[MOVED] Women Submitting To Their Husbands: What Christians Get Wrong

OldWiseGuy · Jun 18, 2020

Peter J Barban said:
No, we don't screen anything for our adult daughter, though my wife was the screen when the daughter was younger. It's just that she's so attractive, smart, creative, and driven to succeed that she finds most men unworthy of her allegiance. My only goals for her marriage are to find a godly Christian man who speaks English.

Regarding why men today are struggling, aside from the Bible, I rely on the advice of Jordan Peterson (clean up your room) and Simon Sinek (leaders eat last). Men today neither know how to be leaders nor want to pay the price to become one.

Some of us don't want the hassle of leadership ('herding cats') and prefer to work alone.

OldWiseGuy · Jun 18, 2020

dqhall said:
Searchable profiles dating site. If the search goes as far as message exchanges, then it might result in phone calls, then meeting someone.

I learned more from messaging, phone calls and meeting women in restaurants, coffee shops, a mall food court, my dining room etc, than searching profiles. One day I realized I will probably never marry and am not into fornication. At age 60 I am not actively dating. I joined 14 Facebook groups and did not feel totally alone.

Some years ago I perused some dating sites. I never met the qualifications and standards that any woman required.

dqhall · Jun 18, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
Some years ago I perused some dating sites. I never met the qualifications and standards that any woman required.

Probably some of the women there were imperfect and unable to meet your qualifications and requirements.

A Jewish lady contacted me through online dating. I called her. Her father had been a stock broker before passing away. She gave me a stock tip. I did not believe her. Years later I hate myself for my unbelief. Another guy invited her to a concert. She went with him.

I met a widow in her 50’s who was into health food. We dated about two months. She recommended a nutrition book by Dr. Michael Greger. I read it. We did not reach a relationship agreement. It was a pleasure to have met her. I am healthier today than if I stayed home and not gone to meet her.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jun 18, 2020

timewerx said:
Scriptures are inspired.

BUT many interpretations are not.

Paul and Peter are in agreement in the subject of marital arrangements. But still needs to be seen under the cultural context.

Most Christian religions doesn't care much about looking deeper into the subject.

Why only few ever gets to the truth is the lack of care about it. Quick to believe isn't the way of the wise - Proverbs 14:15

Don't let fear, embarrassment, shame, even the fear of hell get between you and the truth.

The correct interpretation of wives being silent is to reinforce Christ’s silence before the unbelievers = sanhedrin. Paul stayed with Peter for weeks so he understood a lot of what was Jesus’ direct teaching. That was one of them.

“Christ left an example, that you should follow in his steps. ‘He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.’ When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly…now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls”, 1 Peter 2:21-25

“In like manner…”

Paul used the Greek word “hupotasso” for what is rendered “subject or submit” and is a Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". OR

In non-military use,it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden". Hupotasso Meaning in Bible - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

Using the military definition of the word “The wife stands behind her husband in all things when her husband stands behind Christ”.

In the non-military meaning, “a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden.”

In relationship to family “A wife cooperates and assumes responsibility with her husband to carry their burden with Christ.” Ephesians 5:22-24

“Husbands, dwell with your spouse according to the gospel knowledge. This knowledge that you have, I want you to honour the wife, because you will be heirs together in the grace of life.” 1 Peter 3:7

After singling out slaves and exhorting them to be submissive to their masters and patiently endure unjust punishment Peter then moved on to Christian wives who had unsaved husbands. Wives that were seeking to win husbands to the Lord Jesus.

They were going about it the wrong way and Peter corrected them in that. Those husbands were not people who would listen to reason about the gospel so the best sermon was preached by example.

Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behaviour of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 1 Peter 3:1-2

The pious living being promoted didn't depend on outer adornment to effect the change like they did before they were saved. They were instructed not to appeal to their husband's depraved nature to try to convert them to Christ. 1 Peter 3:3-4

Kosmos - adornment - is the opposite of chaos. Her adornment was to be in keeping with her Christian status. Knowing oneself in one's new nature, the character that proceeds from the heart. So in keeping with her Christian status the way was to confront the husband not with the world but with the Saviour so as not to feed his sin nature but rather appeal to the unbeliever’s conscience from the inner spiritual being. Romans 12:2

No one can serve 2 masters. The term lord referred to near relatives, father, mother etc while John uses the same Greek word to refer to the 'elect lady' in his epistle. "As long as the believing wives are doing good, they need not be afraid with any sudden terror of the account which their unbelieving husbands may exact from them" 1 Peter 3:6-7

So whenever you are feel unloved, unimportant or insecure, remember the following words and to Whom you belong:

“So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone.

In him the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built together spiritually into a dwelling place for God.”

Ephesians 2:19-22

OldWiseGuy · Jun 18, 2020

dqhall said:
Probably some of the women there were imperfect and unable to meet your qualifications and requirements.

My only requirement was not to have so many requirements (like having at least one suit).

Swag365 · Jun 18, 2020

Peter J Barban said:
Just to clarify: I do not sacrifice for my wife because she is worthy. No, I sacrifice for her because it pleases Christ and He is worthy. My sacrificial love for my wife is one of the most powerful ways I worship Christ.

Likewise, wives should not submit to husbands because the husbands are worthy, but because Christ is worthy. Submission to one's husband is powerful worship of Christ.

Why isn't she worthy though? She is a baptized Christian, formed in the image of God, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That ain't exactly chump change.

nolidad · Jun 18, 2020

LaBèlla said:
An interesting article on biblical submission. The author raises some important points. —courtesy of True Love Dates

I ended up writing the following blog post, to express some of my concerns regarding the whole “submission culture” that we see in Christian communities, and posed a few important questions for all of us to chew on:

HAVE WE FOCUSED TOO MUCH ON SUBMISSION, AND TOO LITTLE ON LOVE?

As a Licensed Professional Counselor and relationship specialist, the truth of the matter is that I’ve seen this concept of “submission” defined and redefined in so many ways. And sadly, I’ve seen it used to fulfill selfish agendas and aid in manipulation, and at times, even abuse. As a Christian I’ve grown up in conservative circles hearing conversation after conversation about a “submissive wife”, but why is it that we’ve focused so much on submission, yet so little on the idea of establishing a loving marriage? Don’t the two go hand-in-hand?

As I look through Scripture, and even zoom-in on the Ephesians 5 passage where all this content stems, I see so much more about love than submission. In fact, the word “love” is used in some way, shape or form more than TWICE as much as the word submission in the referenced passage. There is a significant umbrella of love that is foundational to this concept, but so many times it gets looked over. We PREACH to the women about submission, yet all-the-while neglecting to TEACH the men about love.

Training a wife to submit to an unloving husband is like training a child to swim without water – it simply misses the mark, because there’s so much more to it than the superficial strokes.

Too many women have been bogged down in unhealthy and dangerous relationships yet answered with the simple concept of “submission”, rather than getting the REAL help they need to tackle and heal the root problems in their marriage. I’m just going to say it: there’s more to a healthy marriage than submission…and that more is found in the unconditional, life-giving, marriage-nourishing LOVE of Christ that has to be both given and received by husband and wife. Maybe it’s time we zoom in on that.

HAVE WE PLACED OUR OWN CULTURAL GENDER ROLES ON A SPIRITUAL CONCEPT?

Another thing I found myself questioning throughout the show was the idea that “submission” meant that a wife learn to be a good homemaker. I can confidently say I don’t see that anywhere in Scripture. Now granted, with reality TV, I am aware that there are limitations to what is portrayed and displayed (a.k.a edited out) on the screen, but one theme that kept shining through this particular show is the idea of creating “a happy husband” through cooking, cleaning, laundry, and sex.

I won’t deny that most men, my husband included, love and appreciate the things their wives do to show them love (often including cooking, cleaning, laundry and sex). And in fact, I LOVE doing those things for my husband!

But isn’t there a difference between acts of service toward our spouse, and the biblical concept of women submitting to their husbands!? Could it be that we have placed our own cultural gender roles on a spiritual concept? In my opinion, the answer is a resounding and absolute: YES!! THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!

I truly believe we’ve done the concept of biblical submission a terrible disservice by lumping it into the category of simply being a good homemaker. Not only so, but I believe that many women, who aren’t necessarily gifted in this way, may feel slighted and even offended by the thought that the reflection of their willingness to submit to their husbands is measured by the cleanliness of their house, the pile of their laundry, or the quality of their cooking. Which leads me to my last thought…

HAVE WE FOCUSED ON SUPERFICIAL ACTIONS WITHOUT TACKLING THE HEART OF THE ISSUE?

I won’t deny that biblical submission is an important topic, but I revolt against the mentality that it’s measured by a certain list of superficial things. I think deep down, at the heart of biblical submission is a woman’s ability and willingness to TRUST her husband in the give-and-take relationship of marriage.

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

As a woman, I know the tendency I have deep in my heart to just “take control” of any and every situation. But part of learning to be a wife was learning to let my will align with the will of my husband’s, as the two of us became one. And in order for me to unite with him, whether it be in lifestyle choices, decision making, intimacy, or parenting-issues, I had to learn to trust him in a way that, up until marriage, I had only done with God.

I had to learn to let go of my control issues, by learning to take into consideration someone else’s will, desires, and wants. This is where trust was SO huge. And it is only because of my love and submission to Jesus, paired with my husband’s love and submission to Jesus, that I was and am able to continually trust in his love and actions toward me.

Just listen to the unbelievable and challenging call to husbands in these next few verses, right after the concept of submission is presented for the first time:

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

What I’m trying to say here is that there is so much more to the concept of women submitting to their husbands in marriage than what we sometimes present in Christian culture.

As we see in the verses above, there is so much mutual respect, mutual love, and even mutual submission that HAS TO EXIST in a relationship in order for this process to truly work. It’s not about the laundry, the dishes, the finances, the sex, or the “last word” on decisions…more than anything, it’s about learning to trust, to respect, and ultimately, to love one another, as Christ has loved us.

And the thing about real love is this: you don’t have to constantly have your own back, when you know that someone else has your back better than you ever could! In the biblical sense of the term submission, you learn to let go, knowing that your husband loves, nurtures, and cares for you just as much as he loves himself and that your desires, opinions, and preferences will be heard! When it comes to women submitting to their husbands, true biblical submission is never one-sided, but in fact, it’s always triangular: Christ pours into us as we pour into one another, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. How beautiful is that?!

Imagine what could happen if we as a culture focused less on the term “submission”, and more on learning to become like Jesus through our actions, our habits, our communication styles, our finances, our sex-lives, and even our emotional intimacy? Imagine what our marriages would look like if we learned to be the closest reflection to Jesus our spouse would ever see?

I don’t know about you, but I’m all for that model of biblical marriage! May the Lord teach us to love, just as we’ve been loved by Him. And may that love impact our relationships, our marriages, our families, and even our world.

Your post is great on cultural problems, but doe nothing to address the biblical mandate for wives to submit.

You talk of love and submission. It is not either/or but both and! A wife is to submit to her husband in all things (unbiblical acts excluded of course) and a husband is to love his wife as Christ loves the church. If one spouse fails to live up to their command of God, it does not excuse the other spouse from obeying God! The two are one flesh!

Now in cases of physical abuse- a wife may leave and seperate for safeety reasons. But if they never get back to gether and she files for divorce, that is not biblical grounds for remarriage.

bekkilyn · Jun 18, 2020

Swag365 said:
I'll say one thing though - and I'm guessing a lot of men feel the same way. Sometimes all we want is just a bit of cooperation. Its nice to plan something or make some decisions, while having the person you are with just rolling with your choices. Like I have had some girlfriends, its a special occasion. I make some great plans, text "I'll pick you up at 7 wear something nice". She sends you a text back it is a smiley face. We go out and have an awesome time.

With other women almost every time it is like "Can we make it 8pm instead? Oh, I don't like that restaurant how about we choose this one instead? Did you reserve parking in advance?" It's a complete pain in the neck to deal with someone who cannot just sit back, let you take the lead and trust in your decisions now and then. If you have to choose between the former and the latter you are gonna take the former 100% of the time.

As strongly as I believe that there are no prescribed sex roles for men and women in marriage with the exception of biology (such as men not capable of giving birth), I agree with you here 100% and actually prefer it if someone else makes decisions once in a while and the ONLY thing required of me is to simply go along with it. Of course there are times and situations that very strongly motivate me to take the lead and I would really prefer if they just went along with what I want, but I definitely don't want that ALL the time or even most of the time. Most of the time I really don't care where we go to dinner or I don't care what movie we're seeing or whatever. If I don't have to do any of the work involved, then I consider it a huge blessing.

Much of the time, I think most of the people in these threads who promote all of these restrictive sex roles have either never been in a relationship with anyone and have no concept of reality, or they've been married for 25 years and are just parroting whatever it is they believe "the bible says" and they don't actually practice it in reality because they know their wives or husbands aren't going to tolerate being treated as slaves in their own house. People make a lot of this stuff far more complicated than it needs to be.

lsume · Jun 18, 2020

Scott Husted said:
It starts fundamentally with our eye being single ... in christ the two made one come in different forms but all lead to the same one truth.

Only Christ can give us the Gift of a Single Eye.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jun 18, 2020

bekkilyn said:
As strongly as I believe that there are no prescribed sex roles for men and women in marriage with the exception of biology (such as men not capable of giving birth), I agree with you here 100% and actually prefer it if someone else makes decisions once in a while and the ONLY thing required of me is to simply go along with it. Of course there are times and situations that very strongly motivate me to take the lead and I would really prefer if they just went along with what I want, but I definitely don't want that ALL the time or even most of the time. Most of the time I really don't care where we go to dinner or I don't care what movie we're seeing or whatever. If I don't have to do any of the work involved, then I consider it a huge blessing.

Much of the time, I think most of the people in these threads who promote all of these restrictive sex roles have either never been in a relationship with anyone and have no concept of reality, or they've been married for 25 years and are just parroting whatever it is they believe "the bible says" and they don't actually practice it in reality because they know their wives or husbands aren't going to tolerate being treated as slaves in their own house. People make a lot of this stuff far more complicated than it needs to be.

Spiritually everyone is capable of giving birth, in fact that is a prerequisite to salvation, don’tcha know.

bekkilyn · Jun 18, 2020

Swag365 said:
OK these are fair points. You don't want it to be a dynamic where it is like one person feels like he/she is an employee working for someone else's company. Yeah, it should be more like we are co-owners of the same franchise sort of a feel to it.

I feel like there must be some kind of big disconnect going on between men and women nowadays. Like from my viewpoint, what I see in most male/female relationships, especially among married folks, is like the man is constantly trying to work to appease his wife's ever increasing demands, and she is basically never satisfied or happy with his attempts to please her. When it comes to the "control" aspect I personally feel that the woman is dominant in most male/female relationships nowadays. But that is just my perspective in my particular neck of the woods.

Could it be that these "shared goals" are basically just "what the woman wants"? I remember once when I entered a new company, there was another male employee who basically wanted to exercise authority over me, but he would always attempt to do so under the guise of "working together as a team". Whenever he wanted something that was simply for his own personal benefit, he would try to couch it as a "team effort" to try to guilt me into going for something that was to his benefit and my detriment. Naturally, I saw though that.

I am not saying that is the case with all women, but possible? I wouldn't put it past folks who make that complaint (whether they are doing it consciously or subconsciously).

I find that in some relationships I had in the past, the men were a bit wimpy when it came to decisionmaking, and I would have to go out of my way to try to get them to reveal what they wanted to do, and when unsuccessful in the attempts, I would just decide something and they would go along with it and then months down the road it would just seem to come out of nowhere that they were upset because we were always doing what I wanted. Hello! Why didn't you TELL me! I would even ASK and get the "it doesn't matter" or "whatever" type of response.

Now I did have a pretty long term relationship with a man who was really good in that regard. He made a lot of decisions and I was happy to go along with it, but if there was something I really wanted to do, even if it wasn't his thing, he would go along with it. There were a lot of things about that relationship that worked well, and that was one of them. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that many other men have that sort of balance. Too much on the wimpy side or too much on the entitled opposite extreme.

bekkilyn · Jun 18, 2020

Swag365 said:
This is cool, but in all my years on the earth I have never seen a woman mow the lawn. I'm just saying. It ain't like if I woman said "I am not mowing the lawn I expect my husband to mow it" folks are gonna be like "She isn't a team player".

Paidiske said:
Sure. I think the big difference between the lawn mowing and the diaper changing, since we're working with those examples, is that lawns need mowing, what? Maybe once a month? And they're not so urgent that if you can't/won't do them today, they can't wait until tomorrow.

I'm having a really good laugh, giggle, chuckle, whatever about both your comments concerning mowing lawns.

Once a month? The lawn would look like an Amazonian jungle letting it go for that long around here. If you could look at my yard, you could easily see it since I rarely have the time, motivation, or energy to mow and it always looks terrible.

While it does seem that more men tend to do the mowing, many women are out mowing as well, and that's especially true the more rural you go and folks just hop onto their tractors to get it done. No kangaroos required!

As far D.C. goes, I didn't even know there was grass there to mow, but then my vision of D.C. is more in line with lots of rubble and ruins and huge supermutants taking over the rotunda, and ghouls infesting the underground.

I solved the whole diaper-changing problem by just deciding long ago not to have any babies.

bèlla · Jun 18, 2020

DamianWarS said:
This wasn't a joke. "Winner", " likes" and "agree" doesn't answer the question. If the role of a man is to love, then what does that love look like? What doesn't it look like? Because if @LaBèlla is correct this sort of love is in short supply or even missing. Why is it a man seems to have such a hard time addressing the love needs of his wife and what are these needs?

Many are following a script instead of communicating with the person in front of them. It doesn't matter what I require in my relationship. You aren't married to me. You need to speak to your spouse and listen attentively. Truly hear them. Don't base your behavior on assumptions or well-meaning advice. What does she want? That's the answer.

My priority is pleasing my man and making him happy. I study him and pay attention to the things he says and does. I pour into him liberally. Your deposits must outweigh the withdrawals if you want a healthy relationship. I make mistakes. But they're opportunities to go deeper and stretch myself.

I'm service driven and my companion desires that from me. I'm speaking his language. He affirms and supports my calling and personal growth. He's nurturing and generous. We want to see one another bettered on every level. That's an outgrowth of mutual respect and admiration.

I don't need a sonnet. I need a man who can stand and chart a course. I don't want to be the leader. I'm running a business and building a label. I have enough on my plate. I want to rest in the comfort of his care. Because he's got us.

Providing an atmosphere where I can indulge my femininity without complaint is priceless. I can feed my inner Martha (Stewart) and champion our hopes and dreams. That's what I want. It makes me happy.

We were candid from the start. We're self-aware and knew what we sought in a companion and how we envisioned ourselves and the relationship. There are compromises of course. But we view them in light of the whole. The greater goal we're pursuing. There's give-and-take on both sides.

What helps us most is shared non conformity. We aren't easily influenced by others. Our ethos has a divine source. But we don't expect to walk it out perfectly. We're not attempting to be super Christians. We aim to honor God and fulfill our purpose.

For us, submission goes beyond the pale of these discussions. Its a mutual descent in oneness. One facet isn't greater than the other. You need each to complete the picture. Alignment of will is part of that. But it doesn't sanction exploitation or abuse. You protect the pearl above all. Because its precious.

~Bella

Peter J Barban · Jun 18, 2020

Swag365 said:
Why isn't she worthy though? She is a baptized Christian, formed in the image of God, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That ain't exactly chump change.

If you do something because your wife is worthy, then you worship her. Only God is worthy.

bèlla · Jun 18, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
Some years ago I perused some dating sites. I never met the qualifications and standards that any woman required.

Most standards aren't set in stone. My companion wanted a homemaker. He got an entrepreneur instead.

But he received the rest and gained more than he expected. I did too. Profiles are guidelines but few are set in stone. You don't know the measure of wiggle room. But if you make an impression they'll budge.

~Bella

bekkilyn · Jun 18, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
He looks dead.

No! Sleeping!

OldWiseGuy · Jun 18, 2020

bekkilyn said:
No! Sleeping!

Ok, but I missed the meaning. :scratch:

bekkilyn · Jun 18, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
Ok, but I missed the meaning.

I barely remember anymore, but I think you made some sort of comment about being lazy in response to someone else, or something like that! It made perfect sense at the time!

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jun 18, 2020

Peter J Barban said:
If you do something because your wife is worthy, then you worship her. Only God is worthy.

No duh

OldWiseGuy · Jun 18, 2020

bekkilyn said:
I barely remember anymore, but I think you made some sort of comment about being lazy in response to someone else, or something like that! It made perfect sense at the time!

I think it started with LaBella's post #101, and went down the rabbit hole from there.

[MOVED] Women Submitting To Their Husbands: What Christians Get Wrong

Wake me when it's soup.

Wake me when it's soup.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Wake me when it's soup.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Contemplative Christian

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Contemplative Christian

Contemplative Christian

❤️

Well-Known Member

❤️

Contemplative Christian

Wake me when it's soup.

Contemplative Christian

Well-Known Member

Wake me when it's soup.

Similar threads