20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

claninja · Jun 20, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Why would you be attracted to a Jesuit like Hahn?

I typically try to read a variety of sources with different eschatological backgrounds. Steve Hahn is a traditional amil, who holds that the 1,000 years = the intra advent period leading up to the "coalitions of evil" under the influence of satan besieging the church in the last days, but believes it "may" be called the 1,000 years as it points to the davidic covenant, almost exactly 1,000 years before Christs' 1st advent.

Even though I disagree with traditional Amil, I appreciate Steve Hahn's explanation as to why it is called the 1,000 years and not 2,000 years or 3,000 years or 10,000 years.

sovereigngrace said:
hose who espouse quasi-Full Preterist views on this board seem heavily influenced by Rome.

You are entitled to that unsupported opinion.

sovereigngrace said:
So “the thousand years“ are an aberration? They are not a period of time?

The thousand years are symbolic. So what do they symbolize?

Traditional Amil holds that they symbolize the intra advent period, where satan will be released at the end of the age. The only problem, is that NT scripture doesn't support this.

The NT scriptures confirms that satan was already around in the 1st century, persecuting and deceiving through the sons of disobedience.

sovereigngrace · Jun 20, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Explain to me, how the bible explicitly gives a 1000 year period between the first resurrection, which specifies that saints who endured the tribulation are taking part in, and the second resurrection of judgement/condemnation that happens before the white throne of judgement.

To me, it doesn't matter that this is the only chapter in the bible that mentions a millennial period, because Jesus said there would be 2 resurrections in John 5, and Revelation 20 gives us 2 resurrections, and a 1000 year space between them.

There is no way to reconcile a space of 1000 years between the first and second resurrection if there is no actual millennial kingdom, or if the millennium is already past.
Premillennial is the ONLY position that can account for 2 resurrections with 1000 years between them.

Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

Please notice “the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” We are not just looking at the righteous, we are looking at both the righteous and the wicked. The passage goes on to confirm: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” All that are in the graves will come forth when He comes. The righteous will be ushered into His glorious kingdom, the wicked shall be damned for all eternity in the lake of fire.

The righteous and wicked dead all rise in response to the same sovereign voice - Christ's. Christ’s description of the resurrection depicts a unitary event, albeit in two parts. Part 1 is the elect; Part 2 is the wicked. Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” Evidently there is only one resurrection albeit involving two separated aspects: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

There is no 1,000 years’ separation mentioned or hinted at in here.

sovereigngrace · Jun 20, 2020

claninja said:
I typically try to read a variety of sources with different eschatological backgrounds. Steve Hahn is a traditional amil, who holds that the 1,000 years = the intra advent period leading up to the "coalitions of evil" under the influence of satan besieging the church in the last days, but believes it "may" be called the 1,000 years as it points to the davidic covenant, almost exactly 1,000 years before Christs' 1st advent.

Even though I disagree with traditional Amil, I appreciate Steve Hahn's explanation as to why it is called the 1,000 years and not 2,000 years or 3,000 years or 10,000 years.

You are entitled to that unsupported opinion.

The thousand years are symbolic. So what do they symbolize?

Traditional Amil holds that they symbolize the intra advent period, where satan will be released at the end of the age. The only problem, is that NT scripture doesn't support this.

The NT scriptures confirms that satan was already around in the 1st century, persecuting and deceiving through the sons of disobedience.

So “the thousand years“ are an aberration? They are not a period of time that has literal historic events occurring within it?

claninja · Jun 20, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
So “the thousand years“ are an aberration?

Yes, I believe they are not to be understood literally. Do you believe the 1,000 are to be understood literally or an abberation?

sovereigngrace said:
They are not a period of time that has literal historic events occurring within it?

I believe they are a fulfillment. The perfect tense of a greek verb is a completed action that has ongoing results. This is how I look at the millennium. It found its fulfillment/completion in Christ, which resulted in satan being bound, the 1st resurrection, the saints becoming a kingdom of priests. We live in the results of this completed work of Christ. We live because of Christ's resurrection. Satan is bound and can no longer accuse and we, who are in Christ are a kingdom of priests.

Do you believe satan is unable to wage war against the body of Christ?

sovereigngrace · Jun 20, 2020

claninja said:
Yes, I believe they are not to be understood literally. Do you believe the 1,000 are to be understood literally or an abberation?

Of course it is not an aberration. It is a literal period of time (albeit depicted in a figurative manner) with distinct events occurs throughout it. You are advancing Gnosticism. That is why I reject it.

I believe they are a fulfillment. The perfect tense of a greek verb is a completed action that has ongoing results. This is how I look at the millennium. It found its fulfillment/completion in Christ, which resulted in satan being bound, the 1st resurrection, the saints becoming a kingdom of priests. We live in the results of this completed work of Christ. We live because of Christ's resurrection. Satan is bound and can no longer accuse and we, who are in Christ are a kingdom of priests.

Do you believe satan is unable to wage war against the body of Christ?

Click to expand...

Satan still has movement and can do evil, just like a prisoner can to the same in prison, but he cannot hurt the people of God or thwart the Gospel advance to the once-blinded nations as he wishes. Jesus now reigns over all His enemies. He calls the shots. He decides what goes and what does not.

Satan has no power over the elect, the elect have power over him since the First Advent.

claninja · Jun 20, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Of course it is not an aberration. It is a literal period of time (albeit depicted in a figurative manner) with distinct events occurs throughout it.

their both an aberration if not taken literally. You believe occurs throughout it. I believe the events occur because of it.

sovereigngrace said:
You are advancing Gnosticism.

how so?

sovereigngrace said:
Satan still has movement and can do evil, just like a prisoner can to the same in prison, but he cannot hurt the people of God or thwart the Gospel advance to the once-blinded nations as he wishes.

so the Satan will be able to thwart the gospel and hurt the people of God during a future little season?

sovereigngrace said:
Jesus now reigns over all His enemies. He calls the shots. He decides what goes and what does not.

I agree. Does Jesus stop reigning during satans little season?

sovereigngrace said:
Satan has no power over the elect, the elect have power over him since the First Advent.

I agree. Does that mean you believe Satan will have power over the left during a future little season?

sovereigngrace · Jun 20, 2020

claninja said:
their both an aberration if not taken literally. You believe occurs throughout it. I believe the events occur because of it.

how so?

so the Satan will be able to thwart the gospel and hurt the people of God during a future little season?

I agree. Does Jesus stop reigning during satans little season?

I agree. Does that mean you believe Satan will have power over the left during a future little season?

Satan will be able to resist and thwart the Gospel advance in Satan's little season. That is the context and subject matter of Rev 20. But like everything Satan does, increased persecution at the end will be used by God to see lives reached that have hitherto never been touched. God is still in control.

sovereigngrace · Jun 20, 2020

claninja said:
their both an aberration if not taken literally. You believe occurs throughout it. I believe the events occur because of it.

So, the events are an aberration also? The whole thousand years being an aberration is ridiculous and fanciful. What else is fiction and imaginary in your theology?

Jamdoc · Jun 20, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Various posters have showed you the error of your hyper-literal approach to Revelation. Because you choose to ignore this, you then proceed to examine Amil through the lense of your mistaken approach. This is both unfair and unwise.

I asked you "how long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?" You failed to address this. This carries the same figurative sense - only describing a small period of time. Most Premils have no difficulty with this, because it does not interfere with Premil. This is double standards. This is common with nearly every topic you address with Premils.

The reality is: Revelation is a highly symbolic book. Your strict literalist approach to does not stand up to any basic examination. You have a habit of avoiding detailed posts that expose the flaws in your doctrine.

Your hyper-literalist approach to the beast and the mark cause you to miss the spiritual thrust of truth in Revelation. The one thing that marks Premil is that it lack corroboration for every single aspect of its teaching. For example: nowhere else in Scripture does it teach that heaven or hell is determined by taking a literal mark or not. Premils seem to struggle with interpreting Revelation by other Scripture. They rather arbitrary enforce their literalist mindset on the whole book. What results is a mountain of new revelation that totally contradicts repeated, clear and explicit biblical teaching.

You do not seem to get the fact that Revelation is describing a spiritual conflict between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. We have moved a long time ago from the old covenant to the new covenant. We have moved from the physical to the spiritual, from the temporal to the eternal, from the earthly to the heavenly, from the visible to the invisible.

The story of the book of Revelation is the same as the rest of scripture: men are either on one side or the other. Men are either in the army of God or in the beast’s army - controlled by Satan. There is no in-between. God's army on earth and God's army in heaven are spiritually one. When Jesus comes Christ unifies the whole army. What is left on earth is the wicked (or the beast's army). He destroys all them, resurrects them and judges all together. He then sets up the eternal state on the new heavens and new earth.

We know from repeated Scripture there are only two peoples on the earth – those whose names are written in the book of life (the redeemed Church throughout time) and those whose names are not written in the book of life (the Christ-rejecting world). Those that withhold their veneration of this evil beast are assuredly the elect of God – those chosen from the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:3-6, 11, Titus 1:1-2, II Thessalonians 2:13-14, 2 Timothy 1:9). The beast’s disciples include everyone else – that great number of Christ-rejecters on the broad road to destruction “whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

Revelation 17:8 teaches, “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder (thaumazo or admire or marvel), whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast.”

This text makes clear that the beast attracts the affections of all the non-elect. All “that dwell on the earth” admire or marvel at the beast “whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.” The language here is pretty water-tight.

This passage again only recognises 2 peoples: those who are in the Book of life that are shown to be the only ones that don’t admire the beast, and those who aren’t in the book of life and who consequently reverence the beast.

Throughout this chapter before us the Holy Spirit identifies and speaks respectively of God’s dealing with the sum total of either camp. The passage is written from God’s eternal aspect and depicts both the eternally righteous and the eternally damned – those who finally yield themselves to the world in reprobation and are therefore eternally doomed. The saved carry the mark of God upon them – which is the blessing and favour of God – and are the elect of God having their names written in “the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” The lost consist of those “whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. This is the only two groups that have ever existed on this earth.

Remarkably, the sum total of those “that dwell on the earth ... whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world” shall admire and marvel “when they behold the beast.” They look with awe and amazement at him. They give their allegiance to this fiend. They esteem the incredible power and influence of this evil entity. The beast’s followers are therefore the sum total of the wicked. The beast holds the affection of all the unregenerate. We know the ungodly are besotted by this wicked influence because of the wording of Holy Writ. The beast gains the hearts and minds of the Christ-rejecter.

This can only refer to the full amount of those among the wicked that stubbornly refuse to bow their knee to Christ in this current life. It is they that are beguiled by the subtle prompting of the beast and are shown to have no time for the things of God. The awful consequence of this delusion is that they have no part or portion “in the book of life” which is said to be written in eternity – “from the foundation of the world.” It should be noted in passing, the delusion poured out by the beast is directed at human beings, not angels. We know for sure that those that are written in the book of life are the redeemed of God alone – embracing all those that put their trust in Christ alone. Therefore, we can deduce, the beast’s adherents are the remainder of mankind – the sum total of the unregenerate world, also known in the Bible as the damned.

Revelation 13:16-17 underpins the all-encompassing nature of the beast’s army, saying, “he (the false prophet) causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.”

Everyone on earth that is not written in the book of life is required to submit to the beast’s authority. When we look at the detailed description of the beast in Revelation (including his image and his mark), we can see that the apocalypse very clearly distinguishes between those who take the mark of the beast and those who don't.

The people in the beast kingdom are those whose names are not written in the book of life. They worship the beast and are part of the beast kingdom. Revelation 20:15 confirms the fate of all those who are not in the book of life, saying, “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

Revelation 14:9-11 says, “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

Beast’s subjects = those excluded from the book of life = those that are eternally damned to “the lake of fire.”

Christ’s subjects = those included in the book of life = those that are eternally saved from “the lake of fire.”

Scripture after Scripture (referring to the beast) makes clear that men either have the mark and worship the beast and his image or else they refuse any association with him / it. It is that simple. Those who have the mark of the beast are lost and will be thrown into the lake of fire at the Judgment. Those who do not have the mark of the beast have the seal of God (Holy Spirit) and are saved and reign with Christ spiritually even now in heavenly places (Ephesians 1:3, 2:6, Hebrews 12:22-23 and Revelation 20:4) and will inherit eternal life in the new heavens and new earth.

All that and you don't address the main point, which is, that Rev 20 constantly refers to it by "the thousand years". If it keeps repeating "the thousand years" then yes, I do think that it is a definite, literal amount of time, not a figure of speech like "the day" "the hour" "the time" or "a season".
When they refer to "one hour", I also think that it is yes, within 60 minutes. Within 60 minutes an entire nation (referred to as a city) can be destroyed with Nuclear weapons (the allegorical interpretation of fire from the heavens), and I'm sure if it's not an allegory to nukes but literally fire and brimstone from the sky, God could do it too. The leaders of the world who give the Antichrist sole authority do so in a meeting, say in the UN, I see no problem believing that could happen in 1 hour, newly appointed leaders, and then they appoint the Antichrist as leader of them all. There's been pushes for world unity since right after the flood, "lest we be scattered".

I do view revelation through the lens of other scripture, but if Revelation has a detail that is not discussed anywhere else in the bible, I don't throw that detail out or declare it symbollic and try to erase its meaning or water it down like you do, I just accept that Revelation is MEANT to give those details, it is a book about the end times, and not a prophecy of what was happening to Israel before Christ which muddies up many old testament prophecies is that they see a near future event of what's going to happen to Israel, and then get glimpses of a far future event on what's going to happen to the world.
Remember that the disciples of Jesus were expecting ALL of the prophecies of the messiah to come true during Jesus' lifetime on earth, we know now that some of them are still future events from His second coming.

Jamdoc · Jun 20, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

Please notice “the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” We are not just looking at the righteous, we are looking at both the righteous and the wicked. The passage goes on to confirm: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” All that are in the graves will come forth when He comes. The righteous will be ushered into His glorious kingdom, the wicked shall be damned for all eternity in the lake of fire.

The righteous and wicked dead all rise in response to the same sovereign voice - Christ's. Christ’s description of the resurrection depicts a unitary event, albeit in two parts. Part 1 is the elect; Part 2 is the wicked. Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” Evidently there is only one resurrection albeit involving two separated aspects: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

There is no 1,000 years’ separation mentioned or hinted at in here.

Actually while the time is not specified, and 2 separate events, you missed something in John 5. I'll show you.

John 5:24-29

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Let's break it down, how is this 2 separate events?

Well here's the first resurrection

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

The key phrase here is "that hear(eth)". That is He's describing a resurrection for those who heard the Gospel, and them only at first. This coincides with revelation 20 where there is a blessed first resurrection. Remember Revelation 20:5 "And the rest of the dead..." There can't be a "rest of the dead" if some of the dead have not been raised. Jesus shows a first and second resurrection, and Revelation 20 gives us how long between the first and second resurrection.

Then Jesus explains a second resurrection, one of judgement, because the believers who were alive (or dead) at the time of the rapture, have been resurrected in the first resurrection, but 1000+ years has happened since then, and new people will come to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved, but when they die, they will not instantly be resurrected as they go, they're going to wait for the second resurrection, but this one will be before the white throne of Judgement rather than automatically saved from the second death which has no power, no threat, over anyone who was in the first resurrection. In the second resurrection there is a threat of the second death, and those who are not in the book of life are given to the second death.

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

You either believe those are 2 separate resurrections, which is consistent with Revelation 20, or you believe that Jesus is repeating Himself.

2 Resurrections is in scripture, in John 5. Revelation 20 just gives us the new detail of how long between them.

sovereigngrace · Jun 20, 2020

Jamdoc said:
All that and you don't address the main point, which is, that Rev 20 constantly refers to it by "the thousand years". If it keeps repeating "the thousand years" then yes, I do think that it is a definite, literal amount of time, not a figure of speech like "the day" "the hour" "the time" or "a season".
When they refer to "one hour", I also think that it is yes, within 60 minutes. Within 60 minutes an entire nation (referred to as a city) can be destroyed with Nuclear weapons (the allegorical interpretation of fire from the heavens), and I'm sure if it's not an allegory to nukes but literally fire and brimstone from the sky, God could do it too. The leaders of the world who give the Antichrist sole authority do so in a meeting, say in the UN, I see no problem believing that could happen in 1 hour, newly appointed leaders, and then they appoint the Antichrist as leader of them all. There's been pushes for world unity since right after the flood, "lest we be scattered".

I do view revelation through the lens of other scripture, but if Revelation has a detail that is not discussed anywhere else in the bible, I don't throw that detail out or declare it symbollic and try to erase its meaning or water it down like you do, I just accept that Revelation is MEANT to give those details, it is a book about the end times, and not a prophecy of what was happening to Israel before Christ which muddies up many old testament prophecies is that they see a near future event of what's going to happen to Israel, and then get glimpses of a far future event on what's going to happen to the world.
Remember that the disciples of Jesus were expecting ALL of the prophecies of the messiah to come true during Jesus' lifetime on earth, we know now that some of them are still future events from His second coming.

If the reign of antichrist with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is 60 minutes then most of us will sleep through it. LOL. Why then are Premillers so paranoid of the reign of the beast and the mark of the beast??? Even you do not believe what you are now writing. It is ludicrous.

sovereigngrace · Jun 20, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Actually while the time is not specified, and 2 separate events, you missed something in John 5. I'll show you.

John 5:24-29

Let's break it down, how is this 2 separate events?

Well here's the first resurrection

The key phrase here is "that hear(eth)". That is He's describing a resurrection for those who heard the Gospel, and them only at first. This coincides with revelation 20 where there is a blessed first resurrection. Remember Revelation 20:5 "And the rest of the dead..." There can't be a "rest of the dead" if some of the dead have not been raised. Jesus shows a first and second resurrection, and Revelation 20 gives us how long between the first and second resurrection.

Then Jesus explains a second resurrection, one of judgement, because the believers who were alive (or dead) at the time of the rapture, have been resurrected in the first resurrection, but 1000+ years has happened since then, and new people will come to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved, but when they die, they will not instantly be resurrected as they go, they're going to wait for the second resurrection, but this one will be before the white throne of Judgement rather than automatically saved from the second death which has no power, no threat, over anyone who was in the first resurrection. In the second resurrection there is a threat of the second death, and those who are not in the book of life are given to the second death.

You either believe those are 2 separate resurrections, which is consistent with Revelation 20, or you believe that Jesus is repeating Himself.

2 Resurrections is in scripture, in John 5. Revelation 20 just gives us the new detail of how long between them.

There you go again! You interpret (explain away) every passage in Holy Writ by your opinion of one highly symbolic chapter (Revelation 20), which just so happens to be the only passage in the Old or New Testament that mentions a thousand years reign. Premils are fixated with Revelation 20. They view all Scripture through that lense. This is ridiculous hermeneutics.

Amils stand with Paul in his wise motto in Romans 4:3 "what saith the scripture?"

The foremost consideration when studying Scripture must be to establish the grammatical contextual meaning of the text, whether it is literal, figurative or parabolic, and who, what and when it relates to. Is it speaking of the past, present or future? Is it principally speaking to the people receiving it or is it speaking prophetically of an approaching event? We should always be sensitive to its setting, style of writing, and the respective subject under discussion.

The 2 biggest problems I see within Christian circles today is:

· Many have no understanding of the consistent teaching of the Word. They are not real students of the Word of God. They just believe what they have been taught.
· Many have no safe, solid or consistent interpretive rules to help them understand the Scriptures. They just take a text out of context and make it a pretext.

sovereigngrace · Jun 20, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Actually while the time is not specified, and 2 separate events, you missed something in John 5. I'll show you.

John 5:24-29

Let's break it down, how is this 2 separate events?

Well here's the first resurrection

The key phrase here is "that hear(eth)". That is He's describing a resurrection for those who heard the Gospel, and them only at first. This coincides with revelation 20 where there is a blessed first resurrection. Remember Revelation 20:5 "And the rest of the dead..." There can't be a "rest of the dead" if some of the dead have not been raised. Jesus shows a first and second resurrection, and Revelation 20 gives us how long between the first and second resurrection.

Then Jesus explains a second resurrection, one of judgement, because the believers who were alive (or dead) at the time of the rapture, have been resurrected in the first resurrection, but 1000+ years has happened since then, and new people will come to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved, but when they die, they will not instantly be resurrected as they go, they're going to wait for the second resurrection, but this one will be before the white throne of Judgement rather than automatically saved from the second death which has no power, no threat, over anyone who was in the first resurrection. In the second resurrection there is a threat of the second death, and those who are not in the book of life are given to the second death.

You either believe those are 2 separate resurrections, which is consistent with Revelation 20, or you believe that Jesus is repeating Himself.

2 Resurrections is in scripture, in John 5. Revelation 20 just gives us the new detail of how long between them.

There is no 1,000 years’ separation mentioned or hinted at in here. Evidently there is only one resurrection albeit involving two separated aspects.

This reading expressly speaks of a time in history when the dead (both good and evil) “shall hear his (Christ’s) voice, and shall come forth.” Notwithstanding, this perfectly correlates with every explicit reference to the judgment in Scripture that shows both the righteous and wicked being brought to account at the same time. Therefore, both parties must of necessity be raised around the same time to fulfil such. The reading before us substantiates this requirement in the most explicit language possible.

Scripture constantly refers to one general resurrection / judgment day, a day when everyman shall rise to meet the Lord and account for the life that he has lived on this earth. Notwithstanding, Premillennialists try to argue that the “hour” mentioned in John 5:28 represents a literal thousand years and involves two physical resurrections, the first being for the righteous at the beginning of the thousand years, the second for the wicked at the end of that period. However, a closer look at this passage shows that there is not the slightest intimation of such an interpretation in this reading. As we have already established, whatever time-span this hour covers, and whatever actually occurs within it, must assuredly continue to happen throughout the time-span of this hour – that is the consistent usage of this figure in other Scripture. The stated occurrence must be ongoing throughout the stated period in view (however long that may be). In this case it is the resurrection of the dead (both righteous and wicked). So the Premillennialist must accept, the millennium is a period of constant and ongoing resurrection of the righteous and constant and ongoing judgment of the wicked.

Therefore, if the Premillennialist is going to interpret this passage in its true context, in keeping with its repeated usage, he will have to accept that the resurrection of the righteous and wicked will continue unabated throughout the full period of this figurative hour. However, this is where Premillennialism hits the rocks. Much against their better judgment, they are required to accept that the resurrection continues progressively for 1000 years period. The millennium will thus involve the gradual resurrection of the dead.

claninja · Jun 20, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Satan will be able to resist and thwart the Gospel advance in Satan's little season.

I disagree. I don’t believe Satan will ever be able to thwart or prevent the spread of the gospel. Such would be an interpretation of revelation without the use of the gospels and epistles.

sovereigngrace said:
But like everything Satan does, increased persecution at the end will be used by God to see lives reached that have hitherto never been touched. God is still in control.

so it wasn’t being used against the first century church? The first century church wasnt truly suffering for the sake of the kingdom like those in the end times?

sovereigngrace said:
So, the events are an aberration also? The whole thousand years being an aberration is ridiculous and fanciful. What else is fiction and imaginary in your theology?

So then we shouldn’t use the gospels or epistles to interpret All Revelation 20, based on your belief system. It’s ok to use the gospels and epistles to interpret the binding and the first resurrection, but as soon as it comes to the litttle season, nope, only rely on symbolic and obscure language from revelation.

sovereigngrace · Jun 20, 2020

claninja said:
I disagree. I don’t believe Satan will ever be able to thwart or prevent the spread of the gospel. Such would be an interpretation of revelation without the use of the gospels and epistles.

so it wasn’t being used against the first century church? The first century church wasnt truly suffering for the sake of the kingdom like those in the end times?

So then we shouldn’t use the gospels or epistles to interpret All Revelation 20, based on your belief system. It’s ok to use the gospels and epistles to interpret the binding and the first resurrection, but as soon as it comes to the litttle season, nope, only rely on symbolic and obscure language from revelation.

The early Church saw resistance but also the greatest Revival in history. They overcome Satan globally and shone a light on whole nations. That is still ongoing.

The issue is: how do you with any hermeneutical credence argue that the first resurrection of Christ is real, literal and historic, the binding of Satan is real, literal and historic, the reign of the saints is real, literal and historic but fail to recognize the final resurrection/judgment in Revelation 20? You arbitrarily obliterate the rest of the chapter because it does not agree with your theology.

Jamdoc · Jun 20, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
If the reign of antichrist with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is 60 minutes then most of us will sleep through it. LOL. Why then are Premillers so paranoid of the reign of the beast and the mark of the beast??? Even you do not believe what you are now writing. It is ludicrous.

No no no.
You don't understand. The 10 kings, who would be newly appointed leaders in world nations, would be in a meeting for one hour with the beast, and all vote to make the beast the sole leader of the world. After that the beast reigns for 42 months/1260 days/time, times, and half a time
They only have their offices of being in power for 1 hour for the sole purpose of giving that power to the beast.

sovereigngrace · Jun 20, 2020

Jamdoc said:
No no no.
You don't understand. The 10 kings, who would be newly appointed leaders in world nations, would be in a meeting for one hour with the beast, and all vote to make the beast the sole leader of the world. After that the beast reigns for 42 months/1260 days/time, times, and half a time
They only have their offices of being in power for 1 hour for the sole purpose of giving that power to the beast.

Most of us will likely sleep through this 60 minutes of darkness.

Sad, how one wrong interpretation leads to another. That is what Premillennialism is! It falls like a deck of cards when you flick any of its main tenets. Even it's proof texts all contradict each other.

Jamdoc · Jun 20, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
There is no 1,000 years’ separation mentioned or hinted at in here. Evidently there is only one resurrection albeit involving two separated aspects.

This reading expressly speaks of a time in history when the dead (both good and evil) “shall hear his (Christ’s) voice, and shall come forth.” Notwithstanding, this perfectly correlates with every explicit reference to the judgment in Scripture that shows both the righteous and wicked being brought to account at the same time. Therefore, both parties must of necessity be raised around the same time to fulfil such. The reading before us substantiates this requirement in the most explicit language possible.

Scripture constantly refers to one general resurrection / judgment day, a day when everyman shall rise to meet the Lord and account for the life that he has lived on this earth. Notwithstanding, Premillennialists try to argue that the “hour” mentioned in John 5:28 represents a literal thousand years and involves two physical resurrections, the first being for the righteous at the beginning of the thousand years, the second for the wicked at the end of that period. However, a closer look at this passage shows that there is not the slightest intimation of such an interpretation in this reading. As we have already established, whatever time-span this hour covers, and whatever actually occurs within it, must assuredly continue to happen throughout the time-span of this hour – that is the consistent usage of this figure in other Scripture. The stated occurrence must be ongoing throughout the stated period in view (however long that may be). In this case it is the resurrection of the dead (both righteous and wicked). So the Premillennialist must accept, the millennium is a period of constant and ongoing resurrection of the righteous and constant and ongoing judgment of the wicked.

Therefore, if the Premillennialist is going to interpret this passage in its true context, in keeping with its repeated usage, he will have to accept that the resurrection of the righteous and wicked will continue unabated throughout the full period of this figurative hour. However, this is where Premillennialism hits the rocks. Much against their better judgment, they are required to accept that the resurrection continues progressively for 1000 years period. The millennium will thus involve the gradual resurrection of the dead.

again. when they say "the hour" it's figurative, if they say "in one hour" that's more literal.
secondly. I just showed you 2 separate resurrections in John 5.
2 separate resurrections (separated by 1000 years) in Revelation 20

You're still compressing 2 separate statements by Jesus describing 2 separate resurrections into 1 resurrection.
2 resurrections in John 5
2 resurrections in Revelation 20

Jamdoc · Jun 20, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Most of us will likely sleep through this 60 minutes of darkness.

Sad, how one wrong interpretation leads to another. That is what Premillennialism is! It falls like a deck of cards when you flick any of its main tenets. Even it's proof texts all contradict each other.

Sadly you don't read posts.
I just told you. One hour meeting, leads to a 42 month reign.
Revelation 17:12-13

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

The 10 kings only have power for 1 hour, and yes it will be night time for most of the world. The occult operates behind closed doors, and acts in secret, you'd think you'd know this by now.
But don't worry, it'll be all over the news that in the UN the security council, which will at that time be down to 10 nations that are members, will declare a leader for the entire world, in an emergency meeting.
and he'll reign for 1260 days
42 months
time, time, and half a time.
roughly 3.5 years.

sovereigngrace · Jun 20, 2020

Jamdoc said:

again. when they say "the hour" it's figurative, if they say "in one hour" that's more literal.
secondly. I just showed you 2 separate resurrections in John 5.
2 separate resurrections (separated by 1000 years) in Revelation 20

You're still compressing 2 separate statements by Jesus describing 2 separate resurrections into 1 resurrection.
2 resurrections in John 5
2 resurrections in Revelation 20

Click to expand...

Let us apply your rationale to Revelation 20 then. Where does it mention "one thousand years" in Revelation 20?

Take Revelation 20 out of the equation and Premillennialism falls like a deck of cards. It does not have one single passage that corroborates their theory of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+. There's no mention of your thousand years in John 5.

20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Watching and Praying Always

Watching and Praying Always

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Watching and Praying Always

Well-Known Member

Watching and Praying Always

Watching and Praying Always

Well-Known Member

Similar threads