White Silence is Violence

Tone · Jun 20, 2020

This thread is only for white folks...?

:bye:

grasping the after wind · Jun 20, 2020

2PhiloVoid said:
I think there is substantive semantic difference between saying "All Lives Matter" and "It's ok to be white." The former sounds like an effort to be attentive to issues of equality and/or egalitarianism; the latter sounds like ploy by which White folks attempt to excuse themselves from proactive concerns about JUSTICE for everyone, everywhere.

It might be just a statement of fact. If one is white it is a nice thing to know. If one is not white it is a reminder.

Francis Drake · Jun 20, 2020

The poll choices at the start are very poorly thought out, which is why I won't vote.
The current rage of blacks against whites is deliberately manufactured with completely false information being sown by the media.
If there is any institutional racism, its against white people because of the quota system that favours blacks over whites.

Long before white men set foot in Africa, black Africans had a lucrative trade raiding and capturing their fellow blacks to sell to Arab slave traders.
African slave ships also raided the coasts of Europe, including southern England and Ireland, sometimes completely clearing communities if all habitation. The men were chained in galleys till they died, the white women sold as sex slaves for Arab merchants.

How about us whites showing a bit of resentment and anger against blacks for selling our folk into slavery? When can we rant and rave and set fire to property?

Ana the Ist · Jun 20, 2020

Pavel Mosko said:
Lately I have some of the following observations and insights.

1) Social Justice warriors like to play both sides of an issue, I believe this is just an elaborate game of what was called in the old book "Games People Play", as "Now I've Got You, You Son of a B".

It's a cheap power grab maneuver of putting people on the defensive for anything they may have done in the past, perceived to have done, or in this case what their ancestors might have done, or the system may have done. And what's worse about it is people are not even consistent. At one time, it is bad to ignore black/ African culture, but when that changes and white people begin to embrace various cultural things, then the reverse thing happens where people do the opposite and complain about "cultural appropriation", all of this just points to things just being a power game/ grab of manipulation by the offended.

And I got more to say, but that will start things off.

Games People Play (book) - Wikipedia.

I have noticed the irony of attacking people who share their opinions on the matter to the point where sharing an opinion can cost someone their job....then complaining that people aren't speaking out about the issues they care about.

It shows that they don't really want a discussion or even want to hear opinions. They simply want you to tell them they're right.

bèlla · Jun 20, 2020

I won’t allow any group to manipulate my mind to compel me to find offense where none exists or conjure an enemy in my head. I will continue to judge people by the strength of their character. Not the color of their skin.

I will not be made to believe white is evil and predatory or determined to destroy me when my personal experiences say otherwise.

I won’t permit the media to create a monster that does not exist or make me fearful of other races for social agendas.

I will utilize the reason and deduction I’ve been given and base my decisions on facts not propaganda or group think.

I will appreciate my neighbor in all his hues and celebrate our similarities and differences peacefully.

~Bella

Noxot · Jun 20, 2020

It's important to be an actual person rather than possessed by all these what Max stirner would call spooks which is in his philosophy not a racist term. We focus on specifics and find it to be important and so we speak loudly about this one thing. It may temporarily blind us from everything else or it might make others think that you only think in that way specifically. I'm starting to think that the answer is to simply not care about any of this junk. God is better than all these silly idols. Evil continues to be sickening and goodness continues to be a relief.

2PhiloVoid · Jun 20, 2020

grasping the after wind said:
It might be just a statement of fact. If one is white it is a nice thing to know. If one is not white it is a reminder.

The problem here is that in the U.S. there have been social phenomena promulgated and acted upon by 'White' people, ranging from flat-out bigotry and lynchings to something instead that sounds more affable, like "White Flight," among other things.

The problem here, too, is that as Christians, we're called to be proactive for justice as a part of our faith and not merely be passively un-bigoted.

In fact, I'd say that some of what White Christians have done in the U.S. historically is to work around the responsibilities they should have in being more proactive in seeing justice done on behalf of all people groups, they've been more often than not neglectful to work to improve upon and reduce their ongoing social negligence, a social debit which is (with the letter of James in tow) perhaps a form of sin.

Ana the Ist · Jun 20, 2020

childeye 2 said:
Why would you start off a poll about negative prejudice with "white posters only"...? I'll be surprised if this thread is not closed according to the TOS.

Because I'm curious about how white posters on this forum view their role in racism.

If non-white posters respond, it won't tell me anything about how the white posters see things.

The thread is open to anyone.

Lord Give Me A Sign · Jun 20, 2020

I have been called a cracker 2 or 3 times by my own girlfriend. She said that word when she was angry at me

I did not retaliate, i just let her know it hurt my feelings

Growing up i was a big fan of rap music. I spent alot of time on the hip hop forums where its mostly black members and they are very unfair towards whites. They constantly use racial slurs towards whites. They even call one another white when someone does something that they don't perceive as being black

I have in my life seen more verbal racism of blacks towards whites then i have seen whites towards blacks

But i also see the system being racist towards blacks and oppressing them while whites do have an advantage in America and are less likely to encounter police brutality

Whether its my girlfriend, the hip hop forums and things i have seen in life, i hold nothing against anyone. I just pray for them

I have compassion and sympathy for blacks. I dont know what i would be like if i was born into poverty and faced discrimination because of the color of my skin

Tone · Jun 20, 2020

Well, in that case, I believe that it should all start with revamping the "corrections" system. I think it's less of a color thing these days and more of a divide along the lines of green paper.

Noxot · Jun 20, 2020

2PhiloVoid said:
The problem here is that in the U.S. there have been social phenomena promulgated and acted upon by 'White' people, ranging from flat-out bigotry and lynchings to something instead that sounds more affable, like "White Flight," among other things.

The problem here is that as Christians, we're called to be proactive for justice as a part of our faith and not merely be passively un-bigoted.

In fact, I'd say that some of what White Christians have done in the U.S. historically is to work around their responsibilities to be more proactive in seeing justice done on behalf of all people groups, they've been more often than not neglectful to work to improve upon their ongoing negligence, a social debit which is (with the letter of James in tow) perhaps a form of sin.

Long ago I discovered that humans are insane. Everyone has a responsibility for themselves. Why should anyone depend on humans when they could depend on God? And yet we all co-exist together. I'm going to do my part but I'm not a statist. I'm not a collectivist. I don't care what color my skin or other people's Skins are. The solution is the kingdom of God, not human beings trying to dominate and gain advantages for their divided selves. Ultimate Unity is only possible by Unity with God.

istodolez · Jun 20, 2020

Ana the Ist said:
I'd like this thread to be an honest open discussion about racism and the current iteration of the Black Lives Movement. I feel like that's something hard to do on this forum with all the flaming, and goading, and finger pointing. Please don't post some snarky 2 sentence joke or trolling statement, don't try to make this about Trump or any other politician. Please, try to make a thoughtful post that adds to the discussion.

In the past couple of weeks, I've noticed a more aggressive and more direct tone and message from the protesters, BLM, and it's supporters. The title of the thread is a phrase I've seen thrown around a lot. The phrase White Silence is Violence. It's also written as To Be Silent Is To Be Complicit. For example...

Black Lives Matter: Silence is 'complicity,' say many white protesters | News24

I disagree with the message. That simply isn't how problems work. The problem, generally speaking, is racism towards blacks. The word complicit has a pretty specific meaning....

Definition of COMPLICIT

helping to commit a crime or do wrong in some way

If I told you that staying silent about Islamic terrorism made you complicit, you would probably think I had gone bonkers. Simply not talking about a problem doesn't make you a part of the problem.

I also think it's wrong that this statement is, in any meaningful way, directed at white people....as if racism is all our fault. In many cases, I think the people saying it want white people to speak up against the racism they hear from other white people. The reality is though, that I along with many other white people, don't hear any racism from the people we are around the vast majority of the time. I work in law enforcement and I can honestly say I don't remember the last time any of my friends or coworkers said anything racist....even a little bit racist.

If you don't think this message is directed at white people....here's a recent example...

Steve Harvey Calls BLM Protests ‘One of the Greatest Movements Since the Civil Rights Movement’

Kimberly Jones is an Atlanta based BLM activist...

"I think the only way something is going to come out of this is if we start making the necessary changes ourselves," Jones said. "Because it's been proven time and time again that we're on our own. The saddest part about that is that racism is not a Black issue that white people need to empathize with. Racism is a white problem. They caused it. They need to fix it. But I don't have faith anymore that that's going to happen."

This is a view that a shocking number of people hold. It's been hinted at for years....when ideas like white privilege were used to shame white people. It's the subtext when the same people tried to redefine racism as something only white people are guilty of. It's implied in ideas like "white fragility" and "whitesplaining".

A couple of years back, research showed that only white people....specifically white liberals....are the only racial group with an out-group bias. That means out of each racial group, only white people viewed themselves in a more negative way than others. A lot of conservatives found this amusing....I found it sad.

No one should ever be ashamed of their skin color. No one should view themselves in a negative way because of their skin color. This is a relatively new phenomenon and I can only imagine that it's because of the constant shaming and blaming of whites that has been allowed to go on for so long.

The reason it's gone on for so long is that BLM and other activists and race "scholars" have pushed this viewpoint and they do not allow for any honest and open debate or discussion (like the one I'm trying to have here). If you don't agree with them, you're labeled a racist and part of the problem. This creates an echo chamber where only one opinion is allowed. That's why we're seeing openly racist statements about white people (like the one above). That's why black people are advocating for discrimination against whites in job hiring (which I also have a thread on).

This is why I cannot support BLM even though I believe in racial equality and accountability for police. Their methods are faulty....and their message is too often deplorably racist.

There shouldn't be anything controversial about saying "All Lives Matter" or "It's ok to be white". Those are simple truths that everyone should agree with.

I could go on...but I fear I've lost most readers by now lol. I look forward to seeing your thoughts about this issue.

Over the past year or so I've read "The New Jim Crow" by Michele Alexander, "How to be an Antiracist" by Ibram Kendi and "White Fragility" by Robin D'Angelo.

I loved "The New Jim Crow" as it was academically robust without being dry and it really pointed to a clear systemic problem within our nation. "How to be an Antiracist" was interesting but felt more like a course syllabus for an african-american studies class.

But by far the hardest one to get through was "White Fragility". I will assume you have some familiarity with it. Her thesis is built on the idea that all of us in America who are white are part of and benefit from a racist system and are inherently "racist". It is a variant of "white privilege" which puts the onus on us to either accept that we enjoy these benefits or asks us to step away completely from everything we have benefited from. That's a tough call.

I will say at the outset that there were things about D'Angelo's suggested approach that I found more difficult to internalize. More about that in a bit...

In "White Fragility" we hear that many black people feel that any time white people try to seriously discuss racism it ultimately ends up as a way to force black people to somehow "ameliorate" our collective guilt for white systemic racism and that "makes it about the white person". And to some extent I see that. Any time a white person is faced with their privilege they kind of knee-jerk respond by claiming they had it tough and have no "privilege" or some other way of distancing themselves from the very system which has benefited them non-stop. OR they try to claim that they, themselves, are not racist...they "don't see color" or whatever. The "I don't see color" is not considered a solid position these days because it delegitimizes the real lived experience by people of color.

It's an ideal we should strive toward but we CANNOT live like that until we have accepted our collective responsibility in supporting a system that inherently benefits us as white and has systematically developed a counter-system which disenfranchises people of color.

Justice is not a pie, but access to resources is. If we who enjoy all the benefits of a system custom built to make OUR access to resources much easier than someone else's don't do something then we are complicit in that system's continued existence. Hence "White silence = violence".

Now for the part of D'Angelo's book that I had trouble with: she further claimed that people's intentions should have no bearing on the conversation. She gives an example of how she said something totally innocently that offended a woman of color. (D'Agnelo is white). D'angelo, in order to maintain her central thesis, then had to admit that her completely innocent INTENTION had no bearing on her crime. That no matter how much she had NOT intended to be racist the fact that someone interpretted it as such (based on historical use of the concept she had been talking about) meant she was guilty no matter what. Personally I feel that "intentions" can be good. And that should count for something. But overall the rest of the book was an interesting read and a call to action for white people to pay close attention to our actions always.

I DO benefit from white privilege. I always have. I struggle to figure out how I can change the system as I have little direct control of anything...but it is something I must work toward. I am not allowed to simply enjoy the benefits without thinking where they come from. In that distant future day when I have the opportunity to do the RIGHT THING I hope my awareness of my complicity in the white privilege I enjoy will help me to do the right thing and not just maintain status quo.

2PhiloVoid · Jun 20, 2020

Noxot said:
Long ago I discovered that humans are insane. Everyone has a responsibility for themselves. Why should anyone depend on humans when they could depend on God? And yet we all co-exist together. I'm going to do my part but I'm not a statist. I'm not a collectivist. I don't care what color my skin or other people's Skins are. The solution is the kingdom of God, not human beings trying to dominate and gain advantages for their divided selves. Ultimate Unity is only possible by Unity with God.

Are you questioning what I've written, Noxot? I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing.

istodolez · Jun 20, 2020

Tone said:
Well, in that case, I believe that it should all start with revamping the "corrections" system. I think it's less of a color thing these days and more of a divide along the lines of green paper.

It's a color-thing in that it systematically targets people of color but it also has the added wrinkle of a money thing as well. But since the system has been set up to ensure a systemic difference between income levels of whites and people of color it winds up being a color-thing even moreso.

I highly recommend "The New Jim Crow" by Michele Alexander. It is a good outline of how Jim Crow, initially set up as a means to maintain black second-class status post Civil War ultimately morphed into the mass incarceration system we have today. It appears that shortly after the Civil War many poor whites in the South were starting to work closely with poor blacks newly freed from slavery and the "powers that be" figured that as a bloc that would be difficult to manage so it became necessary to exploit some of the natural racial fissures to ensure that poor whites saw themselves SEPARATE from poor blacks even though they were both dirt poor and disadvantaged. This helped build up the stratification which kept black people at the bottom of the pecking order.

grasping the after wind · Jun 20, 2020

2PhiloVoid said:
The problem here is that in the U.S. there have been social phenomena promulgated and acted upon by 'White' people, ranging from flat-out bigotry and lynchings to something instead that sounds more affable, like "White Flight," among other things.

The problem here is that as Christians, we're called to be proactive for justice as a part of our faith and not merely be passively un-bigoted.

In fact, I'd say that some of what White Christians have done in the U.S. historically is to work around their responsibilities to be more proactive in seeing justice done on behalf of all people groups, as well as be neglectful to work to improve upon this negligence which is (with the letter of James in tow) perhaps a form of sin.

I have read the letter of James. Found nothing about dividing people up into skin color groups there. Nothing about shaming whole groups of people based upon their skin color. Nothing about being "proactive for justice". The overriding message of the New Testament, including James, is to love your neighbor. How can I love my white neighbor if I insist it is not ok to be white? If you object to the idea that it is ok to be white then you must think it is not ok to be white. Just as if someone objects to the idea that black is beautiful or that black lives matter they must think black is not beautiful or that black lives don't matter. I cannot love my neighbor if I do not consider my neighbor to be a unique individual rather than a representative of a group. How can I love a neighbor if I see my neighbor as only a representative of a skin color group and I believe that it is not ok to have that skin color.

istodolez · Jun 20, 2020

Noxot said:
I don't care what color my skin or other people's Skins are.

This is a noble attitude, but unfortunately it is not appropriate at this time. In order to deal with the real-world problems racism has caused we must FIRST understand the lived experience of those whose skins are a different color from ours. We cannot move to the glory of dessert before we've choked down our brussel sprouts.

The solution is the kingdom of God, not human beings trying to dominate and gain advantages for their divided selves. Ultimate Unity is only possible by Unity with God.

If people hadn't been able to utilize the Bible itself to support their racist views we might have something there. I'm not saying that God likes slavery or racism (not because the Bible stands against it or anything like that) but rather that there have been well-meaning people who thought they were following God's words who used those same words to justify their own racism. They may have been wrong but it doesn't really matter, does it. God himself has not stepped in to keep George Floyd from being choked to death on the pavement. So we are left with taking actions ourselves.

2PhiloVoid · Jun 20, 2020

grasping the after wind said:
I have read the letter of James. Found nothing about dividing people up into skin color groups there. Nothing about shaming whole groups of people based upon their skin color. Nothing about being "proactive for justice". The overriding message of the New Testament, including James, is to love your neighbor. How can I love my white neighbor if I insist it is not ok to be white? If you object to the idea that it is ok to be white then you must think it is not ok to be white. Just as if someone objects to the idea that black is beautiful or that black lives matter they must think black is not beautiful or that black lives don't matter. I cannot love my neighbor if I do not consider my neighbor to be a unique individual rather than a representative of a group.

False dichotomization, bro! False dichotomization. For me to criticize so-called "White Folks" ISN'T the obverse of embracing all that they are before the face of Christ.

Let's get that straight, right now!

And yes, the Letter of James DOES apply in this situation. Read the whole letter.

dzheremi · Jun 20, 2020

Robin D'Angelo is a schmuck and nobody should be buying her stupid book or giving her money for one of her public white guilt orgies...er, I mean, seminars.

For someone who talks so much about how inherently guilty everyone is if they're white, she sure doesn't seem to mind cashing checks made from promulgating that message as a white lady. Every time a Robin D'Angelo book gets assigned in some college course or as part of some corporate diversity initiative, that's one less person who will have time to read or listen to James Baldwin, Maya Angelou, Angela Davis, or anyone else who actually knows what the hell they're talking about.

Noxot · Jun 20, 2020

2PhiloVoid said:
Are you questioning what I've written, Noxot? I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing.

I don't know. my first knee jerk reaction was that the solution is to function in the lower rather than the higher. I have no faith in human systems. ;/

Heavenly Unity cannot be created bottom up. Unity of individuals that form X group is still a separation from other groups. To focus on your race is to not focus on God and the things that are eternal. In Heaven There is diversity. There can be no Union without separation. But race is part of the animal human which Fades away. It's only a theme so that we can either do good or evil with it. I am more my soul and my spirit than I am My Flesh. I think that only the radicalness of the Kingdom of Heaven truly solves these problems and so there is no point to play politics games or race games. I hereby renounce my whiteness. I don't care about it one iota nor about any color. Animals are dead and only actual persons are eternal. Anything concerned with race is now a filthy rag to me that I Cast Away From Me.

grasping the after wind · Jun 20, 2020

Noxot said:
I don't know. my first knee jerk reaction was that the solution is to function in the lower rather than the higher. I have no faith in human systems. ;/

Heavenly Unity cannot be created bottom up. Unity of individuals that form X group is still a separation from other groups. To focus on your race is to not focus on God and the things that are eternal. In Heaven There is diversity. There can be no Union without separation. But race is part of the animal human which Fades away. It's only a theme so that we can either do good or evil with it. I am more my soul and my spirit than I am My Flesh. I think that only the radicalness of the Kingdom of Heaven truly solves these problems and so there is no point to play politics games or race games. I hereby renounce my whiteness. I don't care about it one iota nor about any color. Animals are dead and only actual persons are eternal. Anything concerned with race is now a filthy rag to me that I Cast Away From Me.

Did you ever embrace your whiteness? Do you have to renounce it if you never embraced it?

White Silence is Violence

White Posters Only- Do you see the problem of racism against black people as...

1. The fault of white people everywhere, including yourself, either consciously or unconsciously

2. The fault of other white people, you make mistakes, but you don't really hold any racist views

3. The fault of everyone regardless of race. We are all racist sometimes.

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

That's grasping after the wind

Returning adventurer.

Aggressively serene!

❤️

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"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

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That's grasping after the wind

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