Why are some trying to fool us about chilioi(thousand) in the NT?

BABerean2

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If the latter this would indicate this martyrdom is taking place while satan is in the pit,

Satan is in the bottomless pit now, based on the scripture below.


Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.


Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.



.
2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.



Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


How many bottomless pits do you think there are?

.
 
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BABerean2

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Would you at least take the Tribe names as literal? If so, why one and not the other?

Would it be the same group James was talking to in the passage below?

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Satan is in the bottomless pit now, based on the scripture below.


Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.


Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.



.
2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.



Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


How many bottomless pits do you think there are?

.

Exactly, and, how many bindings of Satan are there?
 
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DamianWarS

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Now that you have provided all of that, where some of it is fairly easy to comprehend, and that some of it can be a bit over ones' head, assuming that maybe not everyone might fully grasp things such as(2 nouns thousand(normative, feminine, plural) year(genitive, neuter, plural), I know I don't---perhaps you can answer the following, then. As to me, in general I like to try and keep things somewhat simple. Even when keeping things simple, things can still be proved some of the time.


To illustrate what exactly I will be asking here, let me start out in this manner.

In the English language, two thousand. What English word plus the same English word equals two thousand?

Is not this English word thousand? thousand plus thousand equals two thousand. What does this tell us about thousand in general? By itself it equals exactly 1000, because if it didn't, it would be impossible to add thousand plus thousand then arrive at two thousand. I can't imagine any reasonable person trying or even wanting to dispute this.

With the above in mind. Let's use the exact same logic and apply it below in the exact same manner.

In the Greek language, dischilioi. We already know that equals 2000. So, what Greek word plus the same Greek word equals dischilioi?

Once it has been determined what Greek word plus the same Greek word equals dischilioi, what should this be telling us about this Greek word in general? By itself it has to literally be meaning exactly 1000 in order to arrive at 2000 if one were to add this same Greek word twice.
I'm not advocating it is a literal thousand or an undetermined thousand. I'm arguing the grammar doesn't demand it is an undetermined thousand years.

Saying "thousand years" (without an article) in English is awkward and you might get someone asking you what you mean or correcting you. I get your logic I however don't think it translates well to English and you would have to make a more compelling case with biblical examples.

For example are there any unambiguous references where "thousand" absolutely means a literal one thousand in the bible? Can other numbers be referenced the same way like "hundred" over "one hundred". What do translations favour? and are their any cases where translations are more explicit? Translations are translated by Greek scholars and if the overwhelming amount of translations show a specific reading then an argument can be made to support that reading.

I don't know, I haven't checked those things out, but I think it would make a more compelling argument then what you're making, if nothing else it helps to build your case. To me the context is a greater factor into if it's a literal thousand or undetermined so even if translated correctly as "a thousand years" it still might not be literal and I'm not sure we really can answer this with certainty.
 
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Berean
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In what way are connecting John 19:30 with a 3rd day? But there is a 3rd connected with that, but that would be when He rises not when He dies. Even that presents a problem with the interpretation, since 2 of those days, which would be represented by today and tomorrow, He would be dead during, thus not performing cures during that time. One thing that seems obvious then, regardless that I haven't really thought much about this passage as of yet, three 24 hour days can't be meant.
That's because the Jews counted any part of a day or night as one day.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I'm not advocating it is a literal thousand or an undetermined thousand. I'm arguing the grammar doesn't demand it is an undetermined thousand years.

Saying "thousand years" (without an article) in English is awkward and you might get someone asking you what you mean or correcting you. I get your logic I however don't think it translates well to English and you would have to make a more compelling case with biblical examples.

For example are there any unambiguous references where "thousand" absolutely means a literal one thousand in the bible? Can other numbers be referenced the same way like "hundred" over "one hundred". What do translations favour? and are their any cases where translations are more explicit? Translations are translated by Greek scholars and if the overwhelming amount of translations show a specific reading then an argument can be made to support that reading.

I don't know, I haven't checked those things out, but I think it would make a more compelling argument then what you're making, if nothing else it helps to build your case. To me the context is a greater factor into if it's a literal thousand or undetermined so even if translated correctly as "a thousand years" it still might not be literal and I'm not sure we really can answer this with certainty.

Sadly, the only thing you are proving is your own theological bias and your total ignorance of the usage of the phrase "a thousand" in Scripture. Please address the questions below that premillennialists avoid like the plague.

Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one."

This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?
 
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Berean
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So, you just totally avoided my simple question. I will take your avoidance as a concession that you (or no Premil) has an answer for that crucial and elementary question.
I didn't have time at my posting, but your free to draw your own conclusion as you apparently have done already...
So, where, outside of the highly symbolic setting of Revelation 20, did the Old Testament prophets, Jesus or the New Testament writers mention this supposed literal thousand years period? The burden of proof is with you.

He shall judge between the nations, (Mt 25) and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.
(Isa 2:4)...obviously future,

Righteousness shall be the belt of his waist, and faithfulness the belt of his loins. The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples—of him shall the nations inquire, and his resting place shall be glorious. In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant that remains of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea. He will raise a signal for the nations and will assemble the banished of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. The jealousy of Ephraim shall depart, and those who harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not be jealous of Judah, and Judah shall not harass Ephraim. But they shall swoop down on the shoulder of the Philistines in the west, and together they shall plunder the people of the east. They shall put out their hand against Edom and Moab, and the Ammonites shall obey them. And the LORD will utterly destroy the tongue of the Sea of Egypt, and will wave his hand over the River with his scorching breath, and strike it into seven channels, and he will lead people across in sandals. And there will be a highway from Assyria for the remnant that remains of his people, as there was for Israel when they came up from the land of Egypt.
(Isa 11:5-16)

And on that day there shall be inscribed on the bells of the horses, “Holy to the LORD.” And the pots in the house of the LORD shall be as the bowls before the altar. And every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holy to the LORD of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and take of them and boil the meat of the sacrifice in them. And there shall no longer be a trader in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day. (Zec 14:20-21)

“I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph. I will bring them back because I have compassion on them, and they shall be as though I had not rejected them, for I am the LORD their God and I will answer them. Then Ephraim shall become like a mighty warrior, and their hearts shall be glad as with wine. Their children shall see it and be glad; their hearts shall rejoice in the LORD. “I will whistle for them and gather them in, for I have redeemed them, and they shall be as many as they were before. Though I scattered them among the nations, yet in far countries they shall remember me, and with their children they shall live and return. I will bring them home from the land of Egypt, and gather them from Assyria, and I will bring them to the land of Gilead and to Lebanon, till there is no room for them. He shall pass through the sea of troubles and strike down the waves of the sea, and all the depths of the Nile shall be dried up. The pride of Assyria shall be laid low, and the scepter of Egypt shall depart. I will make them strong in the LORD, and they shall walk in his name,” declares the LORD. (Zec 10:6-12)

There are many more, but I realize this is most likely an exercise in futility for if one is in the habit of spiritualizing text, then you can make it say pretty much anything you want.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I didn't have time at my posting, but your free to draw your own conclusion as you apparently have done already...


He shall judge between the nations, (Mt 25) and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.
(Isa 2:4)...obviously future,

Righteousness shall be the belt of his waist, and faithfulness the belt of his loins. The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples—of him shall the nations inquire, and his resting place shall be glorious. In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant that remains of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea. He will raise a signal for the nations and will assemble the banished of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. The jealousy of Ephraim shall depart, and those who harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not be jealous of Judah, and Judah shall not harass Ephraim. But they shall swoop down on the shoulder of the Philistines in the west, and together they shall plunder the people of the east. They shall put out their hand against Edom and Moab, and the Ammonites shall obey them. And the LORD will utterly destroy the tongue of the Sea of Egypt, and will wave his hand over the River with his scorching breath, and strike it into seven channels, and he will lead people across in sandals. And there will be a highway from Assyria for the remnant that remains of his people, as there was for Israel when they came up from the land of Egypt.
(Isa 11:5-16)

And on that day there shall be inscribed on the bells of the horses, “Holy to the LORD.” And the pots in the house of the LORD shall be as the bowls before the altar. And every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holy to the LORD of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and take of them and boil the meat of the sacrifice in them. And there shall no longer be a trader in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day. (Zec 14:20-21)

“I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph. I will bring them back because I have compassion on them, and they shall be as though I had not rejected them, for I am the LORD their God and I will answer them. Then Ephraim shall become like a mighty warrior, and their hearts shall be glad as with wine. Their children shall see it and be glad; their hearts shall rejoice in the LORD. “I will whistle for them and gather them in, for I have redeemed them, and they shall be as many as they were before. Though I scattered them among the nations, yet in far countries they shall remember me, and with their children they shall live and return. I will bring them home from the land of Egypt, and gather them from Assyria, and I will bring them to the land of Gilead and to Lebanon, till there is no room for them. He shall pass through the sea of troubles and strike down the waves of the sea, and all the depths of the Nile shall be dried up. The pride of Assyria shall be laid low, and the scepter of Egypt shall depart. I will make them strong in the LORD, and they shall walk in his name,” declares the LORD. (Zec 10:6-12)

There are many more, but I realize this is most likely an exercise in futility for if one is in the habit of spiritualizing text, then you can make it say pretty much anything you want.

When did "the last days" begin? When do they end? When is "the last day" of "the last days"?
 
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Berean
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Would it be the same group James was talking to in the passage below?

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

.
I believe James is addressing Jewish believers (as distinct from Gentile believers) by using that term.
 
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Berean
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When did "the last days" begin? When do they end? When is "the last day" of "the last days"?
I won't let you chase me around interrogating me with questions I did not address. Why don't you address my post which you had challenged me to do with your post?
 
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sovereigngrace

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I believe James is addressing Jewish believers (as distinct from Gentile believers) by using that term.

There is neither Jew or Greek in the NT. It is hard to get Premils (1) out of the old covenant era, (2) away from a racial gospel and (3) a out from hyper-literalist hermeneutics. That was the problem with the Pharisees.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I won't let you chase me around interrogating me with questions I did not address. Why don't you address my post which you had challenged me to do with your post?

I wonder why there is such avoidance from Premils in every single thread on every single subject??? Because they have only one string to their guitar and it is making a very monotonous sound: “what saith Revelation 20?” Amils hold: “what saith the Scripture?”
 
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Berean
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There is neither Jew or Greek in the NT. It is hard to get Premils (1) out of the old covenant era, (2) a way from a racial gospel and (3) a hyper-literalist hermeneutics. That was the problem with the Pharisees.
That's (neither Jew nor Gentile) in reference to our standing/justification in Christ, otherwise are you saying there is neither male or female in the Church?
Old Covenant era? You sound like a hyper-dispensationalist now.
The problem with the Pharisees and Sadducees is they stuck to their Tradition above God's Word. But if one's Tradition spiritualizes God's Word, in the long run you make it of no effect.
 
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sovereigngrace

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That's (neither Jew nor Gentile) in reference to our standing/justification in Christ, otherwise are you saying there is neither male or female in the Church?

Racial apartheid exists within Premil circles, not Amil. Amils consider all races are part of the same lone unitary family.

Old Covenant era? You sound like a hyper-dispensationalist now.

And, how do you remotely come to that conclusion? Do you not believe the old covenant era existed up to the cross, and Calvary introduced the new covenant?

The problem with the Pharisees and Sadducees is they stuck to their Tradition above God's Word. But if one's Tradition spiritualizes God's Word, in the long run you make it of no effect.

The reason why the Jewish Scribes and Pharisees rejected Him was that He didn’t meet their hyper-literalist expectation of an earthly ethnic territorial political system. The kingdom He spoke of was spiritual and heavenly. This did not fit in with their carnal expectation. Sadly, Premils still seek after such a faulty expectation in order to justify their flawed future hope. What is more, the natural, physical, earthly ceremonial aspects of the old covenant are obliterated in the New Testament by the new covenant reality. This was presented by the legalistic religious Jewish leaders as evidence of Christ phony credentials.

I believe Premils make the exact same mistake that the Pharisees did with their belief of an earthly political kingdom and a physical material throne of David. Christ is not coming to reign for a thousand yrs over a subjugated bunch of rebels, He is Coming to destroy the wicked.

The reality is, one needs eyes to see in order to grasp the spiritual, heavenly and eternal nature of the kingdom. Jesus told us that. Unfortunately, the hyper-literalist Judaizing Pharisees did not see this with their misguided hyper-literal racist physical carnal earthly kingdom. Premil makes the same mistake. The Pharisaic expectation was completely different from God’s plan. Christ brought a spiritual heavenly kingdom to this earth not a physical natural kingdom as some imagined from their understanding of Old Testament readings.

Premil does not take text, context, and co-text into consideration. They force their hyper-literal pretext into all Scripture. The Pharisees did the same and look how that worked out for them. They misunderstood, misapplied and misinterpreted the First Advent, the kingdom and kingship of Christ.

Premil explains away clear and repeated NT Scripture with their opinion of typical and obscure OT Scripture.
 
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Berean
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Racial apartheid exists within Premil circles, not Amil. Amils consider are part of the same lone unitary family.
Dutch Reformed, So. Africa, Apartheid. Yeah right.
The reason why the Jewish Scribes and Pharisees rejected Him was that He didn’t meet their hyper-literalist expectation of an earthly ethnic territorial political system.
Mark 7:5-8 (KJV) Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
The reality is, one needs eyes to see in order to grasp the spiritual, heavenly and eternal nature of the kingdom. Jesus told us that.
The occult spiritualize the Scriptures, nothing new there.

I'm done, sorry this discussion devolved to this.
 
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DavidPT

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I'm not advocating it is a literal thousand or an undetermined thousand. I'm arguing the grammar doesn't demand it is an undetermined thousand years.

Saying "thousand years" (without an article) in English is awkward and you might get someone asking you what you mean or correcting you. I get your logic I however don't think it translates well to English and you would have to make a more compelling case with biblical examples.

For example are there any unambiguous references where "thousand" absolutely means a literal one thousand in the bible? Can other numbers be referenced the same way like "hundred" over "one hundred". What do translations favour? and are their any cases where translations are more explicit? Translations are translated by Greek scholars and if the overwhelming amount of translations show a specific reading then an argument can be made to support that reading.

I don't know, I haven't checked those things out, but I think it would make a more compelling argument then what you're making, if nothing else it helps to build your case. To me the context is a greater factor into if it's a literal thousand or undetermined so even if translated correctly as "a thousand years" it still might not be literal and I'm not sure we really can answer this with certainty.


1 Samuel 13:2 Saul chose him three thousand men of Israel; whereof two thousand were with Saul in Michmash and in mount Bethel, and a thousand were with Jonathan in Gibeah of Benjamin: and the rest of the people he sent every man to his tent.

What about an example like this?


Saul chose him three thousand men of Israel
whereof two thousand were with Saul in Michmash and in mount Bethel
and a thousand were with Jonathan in Gibeah of Benjamin

How could a thousand be meaning a plural of thousands or even an indeterminable amount in this example?


1 Samuel 25:2 And there was a man in Maon, whose possessions were in Carmel; and the man was very great, and he had three thousand sheep, and a thousand goats: and he was shearing his sheep in Carmel.

and he had three thousand sheep
and a thousand goats

It seems to me that a plural of thousands should mean 2000, 3000, so on and so on. If a plural of thousands were meant, assuming there is such a thing, the passage should have said something like this instead---and the man was very great, and he had a thousand sheep, and a thousand goats

Ezra 1:9 And this is the number of them: thirty chargers of gold, a thousand chargers of silver, nine and twenty knives,

thirty chargers of gold
a thousand chargers of silver
nine and twenty knives

Is this literally meaning thirty chargers of gold? Is this literally meaning nine and twenty knives? Whatever the answers to those are has to apply in the same manner to a thousand chargers of silver.

Isaiah 30:17 One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one; at the rebuke of five shall ye flee: till ye be left as a beacon upon the top of a mountain, and as an ensign on an hill.


Here's an interesting passage I have brought up before. Some argue that if it had said one thousand rather than a thousand in Revelation 20, this would indicate a literal thousand is meant. Here's a verse that does have a one in front of thousand. Does that make this thousand a literal thousand, then?


Ecclesiastes 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

To this day not one single person has lived an entire thousand years. How can this not be meaning a literal thousand years where twice told apparently makes it 2000 years? But if we don't even have a clue as to how much a thousand is, what exactly would it mean to live an indeterminable amount of years twice told? What point would that be making? If a thousand by itself can mean a plural of thousands or whatever, why not simply say---though he live a thousand years, yet hath he seen no good. If that can mean 2000 years, 3000 years, etc, it would cut out the need for adding the part about twice told.

Numbers 35:4 And the suburbs of the cities, which ye shall give unto the Levites, shall reach from the wall of the city and outward a thousand cubits round about.
Numbers 35:5 And ye shall measure from without the city on the east side two thousand cubits, and on the south side two thousand cubits, and on the west side two thousand cubits, and on the north side two thousand cubits; and the city shall be in the midst: this shall be to them the suburbs of the cities.



Since these things involve measuring, how is it possible to accurately measure something if it can't even be determined exactly how much a thousand might mean?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Dutch Reformed, So. Africa, Apartheid. Yeah right.

Mark 7:5-8 (KJV) Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

The occult spiritualize the Scriptures, nothing new there.

I'm done, sorry this discussion devolved to this.

Until you have biblical corroboration, i do not honestly know how you can continue to advance Premil with any credibility. It is a private interpretation that conflicts with multiple Scripture. It is non-corroborative theory. That is why it cannot abide scrutiny and why Premils must avoid or run when challenged.
 
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sovereigngrace

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1 Samuel 13:2 Saul chose him three thousand men of Israel; whereof two thousand were with Saul in Michmash and in mount Bethel, and a thousand were with Jonathan in Gibeah of Benjamin: and the rest of the people he sent every man to his tent.

What about an example like this?


Saul chose him three thousand men of Israel
whereof two thousand were with Saul in Michmash and in mount Bethel
and a thousand were with Jonathan in Gibeah of Benjamin

How could a thousand be meaning a plural of thousands or even an indeterminable amount in this example?


1 Samuel 25:2 And there was a man in Maon, whose possessions were in Carmel; and the man was very great, and he had three thousand sheep, and a thousand goats: and he was shearing his sheep in Carmel.

and he had three thousand sheep
and a thousand goats

It seems to me that a plural of thousands should mean 2000, 3000, so on and so on. If a plural of thousands were meant, assuming there is such a thing, the passage should have said something like this instead---and the man was very great, and he had a thousand sheep, and a thousand goats

Ezra 1:9 And this is the number of them: thirty chargers of gold, a thousand chargers of silver, nine and twenty knives,

thirty chargers of gold
a thousand chargers of silver
nine and twenty knives

Is this literally meaning thirty chargers of gold? Is this literally meaning nine and twenty knives? Whatever the answers to those are has to apply in the same manner to a thousand chargers of silver.

Isaiah 30:17 One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one; at the rebuke of five shall ye flee: till ye be left as a beacon upon the top of a mountain, and as an ensign on an hill.


Here's an interesting passage I have brought up before. Some argue that if it had said one thousand rather than a thousand in Revelation 20, this would indicate a literal thousand is meant. Here's a verse that does have a one in front of thousand. Does that make this thousand a literal thousand, then?


Ecclesiastes 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

To this day not one single person has lived an entire thousand years. How can this not be meaning a literal thousand years where twice told apparently makes it 2000 years? But if we don't even have a clue as to how much a thousand is, what exactly would it mean to live an indeterminable amount of years twice told? What point would that be making? If a thousand by itself can mean a plural of thousands or whatever, why not simply say---though he live a thousand years, yet hath he seen no good. If that can mean 2000 years, 3000 years, etc, it would cut out the need for adding the part about twice told.

Numbers 35:4 And the suburbs of the cities, which ye shall give unto the Levites, shall reach from the wall of the city and outward a thousand cubits round about.
Numbers 35:5 And ye shall measure from without the city on the east side two thousand cubits, and on the south side two thousand cubits, and on the west side two thousand cubits, and on the north side two thousand cubits; and the city shall be in the midst: this shall be to them the suburbs of the cities.



Since these things involve measuring, how is it possible to accurately measure something if it can't even be determined exactly how much a thousand might mean?

I like what John Metcalfe says: “One reads of a thousand hills, a thousand vines, a thousand Philistines, a thousand children of Bigvai, a thousand Ammonites, a thousand spears, a thousand camels, a thousand horses, a thousand chariots, a thousand judges, a thousand bullocks, a thousand rams, but never of a thousand years reign, no, not from Genesis to Malachi.”

And continues, “One can discover a thousand shields for a thousand Israelites, a thousand cubits and a thousand footmen to traverse them, a thousand talents and a thousand oxen to carry them, a thousand silver pieces and a thousand Edomites to covet them, a thousand baths and a thousand men to bathe in them, but what no one can find, no, not one of a thousand, is a thousand years reign at the end of time with the second coming of Christ preceding this millennial invention.”
 
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DavidPT

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Sadly, the only thing you are proving is your own theological bias and your total ignorance of the usage of the phrase "a thousand" in Scripture. Please address the questions below that premillennialists avoid like the plague.

Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one."

This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?


Some of us are not arguing that there is no such thing as a figurative thousand in the Bible. Of course there is. Your post here clearly proves it, in the event one doesn't believe it to be so. Some of us are arguing that there are both literal and figurative examples of a thousand in the Bible. In post #96 I'm arguing that a figurative thousand is likely not meant in those passages I provided, well except for one, that being in Isaiah 30:17.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I didn't have time at my posting, but your free to draw your own conclusion as you apparently have done already...


He shall judge between the nations, (Mt 25) and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.
(Isa 2:4)...obviously future,

Righteousness shall be the belt of his waist, and faithfulness the belt of his loins. The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples—of him shall the nations inquire, and his resting place shall be glorious. In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant that remains of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea. He will raise a signal for the nations and will assemble the banished of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. The jealousy of Ephraim shall depart, and those who harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not be jealous of Judah, and Judah shall not harass Ephraim. But they shall swoop down on the shoulder of the Philistines in the west, and together they shall plunder the people of the east. They shall put out their hand against Edom and Moab, and the Ammonites shall obey them. And the LORD will utterly destroy the tongue of the Sea of Egypt, and will wave his hand over the River with his scorching breath, and strike it into seven channels, and he will lead people across in sandals. And there will be a highway from Assyria for the remnant that remains of his people, as there was for Israel when they came up from the land of Egypt.
(Isa 11:5-16)

And on that day there shall be inscribed on the bells of the horses, “Holy to the LORD.” And the pots in the house of the LORD shall be as the bowls before the altar. And every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holy to the LORD of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and take of them and boil the meat of the sacrifice in them. And there shall no longer be a trader in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day. (Zec 14:20-21)

“I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph. I will bring them back because I have compassion on them, and they shall be as though I had not rejected them, for I am the LORD their God and I will answer them. Then Ephraim shall become like a mighty warrior, and their hearts shall be glad as with wine. Their children shall see it and be glad; their hearts shall rejoice in the LORD. “I will whistle for them and gather them in, for I have redeemed them, and they shall be as many as they were before. Though I scattered them among the nations, yet in far countries they shall remember me, and with their children they shall live and return. I will bring them home from the land of Egypt, and gather them from Assyria, and I will bring them to the land of Gilead and to Lebanon, till there is no room for them. He shall pass through the sea of troubles and strike down the waves of the sea, and all the depths of the Nile shall be dried up. The pride of Assyria shall be laid low, and the scepter of Egypt shall depart. I will make them strong in the LORD, and they shall walk in his name,” declares the LORD. (Zec 10:6-12)

There are many more, but I realize this is most likely an exercise in futility for if one is in the habit of spiritualizing text, then you can make it say pretty much anything you want.

The last days scripturally are intra-Advent, not some alleged future age. When your doctrine requires you to invent 2 lasts days ages and 2 NHNEs then you can literally force the Bible to say whatever you want. This is crazy! The reality is: Isaiah 2 and Micah 4 refer to the here and now.

Isaiah 2:2-4 says, speaking of the Lord’s first Advent, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Micah 4:1-3 parallels this teaching, saying, “in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”

These passages are telling us that Messiah would come and bring peace to His subjects. This would be performed through the Word of God going out of Zion to all nations in these last days. Christ did this. The Gentiles are now coming to the truth of God by their millions. Isaiah receives a pictorial vision of the approaching new covenant order, and the last days. It is given in a metaphorical style describing the incredible peace and reconciliation that comes through the success of the Gospel. The mountain of the Lord refers to the kingdom introduced by Christ. There is no more war there. Mountains in Scripture prophetically speak of kingdoms. That is the case in Isaiah 2 and Malachi 4. The peace described came with the earthly ministry of Christ. It is spiritual. It pertains to the kingdom of God. It also relates to the last days – the days we are living in.

The Old Testament prophecies of “the last days” relate to the period following the Messiah’s first appearance when He introduced the kingdom of God to this earth and opened up the Gospel to the nations. Christ’s earthly ministry ushered in the period of the last days. This is confirmed in several New Testament passages.

Hebrews 1:1-2 declares, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.” The last days commenced with the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ of which this passage provides indisputable proof. Hebrews 9:26 also says, “now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

1 Peter 1:19-20 also confirm that, “Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world … was manifest in these last times for you.”

Paul draws several of the Old Testament prophecies relating to the removing of the global deception upon the Gentiles (ethnos) together in Romans 15:8-12 and shows how this began with the life, death and resurrection of Christ and the subsequent evangelism of the early Church. Significantly, Isaiah 11 is one of them. He declares, Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written (in 1 Samuel 22:50), For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith (in Psalm 18:49), Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. And again (in Deuteronomy 32:43),Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. And again (in Isaiah 11:10), Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.”

Isaiah clearly relates to this current age.

Moreover, Romans 9:27-28 plainly declares, referring to Isaiah 10, Esaias also crieth concerning Israel (in Isaiah 10:20-22), Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

Why do you deny the current fulfillment of at least part of Isaiah 11? What is your issue? Again, who are the true literalists? Amils!

Parts of Isaiah 11 definitely refer to the new covenant period (as can be seen through Paul’s allusion to this chapter in Romans 9:27-28 and 15:8-12), the others parts that are under dispute refer to the “new heavens and new earth.”
 
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