Not a worldwide event

shilohsfoal said:

So you believe the Vatican has no power and can't even defend itself from children much less adults, at the same time you believe it reins over kings.

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By influence, due to the number of Catholics around the world.

shilohsfoal said:

Oh Yea. Everyone bows down to those ruthless catholics. Thier terrible I tell ya.

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It is a matter of votes. And how leaders want to be perceived by the people they rule over.

Douggg said:

It is a matter of votes. And how leaders want to be perceived by the people they rule over.

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Can you remind me where in the text of Daniel you see a 2,000 years gap (or even indefinetly bigger) between Nero and the EU?

Also, why is it the EU and not the USA or Russia?

solid_core said:

Can you remind me where in the text of Daniel you see a 2,000 years gap (or even indefinetly bigger) between Nero and the EU?

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There is not direct statement on the size of the gap in Daniel. There is the indication by the characteristic of the time of the end, of many running to and fro and knowledge increased. Which we have 20/20 hindsight to. And also the parable of the fig tree.

The transgression of desolation to be committed by the little horn person is said to be time of the end in Daniel 8:13-17.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Douggg said:

I am implying this rapture timing...

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^^^^^^this...... Bab2 holds to New Covenant theology group.

For the sake of people who do not realize it - there is an ongoing clash in this forum and outside of the forum between New Covenant theology and Dispensationalism.

The two are found in the general theology forum, as two theological groups.

General Theology

Which because that clash, them holding New Covenant theology - attempt to call me a dispenstationalist, which I am not. So I had to put it in personal information description below my screen-name cross and open-grave avatar as being "non-dispensatonalist".

That doesn't seem to affect some of New Covenant theology group - so I now sometimes have to highlight my position to them with this copy and paste....

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There is another ongoing clash going on between partial preterists and futurists, as well.

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Former Dispensationalist Jerry Johnson reveals the fact that the Two Peoples of God doctrine is the core teaching of modern Dispensational Theology, in the video below.

The Two Peoples of God doctrine is a form of Dual Covenant Theology, based on race.

Nobody claimed before 1826 that modern Orthodox Jews would come to faith in Christ, outside of the Church. This is a modern doctrine developed by Dispensationalists.

Modern Dispensational Theology claims God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary.

.

solid_core said:

Also, why is it the EU and not the USA or Russia?

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Because the little horn is the prince who shall come from the people who destroyed the temple and city.

And the direction he comes from is north and west of Israel.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Douggg said:

There is not direct statement on the size of the gap in Daniel. There is the indication by the characteristic of the time of the end, of many running to and fro and knowledge increased. Which we have 20/20 hindsight to. And also the parable of the fig tree.

The transgression of desolation to be committed by the little horn person is said to be time of the end in Daniel 8:13-17.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

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The part "knowledge will be increased" is just in one textual variant of Daniel and it actually can be applied to anything we want. Is it not too little for creating whole theology around it?

Also, how do you deal with the New Testament, for example:

"There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Mt 16:27

Matthew and a lot of other places make any gap ruled out.

Douggg said:

Because the little horn is the prince who shall come from the people who destroyed the temple and city.

And the direction he comes from is north and west of Israel.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

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The USA and Canada are both north and west of Israel... so what now?

solid_core said:

The part "knowledge will be increased" is just in one textual variant of Daniel and it actually can be applied to anything we want. Is it not too little for creating whole theology around it?

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I would not create an whole theology around it. The mystery of God in Revelation 10:7 requires that we study the prophets in the old testament, to understand it.

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

solid_core said:

The USA and Canada are both north and west of Israel... so what now?

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The United States and Canada were part of the Romans which destroyed the temple and city.

Douggg said:

I would not create an whole theology around it. The mystery of God in Revelation 10:7 requires that we study the prophets in the old testament, to understand it.

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

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It must firstable make sense with clear teachings of the Lord and of his apostles.

The Lord said it will happen in His generation, not 2,000 years later. So the Lord did not put any gap into Daniel. Why should we?

Douggg said:

The United States and Canada were part of the Romans which destroyed the temple and city.

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Really? How so? How were they part of the Titus army?

BABerean2 said:

Former Dispensationalist Jerry Johnson reveals the fact that the Two Peoples of God doctrine is the core teaching of modern Dispensational Theology, in the video below.

The Two Peoples of God doctrine is a form of Dual Covenant Theology, based on race.

Nobody claimed before 1826 that modern Orthodox Jews would come to faith in Christ, outside of the Church. This is a modern doctrine developed by Dispensationalists.

Modern Dispensational Theology claims God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary.

.

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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^New Covenant theology group battle with Dispensationalists, playing out in this forum, by BaB2. I do not want to get involved.

General Theology

solid_core said:

It must firstable make sense with clear teachings of the Lord and of his apostles.

The Lord said it will happen in His generation, not 2,000 years later. So the Lord did not put any gap into Daniel. Why should we?

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According to the text - in the parable of the fig tree generation that will see the events of Matthew 24:15 to Matthew 24:30 - when the end shall come, including Jesus's return.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Daniel 12:11-12 is time of the end, prefaced by Daniel 12:4.

Do you believe the rapture has taken place yet?

Douggg said:

According to the text - in the parable of the fig tree generation that will see the events of Matthew 24:15 to Matthew 24:30 - when the end shall come, including Jesus's return.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Daniel 12:11-12 is time of the end, prefaced by Daniel 12:4.

Do you believe the rapture has taken place yet?

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I do not get why you choose only some verses. All verses must fit together. The generation Jesus is talking about was the generation that was alive in His times, as clearly said.

And you rightly pointed out that Jesus was saying that its what Daniel said. So it was in that time, not in 2,000 years distant future.

"There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Mt 16:27

"there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they see the kingdom of God having come in power. "
Mk 8:38

"there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the kingdom of God. "
Lk 9:26-27

"...In no wise will ye have completed the cities of Israel, until the Son of man be come."
Mt 10:23

"This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Mt 24:34

"this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. "
Mk 13:30

"This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. "
Lk 21:22, 26, 32

---- You are claiming that all these verses are wrong.

Douggg said:

Do you believe the rapture has taken place yet?

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I am kind of agnostic what rapture was supposed to mean and how it happened. We did not live in those times so its hard to guess.

solid_core said:

I do not get why you choose only some verses. All verses must fit together. The generation Jesus is talking about was the generation that was alive in His times, as clearly said.

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In the olivet discourse Jesus gave the near term, the long term, the end times future of Israel, the Jews. My chart in its three sections, and headings, show which verses apply to those three divisions.

solid_core said:

"There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Mt 16:27

"there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they see the kingdom of God having come in power. "
Mk 8:38

"there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the kingdom of God. "
Lk 9:26-27

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In Acts 1, some of the disciples withnessed Jesus leave this earth, which Jesus came into his Kingdom in heaven.

In Daniel 7:13-14 is the heaven side of that event.

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Douggg said:

In the olivet discourse Jesus gave the near term, the long term, the end times future of Israel, the Jews. My chart in its three sections, and headings, show which verses apply to those three divisions.

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Yes, you have all kind of nice tables and charts, but its just all invented. Both Jesus, Daniel, apostles and history must fit together. There is no huge gap in their words. "This generation" means just 40-70 years.

Jerusalem was already destroyed, temple was already destroyed, regular sacrifices were stopped, new covenant was established, the kingdom of God came. There is no need for repetition of it again in such distant future.