Do Two Jerusalems kill the Premill doctrine?

mkgal1 said:

Not so. Look at what you quoted:

This is true - beginning in the first century. Now there's even a different form of Judaism in modern times.

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There are likewise many more denominations in Christianity. But it is not the religion, but the people of the nation of Israel in Ezekiel 39:7, who God calls my people Israel.

BABerean2 said:

Do you mean the people celebrating in Tel Aviv, in the video below from 2017?

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

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^^^^^justification for replacement theology of them holding the New Covenant theology group in this forum.... I do not wish to be dragged into a discussion over New Covenant theology.

General Theology

Douggg said:

There are likewise many more denominations in Christianity. But it is not the religion, but the people of the nation of Israel in Ezekiel 39:7, who God calls my people Israel.

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This is actual replacement theology - to assign a name meant for the people of God based on the New Covenant to a secular geopolitical modern nation and exclude the actual faithful people of God.

mkgal1 said:

This is actual replacement theology - to assign a name meant for the people of God based on the New Covenant to a secular geopolitical modern nation and exclude the actual faithful people of God.

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You are mixing up religious beliefs with national identity as descendants of Jacob and his twelve sons. In modern Israel today there are Jews who are Christians, there are Jews who are Orthodox Judaism, there are Jews who are reform Judaism, there are Jews who are conservative Judaism, there are Jews who are aethist, there are Jews who are agnostic.

BABerean2 said:

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

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I believe this only refers to a specific group - the apostate religious leaders of Jesus's day, that didn't recognize their visitation of the One True God. That's why the wrath fell on them.

mkgal1 said:

Please parse out for me the **unconditional ** promises from the Mosaic covenant for me.

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There are no unconditional promises in the Old or Mosaic Covenant. It was a conditional covenant which Israel broke and God rendered inoperative by Jesus death.

However there is the Abrahamic covenant, the Davidic Covenant and the "Palestinian" or land Covenant that God made with Israel and these are unconditional and God will fulfill.

jgr said:

Yes, you obviously "believe His Word as written".

Your word is not His Word.

Your word is the word of modernist dispensational fallacy.

Galatians 3
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

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Yes my word is not His Word- nor is your opinions on verses not his word either! and please get a new insult line- this one is like garbage that has spent too much time out in the heat!

YOu seem to forget that god made more than one promise to Abraham.

mkgal1 said:

I'm not sure what's considered a "spiritualized interpretation " to continue a timeframe. What precedent do you see set in Scripture for a sabbatical cycle to stop and pause? Besides....if you do that, you cut off ALL of Christ's ministry. The years 27 AD - 34 AD are the 70th week, so to cut that off would be to stop the fulfillment clock at 26 AD.

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Well then you need to show th e covenant Jesus empowered in 27 AD for seven years. Then show how He caused the sacrificial system to stop in the midst of that 7 year covenant! (If you say His death ended sacrifices-that is spiritualizing a verse)

Then of course you spiritualize this passage: 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

By making His death (which is three years after the start of the 70week) as being after 483 years!

So enlighten the crowd here as to what happen in 30-34 AD that finished Israels sin and transgressions, Israel anointing the Most holy etc. as well as the covenant Jesus made with Israel for 7 years! Remember Jesus left planet earth in 30 AD.

BABerean2 said:

The Pretrib removal of the Church falls apart with the words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10. The video below proves this fact.

A description of the gathering of the Church is found in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found in chapter 5. There is no trip back to heaven in the passage. It must be imported from another passage to make the pretrib doctrine work.


Since the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20, the "Church Age" cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ. An understanding of the New Covenant kills the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology.

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Well whoever spoke this video you posted is a poor biblical student.

The Day of The Lord Passages in the OT and in REv. are speaking of a period (7 years) and not the return of the Lord.

REv. 6 shows the Day of the Lord happening after teh sixth seal but before teh 7trh and before the trumpets and vials! YOu saying that all those will happen in one day?

Joel 2 speaks of the Day of the Lord and it is a long drawn process (the 7 year tribulation.) Verse 31 has the sun and moon while Jesus has the sun, moon, and demons! Why do you feel there cannot be two times the sun and moon are darkened????

Rev. 6: 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

We have the sun turn black and the moon blood right before the Day of the Lord! and before the trumets and vials and long before Jesus returns!

Yes the New Covenant is an everlsating covenant. and the church is a partaker of that covenant which is made with the house of Israel and Judah! The church benefits from this covenant, but the covenant was not made with the Church!

nolidad said:

Yes my word is not His Word- nor is your opinions on verses not his word either! and please get a new insult line- this one is like garbage that has spent too much time out in the heat!

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If the shoe fits...

When modernist dispensationalism exchanges its fallacy for truth, then my line will change.

nolidad said:

YOu seem to forget that god made more than one promise to Abraham.

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I don't know what god made.

I do know what God made.

He and Paul did not forget.

They were made to the one seed which is Christ.

Galatians 3
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

nolidad said:

There are no unconditional promises in the Old or Mosaic Covenant. It was a conditional covenant which Israel broke and God rendered inoperative by Jesus death.

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Okay, good, we agree on that much.

nolidad said:

However there is the Abrahamic covenant, the Davidic Covenant and the "Palestinian" or land Covenant that God made with Israel and these are unconditional and God will fulfill.

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Please point me in the direction of this in Scripture.....this Palestinian land covenant that is unconditional.

Douggg said:

Christianity is based upon Jesus dying on the cross and resurrected, for the propitiation of sins.

Christianity is not a form of Judaism.

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I wanted to get back to this....because, I believe, a lot of our disagreement is based on this one premise.

The followers of Jesus during His ministry on earth and during the first century were following the Messiah the Hebrew Scriptures foretold of....do you NOT agree with that?

Douggg said:

There are likewise many more denominations in Christianity. But it is not the religion, but the people of the nation of Israel in Ezekiel 39:7, who God calls my people Israel.

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Douggg said:

You are mixing up religious beliefs with national identity as descendants of Jacob and his twelve sons. In modern Israel today there are Jews who are Christians, there are Jews who are Orthodox Judaism, there are Jews who are reform Judaism, there are Jews who are conservative Judaism, there are Jews who are aethist, there are Jews who are agnostic.

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You're right....the definition of the Israel of God is always about the people.....and their faith and allegiance to the one True God. It's not about a location.

nolidad said:

Well then you need to show th e covenant Jesus empowered in 27 AD for seven years. Then show how He caused the sacrificial system to stop in the midst of that 7 year covenant! (If you say His death ended sacrifices-that is spiritualizing a verse)

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"Confirmed " is a more accurate word, and it seems to me the specific covenant confirmed for 7 years is the Davidic Covenant. Jesus said to His disciples:


His death most certainly stopped the annual Atonement sacrifices performed by the High Priest of the temple since the curtain was torn....exposing the empty sanctuary. Also....aren't sacrifices only as authentic as they are accepted by God? Part of the ritual of the sacrifice (as far as I understand) was to wait for God's acceptance of that sacrifice. Do you have evidence of sacrifices being accepted by God after 30 AD?

mkgal1 said:

I wanted to get back to this....because, I believe, a lot of our disagreement is based on this one premise.

The followers of Jesus during His ministry on earth and during the first century were following the Messiah the Hebrew Scriptures foretold of....do you NOT agree with that?

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Yes, to be the King of Israel, descended from king David. Zechariah 9:9

9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Fulfilled in John 12:12-15.
12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,

15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

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The Antichrist will be someone in the near future, who the Jews will embrace for awhile thinking that he is promised King of Israel messiah, coming in his own name, instead of the rightful King of Israel Jesus, who came in the name of the Lord.

In the religion of Judaism - "salvation" to them is about physical salvation, from being destroyed by one's enemy. They take that stance, and make a point of it, that salvation to them is not the same as salvation as Christians view salvation.

mkgal1 said:

You're right....the definition of the Israel of God is always about the people.....and their faith and allegiance to the one True God. It's not about a location

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"Israel of God" is not a term used in Ezekiel 38-39.
When you use that term, and insert it into Ezekiel 38-39, you are pre-supposing a theological belief taken from misapplying some verses in the New Testament.

There are Jews who are Christians living in the nation of Israel over their right now, as citizens of the nation of Israel, part of Israel's national identity. But most of the Jewish citizens are not Christians, but would relate to Judaism.

God calls that nation of people, Jews - my people Israel in Ezekiel 39:7.

Americans can live abroad. But America the nation of America is the home of Americans.

The Jews in Ezekiel 38 and 39, have returned to the land of Israel. Still in unbelief in Jesus for the most part. It is part of the end times scenario to bring the Jews to belief in Jesus.