the idea of reincarnation..just love it, i guess because i would like to redo some things or try again and don't like the idea of eternal afterlife.

Does that mean that you do not really believe the Holy Bible? Reincarnation and judgement in the after life are mutually exclusive.

Here's what Guatama Buddha discovered through his meditation:
The Four Noble Truths 1) The first noble truth is that life is frustrating and painful. 2)The second noble truth is that suffering has a cause. 3) The third noble truth is that the cause of suffering can be ended. 4) The fourth noble truth is that the way, or path to end the cause of suffering is meditation.

Notice that everything has to do with this life, there is no talk about the life to come.  So for this life, here is what he recommended (this is similar to the righteousness of the Law of Moses): The Eightfold Path wich includes  Right view, Right intention, Right discipline, involves a kind of renunciation, Right livelihood, Right effort, Right mindfulness (precision and clarity), Right concentration, or absorption, and the Goal: Nirvana, which simply means cessation. It is the cessation of passion, aggression and ignorance; the cessation of the struggle to prove our existence to the world, to survive.

The only problem is that Buddha had no concept of the seriousness of sin, because he had no concept of the holiness of God, or even the concept of a living God who judges all mankind after death.  Christ came to reveal the grace of God and also to reveal the Truth -- about sin, about man, about judgement, about salvation. *The Law was given by Moses, Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ* (John 1:17).

If Buddha had met Christ, the dialogue with Buddha would match the dialogue with Nicodemus, a noted Rabbi and teacher of Israel (see John 3:1-21).  It would also match the teaching which John the Baptist gave his disciples regarding Christ (John 3:22-36). Jesus of Nazareth is GOD manifest in the flesh. Gautama Buddha was a mere man who wanted to do and teach the right way without bringing God into the picture.
 
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Mr Buddhist

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Yesterday at 02:35 PM Ezra said this in Post #20



The real issue, Mr. Buddhist, is that God has revealed the existence of a literal Lake of Fire.&nbsp; Reincarnation simply goes around this, and as long as you remain outside Chirst, you have no hope of avoiding it.

Also, was Buddha a man?&nbsp; Yes

Is he idolized and venerated as a "god"? Yes

Does that violate the First and Greatest Commandment? Yes

Does that make Buddhists idolators?&nbsp; Yes

So where do you go from there?&nbsp; The only remedy God has provided is Christ, His cross, His blood, His righteousness, His resurrection, and His salvation: "NEITHER IS THERE SALVATION IN ANY OTHER: FOR THERE IS NONE OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN GIVEN AMONG MEN, WHEREBY WE MUST BE SAVED" (Acts 4:12). As Buddha would say, "Choose wisely".

You believe that because you are&nbsp;Christian, I on the other hand do not.

Gautama Buddha was a mere man who wanted to do and teach the right way without bringing God into the picture.

If you are a Buddhist you believe Guatama was more than a man, his spirit had gone through thoud\sands of other incarnations before he was born as Guatama. Buddhism does have spirit beings and "gods", but they die after an, albeit massive, lifespan.

&nbsp;
So you are saying that all living beings have desire and/or consciousness and personality?

I suppose I am, I believe that. (This is gonna sound dumb.) My two rabbits have quite distinct personalities. Their desires are simpler though, to dig a whole or to mate. We may call these instincts I suppose.

Your question about Nirvana,&nbsp;I think Ezra explained Nirvana better than I can.
 
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coastie

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Yesterday at 08:11 PM Mr Buddhist said this in Post #25

I suppose I am, I believe that. (This is gonna sound dumb.) My two rabbits have quite distinct personalities. Their desires are simpler though, to dig a whole or to mate. We may call these instincts I suppose.


LOL. I totally agree, my dog has quite a personality too. But there are organisms that you could be reincarnated as that do not show any signs of personality (i.e. earth worms, blackberry bushes)

If instinct and desire are synonomous, that means that the instinct to stay alive, to find food, to gain wisdom all must be escaped from.

Your question about Nirvana,&nbsp;I think Ezra explained Nirvana better than I can.

Ezra did an excellent job with their post, but didn't explain the paradox. Instead, Ezra confirms my questions.

If my question confuses you, I can try and word it a different way.

here it is again...

You desire to reach Nirvana, otherwise, you'd never try. If to escape all desire is to reach Nirvana; basically, you have to not desire anything, (including Nirvana) to reach Nirvana. How is this possible?

This is one of the parts of the philosophy that I just can't get passed.


The following question is a little less intellectual, but say that you are reincaranted as a redwood tree. You'll live to be something like 1 or 2 thousand years old. Since you really can't seek to reach Nirvana when you're a tree, that would really set you back, or would it?
 
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Arikay

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Im not a buddhist, but.

That question makes me think of the Zen buddhism type things. You know, the questions that either dont make any sense or are circular and stuff. :)

Generally though, I dont think life giving substances are counted in the instinct and desire category, at least at first.

It reminds me of why I shouldnt drink water. Since its poisonous. After all, everyone who drinks water dies. ;) :D

The thing though, is we dont know much about redwood trees. For all we know, they could be one of the finals steps, for some people, to nirvana. :)

Today at 06:44 AM coastie said this in Post #26



LOL. I totally agree, my dog has quite a personality too. But there are organisms that you could be reincarnated as that do not show any signs of personality (i.e. earth worms, blackberry bushes)

If instinct and desire are synonomous, that means that the instinct to stay alive, to find food, to gain wisdom all must be escaped from.



Ezra did an excellent job with their post, but didn't explain the paradox. Instead, Ezra confirms my questions.

If my question confuses you, I can try and word it a different way.

here it is again...

You desire to reach Nirvana, otherwise, you'd never try. If to escape all desire is to reach Nirvana; basically, you have to not desire anything, (including Nirvana) to reach Nirvana. How is this possible?

This is one of the parts of the philosophy that I just can't get passed.


The following question is a little less intellectual, but say that you are reincaranted as a redwood tree. You'll live to be something like 1 or 2 thousand years old. Since you really can't seek to reach Nirvana when you're a tree, that would really set you back, or would it?
 
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That question makes me think of the Zen buddhism type things. You know, the questions that either dont make any sense or are circular and stuff.

I think they are called "Koans". One that comes top mind is, "What is the sound of one hand clapping".



You desire to reach Nirvana, otherwise, you'd never try. If to escape all desire is to reach Nirvana; basically, you have to not desire anything, (including Nirvana) to reach Nirvana. How is this possible?

That is a good question. One has to desire to be desireless in the first place.



how can achieving emptiness, by cutting off all ties to family (for example), help in any ways?

I know the Buddha left his wife and child in order to find the solution to suffering. The following is something I rad in a book on Buddhism that is from the Pali Canon:



Like Siddhartha, Sangamaji had left his wife and family to search for truth as a homeless wanderer. While sitting in meditation beneath a tree, his wife approached him and lay their child before him. She asked her husband to nourish her and their child. Sangamaji remained silent until finally the woman took the child and left. Siddhartha, after observing this incident, reportedly commented, He [Sangamaji] feels no pleasure when she comes, no sorrow when she goes: a true Brahman released from passion
 
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Mr Buddhist

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You desire to reach Nirvana, otherwise, you'd never try. If to escape all desire is to reach Nirvana; basically, you have to not desire anything, (including Nirvana) to reach Nirvana. How is this possible?

Nirvana&nbsp;is cessation of desire, it is the only way you can truly escape desire, so to escape desire you have to desire Nirvana. To do that you have to follow the eightfold path, four noble truths etc.

That's the best way I can explain it, if you still don't think it's right, fair enough.

&nbsp;
The following question is a little less intellectual, but say that you are reincaranted as a redwood tree. You'll live to be something like 1 or 2 thousand years old. Since you really can't seek to reach Nirvana when you're a tree, that would really set you back, or would it?

Trees could have&nbsp;a personality, I've never spoken to one to find out. They speak to each other through chemical signals etc (sort of). The truth is, I don't know, I've never studied that sort of thing in depth.

If instinct and desire are synonomous, that means that the instinct to stay alive, to find food, to gain wisdom all must be escaped from.

I was a bit rash to say that, just thinking out loud I suppose.
 
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pace

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27th March 2003 at 01:07 AM Mr Buddhist said this in Post #12

As I said, Buddha believed ALL suffering (including sin IMO) came from desire.

As far as I've understood and read,&nbsp;All Suffering&nbsp;comes from trying to seperate yourself from the Whole World, putting yourself as an utterly individual from the rest of the existance. Not from desire. But I suppose it might as well be different from which branch in buddhism you want to take, since there are many around.&nbsp;Thus true for certain buddhist styles, although I have little to no idea where they practice the different buddhist styles.
 
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Yesterday at 04:18 PM feral said this in Post #31
ezra...no, i do not believe in the bible and i am not a christian. agnostic is the best descriptive term...*the questioner*...not quite atheist because i'm not that firm in my beliefs.

If you are *not that firm in your beliefs*&nbsp;you will notice that all religions (Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Sikhism, what ever) can be grouped together as religioun teaching their adherents to DO CERTAIN THINGS AND DON'T DO CERTAIN THINGS. They all expect that somehow, whether in one lifetime or a million lifetimes, they will be able to outbalance the evil within them by their good deeds and good works and obedience to days, and months and times and years.

When you come to the Gospel and the Lord Jesus Christ, the first words out of His mouth in His public ministry are: *REPENT: FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AT HAND* (Matthew 4:17).

Why did the Lord immediately say repent?&nbsp; Because only the Bible teaches that there is none righteous, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and all our righteousnesses are as *filthy rags*.&nbsp; Jesus also said *Be ye perfect , even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect* (Matt.5:48).

So the real issue is, how can you and I become PERFECT? Impossible.&nbsp; Therefore God offers to all&nbsp;who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ His own perfection -- His own righteousness. He *imputes* it to the believer, which means He puts it into your *spiritual bank account* the moment you acknowledge you are a sinner and all your righteousness will never make you as perfect as God. At the same time, Christ's death on the cross, and the blood which He shed for our redemption, opens the way for God to forgive all your sins and to cover you with His own righteousness. This happens the moment you go to God in simple faith and tell Him *I believe with all my heart that you have provided a way into heaven through Christ's blood and through His righteousness. Therefore I receive you, Lord Jesus, as my Lord and Saviour today*. No *religion* on earth can give you this perfection, which God through Christ gives you as a GIFT.&nbsp; This is the GIFT of eternal life (John 3:16).
 
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pace

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29th March 2003 at 03:44 PM coastie said this in Post #26





You desire to reach Nirvana, otherwise, you'd never try. If to escape all desire is to reach Nirvana; basically, you have to not desire anything, (including Nirvana) to reach Nirvana. How is this possible?&nbsp;


By, The Blessed One:


how can achieving emptiness, by cutting off all ties to family (for example), help in any way?

I think I'll just copy &amp; paste my buddhist explanation over here:

&nbsp;

Let me read from my Philosophy History by Arne Naess:

One is not in doubt Gotama Buddha was an historical character who lived from aboutly 563-483 B.C. (read somewhere else for his life )

In the history of philosophy the expression -buddhism- doesn't stand for one certain, limited belief, but with many strongly branched directions in religion and philosophy. An essential things they have in common is that they all point back to G. Buddha as their founder. The many structures has in different countries and in different times shown a very different image.

There are certain points in buddhism which has certain philosophical interests:

1. Everything, without exception, is passing. This also goes for souls, spirits or godlike creations.

2. The world is more defined by actions(processes) rather than things(substances). All change happens with amalgamation(integration) and desintegration through law-abiding means. The World as understood by change lasts forever. There is no thing that happened first.

3. The Illution of Self. The human is no permanent I. The feeling of an absolute dividation between The I/Self and the rest of the world is an illusion: There exist nothing other than temporary fleeting connections between all the different elements that constantly makes up the human personae.

4. All suffering comes from a deep surging drive trying to seperate your own self as much as possible from the rest of the world. Every splitting such as this, drives towards suffering because nothing is permanent, and every positioning the human is seeking as to feel permanent, divided from all, will cease to exist. And as such, should the tendency to go towards independendtly individual excistance, be fought against as much as possible. Nirvana is the name when you manage to free yourself completely from the illusion of total independent self. Later on, it seemingly went towards being more pessimistic, especially the direction which was grounded by strongly ascetic monks.

5. The Illution of Self is being fought neither by life in pleasure nor in self torment. The correct path goes through insight(through the points 1-4 and their deepening), and actions according with this insight. This&nbsp; include kindness, openess, love for truth, and peacefullness. The demand to take no life, is implicit. One shall refrain from kill or harm anything that's alive.(Humurous comment by Naess: On Buddhas time, the absence of a microscope made this difficult)

&nbsp;

It seems like G. Buddha put great weight upon good conduct of life as sign that you had understood your Self. Later traditions shall have removed themself from the eldest tradition and put more weight upon theoretical knowledge and on the outer techniques of meditation(yoga as technique). And as such, it became a more dividation between the professional trained buddhists, and 'amateur' buddhists. The first ones moved towards being ascetics monks, which you can find today in Tibet and Himalaya.

Buddhism is today counted as an religion, even though it has no definition of God.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - The History of Philosophy, Arne Naess (2001) (~Translated by pace~).


It sounds like a very sensible religion to me.
 
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Aradia

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I know that this thread is somewhat old, but I had to reply to a couple of things that I believe weren't properly explained. Let me say, however, that buddhism is similar to christianity in that there are many denominations, or schools of thought. The major three forms in buddhism are Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana. Within each of these are more schools of buddhism. Vajrayana is 'tibetan buddhism', and is the most 'mystical' (if you will) of the schools. Mahayana includes things like Zen (in Japan), Ch'an (in China), and others, and is not as 'mystical' as Vajrayana but does add to the belief system believed to be the closest to the buddha's own teachings: Theravada. This is not to say that the others are better or worse, just different. Theravada teaches only what the buddha taught, whereas other schools teach things that other people taught as well. I consider myself, for the record, to be closest to Theravadin, and that is where my point of view comes from. Now for the replies:

Mr Buddhist: "Desire comes from being alive."

No, desire comes from insecurity. It comes from belief in a Self.

Ezra: "Is he idolized and venerated as a "god"? Yes"

Wrong. The correct answer is: Yes and No. Although no form of buddhism "idolises" the buddha, some believe that he was, is, or became more than a man. However, some forms (notably, Theravada) believe that the buddha, Siddhartha Gautama, was merely a man. Nothing more, nothing less. He was no more special than you or I.

coastie: "Is hunger considered desire? Is wanting to stay alive desire?"

Hunger is a physiological response. Wanting to stay alive is, indeed, a desire.

coastie: "You desire to reach Nirvana, otherwise, you'd never try. If to escape all desire is to reach Nirvana; basically, you have to not desire anything, (including Nirvana) to reach Nirvana."

Very good. Keep in mind, Nirvana is not a place. It is not the buddhist equivalent of heaven. Cessation of desire is a part of Nirvana. Most buddhists don't desire to reach Nirvana; rather, we desire an end to suffering. We follow the buddha's teachings in order to end suffering, and by definition, the end result is Nirvana.

feral: "i love the idea of reincarnation..just love it, i guess because i would like to redo some things or try again and don't like the idea of eternal afterlife. other then that though, i know quite little about buddhism. what are the theories, beliefs and practices?"

Reincarnation (more properly, rebirth) is what buddhists try to *escape from*. The goal of buddhism is to *not* be reborn. Why? Because of truth #1: Life is suffering. If you continue to be reborn, you are continually exposing yourself to further suffering. Kinda defeats the purpose, eh?

coastie: "If instinct and desire are synonomous, that means that the instinct to stay alive, to find food, to gain wisdom all must be escaped from."

Yep. But wait! There's more! Buddhism is not an extremist religion. The buddha taught "the middle way". He learned that although material things do not bring enlightenment, neither does extreme asceticism. During his ascetic days, he came to the realisation that the body is the only tool we really have to find enlightenment, and therefore we shouldn't abuse it. Of course, all his ascetic friends ended up calling him a pansy, but oh well. Bottom line, it serves no purpose to starve yourself, and you shouldn't necessarily live life carelessly without regard to being killed, but rather... don't fear death. Don't cling to life. After all, none of us can escape death, so clinging to life doesn't change a thing.

If anyone has further questions or comments, let me know. Just keep in mind that I cannot answer question about all buddhists, just myself and what little I've read of others. =)
 
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vajradhara

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Namaste Aradia,

i had come across this thread as well and, until i read your posting, was going to make the self same corrections that you have already posted! thank you very much.

i think that it is important to have an accurate understanding of the other religious traditions that abound our globe and i appreciate the time that it took for you to answer the question and properly explain aspects of the Dharma.

you did a great job in explaining desire and it's use or lack thereof on the path. i would also like to offer this.

desire, as it is commonly understood and used, is not the same in it's usage within Buddhism. by and large, the Buddhist path is one of renunciation, however, that is simply one aspect and does not constitute the sum total of the teachings. we are encouraged on the path by developing Bodhichitta and this Bodhichitta also serves, if you will, as the motivation to continue the practice.

i would object, however, the most of the characterization that pace has posted from Arne Nass. for instance, the yoga aspects of Buddhism are actually it's esoteric teachings rather that it's exoteric teachings and the monks of Tibet are anything but ascetics.
 
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vajradhara

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LewisWildermuth said:
Just out of curiosity Susan...

What are you talking about?????
:confused:

Are you saying Buddhism has a frightening past?

Are you calling Buddhism a cult?

I have read up a little on Buddhism, I have to read more but I'm bogged down with otherthings at the moment. I have found it a rather interesting study and it does have some good points. I don't agree with reincarnation, but over all it is pretty harmless as far as religions go.
************
Namaste,

thank you for the post :)

Buddhism is not a cult :) Buddhism does not have a frightening past either :) as any rational person knows, one can call oneself anything one wishes, that however, does not make it so.

you raise a very good point, though, when you say that you don't believe in reincarnation.. this may surprise you, but neither do Buddhists! we believe in something called "rebirth". it is quite often confused for reincarnation, however it is decidedly different.

briefly, reincarnation connotes this same intellect, emotions, memories and so forth being "reanimated" in the form of a frog or an insect or a tree and so forth. rebirth, on the other hand, is a totally new combination of essence and karma, your previous karma being what decides the condition of the next instance. there is some difference of opinion on these things within the various schools of Buddhism, however that is a very technical discussion and one that is not condusive to dialog.

~compassionately~
 
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