THE SABBATH TRUTH!

LoveGodsWord · Jun 17, 2020

pescador said:
It's really too bad that you didn't keep reading what Paul wrote to the church at Rome. Romans 8:1-4 says, " There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

That plainly says that Christians are no longer under the Old Testament Law; our lives in Christ Jesus are governed by the Holy Spirit.

Hopefully this will save you a lot of typing, trying to prove something contrary to what Scripture clearly says.

Not really dear friend your misreading the scriptures. The law of sin and death in ROMANS 8 is not the 10 commandments it is the sinful carnal mind or the flesh that sins.

See the context here...

ROMANS 7:5 [5], For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit to death.

ROMANS 7:23-24 [23], BUT I SEE ANOTHER LAW IN MY MEMBERS, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity TO THE LAW THAT IS IN MY MEMBERS [24], O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the BODY OF THIS DEATH?

Too bad you did not pay attention to what you quoted which only supports what is being shared here...

ROMANS 8:1-4 [1], THERE IS THEREFORE NOW NO CONDEMNATION TO THEM WHICH ARE IN CHRIST JESUS, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT. [2], FOR THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE HAS MADE ME FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH. [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.

links to...

ROMANS 8:12-14 [12], Therefore, brothers, WE ARE DEBTORS, NOT TO THE FLESH, TO LIVE AFTER THE FLESH.[13], FOR IF YOU LIVE AFTER THE FLESH, YOU SHALL DIE: but IF YOU THROUGH THE SPIRIT DO MORTIFY THE DEEDS OF THE BODY, YOU SHALL LIVE.[14], FOR AS MANY AS ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD, THEY ARE THE SONS OF GOD.

GALATIANS 5:16[16], THIS I SAY THEN, WALK IN THE SPIRIT, AND YOU SHALL NOT FULFILL THE LUST OF THE FLESH.

Please also read ROMANS 6:1-23

Now what is it in the scriptures provided here that you disagree with?

Hope this helps.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 17, 2020

klutedavid said:
Your shifting position in your understanding of the letter to the Romans, from one post to another post.

Here I will demonstrate from two posts submitted earlier by you.

Post #431

Post #452

I am confused here, as I don't know what you are saying from post to post.

I will ask again, who was Paul talking to in the letter to the Romans in the verse below?

Romans 2:23-24
You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.

The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of YOU (the Jews)!

Not at all dear David. Only showing that the bible is for all both JEWS and Gentiles and everyone who professes JESUS. There are no more JEWS and Gentiles. It is a strawman and a distraction as all believers are one in Christ.

HARK! · Jun 17, 2020

Cribstyl said:
Ok, I'll gladly look at it with you, hoping communicative respects are in order.
We cant claim to be brothers in Christ by fighting every time we dialog.
When you disagree with me, please reference what I said.
A Moderator made it clear to me that calling someone's beliefs nonsense is flaming.
Better to say Oh WOW or find something creative to say.

Thanks Brother Cribstyl,

I greatly appreciate your taking the initiative to propose a fresh start.

(CLV) Mt 5:9
"Happy are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

I'll be sure to make an extra effort to be courteous in my posts towards your comments.

Cribstyl said:
I believe Paul knows and means, the law begins with "Hear Oh Israel...." So those under the law are the ones who were given the law. Paul had already explained in
Rom 2:12¶For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

I'll show you exactly what Paul said in this exact context again.

(CLV) Ro 3:19
Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,

Cribstyl said:
The text says "every mouth will be (barred) shut" Why? Israel is an example for the world. The world should know that the God of Israel will judge the entire world of sin, just as He as rained judgement on them through the centuries.
The world cant say anything but be in shock and awe because God has been righteous in dealing with Israel about His word and their unrighteousness. (referencing Rom 3:19 content)

3:19 doesn't mention Israel.

I'll highlight it another way to bring more clarity.

(CLV) Ro 3:19
Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,

Cribstyl said:
True, Paul is teaching us that the whole world will be judged of sin by God. I suspect that you're pivoting to say the world will be judged "by the law" for sin, but that is not what Paul is saying here. Paul is not contradicting having just penned, who will be judged by the law.
Rom 2:12¶For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
So Paul already established who will be judged by the law, but all will be judged of sin.

You just said that the world will be judged of sin. Sin is transgression of the law. Therefore the whole world will be judged for transgression of the law.

Q:

How do we judge transgression of the law?

A:

By the law.

What 2:12 is saying is that if one has absolutely no regard for the law, or without law; they're going to die. For those who are in the law, or respect the law, will be judged for their missteps. I'd rather be judged than dead.

The very next verse brings this message home:

13 For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified."

Cribstyl said:
Oh boy, I have 2 disagreement with you here. Verses Rom 3:10-18 , these are all OT quotes from Psa 14:1-3; Psa 53:1-3
about the whole world not just those under the law.
Rom 3:10¶As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Secondly, it's not talking about "shaking in your boots" fear of God.
It's talking about the 'fear' (being mindful) of God is the beginning of wisdom type fear.
Sheeze, now you're going further off-content to reinforce your teachings, not Paul's.

Firstly, those who are reborn in Yahshua don't continue in sin. Did you read those verse? He's calling them bloodthirsty snakes. Is that how we describe those who are in Yahshua?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.

Secondly, he doesn't qualify what kind of fear that is. It's a different kind of fear for each person, whatever it takes for that individual to come to obedience.

Cribstyl said:
I disagree with this pivot from what Paul is teaching relating to Rom 3:19, so rather than blast you, I will say no comment.

(CLV) Ex 20:20
Then Moses said to the people: Do not fear, for in order to probe you the One, Elohim has come, and in order that the fear of Him should come over your faces, that you may not sin.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

If you can't refute it civilly; then why bring it up?

pescador · Jun 18, 2020

klutedavid said:
Your shifting position in your understanding of the letter to the Romans, from one post to another post.

Here I will demonstrate from two posts submitted earlier by you.

Post #431

Post #452

I am confused here, as I don't know what you are saying from post to post.

I will ask again, who was Paul talking to in the letter to the Romans in the verse below?

Romans 2:23-24
You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.

The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of YOU (the Jews)!

You are entirely correct. LoveGodsWord is all over the place with her/his interpretation of Romans. It's sad when somebody has a predetermined result in their minds then finds out-of-context Scripture to prove her/his point.

pescador · Jun 18, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Not really dear friend your misreading the scriptures. The law of sin and death is not the 10 commandments it is the sinful carnal mind or the flesh that sins...

ROMANS 7:5 [5], For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit to death.

ROMANS 7:23-24 [23], But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.[24], O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Too bad you did not pay attention to what you quoted which only supports what is being shared here...

ROMANS 8:1-4 [1], THERE IS THEREFORE NOW NO CONDEMNATION TO THEM WHICH ARE IN CHRIST JESUS, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT. [2], FOR THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE HAS MADE ME FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH. [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.

links to...

ROMANS 8:12-14 [12], Therefore, brothers, WE ARE DEBTORS, NOT TO THE FLESH, TO LIVE AFTER THE FLESH.[13], FOR IF YOU LIVE AFTER THE FLESH, YOU SHALL DIE: but IF YOU THROUGH THE SPIRIT DO MORTIFY THE DEEDS OF THE BODY, YOU SHALL LIVE.[14], FOR AS MANY AS ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD, THEY ARE THE SONS OF GOD.

GALATIANS 5:16[16], THIS I SAY THEN, WALK IN THE SPIRIT, AND YOU SHALL NOT FULFILL THE LUST OF THE FLESH.

Please also read ROMANS 6:1-23

Now what is it in the scriptures provided here that you disagree with?

Hope this helps.

When somebody jumps all over the place in Scripture it is obvious that they're trying to prove a predetermined point. You want me to read Romans 7:5, Romans 7:23-24, Romans 8:1-4, Romans 8:12-14, Galatians 5:16, and Romans 6:1-23? (in that order?) What happens to the rest of Romans (in context) and the rest of Galatians?

I suggest that you take some time to read Romans (and perhaps Galatians) as it was written: a complete letter and discover what Paul actually wrote.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 18, 2020

pescador said:
When somebody jumps all over the place in Scripture it is obvious that they're trying to prove a predetermined point. You want me to read Romans 7:5, Romans 7:23-24, Romans 8:1-4, Romans 8:12-14, Galatians 5:16, and Romans 6:1-23? (in that order?) What happens to the rest of Romans (in context) and the rest of Galatians?

I suggest that you take some time to read Romans (and perhaps Galatians) as it was written: a complete letter and discover what Paul actually wrote.

Not really dear friend. The texts provided are context related to subject matter that disproves your interpretation of ROMANS 8:2 being that God's 10 commandments are abolished and showing that the law of sin and death is in relation to the sinful human nature opposed to God and his law (letter of the law). They were provided because you left them out in your interpretation of ROMANS 8:2. The scriptures provided prove context showing that it is obedience to God's law that leads to righteousness is only achieved by those who walk in God's Spirit and have been born again and been given a new heart to love.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 18, 2020

pescador said:
You are entirely correct. LoveGodsWord is all over the place with her/his interpretation of Romans. It's sad when somebody has a predetermined result in their minds then finds out-of-context Scripture to prove her/his point.

What is it in my posts that you claim is taken out of context? You seem upset because you have been provided cotnext to your claims in relation to ROMANS 8:2 and it disagrees with you. I will let God's Word talk for me. Our opinions do not matter here either dear friend. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them.

Cribstyl · Jun 18, 2020

HARK! said:
Thanks Brother Cribstyl,

I greatly appreciate your taking the initiative to propose a fresh start.

(CLV) Mt 5:9
"Happy are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

I'll be sure to make an extra effort to be courteous in my posts towards your comments.

Ok Great, let's get to it.

I'll show you exactly what Paul said in this exact context again.

(CLV) Ro 3:19
Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,

3:19 doesn't mention Israel.

We both need to identify WHO IS UNDER THE LAW, in this context. True or false?

In Rom chapter 3 the Jews are Israel. They were given the law. SO ISRAEL IS UNDER THE LAW.
Proving this context identify Jews as under the law.

Rom 3:1
What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Jews are Israel they were given CIRCUMCISION, Paul say in Gal 5:3 that CIRCUMCISION MEANS YOU MUST KEEP THE LAW.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Rom 3:2
Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
BOTH THE 10 COMMANDMENTS ON STONE TABLETS AND THE ARK OF THE COVENANT ARE ORACLES. (Act 7:38)
It's actually a no-brainer that Paul is referencing the Jews, as those who are under the law in Rom 3:19.

I'll highlight it another way to bring more clarity.

(CLV) Ro 3:19
Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,

That's kinda funny. Your highlighted words are trying to say, the text is saying, the entire world is under the law and not the Jews. And that, everyone will be judged by the law. That would contradict what Paul establishes as Christian doctrine in Rm 3:20 and 21. That judgement will not be by the law.

You just said that the world will be judged of sin.

That's what Rom 3:9 says... all under sin, not all under law.
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Sin is transgression of the law. Therefore the whole world will be judged for transgression of the law.

Hark, Not so fast, Where does it say that the whole world will be judged by the law in Rom 3? You should consider that Paul has already confirmed in this letter includes these 3 things. 1) That Jews were given advantage with the oracles of God.(10.com on stone) 2)Also with circumcision and the law, 3) Jews are under the law, they will be judged by the law.
Hark your reason for snatching the mic from Paul and giving it to John for 1 isolated verse is obvious. You appear trying to negate true doctrine by ignoring the facts this context. Rom 3:19 is our principle scripture and Rom 3:20 and 21 plainly says clearly:
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Justification is the judicial process whereby God declares someone as righteous. true or false?
So, Paul is saying justification will not be by the law because the law only gives knowledge sin committed.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Paul is saying; From NOW on, God's standard of righteousness will not be by the law, and even the law and the prophets bared witness to that.

So, that's why rip the mic away from Paul who is teaching of correct Christian doctrine to your own reasoning, with Q&A that directly contradicts Paul.

Q:

How do we judge transgression of the law?

A:

By the law.

What 2:12 is saying is that if one has absolutely no regard for the law, or without law; they're going to die. For those who are in the law, or respect the law; they will be judged for their missteps. I'd rather be judged than dead.

The very next verse brings this message home:

13 For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified."

Firstly, those who are reborn in Yahshua don't continue in sin. Did you read those verse? He's calling them bloodthirsty snakes. Is that how we describe those who are in Yahshua?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.

Secondly, he doesn't qualify what kind of fear that is. It's a different kind of fear for each person, whatever it takes for that individual to come to obedience.

(CLV) Ex 20:20
Then Moses said to the people: Do not fear, for in order to probe you the One, Elohim has come, and in order that the fear of Him should come over your faces, that you may not sin.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

If you can't refute it civilly; then why bring it up?

What did I say that was not civil in that post? I brought up sin because Hebrew 3:9 said "all have sinned." You're claiming that bringing up sin means bringing up law breaking. Not true. You have a premise that; "sin is transgression of the law. NOT ME. My explanation of 1John 3:4 is different than yours. I don't agree that you can inject this premise on Paul, so that you can contradict Paul's authority and doctrine. As we walk through Rom 3, you pull the brakes on Paul right before he says in Rom 3:20-21 That God's judgement and righteousness will not be by the law.

pescador · Jun 18, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Not really dear friend. The texts provided are context related to subject matter the disprove your interpretation of ROMANS 8:2 being that God's 10 commandments are abolished and showing that the law of sin and death is in relation to the sinful human nature opposed to God and his law (letter of the law). They were provided because you left them out in your interpretation of ROMANS 8:2. The scriptures provided prove context showing that obedience to God's law that leads to righteousness is only achieved by those who walk in God's Spirit.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed.

Your post is somewhat difficult to understand.

Romans 8:2 says, "For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death." In context -- the only way to write Bible verses -- Romans 8,1-4 says "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

It says nothing about the ten commandments; that's your mistaken interpretation. Paul wrote about the difference between the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus and the law of sin and death, and how God achieved His purpose. By Christ's sacrifice He condemned "sin in the flesh" and achieved what the OT law couldn't: believers are made righteous.

There is NOTHING about "obedience to God's law that leads to righteousness is only achieved by those who walk in God's Spirit." Righteousness is imputed to those who accept that their sin is paid for by Christ's blood. Period. Nothing more and nothing less.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 18, 2020

pescador said:
Your post is somewhat difficult to understand. Romans 8:2 says, "For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death." In context -- the only way to write Bible verses -- Romans 8,1-4 says "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

It says nothing about the ten commandments; that's your mistaken interpretation. Paul wrote about the difference between the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus and the law of sin and death, and how God achieved His purpose. By Christ's sacrifice He condemned "sin in the flesh" and achieved what the OT law couldn't: believers are made righteous.

I think perhaps your having problems here because your trying to read ROMANS 8:2 in isolation to the rest of the chapter context provided by the surrounding scripture and in isolation from ROMANS 6 and ROMANS 7 as shown in the last few posts to you and your friends. The bible does not teach that God's 10 commandments are abolished. They are the standard of right and wrong; good and evil; sin and righteousness in the new covenant *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4 and if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11.

ROMANS 8:1-4 [1], THERE IS THEREFORE NOW NO CONDEMNATION TO THEM WHICH ARE IN CHRIST JESUS, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT. [2], FOR THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE HAS MADE ME FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH. [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.

links to...

ROMANS 8:12-14 [12], Therefore, brothers, WE ARE DEBTORS, NOT TO THE FLESH, TO LIVE AFTER THE FLESH.[13], FOR IF YOU LIVE AFTER THE FLESH, YOU SHALL DIE: but IF YOU THROUGH THE SPIRIT DO MORTIFY THE DEEDS OF THE BODY, YOU SHALL LIVE.[14], FOR AS MANY AS ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD, THEY ARE THE SONS OF GOD.

GALATIANS 5:16[16], THIS I SAY THEN, WALK IN THE SPIRIT, AND YOU SHALL NOT FULFILL THE LUST OF THE FLESH.

Please also read ROMANS 6:1-23

pescador said:
There is NOTHING about "obedience to God's law that leads to righteousness is only achieved by those who walk in God's Spirit." Righteousness is imputed to those who accept that their sin is paid for by Christ's blood. Period. Nothing more and nothing less.

God's Law (10 commandments) does not make us righteouss. It only gives us the knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7. We are saved by Gods' grace through faith in God's Word *EPEHSIANS 2:8-9. This is God's work in all those who believe and walk in His Spirit *PHILIPPIANS 2:13; ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16. It is our faith in God's Word that leads us to walk in God's Spirit to obedeince to God's Word and it is obedience to God's Word that leads to righteousness...

ROMANS 6:12-16 [12], LET NOT SIN THEREFORE REIGN IN YOUR MORTAL BODY, THAT YOU SHOULD OBEY IT IN THE LUSTS THEREOF. [13], neither yield you your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin: but yield yourselves to god, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to god. [14], FOR SIN SHALL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU: FOR YOU ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW, BUT UNDER GRACE. [15], What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. [16], KNOW YOU NOT, THAT TO WHOM YOU YIELD YOURSELVES SERVANTS TO OBEY, HIS SERVANTS YOU ARE TO WHOM YOU OBEY; WHETHER OF SIN TO DEATH, OR OF OBEDIENCE TO RIGHTEOUSNESS?

Read Romans 6.

God's GRACE is for OBEDIENCE to the faith not disobedience *ROMANS 1:5; ROMANS 3:32. JESUS saves is from sin not to continue in sin *JOHN 8:31-36. If we continue in sin we will die *ROMANS 6:23; ROMANS 8:13. This is why we need to be born again *JOHN 3:3-7. Those who are born again of God's Spirit do not practice sin *1 JOHN 3:6-9. This is God's new covenant promise to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12 and it is love that estblishes God's law in the heart of those who believe Gods' Word *ROMANS 13:8-10. Sin on the otherhand is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:9-10; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; REVELATION 12:17; REVELATION 14:12; REVELATION 22:14. Sin will keep all those who knowingly practice it out of God's kingdom because those doing so reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing dispite to the Spirit of grace *HEBREWS 10:26-31; ROMANS 6:23.

God's people are in every church *JOHN 10:16; The hour is come and not is that the true worshippers will worship God in Spirit and in truth as God is a Spirit and those who worship him must worship him in Spirit and in truth *JOHN 4:23-24. God is calling us to come out from following the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God *MATTHEW 15:3-9 back to the pure Word of God *REVELATION 17:1-5; REVELATION 18:1-8. BABYLON has fallen, it is time to come out.

God's Sheep hear his Voice (the Word) and follow him *JOHN 10:26-27.

Hope this helps.

pescador · Jun 18, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
I think perhaps your having problems here because your trying to read ROMANS 8:2 in isolation to the rest of the chapter context provided by the surrounding scripture and in isolation from ROMANS 6 and ROMANS 7 as shown in the last few posts to you and your friends. The bible does not teach that God's 10 commandments are abolished. They are the standard of right and wrong; good and evil; sin and righteousness in the new covenant *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4 and if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11.

ROMANS 8:1-4 [1], THERE IS THEREFORE NOW NO CONDEMNATION TO THEM WHICH ARE IN CHRIST JESUS, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT. [2], FOR THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE HAS MADE ME FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH. [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.

links to...

ROMANS 8:12-14 [12], Therefore, brothers, WE ARE DEBTORS, NOT TO THE FLESH, TO LIVE AFTER THE FLESH.[13], FOR IF YOU LIVE AFTER THE FLESH, YOU SHALL DIE: but IF YOU THROUGH THE SPIRIT DO MORTIFY THE DEEDS OF THE BODY, YOU SHALL LIVE.[14], FOR AS MANY AS ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD, THEY ARE THE SONS OF GOD.

GALATIANS 5:16[16], THIS I SAY THEN, WALK IN THE SPIRIT, AND YOU SHALL NOT FULFILL THE LUST OF THE FLESH.

Please also read ROMANS 6:1-23

God's Law (10 commandments) does not make us righteouss. It only gives us the knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7. We are saved by Gods' grace through faith in God's Word *EPEHSIANS 2:8-9. This is God's work in all those who believe and walk in His Spirit *PHILIPPIANS 2:13; ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16. It is our faith in God's Word that leads us to walk in God's Spirit to obedeince to God's Word and it is obedience to God's Word that leads to righteousness...

ROMANS 6:12-16 [12], LET NOT SIN THEREFORE REIGN IN YOUR MORTAL BODY, THAT YOU SHOULD OBEY IT IN THE LUSTS THEREOF. [13], neither yield you your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin: but yield yourselves to god, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to god. [14], FOR SIN SHALL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU: FOR YOU ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW, BUT UNDER GRACE. [15], What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. [16], KNOW YOU NOT, THAT TO WHOM YOU YIELD YOURSELVES SERVANTS TO OBEY, HIS SERVANTS YOU ARE TO WHOM YOU OBEY; WHETHER OF SIN TO DEATH, OR OF OBEDIENCE TO RIGHTEOUSNESS?

Read Romans 6.

God's GRACE is for OBEDIENCE to the faith not disobedience *ROMANS 1:5; ROMANS 3:32. JESUS saves is from sin not to continue in sin *JOHN 8:31-36. If we continue in sin we will die *ROMANS 6:23; ROMANS 8:13

Hope this helps.

It may help you to selectively quote Scripture to justify your attitude but you're not making any sense. I would suggest spending time trying to understand what God has freely given all of us who believe. If you want to put yourself under the law and disregard the freedom that we have in Christ, I feel sorry for you.

We are righteous because of God's grace and our sins are of no account because they have been paid for by Christ's sacrifice. Period.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 18, 2020

pescador said:
It may help you to selectively quote Scripture to justify your attitude but you're not making any sense. I would suggest spending time trying to understand what God has freely given all of us who believe. If you want to put yourself under the law and disregard the freedom that we have in Christ, I feel sorry for you.

We are righteous because of God's grace and our sins are of no account because they have been paid for by Christ's sacrifice. Period.

It is written as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. No one can understand God's Word if they close their eyes and ears to hearing what God says through His Spirit. We need to come to JESUS as little children prayerfully asking him to be our guide and teacher according to the scriptures. If we do not do this we will not hear His voice. God's sheep hear His voice and follow him. Those who put their trust in men over God do not hear and follow his Word because they are not his sheep. The wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.

pescador · Jun 18, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
It is written as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. No one can understand God's Word if they close their eyes and ears to hearing God's Word through His Spirit. We need to come to JESUS as little children prayerfully asking him to be our guide and teacher according to the scriptures. If we do not do this we will not hear His voice. God's sheep hear His voice and follow him. Those who do not hear and follow are not his sheep. The wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.

You're basically correct. However, when you say, "We need to come to JESUS as little children prayerfully asking him to be our guide and teacher according to the scriptures. If we do not do this we will not hear His voice" there is no scriptural basis for that. a) God is not limited concerning how He communicates with people. b) Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit who will guide us into all truth. c) We are expected to mature as Christians so that we can continue to grow in our faith, not relying on spiritual milk which is for new believers.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 18, 2020

pescador said:
You're basically correct. However, when you say, "We need to come to JESUS as little children prayerfully asking him to be our guide and teacher according to the scriptures.

Yes it was only scripture that was provided. I simply did not provide the references as it was God's Word not mine.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ It is written as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. No one can understand God's Word if they close their eyes and ears to hearing God's Word through His Spirit. We need to come to JESUS as little children prayerfully asking him to be our guide and teacher according to the scriptures. If we do not do this we will not hear His voice. God's sheep hear His voice and follow him. Those who do not hear and follow are not his sheep. The wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.

Your response..

pescador said:
If we do not do this we will not hear His voice" there is no scriptural basis for that.

Not really dear friend. Try reading JOHN 10:26-27; JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:13; JOHN 7:17; 1 JOHN 2:27; HEBREWS 8:11; JEREMIAH 17:5; MATTHEW 15:3-9

pescador said:
a) God is not limited concerning how He communicates with people. b) Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit who will guide us into all truth.

God's Spirit works through the Word of God not outside of the Word of God as we believe and follow what God's Word says because God's Spirit is the Spirit of the Word of God *JOHN 17:17. No one is guided into God's truth when rejecting Gods' Word which is truth *JOHN 6:63

pescador said:
c) We are expected to mature as Christians so that we can continue to grow in our faith, not relying on spiritual milk which is for new believers.

Faith means to have faith in what God says not the teachings and traditions of men that lead us away from God and his Word. We ought to believe and obey God rather than men *ACTS OF THE APOSTLES 5:29-32; ROMANS 3:4 who wants to be our guide and teacher as we seek him through his Word *JEREMIAH 29:13; JOHN 14:26; 1 JOHN 2:27.

Hope this helps

klutedavid · Jun 18, 2020

Andre_b said:
We already discussed this in previous posts in the past Bob. 2 Corinthians is talking about the MINISTRATION of the law, not the Ten Commandments itself. No where in the Ten Commandments does it give penalties or what to do for breaking those rules. The ministration is the sacrificial system, temple services, etc, etc...

It's telling you CLEARLY here that it this MINISTRY:
"If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!" 2Cor 3:9

History and Etymology for minister
Noun

Middle English ministre "servant, ecclesiastic, priest, official serving a superior, agent," borrowed from Anglo-French & Medieval Latin; Anglo-French, borrowed from Medieval Latin minister "servant, ecclesiastic (short for Deī minister "servant of god"), agent, official," going back to Latin, "servant, priest's attendant, agent," formed from minor-, minus "less, lesser" (with the suffix of location and opposition -ter) after magister"manager, MASTER entry 1" — more at MINUS entry 1

Proof that the commandments are still important and part of the NEW COVENANT. This shows how you do not understand what ministration means in 2 Cor 3:9

New Covenant confirmed at the cross
Luke 22:20 "Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you."

According to the Commandment which was done after the New Covenant was confirmed.
Luke 23:56 "And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment."

Psalm 119:
44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.
45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.
46 I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed.
47 And I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved.
48 My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes.

Psalm 119 shows David loving the commandments and that he will walk at LIBERTY!

This obviously proves that the ministration change of 2 Corinthians 3 is Moses to Jesus NOT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS. You cannot minister without a law. Moses shone with Glory and it's also what it's talking about because the glory of God reflected in his face but it faded, just like his ministry.

Hope this helps and that the Word of God will bless you. It is for our good and to walk at LIBERTY like David says.

You are not accurate with your definition in this post.

There is a difference between 'ministry' and 'minister'. You gave a definition of the word, 'minister', rather than the word, 'ministry'.

The minister of the law is Moses of course, but the ministry that Moses managed was the law.

A seemingly slight difference but an important difference in what the verse is describing.

king David delighted in God's law but King David was a serious law breaker.

According to the Commandment which was done after the New Covenant was confirmed.
Luke 23:56 "And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment."

If you claim that every single law, every commandment, every statute, that the apostles. Or any other Jew obeys; must be obeyed by us in the new covenant. Then your going to run into some very serious problems. In trying to follow the laws that the apostles had to follow, because they lived in Israel.

Cribstyl · Jun 18, 2020

pescador said:
Your post is somewhat difficult to understand.

Romans 8:2 says, "For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death." In context -- the only way to write Bible verses -- Romans 8,1-4 says "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

It says nothing about the ten commandments; that's your mistaken interpretation. Paul wrote about the difference between the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus and the law of sin and death, and how God achieved His purpose. By Christ's sacrifice He condemned "sin in the flesh" and achieved what the OT law couldn't: believers are made righteous.

There is NOTHING about "obedience to God's law that leads to righteousness is only achieved by those who walk in God's Spirit." Righteousness is imputed to those who accept that their sin is paid for by Christ's blood. Period. Nothing more and nothing less.

Bravo Pescador, you're spot on. If the ten commandments is a list of sins that results in death, why cant they produce commandments from their socalled law of sin and death that's not in the ten?

LoveGodsWord · Jun 18, 2020

Cribstyl said:
Bravo Pescador, you're spot on. If the ten commandments is a list of sins that results in death, why cant they produce commandments from their socalled law of sin and death that's not in the ten?

Depends if one believes in scripture context as a rule for scripture interpretation as I do and have been trying to share with you or you believe in cherry picking scripture taken out of context to support what one believes I guess. I believe context has been provided now so all are free to believe as they wish as we all answer only to God come judgement day. I only wish all well and only point all to God and his Word because it is only here we find love and truth.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 18, 2020

[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]
Indeed. Like the others shared with you it is the truth. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. God's Words are not mine but Gods and it is His Word that I share with you. JESUS says those who knowingly follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it *ACTS OF THE APOSTLES 5:29-31; ROMANS 3:4.

klutedavid · Jun 18, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Indeed. Like the others shared with you it is the truth. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. JESUS says those who knowingly follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it *ACTS OF THE APOSTLES 5:29-31; ROMANS 3:4.

At times you sound like a Catholic.

Andre_b · Jun 18, 2020

klutedavid said:
You are not accurate with your definition in this post.

There is a difference between 'ministry' and 'minister'. You gave a definition of the word, 'minister', rather than the word, 'ministry'.

The minister of the law is Moses of course, but the ministry that Moses managed was the law.

A seemingly slight difference but an important difference in what the verse is describing.

king David delighted in God's law but King David was a serious law breaker.If you claim that every single law, every commandment, every statute, that the apostles. Or any other Jew obeys; must be obeyed by us in the new covenant. Then your going to run into some very serious problems. In trying to follow the laws that the apostles had to follow, because they lived in Israel.

So if there's a difference between the words why didn't you give the definition? Really...

They are basically the same thing :
Definition of ministry

1: MINISTRATIONthe ingenuity of destruction … had outrun the ministry of healing— Dixon Wecter
2: the office, duties, or functions of a minister was well prepared for the ministry
3: the body of ministers of religion : CLERGY joined the Presbyterian ministry
4: a person or thing through which something is accomplished

Even if he did manage the law, it's HOW IT WAS MANAGED THE DUTIES AND FUNCTIONS THAT CHANGED NOT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS. That's what a ministry is, the laws of the sacrificial system, temple, etc. There's no ministry of the Ten Commandments itself, it only tells you what is sin straight up, there's no rules on the tablets themselves about what happens when those are not followed, it's ministration of when those laws are broken, then what to do. Jesus came to clarify the Ten Commandments and replace the ministry of Moses. Ministers of those days were twisting and changed the commandments and the ministration of them (traditions and commandments of men). Why would he come clarify the Ten and then abolished them? How odd of a belief. Certainly when he said he would not abolish.

As for David, yes he was a major sinner, just like all of us, he never denied it that's the key, after mistakes you own up and face some consequences like David did, however he repented and loved the commandments in the end, that's the difference. Change of heart and mind to the will of God. The Pharisees did not just like many others. Big difference, just like people today.

I never claimed we have to obey every law, commandment and statute. You are implying something i never claimed you go from having to keep no commandments to having to do them and include the ministration and everything else, which the New Testament says the ministration/high priest changed. You go from one extreme to the other. Jesus explains the changes of the ministry, etc. Never do they teach the Law of God changes.

You claim that the apostles followed all the laws of Israel at the time, then why were they often jailed and persecuted? Where does the bible say that they kept all the laws of the Jews/scribes/Pharisees? Those are commandments and traditions of men not found in the bible.

Not only that Jesus said to the discussion with the Pharisees that people were keeping their manmade traditions over God's commandments. That's why Israel and it's ministration was in complete apostasy. Which they didn't not want to repent.
Matthew 15:9 "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
Mark 7:8 "For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do."

So if that's true. Then Luke 23:56 would have been clear that they were resting according to the laws of the Jews, or according to the commandments of men. Or according to the Old commandment, or according to the Old Covenant... No HE SAID CLEARLY ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT. Meaning it's still to be obeyed...

Many want to avoid this direct teaching CLEARLY AFTER the new covenant was confirmed. But if people are turthful they cannot avoid it. That's why people today teach for doctrines the commandments of men still and make up all kinds of excuses of direct scriptures like Luke 23:56 and clearly Mark 2:27 "Sabbath was made for MAN" Greek word for man in Mark 2:27 anthrópos

Strong's
anthrópos: a man, human, mankind

444 ánthrōpos – man, also the generic term for "mankind"; the human race; people, including women and men.

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