Jesus's resurrection

rwb · Jun 21, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Well I've now done my own study of the Greek words egeiro and anastasis, and have now also searched all (each and every one of) the New Testament passages and verses containing the English words rise again, risen, resurrection, raised etc, and all reference to the resurrection in the New Testament wherever they are found in the New Testament and have found the reading of a "spiritual resurrection" into (eisegesis) the New Testament's statements regarding our birth from above by the Spirit, and our resurrection from the dead, to be 100% false, 100% eisegesis, and, 0% Christianity;

and since I always choose to believe only the Word of God, I won't be wasting time reading your long, long, long "dissertations" in this regard, or replying to them.

By the way, it's totally clear and plain what anastasis (resurrection) refers to in the New Testament each and every time the word appears; and it's totally clear and plain in all the passages and verses containing the Greek word egeiro, and in all references to being raised up, and in all references to the resurrection from the dead (without exception) that the verses (as well as the Greek word egeiro) are either not referring to any "resurrection" at all, or are referring to the Lord's bodily resurrection from the dead, or are referring to the future bodily resurrection of those who have been born from above by the Spirit of Christ and have been buried with Him and raised with Him because they are IN Him.

Which proves once again that neither historic Christian teaching/historic Christian understanding, nor Pastors and teachers necessarily know what they are talking about when they "espouse" the scriptures, but are, in certain respects, instead often espousing nothing but their own eisegesis of the scriptures which, as in this case and your false claims regarding a "spiritual resurrection" is 100% false, 100% eisegesis and 0% Christianity.

It's no wonder Jesus said,

Mat 23:8 But you must not be called Rabbi, for One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers.
Matt 23:9 And call no one your father on the earth, for One is your Father in Heaven.
Matt 23:10 Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ.

Not meaning to butt-in to on going dialog, so I hope you won't mind answering a few questions?

The spirit of Christ, as in all mankind is His rational soul, or that which gave Him the breath of life. As Christ died He said to His Father, "into thy hands I commend my spirit", then He died. Commend means to place for safe keeping, or present, trust, deposit with the Father the essence of who He is.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Would you agree, that like Jesus in death, the spirit, or living soul of believers go to be with the Father in heaven? If you agree they do, what makes it possible for believers spirits, as living souls to go to the Father in death? This is true only of believers. In death unbelievers go into the grave to wait in silence and darkness until the bodily resurrection on the last day. Believers are not among the dead who go down into silence.

Psalm 115:17 (KJV) The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

sovereigngrace · Jun 21, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Well I've now done my own study of the Greek words egeiro and anastasis, and have now also searched all (each and every one of) the New Testament passages and verses containing the English words rise again, risen, resurrection, raised etc, and all reference to the resurrection in the New Testament wherever they are found in the New Testament and have found the reading of a "spiritual resurrection" into (eisegesis) the New Testament's statements regarding our birth from above by the Spirit, and our resurrection from the dead, to be 100% false, 100% eisegesis, and, 0% Christianity;

and since I always choose to believe only the Word of God, I won't be wasting time reading your long, long, long "dissertations" in this regard, or replying to them.

By the way, it's totally clear and plain what anastasis (resurrection) refers to in the New Testament each and every time the word appears; and it's totally clear and plain in all the passages and verses containing the Greek word egeiro, and in all references to being raised up, and in all references to the resurrection from the dead (without exception) that the verses (as well as the Greek word egeiro) are either not referring to any "resurrection" at all, or are referring to the Lord's bodily resurrection from the dead, or are referring to the future bodily resurrection of those who have been born from above by the Spirit of Christ and have been buried with Him and raised with Him because they are IN Him.

Which proves once again that neither historic Christian teaching/historic Christian understanding, nor Pastors and teachers necessarily know what they are talking about when they "espouse" the scriptures, but are, in certain respects, instead often espousing nothing but their own eisegesis of the scriptures which, as in this case and your false claims regarding a "spiritual resurrection" is 100% false, 100% eisegesis and 0% Christianity.

It's no wonder Jesus said,

Mat 23:8 But you must not be called Rabbi, for One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers.
Matt 23:9 And call no one your father on the earth, for One is your Father in Heaven.
Matt 23:10 Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ.

You are just voicing your own bias personal opinion. That opinion has been shown repeatedly to be wrong. That opinion carefully steers around the repeated Scriptures presented that prove the opposite of what you are claiming. The reason why you or no Premillennialist will address this is because it exposes the whole Premillennial doctrine. It shows it to be faulty. It shows it to be flawed. Until you address the evidence we can only conclude that the Scriptures refute your claims.

Zao is life · Jun 21, 2020

rwb said:
The spirit of Christ, as in all mankind is His rational soul, or that which gave Him the breath of life. As Christ died He said to His Father, "into thy hands I commend my spirit", then He died. Commend means to place for safe keeping, or present, trust, deposit with the Father the essence of who He is.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

When God breathed life into Adam, he became a living soul (psuche):

1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, was made a living soul (psuche)," the last Adam was a life-giving Spirit (pneuma).

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (nephesh in Hebrew: soul).

Jesus had a spirit and a soul:

Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, "My soul (psuche) is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me."

¶And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit (pneuma):" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost (ekpneo).

Pet 3:18 For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit (pneuma);
1Pet 3:19 in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,

The Spirit of Christ was with Him in hades, enabling Him to preach. He was also raised by the Holy Spirit (His Spirit). Nevertheless He placed His Spirit in God's hands when He died.

Christ had a soul (psuche) and a Spirit (pneuma), and by the Spirit (pneuma) He preached in hades to the souls in prison.

Christ's body was dead and buried in a tomb. He breathed out the ghost. Did His Spirit die?

1. Can the Holy Spirit die?

2. How did Christ preach By the Spirit when He descended into hades?

3. Does the scripture say that when He commended His Spirit to God that His Spirit left Him? Or did He breathe out the ghost or the soul?

rwb said:
Would you agree, that like Jesus in death, the spirit, or living soul of believers go to be with the Father in heaven? If you agree they do, what makes it possible for believers spirits, as living souls to go to the Father in death? This is true only of believers. In death unbelievers go into the grave to wait in silence and darkness until the bodily resurrection on the last day. Believers are not among the dead who go down into silence.

Psalm 115:17 (KJV) The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, was made a living soul (psuche)," the last Adam was a life-giving Spirit (pneuma).

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (nephesh in Hebrew: soul).

1. Did Adam die spiritually when he ate of the fruit he was forbidden to eat of?

2. Was Christ born with only a body and soul only (ike us)? Or was He Spirit, soul and body?

That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born from above of the Spirit, is Spirit.

3. When and how does any other human aside from Christ receive a spirit (pneuma)? Is this when he is born of the Spirit from above, or before?

4. Would humans be able to be with God in heaven if they are not in Christ?

5. Do humans have to be born of the Spirit to be in Christ?

6. How does the following come about, in respect of humans who were not born Spirit, soul and body, like Christ was?

1 Thess 5:23 And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you, and may your whole spirit (pneuma) and soul (psuche) and body (soma) be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Zao is life · Jun 21, 2020

claninja said:
If you don’t believe Jesus is the first fruits from the dead, i can understand why you believe this doesn’t relate to the Op.

If you don't believe that Jesus is the firstfruits of the resurrection then no one can help you.

Unlike you, I do believe He is the firstfuits of the resurrection to come, which Revelation 20 talks about because the Bible says so:

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits (aparche) of them that slept.

Those who will have been beheaded for their testimony to Christ and for the Word of God and those who refuse the mark of the beast become the first (protos) resurrection following Christ's resurrection - just as the apostle Paul stated they would:

1 Cor 15:22-23 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

and those who have part in this first (protos) resurrection following the resurrecrtion of Christ who is the firstfruits (aparche) of the resurrection, are blessed:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first (protos) resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev 20:5-6).

So you see the Bible teaches that Christ is the firstfruits (aparche) of the resurrection (which is a bodily resurrection from the dead - because He rose bodily), and the next resurrection will take place when He returns, when those who were beheaded and had not worshipped the beast are resurrected and reign with Him for a thousand years. This is the first (protos) resurrection following Christ's resurrection (just as Paul stated), because the rest of the dead will not be resurrected until the thousand years are finished

I believe the Bible. Do you? If you don't believe what is written and read into it things that the Bible does not say then it shows that you do not believe the Bible and are not following Christ and His apostle's Christian teaching but a Chriistian theology that is false.

Zao is life · Jun 21, 2020

rwb said:
Not meaning to butt-in to on going dialog, so I hope you won't mind answering a few questions?

The spirit of Christ, as in all mankind is His rational soul, or that which gave Him the breath of life. As Christ died He said to His Father, "into thy hands I commend my spirit", then He died. Commend means to place for safe keeping, or present, trust, deposit with the Father the essence of who He is.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Would you agree, that like Jesus in death, the spirit, or living soul of believers go to be with the Father in heaven? If you agree they do, what makes it possible for believers spirits, as living souls to go to the Father in death? This is true only of believers. In death unbelievers go into the grave to wait in silence and darkness until the bodily resurrection on the last day. Believers are not among the dead who go down into silence.

Psalm 115:17 (KJV) The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

I've just edited my previous reply to your post above to place the questions I ask you where they belong.

sovereigngrace · Jun 21, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
If you don't believe that Jesus is the firstfruits of the resurrection then no one can help you.

Unlike you, I do believe He is the firstfuits of the resurrection to come, which Revelation 20 talks about because the Bible says so:

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits (aparche) of them that slept.

Those who had will have been beheaded for their testimony to Christ and for the Word of God and those who refuse the mark of the beast become the first (protos) resurrection following Christ's resurrection - just as the apostle Paul stated they would:

1 Cor 15:22-23 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

and those who have part in this first (protos) resurrection following the resurrecrtion of Christ who is the firstfruits (aparche) of the resurrection, are blessed:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first (protos) resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev 20:5-6).

So you see the Bible teaches that Christ is the firstfruits (aparche) of the resurrection (which is a bodily resurrection from the dead - because He rose bodily), and the next resurrection will take place when He returns, when those who were beheaded and had not worshipped the beast are resurrected and reign with Him for a thousand years. This is the first (protos) resurrection following Christ's resurrection (just as Paul stated), because the rest of the dead will not be resurrected until the thousand years are finished

I believe the Bible. Do you?

Where is your "thousand years mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15? Nowhere! You keep forcing it into Holy Writ where it does not exist or fit. It might actually benefit you to think about the text in view before posting it. 1 Corinthians 15 teaches a climactic coming, like countless others. It supports the Amil position, and forbids the Premil position.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 says: “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For (or gar or seeing) since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For (or gar or seeing) as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when ‘he shall have delivered up’ (present active subjunctive) the kingdom to God, even the Father; when ‘he shall have put down’ (aorist active subjunctive) all rule and all authority and power. For (or gar or seeing) he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For (or gar or seeing) ‘he hath put’ (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him (speaking of the second coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:25-28).

Death is destroyed at the second coming, the time here denoted as “the end.” As Jesus comes and rescues ‘the just’ in the twinkling of an eye He also destroys ‘the unjust’. This passage is distinctly a description of the end. Those “in Adam all die.” The second coming is shown to be termination of all rebellion. It is the time “when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." But equally, “in Christ shall all be made alive.” This is the time “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father.” It is clear that everything is tied up at the end (“His Coming”).

The phrase “he shall have delivered up” comes from the single Greek word paradidomi meaning surrender, yield up, intrust, or transmit. This is what happens to the kingdom when Christ comes. He surrenders it to His Father, He yields it up.

The converse phrase “he shall have put down” comes from the single Greek word katargeo meaning: bring to nought, none effect, or abolish.

This is what happens to “all” existing “rule and all authority and power” when Jesus Comes. The rule of man comes to an end and now it becomes the rule of God.

After telling us that Christ’s coming sees the termination of the wicked and their evil operations, the writer tells us that Christ’s reign over His enemies must continue until this climactic point. Whilst “all power” is now assuredly given unto Christ “in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18) through His life, death and resurrection, and whilst through this victorious work “he hath put all things under his feet” in a sovereign manner, we have not yet seen the final subduing of wickedness.

God’s purpose is that the entire creation will be regenerated. That is, the whole universe will be freed from the curse of corruption and degeneration. In intent is to bring a whole new order when He returns that will be marked by righteousness and eternality. A new regenerated creation will welcome a freshly perfected redeemed people. We are therefore looking at universal regeneration.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (phthora or decay) inherit incorruption (aphthrsia or unending existence). Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

This passage closely mirrors Romans 8, confirming that the last enemy is demolished at “the last trump.” Corruption finds it end when Christ comes in all His glory. This corroborates what Paul was teaching about “the bondage of corruption” being terminated when the elect are redeemed at Christ’s appearing. No one can deny the correlation between the glorification of the elect and the glorification of the earth. God’s people cannot populate an incorrupt earth. They need their bodies suitably attired in perfection to be able to enjoy that eternal state.

Zao is life · Jun 21, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Where is your "thousand years mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15? Nowhere! You keep forcing it into Holy Writ where it does not exist or fit. It might actually benefit you to think about the text in view before posting it. 1 Corinthians 15 teaches a climactic coming, like countless others. It supports the Amil position, and forbids the Premil position.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 says: “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For (or gar or seeing) since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For (or gar or seeing) as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when ‘he shall have delivered up’ (present active subjunctive) the kingdom to God, even the Father; when ‘he shall have put down’ (aorist active subjunctive) all rule and all authority and power. For (or gar or seeing) he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For (or gar or seeing) ‘he hath put’ (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him (speaking of the second coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:25-28).

Death is destroyed at the second coming, the time here denoted as “the end.” As Jesus comes and rescues ‘the just’ in the twinkling of an eye He also destroys ‘the unjust’. This passage is distinctly a description of the end. Those “in Adam all die.” The second coming is shown to be termination of all rebellion. It is the time “when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." But equally, “in Christ shall all be made alive.” This is the time “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father.” It is clear that everything is tied up at the end (“His Coming”).

The phrase “he shall have delivered up” comes from the single Greek word paradidomi meaning surrender, yield up, intrust, or transmit. This is what happens to the kingdom when Christ comes. He surrenders it to His Father, He yields it up.

The converse phrase “he shall have put down” comes from the single Greek word katargeo meaning: bring to nought, none effect, or abolish.

This is what happens to “all” existing “rule and all authority and power” when Jesus Comes. The rule of man comes to an end and now it becomes the rule of God.

After telling us that Christ’s coming sees the termination of the wicked and their evil operations, the writer tells us that Christ’s reign over His enemies must continue until this climactic point. Whilst “all power” is now assuredly given unto Christ “in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18) through His life, death and resurrection, and whilst through this victorious work “he hath put all things under his feet” in a sovereign manner, we have not yet seen the final subduing of wickedness.

God’s purpose is that the entire creation will be regenerated. That is, the whole universe will be freed from the curse of corruption and degeneration. In intent is to bring a whole new order when He returns that will be marked by righteousness and eternality. A new regenerated creation will welcome a freshly perfected redeemed people. We are therefore looking at universal regeneration.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (phthora or decay) inherit incorruption (aphthrsia or unending existence). Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

This passage closely mirrors Romans 8, confirming that the last enemy is demolished at “the last trump.” Corruption finds it end when Christ comes in all His glory. This corroborates what Paul was teaching about “the bondage of corruption” being terminated when the elect are redeemed at Christ’s appearing. No one can deny the correlation between the glorification of the elect and the glorification of the earth. God’s people cannot populate an incorrupt earth. They need their bodies suitably attired in perfection to be able to enjoy that eternal state.

You're replying to my posts to others. You cannot see reality when it stares you in the face so you quote scriptures that neither support nor prove your case and you make those posts (which answer posts not even addressed to you) very, very long.

I'm going to have to place you on ignore now so I can discuss this with people who are able to address the issue when the fallacy of what they are saying comes to light instead of just throwing out hundreds of scripture verses which will never prove their position, the way you do.

Your posts are beyond ridiculous. So unfortunately I will have to put you on ignore.

rwb · Jun 21, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
When God breathed life into Adam, he became a living soul (psuche):

1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, was made a living soul (psuche)," the last Adam was a life-giving Spirit (pneuma).

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (nephesh in Hebrew: soul).

Jesus had a spirit and a soul:

Jesus in His humanity is like every other human. He has a body, inhabited by a living spirit, and together the two are a living soul.

Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, "My soul (psuche) is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me."

Jesus is saying that His heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, had become sorrowful of His life, because of the horrible death He would endure. Christ clearly understood the great burden awaiting Him at the cross. Further down in the discourse, Christ speaks of the spirit of the disciples being willing, but their flesh being weak. The spirit in them is what gives them spiritual life; ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. They too were living souls, having both flesh and spirit, like Christ. But they were weak in spirit and could not stay awake because their eyes were heavy with sleep.

Matthew 26:41 (KJV) Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

¶And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit (pneuma):" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost (ekpneo).

The body of Christ died; he gave up the ghost, as living spirit (soul) He went to heaven. We know He went to heaven then because He told the thief: "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Pet 3:18 For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit (pneuma);
1Pet 3:19 in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,

The Spirit of Christ was with Him in hades, enabling Him to preach. He was also raised by the Holy Spirit (His Spirit). Nevertheless He placed His Spirit in God's hands when He died.

Christ had a soul (psuche) and a Spirit (pneuma), and by the Spirit (pneuma) He preached in hades to the souls in prison.

A little more context shows us how Christ via His Spirit preached to spirits in prison.

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

I don't believe 'prison' here is a place, but rather a condition of their hearts. These were men living in the days of Noah, who was a preacher of righteousness. It was through Noah that the Spirit of Christ (Holy Spirit) preached to their spirits, because they needed to be warned of the wrath of God that was about to come upon them.

Ge 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

2 Peter 2:5 (KJV) And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Christ's body was dead and buried in a tomb. He breathed out the ghost. Did His Spirit die?

His body died, His Spirit went to heaven.

1. Can the Holy Spirit die?

No

2. How did Christ preach By the Spirit when He descended into hades?

If you're speaking of the days of Noah, I don't believe the 'spirits in prison' were in the grave. I believe these men of old, living in the days of Noah were very much alive, but prisoners through unbelief.

3. Does the scripture say that when He commended His Spirit to God that His Spirit left Him? Or did He breathe out the ghost or the soul?

He breathed His last, His body went into the tomb, and His Spirit went to heaven.

1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, was made a living soul (psuche)," the last Adam was a life-giving Spirit (pneuma).

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (nephesh in Hebrew: soul).

This is the difficulty we find with soul and spirit, because they are used almost interchangeably in Scripture. Because both mean to have life. We can have spiritual life (living = spirit/soul) without the body, but the body cannot life without the spirit. Every human has a body and spirit, and while alive is a living soul. After the body dies, IF it dies in Christ, then the body goes into the grave to wait for resurrection on the last day, and the spirit returns to God ALIVE through His Spirit in them, to wait for the last day.

1. Did Adam die spiritually when he ate of the fruit he was forbidden to eat of?

Adam became natural man. The spiritual breath that God breathed into Adam at creation remained in him, but the Holy Spirit with them left them. And Adam became a natural man, like all the rest of humanity born into this world. The breath of life (spirit) that came from God into Adam was of the Spirit. After the fall Adam possessed both spirit (natural life) and flesh, and was still a living soul. I believe it was like Christ breathing on His disciples and imparting to them the Spirit. It wasn't until after Christ sent the Spirit at Pentecost that He would remain in them forever, until then, like I believe A&E had the Spirit on them, but He left them after the fall.

John 20:22 (KJV) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

2. Was Christ born with only a body and soul only (ike us)? Or was He Spirit, soul and body?

Like all humans Christ possessed both body and spirit and the two made Him a living soul. The thing that Christ and every believer in Him possess since Pentecost is His Holy Spirit in us. It is through the Holy Spirit that our spiritual soul goes to be with the Lord in heaven when our body dies.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born from above of the Spirit, is Spirit.

2. When and how does any other human aside from Christ receive a spirit (pneuma)? Is this when he is born of the Spirit from above, or before?

We receive eternal life from the Spirit the moment we are born again or born from above. And from that moment the life we have through His Spirit in our spirit will never die. Christ, being fully God and fully man always possessed eternal spiritual life.

3. Would humans be able to be with God in heaven if they are not in Christ?

No, you must be born again to see or enter the Kingdom of God.

4. Do humans have to be born of the Spirit to be in Christ?

Yes

5. How does the following come about, in respect of humans who were not born Spirit, soul and body, like Christ was?

1 Thess 5:23 And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you, and may your whole spirit (pneuma) and soul (psuche) and body (soma) be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The person was sanctified by the Holy Spirit, but not perfectly, there is still a matter of immortal, incorruptible body. Paul prayed that they not be deceived, but that they continue in the faith until they are wholly preserved body, and spirit to be found blamelessly preserved living immortal souls.

sovereigngrace · Jun 21, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
You're replying to my posts to others. You cannot see reality when it stares you in the face so you quote scriptures that neither support nor prove your case and you make those posts (which answer posts not even addressed to you) very, very long.

I'm going to have to place you on ignore now so I can discuss this with people who are able to address the issue when the fallacy of what they are saying comes to light instead of just throwing out hundreds of scripture verses which will never prove their position, the way you do.

Your posts are beyond ridiculous. So unfortunately I will have to put you on ignore.

It honestly makes no difference to me what you do. The truth still stands immoveable and irrefutable. The text that was quoted is explicitly climatic, and no Premil could possibly wiggle out of it. It proves that the second coming is the end. You have no response to patent truth!

Zao is life · Jun 22, 2020

3. Would humans be able to be with God in heaven if they are not in Christ?

rwb said:
No, you must be born again to see or enter the Kingdom of God.

4. Do humans have to be born of the Spirit to be in Christ?

rwb said:
Yes

Thank you. I have some questions for your consideration, based on the following. You don't have to answer them if you don't want to (I'm not demanding you reply to the questions, but you can if you want to):-

BODILY RESURRECTION

John 6:40 (words of Christ): And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Cor 6:14 And God has both raised up the Lord, and also will raise us up by His own power.

There is no New Testament verse where the word anastasis (resurrection) is talking about anything other than the bodily resurrection of the dead. See for example:-

Mat 22:23; Mark 12:18; Luk 2:34; Luk 20:27; John 5:29; Acts:- 4:2; 17:18; 17:32; 23:8; 24:15; 2 Tim 2:18).

Likewise, there is no New Testament verse speaking about being raised up from death that is not speaking of being raised up bodily - they all refer to the bodily resurrection from the dead, example:-

Matthew:- 11:5; 16:21; 17:23; Mark:- 6:14; 14;28; Luke:- 7:22; 9:22; 20:37; John:- 12:1 & 9 & 17; Acts:- 2:24 & 32; 3:15 & 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30 & 34 & 37; Romans:- 4:24 & 25; 6:4 &9; 7:4; 8:11 & 34; 10:9; 1 Cor 6:14; 1 Cor 15:12-17 & 29 & 32 & 35 & 42-44 & 52-54; Gal 1:1; 1 Thess 1:10; 2 Tim 2:8; 1 Pet 1:21; Rev 1:18.

Romans 8
10 and if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, and the Spirit is life because of righteousness,
11 But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you.

Rom 4:22 And therefore (Abraham's faith) was imputed to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised (egeiro) up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised (egeiro) again for our justification.

As we can see, the bodily resurrection from the dead is a major and central theme in the gospel and the message of the New Testament.

BEING BORN FROM ABOVE

John 3:3 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again (anothen), he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Strongs: G509
00509 G509 ἄνωθεν anōthen an'-o-then
From G507; from above; by analogy from the first; by implication anew: - from above again from the beginning (very first) the top.

JOhn 3:3 Young's Literal Translation
Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'

John 3:5-7 (Young's Literal Translation)

Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;

that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.

Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,
John 1:13 who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.

CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS BASED ON THE ABOVE FACTS
(you can answer them if you like but I'm not demanding you do):-

1. Does being born from above imply birth, or bodily resurrection from death?

2. Have we risen from the dead bodily?

3. Did we die for the sins of the world and rise again from the dead? Or did Christ die for the sins of the world (and our sins) and rise again from the dead?

4. If we are born from above by the Spirit, and the Spirit is Christ's Spirit, are we IN HIM who died and rose again from the dead?

5. Are we in Christ who died for our sins and rose from the dead positionally by virtue of our having been born of His Spirit and by virtue of His bodily resurrection?

Or is it by virtue of our resurrection?

6. Are those who are born from above and found in Christ found IN HIM due to their works?

Or are they born from above and found in Christ because of Christ's works?

7. Did Christ rise again from the dead spiritually, or did He rise again from the dead bodily?

8. Bearing in mind that the word anastasis (resurrection) and the concept of being raised in the New Testament is always talking about the bodily resurrection, does the following mean that we are resurrected already?:-

Rom 6:3 Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection;

1 Cor 15
20 And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits (aparche) of those sleeping he became,
for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again (anastasis, resurrection) of the dead,
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit (aparche), and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

Eph 2:6 and has raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,

Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from the dead.

Col 3:1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God.

9. Does Eph 2:6 and Col 3:1 mean that we are resurrected?

Or does it mean that we are not yet resurrected but we are positionally in Christ who is risen?

10. When does Paul say we will be resurrected?

11. Does being born from above mean we are resurrected?

1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit (aparche), and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

Rev 20:3-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first (protos) resurrection (anastasis).

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Young's Literal translation:

and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this is the first rising again (anastasis).

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

VERY IMPORTANT TO NOTE:

1. NOWHERE in the New Testament do we see being born again from above by the Spirit of Christ being called a "resurrection" - we HAVE TO read such a notion INTO the scriptures in order to maintain that belief.

2. By virtue of our birth from above we are found IN CHRIST who died and was raised, and therefore we are now positionally with Him and have been raised with Him - THIS FACT is the guarantee, the deposit, of our coming inheritance in Christ, and our resurrection:

Rom 8:23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope; for what anyone sees, why does he also hope for it?

We are NOW positionally in Christ's death and resurrection because for those who have been born from above by the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Christ lives in our spirit, and our spirit lives in our soul, and our soul lives in our body. This is why we cannot die:

John 11: 25 Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection and the Life! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live.
John 11:26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?

Christ in us and we in Him (John 15:4). God's Spirit in our spirit, our spirit in our soul and our soul in our body

- but this is not the house that Jack built - it's the house that God built:

1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1Cor 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God shall destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.

Therefore we live in the knowledge that because of Christ's resurrection (which is a bodily resurrection), we will be bodily resurrected - but not all - when Christ returns, those who have died in Christ will rise first and those who are still alive will be changed and rise up together with them, to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:16-18).

As we can see from the above THIS is the first (protos) resurrection following Christ's, who is the firsfruit (aparche) of the resurrection.

Zao is life · Jun 22, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Where is your "thousand years mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15? Nowhere! You keep forcing it into Holy Writ where it does not exist or fit. It might actually benefit you to think about the text in view before posting it. 1 Corinthians 15 teaches a climactic coming, like countless others. It supports the Amil position, and forbids the Premil position.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 says: “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For (or gar or seeing) since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For (or gar or seeing) as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when ‘he shall have delivered up’ (present active subjunctive) the kingdom to God, even the Father; when ‘he shall have put down’ (aorist active subjunctive) all rule and all authority and power. For (or gar or seeing) he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For (or gar or seeing) ‘he hath put’ (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him (speaking of the second coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:25-28).

Death is destroyed at the second coming, the time here denoted as “the end.” As Jesus comes and rescues ‘the just’ in the twinkling of an eye He also destroys ‘the unjust’. This passage is distinctly a description of the end. Those “in Adam all die.” The second coming is shown to be termination of all rebellion. It is the time “when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." But equally, “in Christ shall all be made alive.” This is the time “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father.” It is clear that everything is tied up at the end (“His Coming”).

The phrase “he shall have delivered up” comes from the single Greek word paradidomi meaning surrender, yield up, intrust, or transmit. This is what happens to the kingdom when Christ comes. He surrenders it to His Father, He yields it up.

The converse phrase “he shall have put down” comes from the single Greek word katargeo meaning: bring to nought, none effect, or abolish.

This is what happens to “all” existing “rule and all authority and power” when Jesus Comes. The rule of man comes to an end and now it becomes the rule of God.

After telling us that Christ’s coming sees the termination of the wicked and their evil operations, the writer tells us that Christ’s reign over His enemies must continue until this climactic point. Whilst “all power” is now assuredly given unto Christ “in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18) through His life, death and resurrection, and whilst through this victorious work “he hath put all things under his feet” in a sovereign manner, we have not yet seen the final subduing of wickedness.

God’s purpose is that the entire creation will be regenerated. That is, the whole universe will be freed from the curse of corruption and degeneration. In intent is to bring a whole new order when He returns that will be marked by righteousness and eternality. A new regenerated creation will welcome a freshly perfected redeemed people. We are therefore looking at universal regeneration.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (phthora or decay) inherit incorruption (aphthrsia or unending existence). Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

This passage closely mirrors Romans 8, confirming that the last enemy is demolished at “the last trump.” Corruption finds it end when Christ comes in all His glory. This corroborates what Paul was teaching about “the bondage of corruption” being terminated when the elect are redeemed at Christ’s appearing. No one can deny the correlation between the glorification of the elect and the glorification of the earth. God’s people cannot populate an incorrupt earth. They need their bodies suitably attired in perfection to be able to enjoy that eternal state.

3. Would humans be able to be with God in heaven if they are not in Christ?

rwb said:
No, you must be born again to see or enter the Kingdom of God.

4. Do humans have to be born of the Spirit to be in Christ?

rwb said:
Yes

Thank you. I have some questions for your consideration, based on the following. You don't have to answer them if you don't want to (I'm not demanding you reply to the questions, but you can if you want to):-

BODILY RESURRECTION

John 6:40 (words of Christ): And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Cor 6:14 And God has both raised up the Lord, and also will raise us up by His own power.

There is no New Testament verse where the word anastasis (resurrection) is talking about anything other than the bodily resurrection of the dead. See for example:-

Mat 22:23; Mark 12:18; Luk 2:34; Luk 20:27; John 5:29; Acts:- 4:2; 17:18; 17:32; 23:8; 24:15; 2 Tim 2:18).

Likewise, there is no New Testament verse speaking about being raised up from death that is not speaking of being raised up bodily - they all refer to the bodily resurrection from the dead, example:-

Matthew:- 11:5; 16:21; 17:23; Mark:- 6:14; 14;28; Luke:- 7:22; 9:22; 20:37; John:- 12:1 & 9 & 17; Acts:- 2:24 & 32; 3:15 & 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30 & 34 & 37; Romans:- 4:24 & 25; 6:4 &9; 7:4; 8:11 & 34; 10:9; 1 Cor 6:14; 1 Cor 15:12-17 & 29 & 32 & 35 & 42-44 & 52-54; Gal 1:1; 1 Thess 1:10; 2 Tim 2:8; 1 Pet 1:21; Rev 1:18.

Romans 8
10 and if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, and the Spirit is life because of righteousness,
11 But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you.

Rom 4:22 And therefore (Abraham's faith) was imputed to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised (egeiro) up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised (egeiro) again for our justification.

As we can see, the bodily resurrection from the dead is a major and central theme in the gospel and the message of the New Testament.

BEING BORN FROM ABOVE

John 3:3 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again (anothen), he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Strongs: G509
00509 G509 ἄνωθεν anōthen an'-o-then
From G507; from above; by analogy from the first; by implication anew: - from above again from the beginning (very first) the top.

JOhn 3:3 Young's Literal Translation
Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'

John 3:5-7 (Young's Literal Translation)

Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;

that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.

Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,
John 1:13 who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.

CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS BASED ON THE ABOVE FACTS
(you can answer them if you like but I'm not demanding you do):-

1. Does being born from above imply birth, or bodily resurrection from death?

2. Have we risen from the dead bodily?

3. Did we die for the sins of the world and rise again from the dead? Or did Christ die for the sins of the world (and our sins) and rise again from the dead?

4. If we are born from above by the Spirit, and the Spirit is Christ's Spirit, are we IN HIM who died and rose again from the dead?

5. Are we in Christ who died for our sins and rose from the dead positionally by virtue of our having been born of His Spirit and by virtue of His bodily resurrection?

Or is it by virtue of our resurrection?

6. Are those who are born from above and found in Christ found IN HIM due to their works?

Or are they born from above and found in Christ because of Christ's works?

7. Did Christ rise again from the dead spiritually, or did He rise again from the dead bodily?

8. Bearing in mind that the word anastasis (resurrection) and the concept of being raised in the New Testament is always talking about the bodily resurrection, does the following mean that we are resurrected already?:-

Rom 6:3 Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection;

1 Cor 15
20 And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits (aparche) of those sleeping he became,
for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again (anastasis, resurrection) of the dead,
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit (aparche), and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

Eph 2:6 and has raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,

Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from the dead.

Col 3:1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God.

9. Does Eph 2:6 and Col 3:1 mean that we are resurrected?

Or does it mean that we are not yet resurrected but we are positionally in Christ who is risen?

10. When does Paul say we will be resurrected?

11. Does being born from above mean we are resurrected?

1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit (aparche), and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

Rev 20:3-4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first (protos) resurrection (anastasis).

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Young's Literal translation:

5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this is the first rising again (anastasis).

6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

VERY IMPORTANT TO NOTE:

1. NOWHERE in the New Testament do we see being born again from above by the Spirit of Christ being called a "resurrection" - we HAVE TO read such a notion INTO the scriptures in order to maintain that belief.

2. By virtue of our birth from above we are found IN CHRIST who died and was raised, and therefore we are now positionally with Him and have been raised with Him - THIS FACT is the guarantee, the deposit, of our coming inheritance in Christ, and our resurrection:

Rom 8:23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope; for what anyone sees, why does he also hope for it?

We are NOW positionally in Christ's death and resurrection because for those who have been born from above by the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Christ lives in our spirit, and our spirit lives in our soul, and our soul lives in our body. This is why we cannot die:

John 11: 25 Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection and the Life! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live.
John 11:26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?

Christ in us and we in Him (John 15:4). God's Spirit in our spirit, our spirit in our soul and our soul in our body

- but this is not the house that Jack built - it's the house that God built:

1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1Cor 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God shall destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.

Therefore we live in the knowledge that because of Christ's resurrection (which is a bodily resurrection), we will be bodily resurrected - but not all - when Christ returns, those who have died in Christ will rise first and those who are still alive will be changed and rise up together with them, to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:16-18).

As we can see from the above THIS is the first (protos) resurrection following Christ's, who is the firsfruit (aparche) of the resurrection.

Zao is life · Jun 22, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
It honestly makes no difference to me what you do. The truth still stands immoveable and irrefutable. The text that was quoted is explicitly climatic, and no Premil could possibly wiggle out of it. It proves that the second coming is the end. You have no response to patent truth!

3. Would humans be able to be with God in heaven if they are not in Christ?

rwb said:
No, you must be born again to see or enter the Kingdom of God.

4. Do humans have to be born of the Spirit to be in Christ?

rwb said:
Yes

Thank you. I have some questions for your consideration, based on the following. You don't have to answer them if you don't want to (I'm not demanding you reply to the questions, but you can if you want to):-

BODILY RESURRECTION

John 6:40 (words of Christ): And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Cor 6:14 And God has both raised up the Lord, and also will raise us up by His own power.

There is no New Testament verse where the word anastasis (resurrection) is talking about anything other than the bodily resurrection of the dead. See for example:-

Mat 22:23; Mark 12:18; Luk 2:34; Luk 20:27; John 5:29; Acts:- 4:2; 17:18; 17:32; 23:8; 24:15; 2 Tim 2:18).

Likewise, there is no New Testament verse speaking about being raised up from death that is not speaking of being raised up bodily - they all refer to the bodily resurrection from the dead, example:-

Matthew:- 11:5; 16:21; 17:23; Mark:- 6:14; 14;28; Luke:- 7:22; 9:22; 20:37; John:- 12:1 & 9 & 17; Acts:- 2:24 & 32; 3:15 & 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30 & 34 & 37; Romans:- 4:24 & 25; 6:4 &9; 7:4; 8:11 & 34; 10:9; 1 Cor 6:14; 1 Cor 15:12-17 & 29 & 32 & 35 & 42-44 & 52-54; Gal 1:1; 1 Thess 1:10; 2 Tim 2:8; 1 Pet 1:21; Rev 1:18.

Romans 8
10 and if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, and the Spirit is life because of righteousness,
11 But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you.

Rom 4:22 And therefore (Abraham's faith) was imputed to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised (egeiro) up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised (egeiro) again for our justification.

As we can see, the bodily resurrection from the dead is a major and central theme in the gospel and the message of the New Testament.

BEING BORN FROM ABOVE

John 3:3 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again (anothen), he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Strongs: G509
00509 G509 ἄνωθεν anōthen an'-o-then
From G507; from above; by analogy from the first; by implication anew: - from above again from the beginning (very first) the top.

JOhn 3:3 Young's Literal Translation
Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'

John 3:5-7 (Young's Literal Translation)

Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;

that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.

Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,
John 1:13 who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.

CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS BASED ON THE ABOVE FACTS
(you can answer them if you like but I'm not demanding you do):-

1. Does being born from above imply birth, or bodily resurrection from death?

2. Have we risen from the dead bodily?

3. Did we die for the sins of the world and rise again from the dead? Or did Christ die for the sins of the world (and our sins) and rise again from the dead?

4. If we are born from above by the Spirit, and the Spirit is Christ's Spirit, are we IN HIM who died and rose again from the dead?

5. Are we in Christ who died for our sins and rose from the dead positionally by virtue of our having been born of His Spirit and by virtue of His bodily resurrection?

Or is it by virtue of our resurrection?

6. Are those who are born from above and found in Christ found IN HIM due to their works?

Or are they born from above and found in Christ because of Christ's works?

7. Did Christ rise again from the dead spiritually, or did He rise again from the dead bodily?

8. Bearing in mind that the word anastasis (resurrection) and the concept of being raised in the New Testament is always talking about the bodily resurrection, does the following mean that we are resurrected already?:-

Rom 6:3 Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection;

1 Cor 15
20 And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits (aparche) of those sleeping he became,
for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again (anastasis, resurrection) of the dead,
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit (aparche), and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

Eph 2:6 and has raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,

Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from the dead.

Col 3:1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God.

9. Does Eph 2:6 and Col 3:1 mean that we are resurrected?

Or does it mean that we are not yet resurrected but we are positionally in Christ who is risen?

10. When does Paul say we will be resurrected?

11. Does being born from above mean we are resurrected?

1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit (aparche), and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

Rev 20:3-4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first (protos) resurrection (anastasis).

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Young's Literal translation:

5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this is the first rising again (anastasis).

6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

VERY IMPORTANT TO NOTE:

1. NOWHERE in the New Testament do we see being born again from above by the Spirit of Christ being called a "resurrection" - we HAVE TO read such a notion INTO the scriptures in order to maintain that belief.

2. By virtue of our birth from above we are found IN CHRIST who died and was raised, and therefore we are now positionally with Him and have been raised with Him - THIS FACT is the guarantee, the deposit, of our coming inheritance in Christ, and our resurrection:

Rom 8:23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope; for what anyone sees, why does he also hope for it?

We are NOW positionally in Christ's death and resurrection because for those who have been born from above by the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Christ lives in our spirit, and our spirit lives in our soul, and our soul lives in our body. This is why we cannot die:

John 11: 25 Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection and the Life! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live.
John 11:26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?

Christ in us and we in Him (John 15:4). God's Spirit in our spirit, our spirit in our soul and our soul in our body

- but this is not the house that Jack built - it's the house that God built:

1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1Cor 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God shall destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.

Therefore we live in the knowledge that because of Christ's resurrection (which is a bodily resurrection), we will be bodily resurrected - but not all - when Christ returns, those who have died in Christ will rise first and those who are still alive will be changed and rise up together with them, to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:16-18).

As we can see from the above THIS is the first (protos) resurrection following Christ's, who is the firsfruit (aparche) of the resurrection.

rwb · Jun 22, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
3. Would humans be able to be with God in heaven if they are not in Christ?

4. Do humans have to be born of the Spirit to be in Christ?

Thank you. I have some questions for your consideration, based on the following. You don't have to answer them if you don't want to (I'm not demanding you reply to the questions, but you can if you want to):-

BODILY RESURRECTION

John 6:40 (words of Christ): And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Cor 6:14 And God has both raised up the Lord, and also will raise us up by His own power.

There is no New Testament verse where the word anastasis (resurrection) is talking about anything other than the bodily resurrection of the dead. See for example:-

Mat 22:23; Mark 12:18; Luk 2:34; Luk 20:27; John 5:29; Acts:- 4:2; 17:18; 17:32; 23:8; 24:15; 2 Tim 2:18).

Likewise, there is no New Testament verse speaking about being raised up from death that is not speaking of being raised up bodily - they all refer to the bodily resurrection from the dead, example:-

Matthew:- 11:5; 16:21; 17:23; Mark:- 6:14; 14;28; Luke:- 7:22; 9:22; 20:37; John:- 12:1 & 9 & 17; Acts:- 2:24 & 32; 3:15 & 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30 & 34 & 37; Romans:- 4:24 & 25; 6:4 &9; 7:4; 8:11 & 34; 10:9; 1 Cor 6:14; 1 Cor 15:12-17 & 29 & 32 & 35 & 42-44 & 52-54; Gal 1:1; 1 Thess 1:10; 2 Tim 2:8; 1 Pet 1:21; Rev 1:18.

Romans 8
10 and if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, and the Spirit is life because of righteousness,
11 But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you.

Rom 4:22 And therefore (Abraham's faith) was imputed to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised (egeiro) up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised (egeiro) again for our justification.

As we can see, the bodily resurrection from the dead is a major and central theme in the gospel and the message of the New Testament.

BEING BORN FROM ABOVE

John 3:3 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again (anothen), he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Strongs: G509
00509 G509 ἄνωθεν anōthen an'-o-then
From G507; from above; by analogy from the first; by implication anew: - from above again from the beginning (very first) the top.

JOhn 3:3 Young's Literal Translation
Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'

John 3:5-7 (Young's Literal Translation)

Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;

that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.

Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,
John 1:13 who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.

CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS BASED ON THE ABOVE FACTS
(you can answer them if you like but I'm not demanding you do):-

1. Does being born from above imply birth, or bodily resurrection from death?

2. Have we risen from the dead bodily?

3. Did we die for the sins of the world and rise again from the dead? Or did Christ die for the sins of the world (and our sins) and rise again from the dead?

4. If we are born from above by the Spirit, and the Spirit is Christ's Spirit, are we IN HIM who died and rose again from the dead?

5. Are we in Christ who died for our sins and rose from the dead positionally by virtue of our having been born of His Spirit and by virtue of His bodily resurrection?

Or is it by virtue of our resurrection?

6. Are those who are born from above and found in Christ found IN HIM due to their works?

Or are they born from above and found in Christ because of Christ's works?

7. Did Christ rise again from the dead spiritually, or did He rise again from the dead bodily?

8. Bearing in mind that the word anastasis (resurrection) and the concept of being raised in the New Testament is always talking about the bodily resurrection, does the following mean that we are resurrected already?:-

Rom 6:3 Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection;

1 Cor 15
20 And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits (aparche) of those sleeping he became,
for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again (anastasis, resurrection) of the dead,
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit (aparche), and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

Eph 2:6 and has raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,

Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from the dead.

Col 3:1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God.

9. Does Eph 2:6 and Col 3:1 mean that we are resurrected?

Or does it mean that we are not yet resurrected but we are positionally in Christ who is risen?

10. When does Paul say we will be resurrected?

11. Does being born from above mean we are resurrected?

1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit (aparche), and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

Rev 20:3-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first (protos) resurrection (anastasis).

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Young's Literal translation:

and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this is the first rising again (anastasis).

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

VERY IMPORTANT TO NOTE:

1. NOWHERE in the New Testament do we see being born again from above by the Spirit of Christ being called a "resurrection" - we HAVE TO read such a notion INTO the scriptures in order to maintain that belief.

2. By virtue of our birth from above we are found IN CHRIST who died and was raised, and therefore we are now positionally with Him and have been raised with Him - THIS FACT is the guarantee, the deposit, of our coming inheritance in Christ, and our resurrection:

Rom 8:23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope; for what anyone sees, why does he also hope for it?

We are NOW positionally in Christ's death and resurrection because for those who have been born from above by the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Christ lives in our spirit, and our spirit lives in our soul, and our soul lives in our body. This is why we cannot die:

John 11: 25 Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection and the Life! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live.
John 11:26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?

Christ in us and we in Him (John 15:4). God's Spirit in our spirit, our spirit in our soul and our soul in our body

- but this is not the house that Jack built - it's the house that God built:

1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1Cor 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God shall destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.

Therefore we live in the knowledge that because of Christ's resurrection (which is a bodily resurrection), we will be bodily resurrected - but not all - when Christ returns, those who have died in Christ will rise first and those who are still alive will be changed and rise up together with them, to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:16-18).

As we can see from the above THIS is the first (protos) resurrection following Christ's, who is the firsfruit (aparche) of the resurrection.

When one is born again, we are not physically or bodily made alive, but made alive spiritually by the Spirit in us. It is not our body that must be born again, but our spirit. Why? Because as natural man, without the Spirit in us, we are "dead in trespasses and sins", controlled by our fleshly desires. Our natural spirit must be quickened. What does it mean to be quickened?

Quickened is defined: to reanimate conjointly with (figuratively):—quicken together with. It is derived from two Greek words: σύν sýn, soon - a primary preposition denoting union; with or together; beside, with. In composition it has similar applications, including completeness. And ζωοποιέω zōopoiéō, dzo-op-oy-eh'-o - to (re-)vitalize (literally or figuratively):—make alive, give life, quicken.

According to Paul, natural man is dead in sins. Paul is not saying our physical body is dead in sins, but that our spirits are. It is the same as saying our mind, heart, will, and emotions are being controlled by our natural human nature, rather than our supernatural spiritual nature. That we all have IF we have been born again of His Spirit in us.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

It is clear to see that though the Bible does not call our new birth in Christ a resurrection, that is nonetheless exactly what it is. For as you have clearly shown resurrection means to be raised from death to life bodily. Now I have shown you that to be raised from death to life spiritually is exactly the same as being brought from death to life bodily. For that which was dead is now alive through Christ whether it be the bodily resurrection of believers when Christ comes again, or it be the spiritual coming alive through re-birth by having God in us.

Christ is indeed the first to be resurrected to physical life from the dead to never die again. That is why when we are born again we are partaking in the resurrection life of Christ; the first resurrection. For this reason it is accurate to refer to our spiritual re-birth as being resurrected in Christ from spiritual death to spiritual life.

sovereigngrace · Jun 22, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
3. Would humans be able to be with God in heaven if they are not in Christ?

4. Do humans have to be born of the Spirit to be in Christ?

Thank you. I have some questions for your consideration, based on the following. You don't have to answer them if you don't want to (I'm not demanding you reply to the questions, but you can if you want to):-

BODILY RESURRECTION

John 6:40 (words of Christ): And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Cor 6:14 And God has both raised up the Lord, and also will raise us up by His own power.

There is no New Testament verse where the word anastasis (resurrection) is talking about anything other than the bodily resurrection of the dead. See for example:-

Mat 22:23; Mark 12:18; Luk 2:34; Luk 20:27; John 5:29; Acts:- 4:2; 17:18; 17:32; 23:8; 24:15; 2 Tim 2:18).

Likewise, there is no New Testament verse speaking about being raised up from death that is not speaking of being raised up bodily - they all refer to the bodily resurrection from the dead, example:-

Matthew:- 11:5; 16:21; 17:23; Mark:- 6:14; 14;28; Luke:- 7:22; 9:22; 20:37; John:- 12:1 & 9 & 17; Acts:- 2:24 & 32; 3:15 & 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30 & 34 & 37; Romans:- 4:24 & 25; 6:4 &9; 7:4; 8:11 & 34; 10:9; 1 Cor 6:14; 1 Cor 15:12-17 & 29 & 32 & 35 & 42-44 & 52-54; Gal 1:1; 1 Thess 1:10; 2 Tim 2:8; 1 Pet 1:21; Rev 1:18.

Romans 8
10 and if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, and the Spirit is life because of righteousness,
11 But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you.

Rom 4:22 And therefore (Abraham's faith) was imputed to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised (egeiro) up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised (egeiro) again for our justification.

As we can see, the bodily resurrection from the dead is a major and central theme in the gospel and the message of the New Testament.

BEING BORN FROM ABOVE

John 3:3 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again (anothen), he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Strongs: G509
00509 G509 ἄνωθεν anōthen an'-o-then
From G507; from above; by analogy from the first; by implication anew: - from above again from the beginning (very first) the top.

JOhn 3:3 Young's Literal Translation
Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'

John 3:5-7 (Young's Literal Translation)

Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;

that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.

Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,
John 1:13 who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.

CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS BASED ON THE ABOVE FACTS
(you can answer them if you like but I'm not demanding you do):-

1. Does being born from above imply birth, or bodily resurrection from death?

2. Have we risen from the dead bodily?

3. Did we die for the sins of the world and rise again from the dead? Or did Christ die for the sins of the world (and our sins) and rise again from the dead?

4. If we are born from above by the Spirit, and the Spirit is Christ's Spirit, are we IN HIM who died and rose again from the dead?

5. Are we in Christ who died for our sins and rose from the dead positionally by virtue of our having been born of His Spirit and by virtue of His bodily resurrection?

Or is it by virtue of our resurrection?

6. Are those who are born from above and found in Christ found IN HIM due to their works?

Or are they born from above and found in Christ because of Christ's works?

7. Did Christ rise again from the dead spiritually, or did He rise again from the dead bodily?

8. Bearing in mind that the word anastasis (resurrection) and the concept of being raised in the New Testament is always talking about the bodily resurrection, does the following mean that we are resurrected already?:-

Rom 6:3 Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection;

1 Cor 15
20 And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits (aparche) of those sleeping he became,
for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again (anastasis, resurrection) of the dead,
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit (aparche), and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

Eph 2:6 and has raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,

Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from the dead.

Col 3:1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God.

9. Does Eph 2:6 and Col 3:1 mean that we are resurrected?

Or does it mean that we are not yet resurrected but we are positionally in Christ who is risen?

10. When does Paul say we will be resurrected?

11. Does being born from above mean we are resurrected?

1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit (aparche), and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

Rev 20:3-4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first (protos) resurrection (anastasis).

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Young's Literal translation:

5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this is the first rising again (anastasis).

6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

VERY IMPORTANT TO NOTE:

1. NOWHERE in the New Testament do we see being born again from above by the Spirit of Christ being called a "resurrection" - we HAVE TO read such a notion INTO the scriptures in order to maintain that belief.

2. By virtue of our birth from above we are found IN CHRIST who died and was raised, and therefore we are now positionally with Him and have been raised with Him - THIS FACT is the guarantee, the deposit, of our coming inheritance in Christ, and our resurrection:

Rom 8:23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope; for what anyone sees, why does he also hope for it?

We are NOW positionally in Christ's death and resurrection because for those who have been born from above by the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Christ lives in our spirit, and our spirit lives in our soul, and our soul lives in our body. This is why we cannot die:

John 11: 25 Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection and the Life! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live.
John 11:26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?

Christ in us and we in Him (John 15:4). God's Spirit in our spirit, our spirit in our soul and our soul in our body

- but this is not the house that Jack built - it's the house that God built:

1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1Cor 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God shall destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.

Therefore we live in the knowledge that because of Christ's resurrection (which is a bodily resurrection), we will be bodily resurrected - but not all - when Christ returns, those who have died in Christ will rise first and those who are still alive will be changed and rise up together with them, to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:16-18).

As we can see from the above THIS is the first (protos) resurrection following Christ's, who is the firsfruit (aparche) of the resurrection.

I thought you had placed me on the ignore list?

Zao is life · Jun 22, 2020

rwb said:
When one is born again, we are not physically or bodily made alive, but made alive spiritually by the Spirit in us. It is not our body that must be born again, but our spirit. Why? Because as natural man, without the Spirit in us, we are "dead in trespasses and sins", controlled by our fleshly desires. Our natural spirit must be quickened. What does it mean to be quickened?

Quickened is defined: to reanimate conjointly with (figuratively):—quicken together with. It is derived from two Greek words: σύν sýn, soon - a primary preposition denoting union; with or together; beside, with. In composition it has similar applications, including completeness. And ζωοποιέω zōopoiéō, dzo-op-oy-eh'-o - to (re-)vitalize (literally or figuratively):—make alive, give life, quicken.

Logically therefore, based on what you say, you had died spiritually.

When you were born into this world you were not alive spiritually so you could not have died spiritually so that you could be resurrected spiritually.

rwb said:
According to Paul, natural man is dead in sins. Paul is not saying our physical body is dead in sins, but that our spirits are. It is the same as saying our mind, heart, will, and emotions are being controlled by our natural human nature, rather than our supernatural spiritual nature. That we all have IF we have been born again of His Spirit in us.

And if Christ is in you, indeed the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Romans 8:10

So the scripture contradicts what you say.

rwb · Jun 22, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Logically therefore, based on what you say, you had died spiritually.

When you were born into this world you were not alive spiritually so you could not have died spiritually so that you could be resurrected spiritually.

And if Christ is in you, indeed the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Romans 8:10

So the scripture contradicts what you say.

Apparently humans are physically born, spiritually dead. Otherwise why would Paul tell us we "dead in trespasses and sins"? He isn't speaking to corpses. Every man is born with a natural or like Adam' spirit. The natural spirit we are born with is what gives our physical body, physical life. But the natural spirit cannot make us alive through His Spirit.

Zao is life · Jun 22, 2020

rwb said:
Apparently humans are physically born, spiritually dead. Otherwise why would Paul tell us we "dead in trespasses and sins"? He isn't speaking to corpses. Every man is born with a natural or like Adam' spirit. The natural spirit we are born with is what gives our physical body, physical life. But the natural spirit cannot make us alive through His Spirit.

True. That's why we need to be born from above - translated as "born again" in some versions.

sovereigngrace · Jun 22, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Logically therefore, based on what you say, you had died spiritually.

When you were born into this world you were not alive spiritually so you could not have died spiritually so that you could be resurrected spiritually.

And if Christ is in you, indeed the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Romans 8:10

So the scripture contradicts what you say.

The Bible teaches that unsaved man is not able to save himself, nor to initiate it, nor to help it along, nor even to desire it: The unregenerate do not seek God (Romans 3:10); they are unable to hear Jesus' words (Jn.8:43,44); not able to accept nor to understand the things of the Spirit of God (1Cor.2:14); are not able to submit to God's law (Rom.8:7); not able to please God (v.8); not able to see the light of the gospel, because they are spiritually blind (2 Cor. 4:4); they are not able to come to Christ (Jn. 6:44). The Bible says they are dead in sin (Genesis 2:17, Matthew 8:2, Luke 15:24, Romans 5:12, 6:23, Eph.2:1, 5, Colossians 2:13, 5:14, 7:6, 1 Timothy 5:6, Revelation 3:1). Unsaved man is a prisoner of sin (Gal. 3:22).

sovereigngrace · Jun 22, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
True. That's why we need to be born from above - translated as "born again" in some versions.

Being raised from the grave of our sin and being born from above are 2 analogies that describe the same supernatural spiritual experience.

sovereigngrace · Jun 22, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Logically therefore, based on what you say, you had died spiritually.

When you were born into this world you were not alive spiritually so you could not have died spiritually so that you could be resurrected spiritually.

And if Christ is in you, indeed the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Romans 8:10

So the scripture contradicts what you say.

Let the Bible speak for itself.

The first death that man experienced in the garden after Adam ate of the fruit and consequently sinned was spiritual death. God said to Adam, in Genesis 2:17, “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”

Whilst we know from Scripture that Adam ate of that forbidden fruit, we equally know that he didn't physically die on that same day. This warning wasn’t therefore just talking about bodily death. In fact, Genesis 5:5 tells us, “And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.” It couldn’t also have been his soul that would die otherwise life would immediately become extinct. The soulish man lived on. This must have been referring to a spiritual death which would separate man from that perfect communion he enjoyed with God. If spiritual death was the first death man experienced, the next death that he experienced, which was a direct result of the first, was physical death. The fall left mankind in a hopeless ruined state facing a certain two-fold death. Left to his own devices, man was destined for “the Lake of Fire” and eternal spiritual and physical death.

Every man since Adam is born with original sin and therefore completely guilty before a righteous God. The Bible says, “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned” (Romans 5:12). When Adam fell his desires automatically changed from being God-ward to being self-ward. Natural man with Adam’s blood is born with that same corrupt aspiration. He is a rebel. In this, he will always go the way of sin. That is his natural inclination. This had to be corrected. That is why Christ (the second Adam) came. In salvation, Christ restores that desire for God and the things of God.

To rescue man from his inevitable doom, he needed God in His sovereign grace to intervene on his behalf.

Ephesians 2:1 reveals how all men “in Adam” are “dead in trespasses and sins.” Colossians 2:13 personalises this truth to the individual, saying, “you, being dead in your sins.” What man in general therefore required was divine intervention, which would raise him from the wretched repercussions of dual death and correct his inevitable deserved double-sentence. Man inherited that awful sinful nature and is consequently birthed in spiritual death. Moreover, it is this corrupt nature that ultimately separates man from God.

Man – in all generations – inherited Adam’s awful sinful nature, which ultimately separates man from a holy God. The first resurrection therefore that man needed was a spiritual resurrection to expiate the awful spiritual death sentence that he inherits. The second resurrection he required was a physical resurrection to (redeem or) replace the corruptible physical tabernacle that he inhabited. 2 Corinthians 5:14 declares, “if one died for all, then were all dead.” Our Dispensational brethren would do well to consider this; because if all were dead in sin, then they could similarly only be revived in Christ. Romans 7:6 confirms that we were spiritual destitute and dead prior to salvation. Paul testifies of our hopeless pre-conversion state: “that being dead wherein we were held.”

Whilst the first death that man enters into by natural birth is spiritual death, the first death that sees its full realization in all men is physical death. The germ of spiritual death – which is eternal in the Christ-rejecter – is found in every man born since Adam, although it doesn’t see its final sentence in this scene of time. The continuation of spiritual death in an unrepentant sinner’s life, whilst beginning before physical death, doesn’t find its ultimate recompense until after natural death, at the final judgment. It is only then that the unregenerate man enters into the awful realization of the penalty of spiritual death – eternal punishment and separation from a holy God – when he is cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

It is interesting that Revelation 20 or no other book of the Bible alludes to the ‘second resurrection' or the ‘first death' in such terms. The reason is simple. Every single human (outside of the believers that will be alive and waiting for Christ at His Second Advent) will take part in both. The “first resurrection” and the “second death” are different. Only the righteous experience the “first resurrection” and only the wicked experience the “second death” That’s why much is made of them in Revelation 20. We also no that Revelation beautifully correlates with the rest of Scripture.

Paul says, “she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth” (1 Timothy 5:6). It is obvious from this reading that Paul is not speaking of physical death here, but rather of spiritual death. Manifestly, Paul is referring to the woman that still possesses natural life, although she is expressly devoid of spiritual life. Her indulgence in the desires of the flesh separates her from communion with the living God. Christ must therefore first raise her from her sin before she can ever enter into the joy of sins forgiven and therefore true spiritual life. We see the exact same idea presented in Revelation 3:1 where Christ speaks to the Church of Sardis, “thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.” Again, we are unquestionably dealing a situation of physical life but spiritual death.

When Christ was calling the disciples to give up all and follow Him, one disciple responded, “suffer me first to go and bury my father (Matthew 8:21). Jesus replied unto him, “let the dead bury their dead.” Or paraphrased, ‘let the spiritually dead bury their physical dead’.

Jesus advances the parable of the Prodigal in Luke 15:21-24, and demonstrates how the Son came home in humble petition, crying, “Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.” The father then put a robe upon him “and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet.” Then, after killing the “fatted calf” the father testifies, “this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.” Once more, this is plainly referring to the spiritual quickening of the son (who was spiritually dead) and his entering into a position of new life within the elect family. Evidently it can’t be talking about physical life as he was very much alive in his sin and rebellion in the far country.

The word rendered “alive” in this verse is the Greek word anézeesen, which is the aorist active indicative of the verb ‘to live’. It is used only 5 times in the New Testament – the passage in view, Romans 14:9, Revelation 2:8 and Revelation 13:14 and significantly Revelation 20:4 – when describing the redeemed that “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

Romans 6:23 succinctly tells us: “For the wages of sin is death.”

Getting a revelation of the sinfulness of sin and the consequence of that sin brings an automatic response to the penitent.

Jesus's resurrection

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads