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We both need to identify WHO IS UNDER THE LAW, in this context. True or false?
That is exactly what I gathered and anylized the scripture to do. I understand it.
In Rom chapter 3 the Jews are Israel.
Faulty premise.
SO ISRAEL IS UNDER THE LAW.
Faulty conclusion.
Proving this context identify Jews as under the law.
Proving nothing.
2 Much in every manner. For first, indeed, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God."
It's actually a no-brainer that Paul is referencing the Jews, as those who are under the law in Rom 3:19.
I think it would be fair to assume that the Jews would be included among every mouth in the entire world.
Let's read it again:
19 Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,
Yes, it doesn't specifically say Jews; but I, sure that they would be included.
That's kinda funny. Your highlighted words are trying to say, the text is saying, the entire world is under the law
I don't know how you came to that conclusion. That's not what Paul said. He said that every mouth in the entire world may become subject to YHWH's just verdict.
and not the Jews.
Why would you suppose that "the Jews" would be excluded from every mouth in the entire world?
And that, everyone will be judged by the law.
That is not what this verse actually says. Let's read it again for clarity.
19 Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,
Paul comments further on this subject here:
(CLV) Ro 2:12
for whoever sinned without law, without law also shall perish, and whoever sinned in law, through law will be judged.
(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
That would contradict what Paul establishes as Christian doctrine in Rm 3:20 and 21. That judgement will not be by the law.
(CLV) Ro 3:20
because, by works of law, not flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin.
(CLV) Ro 3:21
Yet now, apart from law, a righteousness of God is manifest (being attested by the law and the prophets),
This verse says that you won't be exonerated by works of law; but "works of law" opens up another can of Paul's beans.
The Judaeans we're well familiar with YHWH's Law (Torah), but they were also practicing Works of Law.
I don't see "Works of Law" mentioned in the Torah. I don't see any mention of it by Yahshua. Paul is the only one in the Bible to use this expression. Where is Paul getting this?
It is mentioned 6 times in Galatians, and maybe 2 times in Romans.
Galatians 2:16, 3:2, 3:5, 3:10 Romans 3:27, 9:32
It is also mentioned in the Qumran Scrolls.
Q394 (4QMMTa) 4QHalakhic Letter
Dead Sea Scrolls Project: 4QMMT
Definition of halacha
: the body of Jewish law supplementing the scriptural law and forming especially the legal part of the Talmud
Definition of HALACHA
Yahshua rebuked putting the traditions of men over the Torah. Yahshua kept the Torah and called us to follow his example. Paul followed yahshua's example and called us to follow his example.
(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.
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Here is what Paul says in Galatians 2 concerning works of law:
(CLV) Ga 2:16
having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall not flesh at all be justified.
But here is what Paul said in Romans 2 concerning law:
(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
Now either Paul can't keep his story straight; or works of law is different than law.
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What is Paul referring to in Galatians 3:10?
Galatians 3
10 For whoever are of works of law are under a curse, for it written that, Accursed is everyone who is not remaining in all things written in the scroll of the law to do them.
Deuteronomy 27
15 Cursed be the man who makes a carving or a molten image, an abhorrence to Yahweh, the work of an artificer's hands, and places it in concealment. Then all the people will respond and say:Amen!" 16 Cursed be the one dishonoring his father or his mother. Then all the people shall say:Amen! 17 Cursed be the one moving the boundary marker of his associate. Then all the people will say:Amen! 18 Cursed be the one causing the blind to err on the road. Then all the people will say:Amen! 19 Cursed be the one turning aside the judgment of the sojourner, the orphan or the widow. Then all the people will say:Amen!" 20 Cursed be the one lying with the wife of his father, for he exposes his father's hem. Then all the people will say:Amen!" 21 Cursed be the one lying with any beast. Then all the people will say:Amen! 22 Cursed be the one lying with his sister, the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother. Then all the people will say:Amen!" 23 Cursed be the one lying with his sister-in-law. Then all the people will say:Amen! 24 Cursed be the one smiting his associate in concealment. Then all the people will say:Amen! 25 Cursed be the one taking a bribe to smite a soul of innocent blood. Then all the people will say:Amen! 26 Cursed be the one who is not performing all the words of this law to do them. Then all the people will say:Amen!
Certainly he is not saying that Yahshua died so that we are free to take part in all of the wickedness.
That's what Rom 3:9 says... all under sin, not all under law.
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
What is sin?
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Hark, Not so fast, Where does it say that the whole world will be judged by the law in Rom 3?
Paul defined two groups early in this letter. The chapters and verses were not in the original letter. These were added later. In order to truly grasp what Paul is attempting to say in this letter; it must be read as a letter.
(CLV) Ro 2:12
for whoever sinned without law, without law also shall perish, and whoever sinned in law, through law will be judged.
(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
There are those who will die; and there are those who will be judged.
What did I say that was not civil in that post? I brought up sin because Hebrew 3:9 said "all have sinned." You're claiming that bringing up sin means bringing up law breaking. Not true. You have a premise that; "sin is transgression of the law. NOT ME. My explanation of 1John 3:4 is different than yours. I don't agree that you can inject this premise on Paul, so that you can contradict Paul's authority and doctrine. As we walk through Rom 3, you pull the brakes on Paul right before he says in Rom 3:20-21 That God's judgement and righteousness will not be by the law.
This has nothing to do with Paul's authority. Scripture doesn't contradict itself. If there seems to be a contradiction; it is a sign that we are not properly understanding the scripture. Paul so not so easy to understand. However, Yahshua is crystal clear.
(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.
Nothing Paul says can override Yahshua.
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