Does anyone else wonder if the Gnostics may have been correct?

Rachel20

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I agree with so much here, brings many verses to mind
Jeremiah 17:9, 1 Samuel 16:7, Job 21:23-30, Psalms 73:3-18, Ecclesiastes 5:8, Ecclesiastes 10:7

I guess it doesn't bother me though, because it's what I expect from this Babylon-of-a-world and I've set my sights on the promise to come.
 
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Dec 16, 2011
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I can't help but wonder if our body and its inclinations, and how it affects our soul, is nothing but a source of pure, unadulterated evil that is odds with our spiritual self.

The fact that we have to do everything we can to tame the body, yet we can't, makes me think so. All we do is hurt each other based on what our body wants.
Yes, but by the grace of God and if we will it to be so and act in accordance with that good will and against or evil, carnal will, the bodies evil can be overcome and lessened, so that even our bodies can become sanctified.

There are many saints who were ugly, good for nothing nobodies. Even the beautiful and rich are ugly, good for nothing nobodies. Only Christ makes any of us worth anything at all. God is the only source of any good anywhere.
 
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I've been told that my entire life, and I know it's not true. Calvin was probably right. God ordains certain people to heaven, certain people to hell, and whatever our role in that Fate is, we have to accept that. It seems clear to me that God has ordained me to hell, and you can't wage war against that. I've been a monster my entire life and every attempt either on my own, with God, or God with me, has ended up with circumstances coming up blocking me or God Himself purposely ignoring me.

My destiny to hell will ultimately bring other people joy though, so I should be happy that I can partake in that. I'm happy when those in Heaven are happy.
Nah. No saint rejoices at the alienation of any soul from the joy of God.
 
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Hermit76

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I'm no Saint but I'm ugly and poor. That lets me know that my wife really loves me.

Joking aside. This bitterness isn't from the Saints or the Orthodox Church. Care to share a little about your history?
 
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Not David

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I can't help but wonder if our body and its inclinations, and how it affects our soul, is nothing but a source of pure, unadulterated evil that is odds with our spiritual self.

The fact that we have to do everything we can to tame the body, yet we can't, makes me think so. All we do is hurt each other based on what our body wants.
Then go for a run
 
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dzheremi

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But how is that fair in the slightest?

What God ordains is not about human conceptions of 'fairness', I'm afraid. Is it 'fair' that we have as our examples of how to live child martyrs like St. Abanoub of Nehisa (4th century), who was martyred at the age of 12 for his faith in Christ, and hence didn't get to live any life of beauty, privilege, riches, education, and all this? I would think so. I believe that children deserve to live and grow up and not be murdered at any point in the process, but if you are going to die, then there is nothing better than to die for the sake of Christ.

So 'fairness' does not really enter into the equation, in the end. He has gone where we all hope to go. He has run the race. May God help us all in that.

And what does that say about human nature?

That our Lord Jesus Christ was incarnate, and blessed our nature in Himself, elevating it and redeeming it and transforming it so that we are no longer slaves to sin and death. That is what all of the saints say about human nature. The light of Christ that is within them can be in any and all of us, if we struggle valiantly as they all did. There is no saint that had an 'easy' life, if we look away from material and worldly gain, because entering through the narrow gate is purposely difficult to do. This is our religion, holy and perfect from the Savior Himself. May we remember also the example of the great Abba John the Dwarf, who had much wisdom in praying not for an easy life, but for enemies and strength for the fight!

Christianity is not a religion of easiness, but continuous struggle. You do not have to accept it (in the sense that people are free to reject the Truth, even when He has come to us here on Earth), but the answer to the challenge is not in Gnosticism's warped, God-denying views.
 
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archer75

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I don't know, but occasionally I can't help but think that human nature is inherently evil, and we live an existence that awards pagan conceptions of "good" and "evil."

That is, to be good is to be pretty, romantic, rich, popular, sociable, strong, powerful, dominant. To be evil is to be weak, pathetic, ugly, poor, antisocial, unemployed, impotent.

Seriously, every human society, and even fundamental human interactions operate at this level. Look at the statistics; people who are bullied throughout high school usually end up in poverty, unemployed, and ugly, whereas the bullies end up as successful businessmen or engineers. You'll notice a correlation between people who are successful and beauty; criminals tend to be ugly people and beautiful people tend to be successful. You'll notice that some people will commit all kinds of "sins" such as fornication, murder, theft, snorting cocaine, and will face NO ramifications for it, while others will do the same and their lives are ruined.

I mean, this even extends to the Church. Let's not kid ourselves; nearly every single Saint story involves a pretty young man or woman, usually white and beautiful who lives a life full of sin, that includes sex, power, riches, wealth, vanity, violence; and then they have that moment where they "grow up" and view the past as "vanity." It really says a lot about "Christians" when all we do is canonize rich, pretty people, kings and queens, rich philosophers and politicians. What, you think Saint John Chrysostom, who seized the political ecclesial throne of Constantinople, was merely just a regular old dude?

Give me a break.

Nobody cares about that ugly, deformed peasant that died in the streets in Constantinople and into the hands of Christ. God's Church apparently doesn't care enough about such people to be a role model to others, to endure your suffering.


I've accepted the fact that this world is inherently unjust, and you are a damn fool trying to find justice in it.

But it begs the question - considering that we are so evil and corrupt that it even affects the Church, how the hell can we be merely "corrupted" rather than "evil" in of itself? Can you imagine being a human being without being attracted to beauty and power? The idea of Jesus as just "one of us dudes" who "chose to never sin" seems ridiculous more and more day by day, how can one not even unintentionally sin in our very essence?

Despite the fact that you will shake your fist at the wind towards the 1% in this country, you will still pay 15$ to go see a fantasy movie about beautiful, pretty, even sexy people fight in wars or supervillains.
I don't pay to see, or see, those movies.

There is no idea in Orthodoxy of Jeaus Christ as "just" some dude.

St. Mary of Egypt was what we would call today a sex addict who wouldn't even take money for sex so she could increase the number of people who would have sex with her. She lived in this manner for years. That kind of "lifestyle" is not good for you and she probably looked not so beautiful. Then after her years in the desert, she looked baked lile someone who has been exposed to the sun and elements for years. She certainly doesn't look lile some supermodel in the icons.

Anyway. If you mean what you wrote, I think you are seeing the world through a very powerful filter. What you wrote is largely not true.
 
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Nick T

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...Really? Saint Augustine, Saint Jerome, Saint Martin de Tours, Saint Mary of Egypt, Saint Moses the Ethiopian to name a few; every single Church Father was highly educated and had to be rich to get that education; Saint Constantine, Saint Justinian, Saint Vladimir, Saint Theodosius, Saint Olga.

Even with the inaccuracies in this list (which Fr. Matt has corrected for you) you are still ignoring the vast body of martyrs, most of whom were the very definition of the reviled and rejected of society. In fact they deliberately chose social rejection, poverty, and to die an unjust and shameful criminals death for the sake of Christ. I find it strange you manage to include two barely venerated Emperors on your list but none of the countless martyrs that occupy the vast majority of the Church calendar and receive the most popular veneration.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Even with the inaccuracies in this list (which Fr. Matt has corrected for you) you are still ignoring the vast body of martyrs, most of whom were the very definition of the reviled and rejected of society. In fact they deliberately chose social rejection, poverty, and to die an unjust and shameful criminals death for the sake of Christ. I find it strange you manage to include two barely venerated Emperors on your list but none of the countless martyrs that occupy the vast majority of the Church calendar and receive the most popular veneration.

not to mention all those Fathers and Mothers of the desert, who despite a lack of formal education on the whole wrote some of the most important spiritual writings of all time.
 
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