Old Testament Kingdom Prophecies. Literally or spiritually understood?

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David`s throne is ON the earth. King David was a man and of the royal line of Judah in the nation of Israel. All ON the earth.

Now actually Peter quoted -

`The LORD (Father) said to my Lord (Son), "Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool." (Acts 2: 34, from Ps. 110: 1)

So we see that Jesus is ON the Father`s throne and is waiting till His enemies are brought to His footstool for judgment. I have just started a new series in my blogs on this very topic.

Listen to Peter preaching on Psalm 110:1, when speaking about David and his throne, says, “For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance [referring to Psalms 16:8-10]. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne [referring to Psalms 132:12]; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption [referring to Psalms 16:10]. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, the Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, until I make thy foes thy footstool [referring to Psalm 110:1]. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:25-36).

Peter shows us that Psalm 110:1 is currently being fulfilled since Christ destroyed the power of the grave, and ascended to the right hand of majesty on high. No objective Bible student could fail to see the focus and message of this narrative. This reading is concentrated upon the victory of the resurrection of Christ nearly 2,000 years ago and the resulting current kingly Messianic reign of Christ at “the right hand of God exalted” in heaven. It confirms that Israel’s Messiah now sits enthroned upon David’s throne, and locates the timing of His assumption of the same to after “the resurrection of Christ.” As Messiah, Christ fulfilled every human demand of Him, thus rightfully assuming the kingship of Israel through His impeccable life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection.

Paul joins Peter in relating the fulfilment of the Messianic enthronement to Christ’s current kingly reign in heaven. This truth is confirmed in Acts 13:22-23. Paul speaking to the religious Jews in Antioch says, concerning the promise of the Messiah and His rise to the throne of David, which was made unto their forefathers, he (God) raised (aorist active indicative) up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. Of this man's (David’s) seed hath God according to his promise raised (aorist active indicative) unto Israel a saviour, Jesus.”

This Davidic reference was used by Paul to demonstrate (to his Israeli audience) that the much-anticipated eternal Davidic reign (prophesied for centuries in the Old Testament) had arrived in the form of Jesus Christ and His glorious resurrection. Christ was indeed Israel’s anticipated “king” and “saviour.” Premillennialists are selective in their interpretation of passages like this. The reason being: they have to be! Passages like this negate their doctrine. Whilst they except Christ as Israel’s current “saviour,” they do not except Him was Israel’s current ruling “king.” However, this text exposes their objection. This passage proves that Christ is presented as already perfectly fulfilling the Davidic expectancy.

Paul adds in Acts 13:26-30, “Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. But God raised him from the dead.”

It is clear from this whole chapter that these misguided Jews still foolishly yearned for a coming Messiah who would one day reign upon a physical temporal earthly throne in Jerusalem, when He had in fact already come and rose to the heavenly Davidic throne. These earthly-minded Jews totally missed the hour of their visitation because of their false theology. They totally misunderstood who their Messiah was and what form His reign would look like. The sobering part of this text is, their misinterpretation of Scripture, and their false expectation, caused them to miss their Messiah. The fact is, He came to Israel and most Jews never even recognised Him for who He was. They had such a wrong perception of their own king.

Paul then enlarges and explains, “And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers (speaking about the kingly Messianic reign that would usher from the seed of David), God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that [Psalm 2] he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise [His glorious rise to the throne], I will give you the sure mercies of David [quoting Isaiah 55:3] (vv 32-34).

What is majorly significant with this whole discourse from an eschatological point of view is that Paul references 2 popular Old Testament prophecies that the Jews commonly used anticipating the Messianic appearing and Davidic reign and showed how they have been fulfilled in the person of Christ and the victory of the resurrection. Here in explicit language Paul describes the realization of these Messianic predictions; the promised Messiah had already come and taken the throne of David, although, evidently, not in the person or in the manner that they had carnally imagined.

We see Stephen addressing Isaiah 66:1, whilst preaching on the subject of the tabernacle in Acts 7:44-50, saying, “Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob. But Solomon built him an house. Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? Hath not my hand made all these things? Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God (Acts 7:47-56).

Here, Stephen’s natural eyes were supernaturally opened to view the Lord’s current kingly reign over His enemies upon the heavenly throne from the right hand of majesty on high. Thus confirming, once again, the present reality of Christ’s glorious reign in glory – heaven being His throne and earth being His footstool.

Stephen was thus able to testify to the marvelous kingly fulfilment of our two prophetic Old Testament prophecies. Confirming, once again, the present reality of Christ’s glorious reign over His enemies in glory – heaven being His throne and earth being His footstool.

Stephen lost his life for identifying the Old Testament “tabernacle of witness” with Christ and the conversion of the Gentiles. He then goes on to explain that God’s tabernacle today is not physical but spiritual (v 48) and then quotes Isaiah 66:1 to show the enormity of Christ’s rule today having sat down at the right hand of majesty on high (vv 49, 55-56). Stephen showed that God’s temple today is not physical, but spiritual. Also, the Messianic reign is shown to be heavenly and not earthly: “Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool.” Plainly, earth is not the location of God’s throne – heaven is. Albeit, earth is the place of His footstool not anywhere else. Do Premils not see this? This reading confirms that this reign is active an ongoing since the resurrection/ascension. Stephen was seeing this kingly rule in this current intra-Advent period.

In the Old Testament passage of Isaiah 22:21-25 we see a typical reference to the authority and governance of Christ with the key of David over the house of David. It reads: “And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father's house. And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and the issue, all vessels of small quantity, from the vessels of cups, even to all the vessels of flagons. In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall the nail that is fastened in the sure place be removed, and be cut down, and fall; and the burden that was upon it shall be cut off: for the LORD hath spoken it.”

The seizing of the key of David is closely connected with the governance of the house of Israel. The New Testament makes it clear that Christ now holds that key/authority. He now is Israel’s king. He glorious holds his earthly fore-father David’s throne. What country to the mindset of many literalists today, it is a spiritual row over a spiritual house. It also embraces Gentiles!

Christ is shown in the New Testament to be the fulfilment to all these Messianic prophecies. What is more, He is shown to be currently exercising Davidic key/authority upon high over David’s house. John says in Revelation 3:7, “These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath (present active particle) the key (or authority) of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.

This passage reinforces the fact that Christ is exercising His Davidic kingship over mankind now. The Old Testament kings were mere types of the one true King. He didn’t come to replicate the imperfect shadow and type, He came to introduce the true and eternal kingship of Israel.
 
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Marilyn C

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Listen to Peter preaching on Psalm 110:1, when speaking about David and his throne, says, “For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance [referring to Psalms 16:8-10]. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne [referring to Psalms 132:12]; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption [referring to Psalms 16:10]. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, the Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, until I make thy foes thy footstool [referring to Psalm 110:1]. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:25-36).

Peter shows us that Psalm 110:1 is currently being fulfilled since Christ destroyed the power of the grave, and ascended to the right hand of majesty on high. No objective Bible student could fail to see the focus and message of this narrative. This reading is concentrated upon the victory of the resurrection of Christ nearly 2,000 years ago and the resulting current kingly Messianic reign of Christ at “the right hand of God exalted” in heaven. It confirms that Israel’s Messiah now sits enthroned upon David’s throne, and locates the timing of His assumption of the same to after “the resurrection of Christ.” As Messiah, Christ fulfilled every human demand of Him, thus rightfully assuming the kingship of Israel through His impeccable life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection.

Paul joins Peter in relating the fulfilment of the Messianic enthronement to Christ’s current kingly reign in heaven. This truth is confirmed in Acts 13:22-23. Paul speaking to the religious Jews in Antioch says, concerning the promise of the Messiah and His rise to the throne of David, which was made unto their forefathers, he (God) raised (aorist active indicative) up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. Of this man's (David’s) seed hath God according to his promise raised (aorist active indicative) unto Israel a saviour, Jesus.”

This Davidic reference was used by Paul to demonstrate (to his Israeli audience) that the much-anticipated eternal Davidic reign (prophesied for centuries in the Old Testament) had arrived in the form of Jesus Christ and His glorious resurrection. Christ was indeed Israel’s anticipated “king” and “saviour.” Premillennialists are selective in their interpretation of passages like this. The reason being: they have to be! Passages like this negate their doctrine. Whilst they except Christ as Israel’s current “saviour,” they do not except Him was Israel’s current ruling “king.” However, this text exposes their objection. This passage proves that Christ is presented as already perfectly fulfilling the Davidic expectancy.

Paul adds in Acts 13:26-30, “Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. But God raised him from the dead.”

It is clear from this whole chapter that these misguided Jews still foolishly yearned for a coming Messiah who would one day reign upon a physical temporal earthly throne in Jerusalem, when He had in fact already come and rose to the heavenly Davidic throne. These earthly-minded Jews totally missed the hour of their visitation because of their false theology. They totally misunderstood who their Messiah was and what form His reign would look like. The sobering part of this text is, their misinterpretation of Scripture, and their false expectation, caused them to miss their Messiah. The fact is, He came to Israel and most Jews never even recognised Him for who He was. They had such a wrong perception of their own king.

Paul then enlarges and explains, “And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers (speaking about the kingly Messianic reign that would usher from the seed of David), God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that [Psalm 2] he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise [His glorious rise to the throne], I will give you the sure mercies of David [quoting Isaiah 55:3] (vv 32-34).

What is majorly significant with this whole discourse from an eschatological point of view is that Paul references 2 popular Old Testament prophecies that the Jews commonly used anticipating the Messianic appearing and Davidic reign and showed how they have been fulfilled in the person of Christ and the victory of the resurrection. Here in explicit language Paul describes the realization of these Messianic predictions; the promised Messiah had already come and taken the throne of David, although, evidently, not in the person or in the manner that they had carnally imagined.

We see Stephen addressing Isaiah 66:1, whilst preaching on the subject of the tabernacle in Acts 7:44-50, saying, “Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob. But Solomon built him an house. Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? Hath not my hand made all these things? Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God (Acts 7:47-56).

Here, Stephen’s natural eyes were supernaturally opened to view the Lord’s current kingly reign over His enemies upon the heavenly throne from the right hand of majesty on high. Thus confirming, once again, the present reality of Christ’s glorious reign in glory – heaven being His throne and earth being His footstool.

Stephen was thus able to testify to the marvelous kingly fulfilment of our two prophetic Old Testament prophecies. Confirming, once again, the present reality of Christ’s glorious reign over His enemies in glory – heaven being His throne and earth being His footstool.

Stephen lost his life for identifying the Old Testament “tabernacle of witness” with Christ and the conversion of the Gentiles. He then goes on to explain that God’s tabernacle today is not physical but spiritual (v 48) and then quotes Isaiah 66:1 to show the enormity of Christ’s rule today having sat down at the right hand of majesty on high (vv 49, 55-56). Stephen showed that God’s temple today is not physical, but spiritual. Also, the Messianic reign is shown to be heavenly and not earthly: “Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool.” Plainly, earth is not the location of God’s throne – heaven is. Albeit, earth is the place of His footstool not anywhere else. Do Premils not see this? This reading confirms that this reign is active an ongoing since the resurrection/ascension. Stephen was seeing this kingly rule in this current intra-Advent period.

In the Old Testament passage of Isaiah 22:21-25 we see a typical reference to the authority and governance of Christ with the key of David over the house of David. It reads: “And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father's house. And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and the issue, all vessels of small quantity, from the vessels of cups, even to all the vessels of flagons. In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall the nail that is fastened in the sure place be removed, and be cut down, and fall; and the burden that was upon it shall be cut off: for the LORD hath spoken it.”

The seizing of the key of David is closely connected with the governance of the house of Israel. The New Testament makes it clear that Christ now holds that key/authority. He now is Israel’s king. He glorious holds his earthly fore-father David’s throne. What country to the mindset of many literalists today, it is a spiritual row over a spiritual house. It also embraces Gentiles!

Christ is shown in the New Testament to be the fulfilment to all these Messianic prophecies. What is more, He is shown to be currently exercising Davidic key/authority upon high over David’s house. John says in Revelation 3:7, “These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath (present active particle) the key (or authority) of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.

This passage reinforces the fact that Christ is exercising His Davidic kingship over mankind now. The Old Testament kings were mere types of the one true King. He didn’t come to replicate the imperfect shadow and type, He came to introduce the true and eternal kingship of Israel.

We are agree on quite a lot regarding the Lord ascending to the right hand of the Father and being given all authority and power. The difference is in regards to what God`s word says concerning the various `thrones,` that Christ has authority over.

1. The highest throne, rulership is in the Godhead on the Father`s throne. That is where scripture tells us that the glorified Son of God went to. (Acts 2: 34, Ps. 110: 1, Heb. 1: 3, etc)

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on MY THRONE as I overcame and sat down with My Father on HIS THRONE.` (Rev. 3: 21)

So we see there are different authority positions granted by the Father -

1. The right hand of the Father.
2. The Son`s own throne/authority and power in the angelic realm.
3. The throne in the New Jerusalem.
4. The throne on the earth - king David`s throne.

These thrones/ authority & power all come under the Kingship & Lordship of Christ.
 
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Dave L

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David`s throne is ON the earth. King David was a man and of the royal line of Judah in the nation of Israel. All ON the earth.

Now actually Peter quoted -

`The LORD (Father) said to my Lord (Son), "Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool." (Acts 2: 34, from Ps. 110: 1)

So we see that Jesus is ON the Father`s throne and is waiting till His enemies are brought to His footstool for judgment. I have just started a new series in my blogs on this very topic.
Peter preached the gospel of the kingdom in Acts 2. He said Jesus is on David's throne in Heaven. Also called heavenly Jerusalem above. Paul says he must rein until the resurrection on the last day when he destroys the last enemy - death.
 
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Douggg

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Jesus revealed that all OT kingdom prophecies are symbols of NOW and the future for US, biblical Israel, not for the former Jews unless they convert to Christ.
The Jews in Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:3-5 are Christians at that time, having embraced Jesus in the middle of the 7 years.

However, the Jews making up "my people Israel" (Ezekiel 39:7) the nation over there in middleeast right now, are for the most part not Christians. Some are, but most are not. They are the ones in Ezekiel 38 that have come out of the nations, Ezekiel 36:24.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

Their embracing Jesus and the gospel in the middle of the 7 years...

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
 
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solid_core

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The Jews in Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:3-5 are Christians at that time, having embraced Jesus in the middle of the 7 years.

However, the Jews making up "my people Israel" (Ezekiel 39:7) the nation over there in middleeast right now, are for the most part not Christians. Some are, but most are not. They are the ones in Ezekiel 38 that have come out of the nations, Ezekiel 36:24.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

Their embracing Jesus and the gospel in the middle of the 7 years...

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

"...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
1 Thessalonians 5:23

Pheww, Thessalonians must be very old today. Or Paul very mistaken about the timing of the coming.
 
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Dave L

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The Jews in Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:3-5 are Christians at that time, having embraced Jesus in the middle of the 7 years.

However, the Jews making up "my people Israel" (Ezekiel 39:7) the nation over there in middleeast right now, are for the most part not Christians. Some are, but most are not. They are the ones in Ezekiel 38 that have come out of the nations, Ezekiel 36:24.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

Their embracing Jesus and the gospel in the middle of the 7 years...

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
None of this comes directly from scripture. It uses scripture lifted from its context to make it sound biblical.
 
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Douggg

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None of this comes directly from scripture. It uses scripture lifted from its context to make it sound biblical.
None of what? Jesus returning to the Mt. of Olives in Zechariah 14:3-5 ?
 
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Dave L

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None of what? Jesus not returning to the Mt. of Olives in Zechariah 14:3-5 ?
We should follow Jesus' method of interpreting OT Kingdom prophecies, not the Pharisees whom he blinded so they could not understand.
 
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Douggg

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We should follow Jesus' method of interpreting OT Kingdom prophecies, not the Pharisees whom he blinded so they could not understand.
Do you believe that Jesus will be literally returning to the Mt. of Olives in Zechariah 14:3-5 or not?
 
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Dave L

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Do you believe that Jesus will be literally returning to the Mt. of Olives in Zechariah 14:3-5 or not?
He says we do not understand prophecy until after fulfillment. Are we false prophets if we try to spell it out beforehand?
 
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Douggg

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He says we do not understand prophecy until after fulfillment. Are we false prophets if we try to spell it out beforehand?
I wish this forum had more sails and less anchors.

Do a copy and paste of the exact scripture.
 
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Douggg

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It's who you agree with upfront as depicted in the OP.
"He says we do not understand prophecy until after fulfillment."

Could you please just do a copy and paste of that specific scripture?
 
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Dave L

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"He says we do not understand prophecy until after fulfillment."

Could you please just do a copy and paste of that specific scripture?
Prophecy, it’s not what most think.

People assume prophecy is to foretell the future. A means to present history in advance. But this is not what Jesus says. Prophecy is so we can look back in history and see God’s hand in bringing the-once obscure event to pass.

Jesus said; “I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe” (John 14:29). And again, “From henceforth I tell you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he” (John 13:19)

Most of the prophecies about the coming of Christ were so vague, we could never base a detailed forecast on them until after fulfilment. John the Baptist stands out having said to be Elijah. Jesus stands out having when said to be the Temple. Indeed, most even today missed the Kingdom of God in the times of the Roman Empire thinking it would be physical instead of spiritual.

Robert Whitelaw says: When we analyze all these cases [of fulfilled prophecies], we find that the fulfillments may be classified into five categories as follows:

(a) Natural events, fulfilled as described by the writer; thirteen cases.

(b) Natural events, but not fulfilled exactly as described or foreseen; eleven cases.

(c) Fulfilled by events both natural and spiritual, but never exactly as described or likely foreseen: sixteen cases.

(d) Fulfilled by events in the spiritual realm only, but not as described or likely foreseen: forty-three cases.

(e) Fulfillments cited in the N. T. as the general tenor of ‘, what the prophets have said”, and always fulfilled by events in the spiritual realm: eleven cases.

Robert Whitelaw. THE GOSPEL MILLENNIUM and Obedience to Scripture.

So based on this it is hard to trust what we think a prophetic passage says until after God makes it clear by fulfilling it.

E.J. Young says; Now, it is contrary to the nature and genius of prophecy to reveal the future as detailed history. In all prophecy there is an element of obscurity and perhaps even of ambiguity. The Lord had distinctly said that He would speak to the prophets in a manner less clear and direct than that in which He would speak to Moses His Servant (Num. 12:1–8). With the prophets He would speak in dreams and visions and—so it would seem—in dark and enigmatic sayings. In revelations which were given as visions, therefore, we should expect an abundance of imagery and symbolism. There are many instances of such revelation in the prophetical books (e. g., Isa. 24–27; Joel 3:9–17; Zech. 14; Ps. 2; Amos 7–9).

Young, E. J. (1980). The Prophecy of Daniel: A Commentary (p. 21). Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.

Irenaeus of Lyons: “It is … more certain, and less hazardous to await the fulfillment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for names that may present themselves.”
 
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Douggg

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Jesus said; “I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe” (John 14:29). And again, “From henceforth I tell you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he” (John 13:19)

The above verses are completely different from your claim. It is not a universal statement regarding all prophecy.

For example, in Matthew 24:15,
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )


And Jesus did not say the words of your statement...

"He says we do not understand prophecy until after fulfillment."

Whenever you write "He says", what Jesus "says" are the copy and paste words of the verses.

Instead, what you should be writing is something like He "indicates". Or the passage "indicates". Because you are giving your understanding, interpretation and application of the verse. Whenever you (or anyone else) writes "He says", it implies the exact copy and paste words from the text.
 
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BABerean2

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The "understanding" of Matthew 24:15 is found below.

Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

The Jews of Jesus time celebrated Hanukkah every year, and well understood the attack on the city, and the stopping of sacrifices caused by Antiochus Epiphanes during 167 BC.


.
 
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Douggg

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The "understanding" of Matthew 24:15 is found below.

Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

The Jews of Jesus time celebrated Hanukkah every year, and well understood the attack on the city, and the stopping of sacrifices caused by Antiochus Epiphanes during 167 BC.


.

BaB2, no body buys into that interpretation. Because it doesn't making any sense, in the context of Matthew 24:15-30, when the abomination of desolation triggers the great tribulation, that if not cut short no flesh would be saved.
 
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The above verses are completely different from your claim. It is not a universal statement regarding all prophecy.

For example, in Matthew 24:15,
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )


And Jesus did not say the words of your statement...

"He says we do not understand prophecy until after fulfillment."

Whenever you write "He says", what Jesus "says" are the copy and paste words of the verses.

Instead, what you should be writing is something like He "indicates". Or the passage "indicates". Because you are giving your understanding, interpretation and application of the verse. Whenever you (or anyone else) writes "He says", it implies the exact copy and paste words from the text.
And he answered it for us. But most yet to be fulfilled prophecy you should not soothsay an outcome before it happens.
 
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