LDS What major translation problems do LDS see in the Bible?
- Thread starter Daniel Marsh
- Start date
I see the rendering "created" in some modern translation. I cannot argue with the scholars who made this choice but it is clear that Heb: qanah in Pro 8:22 is different from Heb: bara in Gen 1:1, which actually means "created."
Some modern translations take a middle road by translating "acquired me" or "brought me forth." Perhaps these are better. Still the point is that that took place "before His works of old," which is similar to the Nicene Creed saying about the Son of God, "begotten of the Father before all ages."
Upvote
0
Peter1000
Well-Known Member
That is not correct. As you know there is far more to it than ritual and ceremonies. For instance, you did not mention Jesus Christ and his atonement or his grace.
So you are trying to make it look like if we follow the law of Moses, we will be saved. That is not true. I believe you know that, but you forget at least 1/2 of our doctrine, and you lead people away from our true doctrine.
Is that a good thing?
Upvote
0
He is the way
Well-Known Member
Yes, Jesus did die for everyone, but that does not mean that everyone will be saved. The Bible is very clear that everyone will NOT be saved:
(New Testament | Revelation 21:7 - 8)
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Upvote
0
He is the way
Well-Known Member
What He requires for eternal life is this:
(New Testament | Luke 10:25 - 28)
25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
Upvote
0
- Jun 28, 2015
- 9,749
- 2,615
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
So, "narrow is the road to eternal punishment and wide the superhiway to heaven".
Matthew 7:13 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
13 “You can enter true life only through the narrow gate. The gate to hell is very wide, and there is plenty of room on the road that leads there. Many people go that way.
Upvote
0
He is the way
Well-Known Member
(New Testament | Luke 4:4)
4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
(New Testament | James 2:14 - 17)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
(New Testament | Revelation 20:12 - 14)
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 5:10)
10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
Upvote
0
This is where I'm confused about LDS doctrine.
Who are the overcomes who inherit these things? Those in the Celestial Kingdom?
What's the definition of salvation? All those in the 3 Kingdoms?
If my understanding is correct then salvation is different from overcoming, in LDS understanding.
In traditional Christian understanding they're the same bec there is one Kingdom of God, and we're either in or out.
Do you see my point?
Upvote
0
He is the way
Well-Known Member
Jesus Christ overcame the world:
(New Testament | John 16:33)
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
We too can overcome the world by keeping the commandments of LOVE:
(New Testament | 1 John 5:1 - 5)
1 WHOSOEVER believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Once we have the commandments we need to continue to keep them:
(New Testament | 1 John 5:18 - 20)
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
(New Testament | 1 John 3:18 - 24)
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:20 - 22)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
There are different glories in the resurrection:
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:35 - 43)
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
Upvote
0
I asked about the definition of "salvation." What you wrote is all true but it has absolutely nothing to do with my question.
Salvation is usually defined as "eternal life" in the Kingdom of God. Do LDS have a different definition. The answer I found is the following:
"Latter-day Saints, including our prophets, will often use the two words [salvation and exultation] interchangeably. That gets confusing for people outside of our religion, so I’m separating the two."
"But because of Christ’s grace, essentially everyone who ever lives will eventually end up somewhere in those three kingdoms of heaven. But exaltation is more than just living somewhere in heaven, it’s living in the highest degree of heaven and having the opportunity to literally become like God."
"So, when the article of faith says “that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,” it’s actually referencing exaltation, not just salvation. Salvation comes by grace alone."
Salvation and Exaltation — What's the Difference? - Saints Unscripted
So, LDS believe in universal salvation. But they often refer to "exaltation" as "salvation" thus confusing us, Christians and leading us to misunderstand their teaching.
Now, can those in the Telestial Kingdom be said to be truly saved when they have no access to Christ? As a Christian, I believe that the Son and the Holy Spirit are the same God, so they're not really separated from Christ.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Jun 28, 2015
- 9,749
- 2,615
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
IMHO, I do not see a conflict between James and Paul Eph 2:8-10. I think one is saved by grace. Than, good works in the Power of God thru the Holy Spirit filling are the natural fruits. If one does not have good works and is not adding the virtues of II Peter 1 then their is a problem because good works flow naturally from one saved by grace.
I think the problem Traditional Christians see in LDS teachings is,
"For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”
2 Nephi 25:23
Has Grace and good works backwards. Truth is grace followed by good works which is the fruit of the Holy Spirit empowering Us.
Upvote
0
- Jun 28, 2015
- 9,749
- 2,615
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
celestial body (plural celestial bodies) (astronomy, astrology) A natural object which is located outside of Earth's atmosphere, such as the Moon, the Sun, an asteroid, planet, or star.
TERRESTRIAL - Definition from the KJV Dictionaryav1611.com › kjbp › kjv-dictionary › terrestrial
terrestrial. TERRES'TRIAL, a. L. terrestris, from terra, the earth. 1. Pertaining to the earth; existing on the earth; as terrestrial animals; bodies terrestrial. 1 Cor.15.
Upvote
0
Peter1000
Well-Known Member
Andrewn says:
Then according to your works, you will determin which of the 3 kingdoms you will live in for eternity.
That is how grace and works work together and why they are both important.
Only salvation for those who reach the lower 2 kingdoms of heaven.
And yes, even in the church we use them interchangeably.
Even in the bible it is confusing, because they use the terms "eternal life" and salvation interchangeably too.
This in a nutshell is how we view salvation, heaven, and eternal life. By the grace of Jesus Christ you will be saved in 1 of the 3 kingdoms of heaven.
Then according to your works, you will determin which of the 3 kingdoms you will live in for eternity.
That is how grace and works work together and why they are both important.
To reduce confusion, it should say: That through the Atonement of Chrsit, all mankind may be save. Then by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel, one may be exalted in the highest level of heaven.
Yes, salvation and exaltation are 2 different things. Salvation gets you into heaven, Exaltation is for those that reach the highest kingdom.
Only salvation for those who reach the lower 2 kingdoms of heaven.
And yes, even in the church we use them interchangeably.
Even in the bible it is confusing, because they use the terms "eternal life" and salvation interchangeably too.
Yes, because they do still have access to 1 of the members of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit. We do not believe that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are physically the same God. So Jesus can be in another place as the Holy Spirit visits the Telestial kingdom.
Upvote
0
Peter1000
Well-Known Member
1 Corinthians 15:39-42 King James Version (KJV)
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption.
Paul tells us there are bodies Celestial (glory of the sun), and bodies Terrestrial (glory of the moon), and then does not mention the 3rd kingdom, but gives it a glory of the stars.
Then Paul says in vs 42 "So also is the resurrection of the dead." Does he mean that in the resurrection our corrupt bodies will be raised in incorruption and that those who do all that they are supposed to do, receive a Celestial body, and those that do less than they should receive a Terrestrial body, and those that do pretty much nothing receive a Telestial body.
And then he compares the glory of these 3 bodies as compared with the sun, moon, and stars.
This is what we believe Paul is trying to tell us in this scripture about the resurrection. We believe JS was right on target, and it makes sense realizing the different attitudes and works of people from the beginning. Some who believe and are valient. Some who believe and are not valient, some who do not believe. It all makes more sense.
Upvote
0
Peter1000
Well-Known Member
I believe that you know many Christians that say they are saved, but do not produce the natural fruit by the Power of God thru the Holy Spirit.
Nephi could have been more clear and said "we know that it is by grace that we are saved, and after all we can do to produce natural fruit thru the Holy Spirit, we realize the Celestial kingdom of God."
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Jun 28, 2015
- 9,749
- 2,615
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
"There will be three eternal kingdoms of widely differing glories and one place for the sons of perdition. The sphere of exaltation in the celestial kingdom is reserved for the faithful and obedient. They will be gods and shall dwell in the presence of God, the father, and His Christ forever. The terrestrial kingdom is for the lukewarm believers and those who accepted the gospel only while in the spirit world, that is after death. They remain without exaltation and receive the presence of the Son but not of the father. The lowest sphere in the celestial world is reserved for the rest who rejected Christ (or the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints) and lived wickedly. They will never experience the presence of God or of Christ, but shall live eternally as servants of God. Perdition is for those who have no hope of any degree of salvation, that is Satan and the angels who rebelled with him,and all men who committed the impardonable sin. They are doomed to everlasting fire. However, eternal punishment is not really eternal, because God has the power to pardon them after an appropriate time"
https://www.cs.uni-potsdam.de/ti/kreitz/Christian/Cults/2.mormons.pdf
Upvote
0
- Jun 28, 2015
- 9,749
- 2,615
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
One needs to choose to be filled by the Holy Spirit daily which is why many do not bear fruit and good works of God.
Enjoying the discussion,
Daniel
Upvote
0
- Jun 28, 2015
- 9,749
- 2,615
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
Upvote
0
He is the way
Well-Known Member
You said: "Now, can those in the Telestial Kingdom be said to be truly saved when they have no access to Christ?"
They are saved from the second death:
(New Testament | Revelation 20:14 - 15)
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
They made the choice not to be with Christ:
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 6:9 - 10)
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 6:15 - 20)
15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 10:21)
21 Wherefore, if ye have sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation, then ye are found unclean before the judgment–seat of God; and no unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore, ye must be cast off forever.
You said: "As a Christian, I believe that the Son and the Holy Spirit are the same God, so they're not really separated from Christ"
Jesus said He is one with the Father in glory and perfection:
(New Testament | John 17:21 - 23)
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Similar threads
