Observations About Free-willian Bible Interpretation And Free-willian Writings

Kermos

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.
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My intent of the "many words" comment is that the link you posted was little more that a long list of scriptures, without any real attempt at explaining why these passages support whatever it is your attempting to validate. Anyone can string an ad nauseam parade of scriptures, but that does little to prove anything. Sometimes, the overuse of scripture in an argument can obscure the fact that you cannot explain what they mean, and your hoping that the hearer will simply acquiesce to your point because "they quote so many scriptures that they must be right. " This is the same kind of tactic that cult practitioners do, especially those like the Jehovah's Witnesses! I've seen it a hundred times; instead of dealing with the questions about one passage, they throw out another two or three passages that can deter the conversation in another direction. (And no, I'm not implying that you are a cult practitioner!)

Mature students know better than to fall for such tactics, and, in my humble opinion, good teachers can make their point with two or three passages. Jesus never used long lists of quotations, and he was the best teacher ever! When you learn from the best, you can ignore the rest!

This is why I don't fall for the "By the way, TibiasDad, based on the context of your post, you proved the original post true" arguments; your saying that it proves it does not in fact prove it! If you would care to demonstrate how this is necessarily true, perhaps we can have a real conversation, but unless you want to accept my arguments at face value, I see no reason to accept yours or anyone else's at face value.


Doug

Well, let's just review some of the first section right here, TibiasDad.

Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

The Word of God indicates no based upon both scriptural text and context.

The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will.

  1. God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)
    AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree

    AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree

    YET a command does not convey ability (see also God's Commands Distinguished From Man's Ability)

    BUT the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "for in the day that you eat" - the "for" is promissory

    NOT a conditional logic construct such as "if in the day that you eat"

    IN fact, the English word "for" is translated from the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki)

    AND the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki) contains the meanings of these English words "that", "for", "when" (Strong's Hebrew: 3588. כִּ֗י (ki) -- that, for, when)

    THEREFORE the word "when" fits where the word "for" resides in Genesis 2:17

    THUS the phrase "when in the day that you eat" is an accurate translation for Genesis 2:17 (see also cross-referenceing the Hebrew word כִּ֗י [ki] definition via scripture with scripture providing the proof that [1] the translation deficiency of the word "if" for the Hebrew word כִּ֗י [ki] and [2] the translation efficiency of the word "when" for the Hebrew word כִּ֗י [ki] respecting the early chapters of Genesis)

    SO this confirms the promissory nature, the prophecy of man eating the fruit, with the word "for"/"when" in Genesis 2:17

    AND this imposes contextual certainty indicating God's foreknowledge over the matter described in Genesis 2:17

    SO there is no free will indicated for Adam

    AND the firm fact is established

    THAT God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)

  2. Attributes/Characteristics Compared And Contrasted
  3. The attribute of man being created in the image according to the likeness of God
    WITH a targeted result of logical deductive reasoning leveraging compare and contrast of attributes/facilities

    SINCE Adam was made in the image according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26)

    THEN some persons of the creation (creatures) argue that specific facility was given to Adam

    IN particular God willpowering purported "free will" into man during the creation of Adam (see also examining the words "freewill offering" in the Old Testament)

    THEN Adam could not have used free will to perform evil against God

    BECAUSE God will not use willpower in order to perform evil against God's self (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 92:15, Deuteronomy 32:4)

    THEREFORE it follows that Man could not use free will in order to perform evil against God
    1. The logical extension of free will on this basis results in man possessing expanded facilities beyond God's facilities
    2. God is Creator; on the other hand, man is creature
    3. Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.
    4. Scripture does not include the mention of endowing Adam with free will
    5. Man's free will is a precept of man (Matthew 15:9)
  4. Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world
    SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)

    AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13)

    THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)

    SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

    THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind

    SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden

    THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will

  5. The timeline of Adam knowing good and evil
    BEFORE Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

    THEN Adam and Eve knew not good and evil

    AFTER Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

    THEN Adam and Eve knew good and evil

    FOR the delineation is clarified when God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22)

    YET based on the Word of God saying "has become" recorded in Genesis 3:22

    THEN Adam did not know good and evil before eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

    SO Adam did not know good and evil when God issued the command "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die!" (Genesis 2:17)

    THEREFORE at the time of eating, Adam listened and followed the last that he heard about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

    WHICH Adam heard from Eve

    FOR God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17)

    SO Adam listened to Eve and Adam ate from the tree prior to knowing good and evil

    AND a person does good by obeying God; on the other hand, a person does evil by disobeying God

    SO free will choosing of good or choosing of evil is not the context

    AND action is the context

    SINCE good and evil are not known to Adam prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

    THEREFORE it follows that Adam was not endowed with the attribute of free will

  6. The pattern of "sight" around the time that Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
    AND these quotations are provided in sequential order - that is chronolgically accurate
    1. God's only command that carried a punishment was "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die" (Genesis 2:17)
      SEE the command and punishment are pronounced first

    2. "the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed" (Genesis 2:25)
      SEE that Adam and Eve were naked and they were unashamed in their "sight"

    3. "The serpent said to the woman, 'You surely will not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.'" (Genesis 3:4-5)
      SEE the word "eyes"

    4. "When the woman saw that the tree was good for food" (Genesis 3:6)
      SEE the word "saw"

    5. "and that it was a delight to the eyes" (Genesis 3:6)
      SEE the word "eyes"

    6. "and that the tree was desirable to make [one] wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate" (Genesis 3:6)
      SEE that Adam and Eve ate of the tree that was forbidden in the only command that carried a punishment

    7. "Then the eyes of both of them were opened" (Genesis 3:7)
      SEE the word "eyes"

    8. "and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings" (Genesis 3:7)
      SEE that Adam and Eve tried to conceal themselves, a first stage using fig leaves

    9. "They heard the sound of YHWH God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of YHWH God among the trees of the garden" (Genesis 3:8)
      SEE that Adam and Eve tried to conceal themselves, a second stage using the trees of the garden

      BUT during this second stage they tried to hide themselves from God's "sight"

    10. The visual acuity aspect of "sight" is VERY clear in the creation account
    11. These perceptive aspects of "sight" are VERY clear in the creation account (see also examining the word "saw" in Genesis 3:6)
      • "attention"
      • "thought"
      • "focal point"
    12. Linguistically, logically, and spiritually, "sight" in context indicates visual acuity and perception within the creation account
  7. The attribute of "joining" - marriage
    1. Lord Jesus says a topically very profound statement of "from the beginning of creation, [God] made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let no man separate." (Mark 10:6-9)
    2. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Christ and the Bride of Christ
    3. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to marriage between "male and female" (creatures both)
    4. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Adam and Eve, the man and the woman
    5. God does the joining, while, on the other hand, man and woman are only the joyful recipients
    6. The facility of "joining" is not attributed to man and/or woman
    7. The facility of "joining" is attributed to God
For expanded topic coverage, please see this integral essay Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor (not a ChristianForums.com link).

May the Lord abound mercy and understanding and strength and grace in we His own for the Day approaches rapidly!
 
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FreeGrace2

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Your questions are insulting, FreeGrace2; nonetheless, here is the answer, yes.
They are not insulting. I highly suspect that you do NOT understand what it means.

Since you claim "yes", please define and explain the biblical meaning of "election".

It appears to me that you try to evade the Truth (John 14:6) that God alone chooses people unto salvation (John 15:16-19).
The truth is that John 15 and being chosen is for bearing fruit. That's NOT salvation. Again, I highly suspect that you do NOT understand election. No Calvinist does.

FreeGrace2, you persist in committing the very error outlined in the original post to this thread in the above, as you just ignore posts that demonstrate where you are proven wrong about where you wrote "Jesus left with ONLY 11 disciples".
I proved that between John 13 and 18:1, Jesus was with the remaining 11 disciples. I guess you didn't bother to read any of it. So it's you committing errors here.

Matthias and Joseph, both disciples, were with the apostles "all the time", so that puts at least 13 people in the upper room,
Nice try, though. Just read the text.

You have been PROVEN WRONG by scripture about "Jesus left with ONLY 11 disciples", so it appears that your are not interested in what the Word says, after all, the proof was presented in the eighth post of this thread - that is before you made your first post to this thread.
The proof is that Judas LEFT the group in John 13:30 and Jesus left with "His disciples" to the garden, when Judas came back with the armed group to arrest Him.

But since this is all unfamiliar to you, what's the point in further discussion? I'm interested in discussing with people who are at least familiar with the texts.

This is the Truth (John 14:6).
Amen! Why do you think I am "evading this truth"?

The Apostle Paul, for one, is another Apostle beyond the 12, and Paul was chosen by Jesus.
So, are you going to argue that he was at the Last Supper too??

Don't think for a moment that I am writing that Paul was there when Jesus said "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" (John 6:70).
What about the Last Supper?

Clearly, Lord Jesus says that Jesus chose the twelve as apostles at that time. Jesus did not say "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) when Jesus said "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" (John 6:70). Sequence is crucial, FreeGrace2.
What you continue to fail to understand is that in both verses, the meaning of "chosen" is the SAME, which isn't about salvation.

By the way, Matthias and Joseph were there as disciples as well, as indicated earlier.
Where is it "indicated"? You love to make claims, but come up short on evidence.

It appears that you dish out facetiousness, but you cannot take when your writing of "Sure. So Judas was saved, even though the Bible says he went to perdition?? Sure." is put right back at you.
I explained what I meant. It was sarcasm. btw, it proves that Judas, though chosen, was NOT saved. Proving that election isn't about salvation.

Apparently, you persist in ingnoring the Word of God saying "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) because the word "chose" is a variant of eklego.
Have you ever studied the 3 related words? Eklego the noun, eklektos the adjective, and eklegomai the verb. I've researched EVERY word in the NT and guess what! None of them relate to salvation. Zero.

You are mishandling John 6:70, as demonstrated above.
You've demonstrating only that you don't understand what election is about.

Your evidentiary declarations are vacuuous.
No, your opinions are.

I've already brought to your attention that Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) in correspondence in this thread, and the Word of God speaks for Himself.
You can remove the parentheses, since it is factually untrue.

You wrongly just took a sentence out of it's context, so your claim is error. The Word of God has been proclaimed again and again to you.
No, your opinion has. Which I strongly reject.

This is why I quote 1 Corinthians 2:14 states that "a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" to you.
I've already noted that many unbelievers can correctly explain the gospel all the while rejecting it. So you are proven wrong again.

Wow, I point out that the Word of God states "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) by which Lord Jesus defines belief/faith and thus believe with it's conjugates, yet you openly reject the Word of God.
Again, I reject your opinions about what you think the Word of God means. I explained what Jesus meant. But you are free to reject whatever you want to reject.

You continue to wrongly strip sentences out of their context, so your claim is error. The Word of God has been proclaimed again and again to you.
You've proven nothing. Where is your evidence to back up your opinions?

See that "by grace you have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8-10). Paul wrote that grace and salvation and belief are all the gift of God!
The "it" refers back to salvation, not believing.

It appears the paraphrase that God creates believers confounds you
Why haven't you yet provided ANY verses that teach that God "creates believers"? Your posts prove that you are the confounded one.

so here are some passages on which the paraphrase are based in order to remedy that, provided God opens your eyes, John 3:3-8, Ezekiel 36:26, Matthew 18:3-4.
I'm not going to do your homework for you. Please actually quote the verse for everyone who reads this thread, so we'll all be on the same page. But I already know that none of these verses says anything about God creating believers.

I'll tell you what God creates; new creatures. Who are IN CHRIST. 2 Cor 5:17. Do you know HOW one becomes IN CHRIST? Through believing in Him. iow, those who are IN HIM, that being believers are new creatures. Nothing about creating believers.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19 which includes salvation)
Your repeated parentheses are factually untrue. John 15:19 is not about salvation. But you can wish whatever you want.
 
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bling

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The will of God is discussed in the Bible. It sounds like you are saying that God changes despite scripture stating God does not change (Malachi 3:6). Your argument is non-sequitor.

Free will imparted to mankind is abasent from scripture; therefore, man does not have a free will becuase to claim otherwise is to add to scripture.

It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6) as well as of the new Jerusalem "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27).
The will of man is also discussed, but as you point out "free will" is not discussed, but that means it is also not discussed for God either, which means by your logic: "God does not have free will."
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
"I guess sarcasm doesn't work well on your computer. I typed the "sure" with lots of sarcasm.

Since you took my sarcasm so literally, I hope and pray that my previous post has cleared all that up for you regarding what I believe about ol' Judas."
It sounds like you do not take eternal life seriously, based on your first sentence.
If you take my sarcasm at your faulty understanding of the Bible as not being serious about eternal life, why are we even discussing anything?

Your post was proved to be error repeatedly, yet also in my post #38 in this thread.
No, you only provided your opinion. There were no facts or evidence of any error on my part. We obviously understand Scripture differently, but you still haven't provided any verses that support your claims.

Still, as is clearly evident, you violated INCIDENT EXAMPLE THREE of the original post. You circled back to something that was already covered.
I "violated" nothing. Your posts aren't the law. And you aren't the authority.

Your action proves the original post of this thread true.
That is incredibly funny.

You keep trying to subtract God's exclusive choosing of man unto salvation to scripture and you try to a add man choosing God unto salvation to scripture.
You know that I've NEVER said anything about man "choosing God", so your whole argument is totally flawed.

My point has been ONLY THAT election isn't to salvation. And you still haven't proven otherwise. I have plenty of proof that I've been waiting to share. I first wanted to see your so-called evidence/proof. But it is clear by now you have none.

You have no scripture to support your claim.
Oh, thank you for the opportunity. I hope you are sitting down for this.

Examples of Election
1. Election of Christ: Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.
Matt 12:18 "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased; I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.
Luke 9:35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"
Luke 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.
1 Peter 2:6 For this is contained in Scripture: "Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him shall not be disappointed."
2. Election of Israel: Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities."
Deut 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
3. Election of Angels: 1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.
4. Election of the Church or body of Christ: Eph 1:4a just as He chose us (believers) in Him…
5. Other elections:
Paul: Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;
Apostles: John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.

These are the examples I have found in Scripture regarding election. What should be clear to you is that NONE of these examples included salvation.

Or, are you going to claim that Jesus Christ, the Elect One, was chosen for salvation?
Are you going to claim that angels were chosen or elected to salvation?
Are you going to claim that the entire nation of Israel was chosen to salvation? Just read the OT and figure it out.
Are you going to claim that Judas was chosen to savlation?

btw, Eph 1:4 says "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." So, who does the "us" refer to? Paul answers that question later on in chapter 1. v.19 - and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength

There it is; clear as crystal. God chose (elected) believers...to be holy and blameless. That is exactly what Eph 1:4 says.

Now, about the exclusive dominion of God in the salvation of man:
I'm not arguing that. Of course salvation is all of God's plan.

His plan is to offer salvation to mankind. All of them. And mankind's ONLY response to God's offer is to receive salvation.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

And please don't try the old saw about "all people" only means "all kinds of people". That bird don't fly.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Kermos,

Election is to service, not salvation.

I Jesus Christ is The Chosen One:

Matt 12:18 - “Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

Mark 10:45 - For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and give His life a ransom for many (the masses).

1 Pet 2:6 - For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

Isa 42:1 - “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.

Isa 43:10 - “You are My witnesses”, declares the Lord, “and My servant, whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after Me.”

Luke 9:35 - A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”

Luke 23:35 - The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”

Acts 3:13 - The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus. You handed Him over to be killed, and you disowned Him before Pilate, though he had decided to let Him go.

Acts 3:20 - and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus.

Acts 4:27 - Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against Your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed .

Acts 4:30 - Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.

Acts 10:42 - He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that He is the One whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.

Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Romans 15:8 - For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs

Eph 1:22 - And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,

Phil 2:7 - but made Himself nothing, taking on the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Heb 1:2 - but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Heb 2:17 - For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Heb 3:2 - He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God’s house.

Heb 3:2-6 compares Jesus with Moses as as faithful servant, who was appointed.

Heb 5:10 - God appointed him chief priest in the way Melchizedek was a priest.

Heb 7:28 - For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Heb 8:3 - Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this One ((Jesus) also to have something to offer.

Heb 10:7 - Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, my God.’ ”

Please each verse. A biblical "election" is an appointment to service. All these verses prove that Jesus Christ was elected to special service. Certainly not for salvation.

Stay tuned for more proof.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Kermos,

II The original 12 apostles were chosen/appointed for service:

Mark 3:14 - He appointed twelve that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach

John 6:70 - Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

Acts 1:2 - until the day He was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles He had chosen.

III Paul was elected to service:

Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Acts 20:24 - However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me - the gas of testifying to the gospel of God’s grace.

Acts 22:10 - "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’

Acts 22:14, 15 - 14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.

Acts 26:16 - ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.

Acts 27:23 - Last night an angel of the God whose I am and whom I serve stood beside me

Rom 1:9 - God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of His Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last nay God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you.

Rom 15:17 - Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God.

1 Cor 3:5 - What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.

1 Cor 4:1 - This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.

2 Cor 4:5 - For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.

2 Cor 11:8 - I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you.

Gal 1:10 - A I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Gal 1:16 - to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man

Eph 3:7,8,9 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of His power 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

Col 1:25 - I have become its (the Church) servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— direct reference to Acts 9:15

1 Tim 1:12 - I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.

1 Tim 2:7 - And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

2 Tim 1:11 - And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.

IV Angels were elected to service:

1 Tim 5:21 - I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

Heb 1:7 - In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”

Heb 1:14 - Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Rev 19:10 - At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

Rev 22:8,9 8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

These verses PROVE that election is for service. Paul's testimony is very clear about what he was chosen/appointed for.

Please notice that NONE of these verses even mention salvation.

You're welcome.
 
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TibiasDad

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First, this is a parable, so one needs to be careful when attempting to draw theology from parables. Lord Jesus declared plainly clear statements, and Lord Jesus declared parables.

And yet that is precisely what you have done throughout your reply to my post. If I were to take you seriously at this point, I would necessarily have to ignore the remainder of your reply! If I cannot take you seriously at this point, it gives me little foundation for giving credence to anything else you've presented.

This said, I would venture to say that Jesus saying "the Kingdom of heaven is like..." pretty much puts this in the realm of theology .

Lord Jesus addresses as to why He speaks in parables when He says "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted" (Matthew 13:11), yet this plainly clear statement of Jesus indicates that understanding the parables is "granted"; in other words, God grants eyes to see and ears to hear, that is, God grants understanding of the parables.

So what are you trying to say? That I, and those who, like me, disagree with your analysis of this and other scriptures, haven't been given eyes to see?

Second, we know the word "choose" and it's conjugates exist in Greek, but they do NOT occur in this passage UNTIL the final verse of "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14).

Okay, so what's your point?

Third, the greek word kaleo (Strong's Greek: 2564. καλέω (kaleó) -- to call) which has been translated as "invite" in the passage, but the definition of kaleo is "call".

The usage for kaleo is (a) I call, summon, invite, (b) I call, name.

You appear to be doing what many do and "choose" the definition that best suits your argument. Calvinists are always trying to turn Keleo into a calling, or summons that mandates, but BAG (and I believe its successor BDAG, the most critical and acclaimed lexicon available) cite keleo in Matt 22:3 as being the quintessential example of the meaning "invite". The verbial form in Matt 22:3 is only used twice in scripture, the other being Like 14:7, a similar scenic situation of a wedding event. Both the NIV and NAS render keleo as invite, as does the literal reading.
The adjective form of keleo in Matt 22:14, is translated equally as "invite", and Meyer's Commentary, with reference to this latter example, refers to this keleo as an invitation at least three times.

Kings summon poeple. If you think that an officially summoned person by a king is presented a discrectionary invitation (summons), then you do not have a concept of royalty because we find the results of rejecting the official summons of the king "The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city" (Matthew 22:7).

1) Of course, Kings summon people, he cannot summon a tree!

2) That a King summons people, does not necessarily mean that the recipients of the summons were legally required to go. I think you are conflating the necessity of a legal summons and a civic invitation.

3) Matt 22:4 Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5“But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

You will note that those for whom God’s wrath was pointed specifically at the "rest" who subsequently became"murderers", not the ones who "paid no attention [to the invitation] and went off—one to his field, another to his business."

Fourth, in the passage, ACTIONS are indicated for the people, not choices, but actions.
I hate to have to tell you this, but the choice to reject or accept an invitation is an action! An invitation to a wedding issues an Rsvp, to which, we will either choose to inform them of our acceptance or our choosing to decline (both of which are choosing to act).

Fifth, someone without the appropriate covering was summoned (called) (Matthew 22:11), yet the king identified a improperly covered person that did not belong at the banquet. The culmination establishes the reason which is "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14)

Either the man came knowing better or he came in ignorance; both of which he was accountable for. And there is no keleo in verse 11, which means you are adding to the word of God!

We believers are covered by the Blood of Christ, so the parable clearly shows that a person not covered by the Blood of Christ is cast into the outer darkness.
Eisegesis

King Jesus said "few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14), and this refers to an act of choosing by the King upon a person NOT a person choosing the King; therefore, we find consistency in the message of Lord Jesus when He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

No matter how you cut it, Kermos, be it in English idiom or Greek, the invitations went out, and some came and some rejected these invitations and this, by choice to react to the invitations extended them by the King as they did. And every action elicited a reaction from the King, either positive or negative.

Doug
 
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TibiasDad

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Well, let's just review some of the first section right here, TibiasDad.

Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

The Word of God indicates no based upon both scriptural text and context.

The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will.

  1. God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)
    AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree

    AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree

    YET a command does not convey ability (see also God's Commands Distinguished From Man's Ability)

    BUT the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "for in the day that you eat" - the "for" is promissory

    NOT a conditional logic construct such as "if in the day that you eat"

    IN fact, the English word "for" is translated from the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki)

    AND the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki) contains the meanings of these English words "that", "for", "when" (Strong's Hebrew: 3588. כִּ֗י (ki) -- that, for, when)

    THEREFORE the word "when" fits where the word "for" resides in Genesis 2:17

    THUS the phrase "when in the day that you eat" is an accurate translation for Genesis 2:17 (see also cross-referenceing the Hebrew word כִּ֗י [ki] definition via scripture with scripture providing the proof that [1] the translation deficiency of the word "if" for the Hebrew word כִּ֗י [ki] and [2] the translation efficiency of the word "when" for the Hebrew word כִּ֗י [ki] respecting the early chapters of Genesis)

    SO this confirms the promissory nature, the prophecy of man eating the fruit, with the word "for"/"when" in Genesis 2:17

    AND this imposes contextual certainty indicating God's foreknowledge over the matter described in Genesis 2:17

    SO there is no free will indicated for Adam

    AND the firm fact is established

    THAT God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)

  2. Attributes/Characteristics Compared And Contrasted
  3. The attribute of man being created in the image according to the likeness of God
    WITH a targeted result of logical deductive reasoning leveraging compare and contrast of attributes/facilities

    SINCE Adam was made in the image according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26)

    THEN some persons of the creation (creatures) argue that specific facility was given to Adam

    IN particular God willpowering purported "free will" into man during the creation of Adam (see also examining the words "freewill offering" in the Old Testament)

    THEN Adam could not have used free will to perform evil against God

    BECAUSE God will not use willpower in order to perform evil against God's self (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 92:15, Deuteronomy 32:4)

    THEREFORE it follows that Man could not use free will in order to perform evil against God
    1. The logical extension of free will on this basis results in man possessing expanded facilities beyond God's facilities
    2. God is Creator; on the other hand, man is creature
    3. Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.
    4. Scripture does not include the mention of endowing Adam with free will
    5. Man's free will is a precept of man (Matthew 15:9)
  4. Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world
    SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)

    AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13)

    THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)

    SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

    THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind

    SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden

    THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will

  5. The timeline of Adam knowing good and evil
    BEFORE Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

    THEN Adam and Eve knew not good and evil

    AFTER Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

    THEN Adam and Eve knew good and evil

    FOR the delineation is clarified when God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22)

    YET based on the Word of God saying "has become" recorded in Genesis 3:22

    THEN Adam did not know good and evil before eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

    SO Adam did not know good and evil when God issued the command "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die!" (Genesis 2:17)

    THEREFORE at the time of eating, Adam listened and followed the last that he heard about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

    WHICH Adam heard from Eve

    FOR God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17)

    SO Adam listened to Eve and Adam ate from the tree prior to knowing good and evil

    AND a person does good by obeying God; on the other hand, a person does evil by disobeying God

    SO free will choosing of good or choosing of evil is not the context

    AND action is the context

    SINCE good and evil are not known to Adam prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

    THEREFORE it follows that Adam was not endowed with the attribute of free will

  6. The pattern of "sight" around the time that Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
    AND these quotations are provided in sequential order - that is chronolgically accurate
    1. God's only command that carried a punishment was "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die" (Genesis 2:17)
      SEE the command and punishment are pronounced first

    2. "the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed" (Genesis 2:25)
      SEE that Adam and Eve were naked and they were unashamed in their "sight"

    3. "The serpent said to the woman, 'You surely will not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.'" (Genesis 3:4-5)
      SEE the word "eyes"

    4. "When the woman saw that the tree was good for food" (Genesis 3:6)
      SEE the word "saw"

    5. "and that it was a delight to the eyes" (Genesis 3:6)
      SEE the word "eyes"

    6. "and that the tree was desirable to make [one] wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate" (Genesis 3:6)
      SEE that Adam and Eve ate of the tree that was forbidden in the only command that carried a punishment

    7. "Then the eyes of both of them were opened" (Genesis 3:7)
      SEE the word "eyes"

    8. "and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings" (Genesis 3:7)
      SEE that Adam and Eve tried to conceal themselves, a first stage using fig leaves

    9. "They heard the sound of YHWH God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of YHWH God among the trees of the garden" (Genesis 3:8)
      SEE that Adam and Eve tried to conceal themselves, a second stage using the trees of the garden

      BUT during this second stage they tried to hide themselves from God's "sight"

    10. The visual acuity aspect of "sight" is VERY clear in the creation account
    11. These perceptive aspects of "sight" are VERY clear in the creation account (see also examining the word "saw" in Genesis 3:6)
      • "attention"
      • "thought"
      • "focal point"
    12. Linguistically, logically, and spiritually, "sight" in context indicates visual acuity and perception within the creation account
  7. The attribute of "joining" - marriage
    1. Lord Jesus says a topically very profound statement of "from the beginning of creation, [God] made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let no man separate." (Mark 10:6-9)
    2. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Christ and the Bride of Christ
    3. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to marriage between "male and female" (creatures both)
    4. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Adam and Eve, the man and the woman
    5. God does the joining, while, on the other hand, man and woman are only the joyful recipients
    6. The facility of "joining" is not attributed to man and/or woman
    7. The facility of "joining" is attributed to God
For expanded topic coverage, please see this integral essay Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor (not a ChristianForums.com link).

May the Lord abound mercy and understanding and strength and grace in we His own for the Day approaches rapidly!

I can only say again, too many words, too little relevance. Your enlongated response, in the first place, has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of my post; which implies that you have either not read my post and thus, perhaps, your reply was meant for someone else, or, you did read my post, and your information in the reply is an attempt to draw the conversation away from the actual point of my post. Either way, this does not look good on you.

But whatever happened, I will say unequivocally that I was not talking about Genesis chapter 1, whether Adam had free will, or who is responsible for "joining" a man and woman in marriage. Furthermore, my post had nothing to do with any particular biblical topic or argument at the time I wrote it!

So all your fussing about is irrelevant to what I have previously posted, and I will not foster such tactics by replying to their substance.

Doug
 
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Kermos

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They are not insulting. I highly suspect that you do NOT understand what it means.

Since you claim "yes", please define and explain the biblical meaning of "election".


The truth is that John 15 and being chosen is for bearing fruit. That's NOT salvation. Again, I highly suspect that you do NOT understand election. No Calvinist does.


I proved that between John 13 and 18:1, Jesus was with the remaining 11 disciples. I guess you didn't bother to read any of it. So it's you committing errors here.


Nice try, though. Just read the text.


The proof is that Judas LEFT the group in John 13:30 and Jesus left with "His disciples" to the garden, when Judas came back with the armed group to arrest Him.

But since this is all unfamiliar to you, what's the point in further discussion? I'm interested in discussing with people who are at least familiar with the texts.


Amen! Why do you think I am "evading this truth"?


So, are you going to argue that he was at the Last Supper too??


What about the Last Supper?


What you continue to fail to understand is that in both verses, the meaning of "chosen" is the SAME, which isn't about salvation.


Where is it "indicated"? You love to make claims, but come up short on evidence.


I explained what I meant. It was sarcasm. btw, it proves that Judas, though chosen, was NOT saved. Proving that election isn't about salvation.


Have you ever studied the 3 related words? Eklego the noun, eklektos the adjective, and eklegomai the verb. I've researched EVERY word in the NT and guess what! None of them relate to salvation. Zero.


You've demonstrating only that you don't understand what election is about.


No, your opinions are.


You can remove the parentheses, since it is factually untrue.


No, your opinion has. Which I strongly reject.


I've already noted that many unbelievers can correctly explain the gospel all the while rejecting it. So you are proven wrong again.


Again, I reject your opinions about what you think the Word of God means. I explained what Jesus meant. But you are free to reject whatever you want to reject.


You've proven nothing. Where is your evidence to back up your opinions?


The "it" refers back to salvation, not believing.


Why haven't you yet provided ANY verses that teach that God "creates believers"? Your posts prove that you are the confounded one.


I'm not going to do your homework for you. Please actually quote the verse for everyone who reads this thread, so we'll all be on the same page. But I already know that none of these verses says anything about God creating believers.

I'll tell you what God creates; new creatures. Who are IN CHRIST. 2 Cor 5:17. Do you know HOW one becomes IN CHRIST? Through believing in Him. iow, those who are IN HIM, that being believers are new creatures. Nothing about creating believers.


Your repeated parentheses are factually untrue. John 15:19 is not about salvation. But you can wish whatever you want.
You are dead wrong, there were at least 13 disciples of Jesus remaining with Jesus after Judas left.

The disciples specifically identified Matthias and Joseph as two men who "accompanied us all the time" - see that it is all the time they were with Jesus as described here:

"'Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." (Acts 1:21-23)

In the room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13).

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the twelve who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17.
 
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Kermos

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The will of man is also discussed, but as you point out "free will" is not discussed, but that means it is also not discussed for God either, which means by your logic: "God does not have free will."
Your argument is non-sequitor since "free will" is not indicated in scripture. You are pull a magicians illusion from your secret compartment (your heart) by your slight of hand, and you desperately try to apply it to scripture.

I wrote what I mean, and here is a reminder of that which I wrote:

The will of God is discussed in the Bible. It sounds like you are saying that God changes despite scripture stating God does not change (Malachi 3:6). Your argument is non-sequitor.

Free will imparted to mankind is abasent from scripture; therefore, man does not have a free will becuase to claim otherwise is to add to scripture.

It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6) as well as of the new Jerusalem "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
 
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Kermos

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I said:
"I guess sarcasm doesn't work well on your computer. I typed the "sure" with lots of sarcasm.

Since you took my sarcasm so literally, I hope and pray that my previous post has cleared all that up for you regarding what I believe about ol' Judas."

If you take my sarcasm at your faulty understanding of the Bible as not being serious about eternal life, why are we even discussing anything?


No, you only provided your opinion. There were no facts or evidence of any error on my part. We obviously understand Scripture differently, but you still haven't provided any verses that support your claims.


I "violated" nothing. Your posts aren't the law. And you aren't the authority.


That is incredibly funny.


You know that I've NEVER said anything about man "choosing God", so your whole argument is totally flawed.

My point has been ONLY THAT election isn't to salvation. And you still haven't proven otherwise. I have plenty of proof that I've been waiting to share. I first wanted to see your so-called evidence/proof. But it is clear by now you have none.


Oh, thank you for the opportunity. I hope you are sitting down for this.

Examples of Election
1. Election of Christ: Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.
Matt 12:18 "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased; I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.
Luke 9:35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"
Luke 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.
1 Peter 2:6 For this is contained in Scripture: "Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him shall not be disappointed."
2. Election of Israel: Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities."
Deut 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
3. Election of Angels: 1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.
4. Election of the Church or body of Christ: Eph 1:4a just as He chose us (believers) in Him…
5. Other elections:
Paul: Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;
Apostles: John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.

These are the examples I have found in Scripture regarding election. What should be clear to you is that NONE of these examples included salvation.

Or, are you going to claim that Jesus Christ, the Elect One, was chosen for salvation?
Are you going to claim that angels were chosen or elected to salvation?
Are you going to claim that the entire nation of Israel was chosen to salvation? Just read the OT and figure it out.
Are you going to claim that Judas was chosen to savlation?

btw, Eph 1:4 says "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." So, who does the "us" refer to? Paul answers that question later on in chapter 1. v.19 - and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength

There it is; clear as crystal. God chose (elected) believers...to be holy and blameless. That is exactly what Eph 1:4 says.


I'm not arguing that. Of course salvation is all of God's plan.

His plan is to offer salvation to mankind. All of them. And mankind's ONLY response to God's offer is to receive salvation.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

And please don't try the old saw about "all people" only means "all kinds of people". That bird don't fly.
Nonetheless, whether it's called sarcasm or literal, your convey that you you do not take eternal life seriously.

Eternal life is no joking matter, FreeGrace2.

Still, as is clearly evident, you violated INCIDENT EXAMPLE THREE of the original post. You circled back to freewillian error that was proved to be error - that is, the free willian claim that there were only eleven disciples with Jesus during the supper covered in John 13-17 yet in actuality there were at least thirteen disciples because of Matthias and Joseph as recorded in Acts 1:21-23.

Your "Examples of Election" have a variety of contexts.

As the Prophet Isaiah wrote (Isaiah 42:1), God put God's Spirit on God's Chosen One! Praise God! God's Chosen One will bring forth justice to the nations! Praise God!

FreeGrace2, in the very first Bible citation you provide, there is that God put God's Spirit on God's Chosen One as recorded by Isaiah.

Now, notice that you have a variety of elections that you enumerated, such as:
"Election of Christ"
"Election of Israel"
"Election of Angels"
"Election of the Church or body of Christ"
"Other elections"

In your enumeration, you demonstrate the importance of context.

Yet, as my next post indicates, you fail to understand the importance of context.

Respecting Ephesians 1:4 mentioning believers, as I've alread pointed out to you (here in post #18 in this thread, Lord Jesus says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), so, clearly, Jesus' words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is by/of/through God.

Respecting Titus 2:11, the Greek does not include the word "offer". Here is the accurate translation "For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men" (Titus 2:11, YLT). By the way, FreeGrace2, that verse does not mention free will.
 
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Kermos

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Kermos,

Election is to service, not salvation.

I Jesus Christ is The Chosen One:

Matt 12:18 - “Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

Mark 10:45 - For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and give His life a ransom for many (the masses).

1 Pet 2:6 - For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

Isa 42:1 - “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.

Isa 43:10 - “You are My witnesses”, declares the Lord, “and My servant, whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after Me.”

Luke 9:35 - A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”

Luke 23:35 - The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”

Acts 3:13 - The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus. You handed Him over to be killed, and you disowned Him before Pilate, though he had decided to let Him go.

Acts 3:20 - and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus.

Acts 4:27 - Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against Your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed .

Acts 4:30 - Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.

Acts 10:42 - He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that He is the One whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.

Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Romans 15:8 - For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs

Eph 1:22 - And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,

Phil 2:7 - but made Himself nothing, taking on the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Heb 1:2 - but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Heb 2:17 - For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Heb 3:2 - He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God’s house.

Heb 3:2-6 compares Jesus with Moses as as faithful servant, who was appointed.

Heb 5:10 - God appointed him chief priest in the way Melchizedek was a priest.

Heb 7:28 - For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Heb 8:3 - Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this One ((Jesus) also to have something to offer.

Heb 10:7 - Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, my God.’ ”

Please each verse. A biblical "election" is an appointment to service. All these verses prove that Jesus Christ was elected to special service. Certainly not for salvation.

Stay tuned for more proof.

Kermos,

II The original 12 apostles were chosen/appointed for service:

Mark 3:14 - He appointed twelve that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach

John 6:70 - Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

Acts 1:2 - until the day He was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles He had chosen.

III Paul was elected to service:

Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Acts 20:24 - However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me - the gas of testifying to the gospel of God’s grace.

Acts 22:10 - "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’

Acts 22:14, 15 - 14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.

Acts 26:16 - ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.

Acts 27:23 - Last night an angel of the God whose I am and whom I serve stood beside me

Rom 1:9 - God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of His Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last nay God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you.

Rom 15:17 - Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God.

1 Cor 3:5 - What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.

1 Cor 4:1 - This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.

2 Cor 4:5 - For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.

2 Cor 11:8 - I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you.

Gal 1:10 - A I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Gal 1:16 - to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man

Eph 3:7,8,9 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of His power 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

Col 1:25 - I have become its (the Church) servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— direct reference to Acts 9:15

1 Tim 1:12 - I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.

1 Tim 2:7 - And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

2 Tim 1:11 - And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.

IV Angels were elected to service:

1 Tim 5:21 - I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

Heb 1:7 - In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”

Heb 1:14 - Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Rev 19:10 - At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

Rev 22:8,9 8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

These verses PROVE that election is for service. Paul's testimony is very clear about what he was chosen/appointed for.

Please notice that NONE of these verses even mention salvation.

You're welcome.

When you wrote "Election is to service, not salvation", I declare that you impose your limits against the Word of God.

As I've mentioned before, I'm not a Calvinist.

I'm a Christian because I believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent. I believe that Jesus is the Word. I believe Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I believe Jesus is Lord. I believe Jesus is God. I love the Word of God, and I proclaim that which the Word of God states is Truth.

You fail to understand that context defines how choice is applied to the matter being discussed.

The Word of God states "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) which includes salvation because the world is being held over for judgement and destruction, that is, the world is condemned (2 Peter 3:7); therefore, when Lord Jesus chooses/elects us believers out of the world, He saves us.

Just prior to "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation), the Word of God states "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) which includes salvation and sanctification in what may have been the very same breath. Salvation because Lord Jesus repeats His words for clarity by saying "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). Sanctification because He extends His words, not excludes His meaning of salvation, but extends His words with "and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit" (John 15:16).

You mentioned "service". Let's look at service which is deeds.

The Word of God states "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21). A man's deeds, including the practice of Truth, are manifest as being wrought in God. Jesus did not say wrought in man, no, Jesus did say wrought in God.

Not a single verse you quoted excludes salvation from God's choosing. God's choosing is also God's electing. Choice and election are synonyms, and they may be used interchangably; moreover, the verb form of choose and elect, along with their respective conjugates, are synonyms, and they may be used interchangably.

Listen to the parable that Jesus told, and notice the conclusion He states while mentioning election.

"The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. Again he sent out other slaves saying, 'Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are [all] butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast."' But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. Then he said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 'Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find [there], invite to the wedding feast.' Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few [are] chosen." (Matthew 22:2-14).

There was someone at the wedding feast not being the elect by God for salvation.

God elects unto salvation. God elects unto good works - and works are called fruit as in fruit of the Spirit (John 3:3-8, Galation 5:22-23).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
 
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Kermos

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I can only say again, too many words, too little relevance. Your enlongated response, in the first place, has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of my post; which implies that you have either not read my post and thus, perhaps, your reply was meant for someone else, or, you did read my post, and your information in the reply is an attempt to draw the conversation away from the actual point of my post. Either way, this does not look good on you.

But whatever happened, I will say unequivocally that I was not talking about Genesis chapter 1, whether Adam had free will, or who is responsible for "joining" a man and woman in marriage. Furthermore, my post had nothing to do with any particular biblical topic or argument at the time I wrote it!

So all your fussing about is irrelevant to what I have previously posted, and I will not foster such tactics by replying to their substance.

Doug
Too many words you say! No, it sounds to me like you just try to escape from the Word of God.

You wrote "Your enlongated response, in the first place, has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of my post", so let's just venture back to your said post. In your other post you wrote "This was my thought when I followed the link given; my first reaction after scrolling through who knows how many pages, was of Jesus's words in Matthew 6:7 about the pagan practices in prayer, saying: "And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words." I think this principle applies to our argumentation, teaching and preaching as well. The foundational truths are always simply stated. I remember an anecdotal story of John Wesley allegedly sitting a five year old down and reading his sermon to him saying, "if I say something you don't understand, stop me!" Now I'm not certain of the veracity of this story, but it has a good point. The Kiss method is what helps me, keep it short and simple!" (your post #25 in this thread).

That was you complaining about many words.

Matthew chapter 5 through and including chapter 7 is a profound oration by the Master Orator!

John chapter 13 through and including chapter 17 is a profound oration with prayer by the Master Orator!

Hmm, those are many words that Jesus, my Lord and my God, spoke in succession!

It sounds like you are claiming that is too much for you, TibiasDad.

You argue that man can choose God, but that is contrary to the Word of God.

The Word of God states "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) which includes salvation because the world is being held over for judgement and destruction, that is, the world is condemned (2 Peter 3:7); therefore, when Lord Jesus chooses/elects us believers out of the world, He saves us.

Just prior to "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation), the Word of God states "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) which includes salvation and sanctification in what may have been the very same breath. Salvation because Lord Jesus repeats His words for clarity by saying "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). Sanctification because He extends His words, not excludes His meaning of salvation, but extends His words with "and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit" (John 15:16).
 
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Kermos

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And yet that is precisely what you have done throughout your reply to my post. If I were to take you seriously at this point, I would necessarily have to ignore the remainder of your reply! If I cannot take you seriously at this point, it gives me little foundation for giving credence to anything else you've presented.

This said, I would venture to say that Jesus saying "the Kingdom of heaven is like..." pretty much puts this in the realm of theology .



So what are you trying to say? That I, and those who, like me, disagree with your analysis of this and other scriptures, haven't been given eyes to see?



Okay, so what's your point?



You appear to be doing what many do and "choose" the definition that best suits your argument. Calvinists are always trying to turn Keleo into a calling, or summons that mandates, but BAG (and I believe its successor BDAG, the most critical and acclaimed lexicon available) cite keleo in Matt 22:3 as being the quintessential example of the meaning "invite". The verbial form in Matt 22:3 is only used twice in scripture, the other being Like 14:7, a similar scenic situation of a wedding event. Both the NIV and NAS render keleo as invite, as does the literal reading.
The adjective form of keleo in Matt 22:14, is translated equally as "invite", and Meyer's Commentary, with reference to this latter example, refers to this keleo as an invitation at least three times.



1) Of course, Kings summon people, he cannot summon a tree!

2) That a King summons people, does not necessarily mean that the recipients of the summons were legally required to go. I think you are conflating the necessity of a legal summons and a civic invitation.

3) Matt 22:4 Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5“But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

You will note that those for whom God’s wrath was pointed specifically at the "rest" who subsequently became"murderers", not the ones who "paid no attention [to the invitation] and went off—one to his field, another to his business."


I hate to have to tell you this, but the choice to reject or accept an invitation is an action! An invitation to a wedding issues an Rsvp, to which, we will either choose to inform them of our acceptance or our choosing to decline (both of which are choosing to act).



Either the man came knowing better or he came in ignorance; both of which he was accountable for. And there is no keleo in verse 11, which means you are adding to the word of God!


Eisegesis



No matter how you cut it, Kermos, be it in English idiom or Greek, the invitations went out, and some came and some rejected these invitations and this, by choice to react to the invitations extended them by the King as they did. And every action elicited a reaction from the King, either positive or negative.

Doug
Context, TibiasDad, is crucial.

Respecting the parable including the "wedding feast" recorded in Luke 14:7-11, He is speaking in more generic terms because the Luke 14:7-11 parable contains the word "someone" as compared with the Matthew 22:1-14 parable containing the word "king" with respect to hosting a wedding feast, so the consequences of selfishness within the Assembly of God are exposed.

Respecting the parable including the "wedding feast" recorded in Matthew 22:1-14, He is talking specifically about a wedding feast under the control of a king, so the consequences of not being chosen by God within the Kingdom of God is exposed.

Men are fallable, the Greek word kaleo means "call, invite, summons". Men without eyes to see the Truth (John 14:6) try to diminish the meaning of kaleo as it relates to kingship. Lord Jesus is King of the Kingdom of God. You wrote "Rsvp" - to reserve a spot, but there is not mention of that in the parable - you are adding the concept and by extension the word "Rsvp".

When a king summons people, it is officially and authoritatively binding. Notice, that Jesus said "they were unwilling to come" - not that they chose not to come - but that they were unwilling to com. The difference being that their state of being was flesh (Paul writes about the negativity of the flesh) as in unwillingness to come to the king.

There was someone at the wedding feast not being the elect by God for salvation. It sounds to me like you are saying that soemone chose to be there at the feast. Notice, TibiasDad, that the king rejected that someone as not being chosen. This is NOT, as you pointed out, this is not one of "the ones who 'paid no attention [to the invitation] and went off-one to his field, another to his business.'" early in the parable, that someone was cast into "the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth".

As you can see, even if that someone chose to go to the feast, then that someone was rejected; nonetheless, the entire parable does not indicate choice by any of the non-king people.

When you wrote "I hate to have to tell you this, but the choice to reject or accept an invitation is an action", there you confuse choice with fruit. Fruit is action. Choice is a selection. Action is inequal to choice.

Lord Jesus says "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). You seem to think that a person can choose God apart from Jesus, and that is denial of the very Word of God. Behold, the word of God includes fruit in His discourse here "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

You wrote "Eisegesis", Wow, you deny the covering of the Blood of Jesus Who says "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood" (Luke 22:20).

No matter how you cut it, there is no mention of choice in the parable. Fruit, be it fruit of the flesh or fruit of the Spirit, is mentioned in the parable and conclusion recorded in Matthew 22:2-14.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I asked:
"Since you claim "yes", please define and explain the biblical meaning of "election"."
You are dead wrong, there were at least 13 disciples of Jesus remaining with Jesus after Judas left.
You need to answer questions. That was the discussion.

But, your math is quite off. When Jesus spent His last evening and Supper, there were 12 disciples at the beginning, and after Judas left, we all know that 2 more didn't show up. Please read the text more carefully.

Matt 26-
17 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”
18 He replied, “Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, ‘The Teacher says: My appointed time is near. I am going to celebrate the Passover with my disciples at your house.’” 19 So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them and prepared the Passover. 20 When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve.

The disciples specifically identified Matthias and Joseph as two men who "accompanied us all the time" - see that it is all the time they were with Jesus as described here:

"'Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." (Acts 1:21-23)
Just read Matt 26:20.

In the room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13).
Read Matt 26:20.

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the twelve who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17.
Wrong. No one other than "the twelve" were "specificially identified" at the supper.

And, If for some reason you don't like ex-tax collectors, how about Mark?

Mark 14-
12 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”
13 So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, “Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him.
14 Say to the owner of the house he enters, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’
15 He will show you a large room upstairs, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there.”
16 The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.
17 When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve.

If you don't like those who abandon others, then consider Luke the physician.

Luke 22-
7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.
8 Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover.”
9 “Where do you want us to prepare for it?” they asked.
10 He replied, “As you enter the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him to the house that he enters,
11 and say to the owner of the house, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is the guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’
12 He will show you a large room upstairs, all furnished. Make preparations there.”
13They left and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.
14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table.

If these 3 verses don't convince you, how about this:

Matt 10-
These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

The Bible only identified 12 as apostles before Jesus was resurrected.

Luke 6:13- When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles:

So, there were 12 disciples/apostles at the last supper. And one left, named Judas. So, there were just 11 left.

I rest my case.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Nonetheless, whether it's called sarcasm or literal, your convey that you you do not take eternal life seriously.
You need to lighten up some.

Eternal life is no joking matter, FreeGrace2.
You also need to learn what sarcasm is for.

Still, as is clearly evident, you violated INCIDENT EXAMPLE THREE of the original post. You circled back to freewillian error that was proved to be error - that is, the free willian claim that there were only eleven disciples with Jesus during the supper covered in John 13-17 yet in actuality there were at least thirteen disciples because of Matthias and Joseph as recorded in Acts 1:21-23.
Ha. In my previous post, I proved that there were ONLY 12 apostles at the last supper.

Your "Examples of Election" have a variety of contexts.
Of course they do. But the overarching FACT is that in EVERY context, the issue is service, NOT salvation.

As the Prophet Isaiah wrote (Isaiah 42:1), God put God's Spirit on God's Chosen One! Praise God! God's Chosen One will bring forth justice to the nations! Praise God!
Yes, Jesus Christ is the Chosen One to provide salvation. This is a choice for service, not salvation. Or are you going to argue that Jesus was chosen for salvation??

FreeGrace2, in the very first Bible citation you provide, there is that God put God's Spirit on God's Chosen One as recorded by Isaiah.
Proving that Jesus was chosen for service to God.

How many verses would you like to read that refer to Jesus as Servant?

Now, notice that you have a variety of elections that you enumerated, such as:
"Election of Christ"
"Election of Israel"
"Election of Angels"
"Election of the Church or body of Christ"
"Other elections"

In your enumeration, you demonstrate the importance of context.
Yes. Thank you.

Yet, as my next post indicates, you fail to understand the importance of context.

Respecting Ephesians 1:4 mentioning believers, as I've alread pointed out to you (here in post #18 in this thread, Lord Jesus says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), so, clearly, Jesus' words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is by/of/through God.
How about STAYING in the context of Eph 1? John 6:29 is not being referred to in Eph 1.

And Eph 1:19 DEFINES who the "us" are in v.4. I'm not going to quote either verse. I expect you to do some research.

Respecting Titus 2:11, the Greek does not include the word "offer". Here is the accurate translation "For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men" (Titus 2:11, YLT). By the way, FreeGrace2, that verse does not mention free will.
Gee. Who knew? By "manifested", it should be rather obvious that the verse shows that salvation was made obvious to everyone. If that isn't an offer, then you just don't understand what an offer even is.

Here's a question for you. If God ONLY chose to save certain people, why would He manifest saving grace to everyone? Calvinism cannot provide any kind of reasonable answer to this question. The ONLY REASONABLE answer is that saving grace has been manifested to everyone because Christ died for everyone, and everyone has the choice of accepting the free grace of eternal life or not.

But I'm sure you'll come up with some kind of non-sensical explanation.
 
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FreeGrace2

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When you wrote "Election is to service, not salvation", I declare that you impose your limits against the Word of God.
Oh, you just sound so authorative. Yet, you have no authority to such silliness. I'm NOT limiting God in any way. Rather, I'm revealing God's Word. In EVERY example, the election is to service.

And, despite your claims to the contrary, you have NOT shown ANY verse that says people are chosen for salvation unconditionally.

As I've mentioned before, I'm not a Calvinist.
It doesn't matter what you claim. Your views are directly Calvinist.

I'm a Christian because I believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent. I believe that Jesus is the Word. I believe Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I believe Jesus is Lord. I believe Jesus is God. I love the Word of God, and I proclaim that which the Word of God states is Truth.
And I believe these same things. But regarding your view of election, it IT definitely Calvinistic.

You fail to understand that context defines how choice is applied to the matter being discussed.
Then just prove that in each of the examples I noted, the context shows that election is for salvation. That should be rather easy, if the contexts are about that.

The Word of God states "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) which includes salvation because the world is being held over for judgement and destruction, that is, the world is condemned (2 Peter 3:7); therefore, when Lord Jesus chooses/elects us believers out of the world, He saves us.
What you fail to understand is that by electing/choosing believers out of the world, they are ALREADY saved. All believers are saved, if you didn't know that.

So, once again, you just proved my view, and refuted your own.

Just prior to "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation), the Word of God states "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) which includes salvation and sanctification in what may have been the very same breath.
You can keep repeating "which includes salvation" as much as you want. But no amount of repetition makes your claim true. You cannot prove your claim. All you've done is repeat your claim.

I've proven BY EXAMPLES in Scripture, that election is for service.

Jesus doesn't need salvation.
The entire nation of Israel was never saved.
The Bible makes no statements at all about angels needing salvation.
In the NT, it is believers (the "us" of 1:4) that are the one chosen.
Even Paul's famous road to Damascus encounter was FOR SERVICE.

Acts 9-
15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.
16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”

The red words are NOT about salvation, but about service. Specifically, evangelism.

And Paul himself describes the event in his personal testimony as being appointed to service:

Acts 20:24 - However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me - the task of testifying to the gospel of God’s grace.

Acts 22:10 - "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’

Acts 22:14, 15 - 14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.

Acts 26:16 - ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.

Acts 27:23 - Last night an angel of the God whose I am and whom I serve stood beside me

Rom 1:9 - God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of His Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last nay God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you.

Rom 15:17 - Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God.

1 Cor 3:5 - What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.

1 Cor 4:1 - This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.

2 Cor 4:5 - For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.

2 Cor 11:8 - I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you.

Gal 1:10 - A I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Gal 1:16 - to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man

Eph 3:7,8,9 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of His power 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s
people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

Col 1:25 - I have become its (the Church) servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— direct reference to Acts 9:15

1 Tim 1:12 - I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.

1 Tim 2:7 - And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

2 Tim 1:11 - And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.

Salvation because Lord Jesus repeats His words for clarity by saying "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).
You may stop repeating your mantra. Jesus chose the 11 saved apostles "out of this world". He certainly didn't choose Judas "out of this world". When He said the words of John 15:19, He was speaking to 11 apostles.

Sanctification because He extends His words, not excludes His meaning of salvation, but extends His words with "and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit" (John 15:16).
Bearing fruit is directly about service to God.

You mentioned "service". Let's look at service which is deeds.

The Word of God states "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21). A man's deeds, including the practice of Truth, are manifest as being wrought in God. Jesus did not say wrought in man, no, Jesus did say wrought in God.

Not a single verse you quoted excludes salvation from God's choosing.
Again, this is merely your opinion. How about addressing EACH of the verses above regarding Paul's encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus and explain where salvation is included in his being a chosen instrument.

The words "chosen instrument" proves that election is for service. Instruments serve the one using the instrument.

God's choosing is also God's electing. Choice and election are synonyms, and they may be used interchangably; moreover, the verb form of choose and elect, along with their respective conjugates, are synonyms, and they may be used interchangably.
And none of this advanced your own opinions. Not even a wee bit.

Listen to the parable that Jesus told, and notice the conclusion He states while mentioning election.

"The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. Again he sent out other slaves saying, 'Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are [all] butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast."' But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. Then he said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 'Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find [there], invite to the wedding feast.' Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few [are] chosen." (Matthew 22:2-14).

There was someone at the wedding feast not being the elect by God for salvation.
OK, let's take this parable in its OBVIOUS presentation. The kingdom of heaven would be heaven itself. And both bad and good people were invited to it. iow, the gospel is for everyone, not just the "good", but also the "bad". And one dude actually got in who was improperly dressed. If your interpretation was true, then we have an unbeliever IN heaven itself. This is sheer nonsense.

I conclude you do not understand Oriental and ancient weddings. The groom's father (a king or high ranking person) would provide the wedding clothes to the guests. They were expected to wear them to the wedding. Those who didn't wear them in the parable refer to believers who weren't obedient. Didn't follow the rules.

Now, v.22. Many are called (invited) but few are chosen (selected). This means all believers are invited to serve their Savior, but only a few actually do so.

God elects unto salvation.
You may repeat this as many times as you can, but it doesn't change a thing. You have so far provided ZERO verses that make this statement.

God elects unto good works - and works are called fruit as in fruit of the Spirit (John 3:3-8, Galation 5:22-23).
Thanks for making my point. God chooses/elects for good works. That is service.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16)
Apparently you don't understand this. In Jesus' day, rabbis didn't choose their students (disciples). People chose to whom they would follow. So what Jesus did was not only highly unusual, but totally opposite of the custom of the day.

So Jn 15:16 is emphasizing that what Jesus did was opposite of the usual custom.
 
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TibiasDad

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Too many words you say! No, it sounds to me like you just try to escape from the Word of God.

You wrote "Your enlongated response, in the first place, has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of my post", so let's just venture back to your said post. In your other post you wrote "This was my thought when I followed the link given; my first reaction after scrolling through who knows how many pages, was of Jesus's words in Matthew 6:7 about the pagan practices in prayer, saying: "And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words." I think this principle applies to our argumentation, teaching and preaching as well. The foundational truths are always simply stated. I remember an anecdotal story of John Wesley allegedly sitting a five year old down and reading his sermon to him saying, "if I say something you don't understand, stop me!" Now I'm not certain of the veracity of this story, but it has a good point. The Kiss method is what helps me, keep it short and simple!" (your post #25 in this thread).

That was you complaining about many words.

Matthew chapter 5 through and including chapter 7 is a profound oration by the Master Orator!

John chapter 13 through and including chapter 17 is a profound oration with prayer by the Master Orator!

Hmm, those are many words that Jesus, my Lord and my God, spoke in succession!

It sounds like you are claiming that is too much for you, TibiasDad.

You argue that man can choose God, but that is contrary to the Word of God.

The Word of God states "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) which includes salvation because the world is being held over for judgement and destruction, that is, the world is condemned (2 Peter 3:7); therefore, when Lord Jesus chooses/elects us believers out of the world, He saves us.

Just prior to "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation), the Word of God states "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) which includes salvation and sanctification in what may have been the very same breath. Salvation because Lord Jesus repeats His words for clarity by saying "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). Sanctification because He extends His words, not excludes His meaning of salvation, but extends His words with "and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit" (John 15:16).

As I've said before, my comments were only about the link that you posted as evidence, which appears to be where you've cut and pasted many of your remarks in this thread. The endless points and subpoints therein are a series of propositional statements that assume points of reference and evidence not established. In other words they are circular statements that assume the truth that you are seeking to prove to be truth by means of said statements. I have no issue with scripture in any amount, I do have issues with your "many words" without substantiation of their veracity.

As an aside, I searched the One Spirit and One Heart in God - Table of Contents site in an attempt to understand the source of this information and was only able to deduce the it is an Assembly of God site but without any specific person or denominational ownership accredited to it, so the source behind the site is ambiguous, and thus to my mind, not a credible source of information.

John 15 is spoken to the remaining 11 disciples after Judas Iscariot left. And the 12 were often separated from the rest of the followers, and Peter, James and John were often pulled aside from the other nine disciples. So the argument that Mathias and Joseph were always at every event is easily falsified. (Matt 10:1, 11:1,17:2, Luke 9:1, Mk 6:7, 9:2,35)

Doug
 
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bling

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Your argument is non-sequitor since "free will" is not indicated in scripture. You are pull a magicians illusion from your secret compartment (your heart) by your slight of hand, and you desperately try to apply it to scripture.

I wrote what I mean, and here is a reminder of that which I wrote:

The will of God is discussed in the Bible. It sounds like you are saying that God changes despite scripture stating God does not change (Malachi 3:6). Your argument is non-sequitor.

Free will imparted to mankind is abasent from scripture; therefore, man does not have a free will becuase to claim otherwise is to add to scripture.

It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6) as well as of the new Jerusalem "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
I never said: “Scripture says: ‘man has free will’” You point out “God has a will”, but scripture also talks about man’s will and man’s desires which are not God’s will and desires.

You quote: “…those also who believe in Me through their word” gives all the indications of it being man’s choice.

I ask you again: “What scripture do you use to proof God has free will?”
 
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5thKingdom

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Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.

After corresponding and speaking with free-willians about the scriptural errancy of free will, a trend emerges about interpretations.

Free-willians cry foul when I interpret free-willian's writings, yet free-willians manipulatively interpret free will into the Word of God imagining that it's acceptable.

Because of this, free-willians exhibit hypocrisy.

Free-willians express the concept to God: do as I say, not as I do.

I accurately paraphrase and restate the writings of free-willians to demonstrate their error; on the other hand, free-willians add to and subtract from scripture to fabricate their free will foundation, and this is demonstratable.

INCIDENT EXAMPLE ONE

For example, a free willian wrote that "I could refute it all, but you've shown that would be a waste of time" thus essentially writing that discussing scripture was "a waste of time", so I paraphrased the free willian by indicating the free willian called discussing scripture worthless. The free-willian later called it "complete misrepresentation", yet the free-willian not once cited scripture for the free-willian's unsupported promotion of free will for Adam in the subject thread, so hypocrisy manifests. The free-willian takes offense at my interpretation of the free-willian's writings, but the free-willian thinks that God just needs to take the free-willian's interpretation of scripture.

Discussing scripture is not "a waste of time".

The Word of God does not return void (Isaiah 55:11).

The Word of God is good for correction (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

The Word of God will never pass away (Matthew 24:35).

The Word of God is the Power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16).

The free-willian fails to understand about the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).
INCIDENT EXAMPLE TWO

In another incident as an example, another free-willian quoted commentary which I pointed out the superiority and importance of scripture to wit the free-willian replied "I DO NOT QUOTE COMMENTARIES", so instead of acknowledging the free-willian's use of commentary the free-willian denied using commentary in a traceable lie in the thread.
INCIDENT EXAMPLE THREE

In yet a third example, free willians rarely acknowledge correction about their misinterpreted scripture. Very frequently they disappear from a thread, go silent about the subject, or switch subjects - in some cases circling back to repeat their exposed error. A different free-willian acknowledged the free-willian's misinterpretation of scripture with "I can see that you have found room to squirm around Rev. 22:17" after the free willian misinterpretation was exposed. That free willian response sounds quite unrepentant for trying to alter Revelation 22:17.
In the pride of free-willian claimed choice toward God, they are unapologetic for their exposed errors again and again. Exposed by the Word of God, yet they are not only unapologetic to God for trying to abuse the Word of God, but they appear unrepentant in their pride. The proud will fall in the last day without the intervention of the Sovereign Lord (Proverbs 16:18, 2 Peter 2:9-10).

Free-willians exhibit more than hypocrisy that angers God, their free will foundation is shifting sand (Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 7:26-27).

Lord Jesus railed against hypocrites when the Word of God says "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence" (Matthew 23:25, more Matthew 23:13-36).

Many Biblical passages express the evil of man altering scripture, including Revelation 22:18-19.

The Sovereignty of God in man's salvation with no basis in man's choice is absolutely evident when taking scripture with scripture as is prudent, and it is done in this essay: Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor

SCRIPTURE CROSS REFERENCING

Cross referencing scripture functions in this manner.

Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

In the same passage, Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), so Jesus' words include salvation in the passage.

Jesus uses "you" to refer to all believers in all time for many reasons, including that after the ascension of Jesus the Apostle Peter spoke of the Gentiles when he said to the apostles and brethren "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 11:16), and Lord Jesus told the "you" at the same time as John 15:16 and John 15:19 with His words of "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; [that is] the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, [but] you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you" (John 14:26-27).

The sequence, John 15:16 - John 15:19 - Acts 11:16 - John 14:26:27, ties everything together, so this is a first avenue for man's inability to choose Jesus.

Investigating a separate avenue of bringing God's exclusive choosing of man unto salvation is the passage:

"When the disciples heard [this], they were very astonished and said, 'Then who can be saved?' And looking at [them] Jesus said to them, 'With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'" (Matthew 19:25-26). This exchange exposes that man cannot "do" something to be saved, and that "do" includes man "doing" a choosing of Jesus.

The correlation between John 15:16 - John 15:19 - Matthew 19:25-26 ties everything together, so this is a second avenue for man's inability to choose Jesus.

This concludes the cross referencing scripture example.
God saves (Psalm 3:8, John 15:5), and man has no say in the matter (John 15:16). God sanctifies (Leviticus 20:8, John 15:5). God gets all glory in the salvation and sanctification of man (Isaiah 42:8).

God declares Who God is by the Word of God.

Humility is contrary to free will because free will includes a person exercising a choice, so there is pride in the claim of being able to choose.

Do you think a free willian can stick to scripture and remain a free willian?

-----------


In John 6 Jesus teaches that NO MAN can come to Him
unless the Father first "draws" them. And ALL MEN the
Father draws "shall come" to Him... and He will lose NONE
of "His Sheep")

When the disciples realized that Jesus was teaching
salvation by "election" many of them abandoned Him
[John 6:65-66]


Now WHY in the world would anyone abandon the Son of God?
The answer is obvious (like most men today) they did not WANT
a Sovereign God. They wanted a salvation program where MAN
is Sovereign (not God). They wanted a plan where MAN could
choose when/where/how they are saved.

Joh 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me
draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;
and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me,
that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,
but should raise it up again at the last day.

Generally speaking there are TWO GOSPELS in the church.

(1) The Gospel that says God is Sovereign and "elects"
who He chooses. And Jesus PAID for all the sins of
"His Sheep". So their debt is PAID and there is no
condemnation for "His Sheep".

(2) The gospel that says Jesus PAID for the sins of everyone
ever born (even those who never hear the Gospel) and MEN
in the Lake of Fire are there because (a) they must PAY for
the same sins that Jesus paid - making the Atonement of
no effect or (b) they are paying for the SINGLE SIN of not
"accepting" Jesus.

But the Bible is clear that men must pay for their own sins
(every idle word) and even their sinful thoughts. So option
(b) is not even a possibility. Therefore, the Atonement was
not effective (or at least conditional on MAN'S "work")
of "accepting" or "rejecting" Christ.

BTW... the mental process of "accepting" or "rejecting"
is definitely a "work". It's not a work like digging ditches
but it's a mental work - and many people make a living by
"working" making decisions.



/
 
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