THE TRUE EVE

Michie

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In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

In order to understand the role of the Blessed Virgin in the work of our salvation, we must look back to the origin of all things. There we see just how considerate God is: in the work of regenerating our nature he employed all that had once contributed to its ruin. It is certain that God could have delivered mankind without becoming a man. Yet it pleased him to redeem us by becoming a man so that the same nature that had been enslaved by the demon could win the victory over him and his overbold companions. Even when the Son of God had resolved to come to earth and to clothe himself in human flesh, he could have made himself a body and a soul without the assistance of his creatures, and thus been spared the shame of belonging to a criminal line. Nevertheless, his incomprehensible Providence disposed otherwise. It pleased him that grace and blessing should find its origin in this accursed race. Our Lord wanted to be the son of Adam so that his blessed birth would forever sanctify the race that had been infected by sin.

Since both man and woman participated in the despoiling of our nature, they would also participate in its restoration. If the corruption of sin had dishonored both sexes, it was necessary that the Redeemer of man should honor them both. That is why Jesus Christ, a man, was born of a woman. And because mankind was cast into eternal damnation by a man and a woman, it was fitting that God should have predestined a new Eve as well as a new Adam, so as to replace the old line that had been condemned with a new line sanctified by grace. We may, therefore, conclude that just as the first Eve was the mother of all those condemned to die, so the new Eve, Mary, is the mother of all the living, that is, the faithful.

Let us compare Eve and Mary. The work of our corruption began with Eve, the work of our regeneration with Mary. An angel of darkness spoke to Eve, an angel of light to Mary. The angel of darkness wished to raise Eve to the false dignity of pretending to be divine, saying to her, “You will be like God.” The angel of light identified Mary’s true dignity as her friendship with God, saying, “The Lord is with you.” The angel of darkness, speaking to Eve, sought to incite her to rebellion: “Did God say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree of the garden?’” The angel of light, speaking to Mary, persuaded her to be obedient: “Do not be afraid, Mary . . . with God, nothing will be impossible.” The word of death was spoken to Eve, the word of life to the Blessed Virgin. Eve believed the serpent, Mary the angel. Thus, as Tertullian said, “a pious faith erased the fault of an audacious credulity, and Mary repaired by her belief in God what Eve had ruined by believing the devil.” Eve, led astray by the demon, was forced to flee the presence of God, while Mary, instructed by the angel, was made worthy to bear God, so that, as the holy martyr Irenaeus said, “the Virgin Mary became the advocate for the virgin Eve.”

Continued below-
The True Eve — FAITH & CULTURE
 

Michie

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What is the point of posting this? This may be what you Catholics believe, but it doesn't mean much to others. What are you trying to say in your own words?
I’m pointing out what Catholics believe. Hopefully to stave off misconceptions. And hopefully forge some better relations with various Christians on both sides of the aisle. The article covers it. Nothing for me to add
 
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thecolorsblend

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What is the point of posting this? This may be what you Catholics believe, but it doesn't mean much to others. What are you trying to say in your own words?
Catholics regard Our Lord as the New Adam and Our Lady as the New Eve.

The article goes to considerable lengths to compare Our Lady's choices and experiences to Eve. Frankly, even a lot of Protestants find it difficult to ignore the parallels and point/counterpoint comparisons between Eve and Our Lady. These similarities and differences have fascinated theologians for centuries.

Right around the middle of my time in the evangelical world, even I began to wonder that the reformers (or their successors, at any rate) might've thrown the baby out with the bathwater when it came to Our Lady.

Considering the absolute lack of understand of Catholic teaching which is rampant in large parts of the Protestant world, articles such as the OP could do a considerable amount to shed light on what we Catholics actually believe while also providing insight into why we believe it.

If nothing else, there's no harm in good information, yes?
 
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The Liturgist

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Catholics regard Our Lord as the New Adam and Our Lady as the New Eve.

This isn’t just the Roman Catholic belief, but the belief of most of the early Church Fathers, and the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyruannbelief and the prevailing belief among magiaterial Protestants. Most high church Anglicans I know believe this, and I think, @MarkRohfrietsch and @ViaCrucis - correct me if I am wrong, this belief is widely held by Lutherans.

So I would say this doctrine is not just Roman Catholic, but also correct Nicene Catholic doctrine, in the sense that this doctrine is actually the correct doctrine that members of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church referred to in the Nicene Creed should believe.

So all orthodox, catholic Christians and not just Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Christians should believe this, in my opinion.
 
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thecolorsblend

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This isn’t just the Roman Catholic belief, but the belief of most of the early Church Fathers, and the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyruannbelief and the prevailing belief among magiaterial Protestants. Most high church Anglicans I know believe this, and I think, @MarkRohfrietsch and @ViaCrucis - correct me if I am wrong, this belief is widely held by Lutherans.

So I would say this doctrine is not just Roman Catholic, but also correct Nicene Catholic doctrine, in the sense that this doctrine is actually the correct doctrine that members of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church referred to in the Nicene Creed should believe.

So all orthodox, catholic Christians and not just Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Christians should believe this, in my opinion.
Fair enough. The context of the post I was replying to was centered around Catholicism so that framed the nature of my response. But as you say, it's not like we're the only ones who believe those things about her so I probably should've mentioned the same points you brought up.
 
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The Liturgist

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Fair enough. The context of the post I was replying to was centered around Catholicism so that framed the nature of my response. But as you say, it's not like we're the only ones who believe those things about her so I probably should've mentioned the same points you brought up.

Just so you know my post was in no respect a criticism of your post; I agreed with everything you had to say.
 
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thecolorsblend

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George95

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I love this video but then I an an Evangelical Traditional Christian. Go figure;)

I was just going to find that video to post it! :p
 
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BobRyan

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I’m pointing out what Catholics believe. Hopefully to stave off misconceptions. And hopefully forge some better relations with various Christians on both sides of the aisle. The article covers it. Nothing for me to add

If Mary was born sinless without needing her mother to first be born sinless... then Christ was born sinless without first needing His mother to be born sinless and so the entire argument above about Mary is defeated in its own first premise... that Mary could be born sinless without first having to have her mother be born sinless.
 
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Michie

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Romans 3:23 says, “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” First John 1:8 adds, “If any man says he has no sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him.” These texts could not be clearer for millions of Protestants: “How could anyone believe Mary was free from all sin in light of these Scripture passages? What’s more, Mary herself said, ‘My soul rejoices in God my savior’ in Luke 1:47. She clearly understood herself to be a sinner if she admits to needing a savior.”

The Catholic Answer
Not a few Protestants are surprised to discover the Catholic Church actually agrees that Mary was “saved.” Indeed, Mary needed a savior! However, Mary was “saved” from sin in a most sublime manner. She was given the grace to be “saved” completely from sin so that she never committed even the slightest transgression. Protestants tend to emphasize God’s “salvation” almost exclusively to the forgiveness of sins actually committed. However, Sacred Scripture indicates that salvation can also refer to man being protected from sinning before the fact:

Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever. (Jude 24-25)


Six hundred years ago, the great Franciscan theologian Duns Scotus explained that falling into sin could be likened to a man approaching unaware a deep ditch. If he falls into the ditch, he needs someone to lower a rope and save him. But if someone were to warn him of the danger ahead, preventing the man from falling into the ditch at all, he would be saved from falling in the first place. Likewise, Mary was saved from sin by receiving the grace to be preserved from it. But she was still saved.

All Have Sinned Except . . .
But what about “all have sinned” (Rom. 3:23) and “if any man says he has no sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him” (1 John 1:8)? Wouldn’t “all” and “any man” include Mary? On the surface, this sounds reasonable. But this way of thinking carried to its logical conclusion would list Jesus Christ in the company of sinners as well. No faithful Christian would dare say that. Yet no Christian can deny the plain texts of Scripture declaring Christ’s full humanity either. Thus, to take 1 John 1:8 in a strict, literal sense would apply “any man” to Jesus as well.

The truth is Jesus Christ was an exception to Romans 3:23 and 1 John 1:8. And the Bible tells us he was in Hebrews 4:15: “Christ was tempted in all points even as we are and yet he was without sin.” The question now is: Are there any other exceptions to this rule? Yes—millions of them.

Both Romans 3:23 and 1 John 1:9 deal with personal rather than original sin. (Romans 5 deals with original sin.) And there are two exceptions to that general biblical norm as well. But for now, we will simply deal with Romans 3:23 and 1 John 1:8. First John 1:8 obviously refers to personal sin because in the very next verse, John tells us, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins . . .” We do not confess original sin; we confess personal sins.

The context of Romans 3:23 makes clear that it too refers to personal sin:

None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one. Their throat is an open grave. They use their tongues to deceive. The venom of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness. (Rom. 3:10-14)

Original sin is not something we do; it is something we’ve inherited. Romans chapter three deals with personal sin because it speaks of sins committed by the sinner. With this in mind, consider this: Has a baby in the womb or a child of two ever committed a personal sin? No. To sin a person has to know the act he is about to perform is sinful while freely engaging his will in carrying it out. Without the proper faculties to enable them to sin, children before the age of accountability and anyone who does not have the use of his intellect and will cannot sin. So, there are and have been millions of exceptions to Romans 3:23 and 1 John 1:8.

Still, how do we know Mary is an exception to the norm of “all have sinned?” And more specifically, is there biblical support for this claim? Yes, there is much biblical support.

The Name Says it All
And [the angel Gabriel] came to [Mary] and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.” (Luke 1:28-30)

Many Protestants will insist this text to be little more than a common greeting of the Archangel Gabriel to Mary. “What does this have to do with Mary being without sin?” Yet, the truth is, according to Mary herself, this was no common greeting. The text reveals Mary to have been “greatly troubled at the saying and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be” (Luke 1:29, emphasis added). What was it about this greeting that was so uncommon for Mary to react this way? We can consider at least two key aspects.

First, according to biblical scholars (as well as Pope John Paul II), the angel did more than simply greet Mary. The angel actually communicated a new name or title to her. (cf. Redemptoris Mater, 8, 9). In Greek, the greeting was kaire, kekaritomene, or “Hail, full of grace.” Generally speaking, when one greeted another with kaire, a name or title would be found in the immediate context. “Hail, king of the Jews” in John 19:3 and “Claudias Lysias, to his Excellency the governor Felix, greeting” (Acts 23:26) are two biblical examples of this. The fact that the angel replaces Mary’s name in the greeting with “full of grace” was anything but common. This would be analogous to me speaking to one of our tech guys at Catholic Answers and saying, “Hello, he who fixes computers.” In Hebrew culture, names and name changes tell us something permanent about the character and calling of the one named. Just recall the name changes of Abram to Abraham (from “father” to “father of the multitudes”) in Genesis 17:5, Saray to Sarah (“my princess” to “princess”), in Genesis 17:15 and Jacob to Israel (“supplanter” to “he who prevails with God”) in Genesis 32:28.

In each case, the names reveal something permanent about the one named. Abraham and Sarah transition from being a “father” and “princess” of one family to being “father” and “princess” or “mother” of the entire people of God (see Rom. 4:1-18; Is. 51:1-2). They become patriarch and matriarch of God’s people forever. Jacob/Israel becomes the patriarch whose name, “he who prevails with God,” continues forever in the Church, which is called “the Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16). The People of God will forever “prevail with God” in the image of the patriarch Jacob.

What’s in a name? According to Scripture, quite a lot.

St. Luke uses the perfect passive participle, kekaritomene, as his “name” for Mary. This word literally means “she who has been graced” in a completed sense. This verbal adjective, “graced,” is not just describing a simple past action. Greek has another tense for that. The perfect tense is used to indicate that an action has been completed in the past resulting in a present state of being. “Full of grace” is Mary’s name. So what does it tell us about Mary? Well, the average Christian is not completed in grace and in a permanent sense (see Phil. 3:8-12). But according to the angel, Mary is. You and I sin, not because of grace, but because of a lack of grace, or a lack of our cooperation with grace, in our lives. This greeting of the angel is one clue into the unique character and calling of the Mother of God. Only Mary is given the name “full of grace” and in the perfect tense, indicating that this permanent state of Mary was completed.

Ark of the (New) Covenant
The Old Testament Ark of the Covenant was a true icon of the sacred. Because it contained the presence of God symbolized by three types of the coming Messiah—the manna, the Ten Commandments, and Aaron’s rod—it had to be pure and untouched by sinful man (see 2 Sam. 6:1-9 and Ex. 25:10ff; Num. 4:15).

In the New Testament, the new Ark is not an inanimate object, but a person: the Blessed Mother. How much more pure would the new Ark be when we consider the old ark was a mere “shadow” in relation to it (see Heb. 10:1)? This image of Mary as the Ark of the Covenant is an indicator that Mary would fittingly be free from all contagion of sin to be a worthy vessel to bear God in her womb. And most importantly, just as the Old Covenant Ark was pristine from the moment it was constructed with explicit divine instructions in Exodus 25, so would Mary be pure from the moment of her conception. God, in a sense, prepared his own dwelling place in both the Old and New Testaments.

  1. The Ark of the Covenant contained three “types” of Jesus inside: manna, Aaron’s rod, and the Ten Commandments. In Hebrew, commandment (dabar) can be translated “word.” Compare: Mary carried the fulfillment of all these types in her body. Jesus is the “true [manna] from heaven” (John 6:32), the true “High Priest” (Heb. 3:1), and “the word made flesh” (John 1:14).
  2. The glory cloud (Hebrew Anan) was representative of the Holy Spirit, and it “overshadowed” the Ark when Moses consecrated it in Ex. 40:32-33. The Greek word for “overshadow” found in the Septuagint is a form of episkiasei. Compare: “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God” (Luke 1:35). The Greek word for “overshadow” is episkiasei.
  3. David “leapt and danced” before the Ark when it was being carried into Jerusalem in procession in 2 Sam. 6:14-16. Compare: As soon as Elizabeth heard the sound of Mary’s salutation, John the Baptist “leaped for joy” in her womb (cf. Luke 1:41-44).
  4. After a manifestation of the power of God working through the Ark, David exclaims, “How can the Ark of the Lord come unto me?” Compare: After the revelation to Elizabeth about the true calling of Mary, who was carrying God in her womb, Elizabeth exclaims, “Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Luke 1:43)
  5. The Ark of the Lord “remained in the house of Obededom . . . three months” in 2 Sam. 6:11. Compare: “Mary remained with [Elizabeth] for about three months” (Luke 1:56).
The New Eve...

Continued below.

Hail Mary, Conceived Without Sin
 
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BobRyan

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Romans 3:23 says, “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” First John 1:8 adds, “If any man says he has no sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him.” These texts could not be clearer for millions of Protestants: “How could anyone believe Mary was free from all sin in light of these Scripture passages? What’s more, Mary herself said, ‘My soul rejoices in God my savior’ in Luke 1:47. She clearly understood herself to be a sinner if she admits to needing a savior.”

agreed.

The Catholic Answer
Not a few Protestants are surprised to discover the Catholic Church actually agrees that Mary was “saved.” Indeed, Mary needed a savior! However, Mary was “saved” from sin in a most sublime manner. She was given the grace to be “saved” completely from sin so that she never committed even the slightest transgression.

"ALL" HAVE sinned..

Forgiveness of sins is granted on condition of confession and repentance - did she repent... or was she not forgiven? It appears that she repented and was forgiven.


Protestants tend to emphasize God’s “salvation” almost exclusively to the forgiveness of sins actually committed.

1 John 3:4 - by definition "sin IS transgression of the LAW"
 
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Michie

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agreed.



"ALL" HAVE sinned..

Forgiveness of sins is granted on condition of confession and repentance - did she repent... or was she not forgiven? It appears that she repented and was forgiven.




1 John 3:4 - by definition "sin IS transgression of the LAW"
Well the explanation is there for anyone that actually wants to read it. :thumbsup:
 
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BobRyan

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Well the explanation is there for anyone that actually wants to read it. :thumbsup:

What if the protestant acceptance of the Mary of the Bible is correct? What significance would that have in your opinion?

so then

1. Incarnation is true.
2. Mary made mistakes, was a sinner like the rest of us.
3. No immaculate conception regarding Mary's mother
4. No resurrection of Mary
5. No bodily ascension of Mary
6. not a single one of the added stories about Mary are true under the Protestant view of this subject. so Consider this for a few seconds for the sake of discussion.

So then -- nothing that is not actually in the Bible regarding Mary.

We still have the Gospel, we still have the incarnation, Christ alone is sinless, Gospel is the same.

Isn't the Catholic church also still ok in that case?
 
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Michie

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This isn’t just the Roman Catholic belief, but the belief of most of the early Church Fathers, and the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyruannbelief and the prevailing belief among magiaterial Protestants. Most high church Anglicans I know believe this, and I think, @MarkRohfrietsch and @ViaCrucis - correct me if I am wrong, this belief is widely held by Lutherans.

So I would say this doctrine is not just Roman Catholic, but also correct Nicene Catholic doctrine, in the sense that this doctrine is actually the correct doctrine that members of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church referred to in the Nicene Creed should believe.

So all orthodox, catholic Christians and not just Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Christians should believe this, in my opinion.
:thumbsup:
 
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