JESUS is not the archangel Michael !

Strong in Him said:

All of the above?
The point is, he is not the eternal Son of God.

Click to expand...

I agree, he is definitely not YHWH.

Dkh587 said:

the angel of Yahweh gives his name in Exodus 3 - he’s not unnamed.

Click to expand...

That messenger was the Word. The Lord of heaven and earth. His Majesty is in charge of archangels and angels.

Archangels can lead angels but under the direction of their supreme Lord.

if the man appearing in Joshua 5 is Michael, then yes the ground is holy when he appears.

Click to expand...

If the ground is holy then that is YHWH.

It looks highly likely that the angel of Yahweh, the Word of Yahweh, Michael, the Prince of the army of Yahweh, the angel of the Presence etc are all different names and titles for 1 figure in the OT, which would be the pre-incarnate Messiah.

Click to expand...

YHWH and Michael are different entities. Michael defers to YHWH at all times.

Considering that Michael is the archangel, meaning he is the ruler of the angels, that would mean he is the leader/prince of the army of God. The army of God is comprised of angels, whom Michael is the ruler of.

Click to expand...

Your chain of command is incorrect.

YHWH - Archangel - angel.

this man in Joshua 5 appears and says he is the prince(which means ruler) of the army of Yahweh.

Click to expand...

Correct an archangel is higher than an angel. But Michael is subservient to the one who created them, YHWH.

Do him & Michael occupy different positions? Does Michael rule over part of them, and the man in Joshua 5 rule over another part?

Click to expand...

YHWH rules over all angels.

who is the prince of the army of God?

Click to expand...

Michael is but one prince and there are other princes, watch out for the King of Kings.

robycop3 said:

No, it was God The Father who met with Moses on Sinai. Jesus has never prevented men from seeing His face.

Click to expand...

That's not correct. No one has ever seen the Father, heard Him speak, or known the Father. Read the gospel of John.

klutedavid said:

That messenger was the Word. The Lord of heaven and earth. His Majesty is in charge of archangels and angels.

Archangels can lead angels but under the direction of their supreme Lord.If the ground is holy then that is YHWH.YHWH and Michael are different entities. Michael defers to YHWH at all times.Your chain of command is incorrect.

YHWH - Archangel - angel.Correct an archangel is higher than an angel. But Michael is subservient to the one who created them, YHWH.YHWH rules over all angels.Michael is but one prince and there are other princes, watch out for the King of Kings.

Click to expand...

You use the term “archangels”, plural, but where do you get the plural word? I’ve asked where the evidence is that there is more than 1. Do you have any? I’m genuinely asking.

robycop3 said:

It was Jesus who appeared to Joshua. An angel does not hallow the ground where he stands, maling it holy. Only GOD does that.

Click to expand...

When the angel of Yahweh appeared to Moses, he made the ground holy.

robycop3 said:

No, it was God The Father who met with Moses on Sinai. Jesus has never prevented men from seeing His face.

Click to expand...

John 1:18

No man hath seen God at any time

Click to expand...

John 5:37

And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Click to expand...

1 Timothy 6:16

whom no man hath seen, nor can see

Click to expand...

Dkh587 said:

You use the term “archangels”, plural, but where do you get the plural word? I’ve asked where the evidence is that there is more than 1. Do you have any? I’m genuinely asking.

Click to expand...

Jews and Christians have always understood that there are a number of chief angels. The books of the Bible don't explicitly say anything one way or another about how many archangels there are; but the religio-historical context of the Bible was people who believed in a plurality of archangels. That is why Christianity has always understood to be a number of archangels. The question is how many, and there is no consensus to that question.

-CryptoLutheran

Dkh587 said:

You use the term “archangels”, plural, but where do you get the plural word? I’ve asked where the evidence is that there is more than 1. Do you have any? I’m genuinely asking.

Click to expand...

Daniel 10:13
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

Strong in Him said:

The teaching that Jesus is the archangel Michael is JW doctrine, not Christian doctrine.

Scripture says that Jesus is the eternal Word, the Son of God who was with God in the beginning; through whom ALL things were created, even the angels.
Jesus is, was and always will be God; the Alpha and the Omega, the author and perfecter of our faith, and the One whom before, one day, every knee will bow in heaven and on earth. He is superior to the angelinites; Hebrews 1.
The archangel Michael is the archangel Michael. Angels are created beings; created to serve God.

Click to expand...

I've spoken to many JWs and have never realised their critical doctrone; like most Christians they have abrogated at least parts of the Law.

The faith depends on there being a spiritual realm, yet flesh and blood has seen it or can go there; the number of angels are infinite. There seems to be evidence that Jesus and Michael are the same entity at times they have the same job description.

Apart from your literalist approach you seem to be depending on what isn't said, like the Bible does not say Jesus and Michael are one entity or are one type; the Bible "doesn't say", more than the Bible "says"; if the Bible said everything it's size would be infinite; you say Jesus is the first and the last, and it is true; but the first and the last to do what?

klutedavid said:

There is zero evidence that the angel of the Lord is Michael. That is speculation.

There is sufficient evidence that the messenger of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Christ.

Mr Sparow, in your church, do you believe in the death and resurrection of Michael?

Click to expand...

There is probably a name for what you are doing; when God created mans head it wasn't specifically to wear a hat but to also use the brains included; but not for vanity.

I do not have a hard opinion about who Michael is, but if he were Christ he would have become human, the first to die and be raised from the death; he might also be the last to be raised to eternal life.

Had Michael been a fallen angel he would have became human and would take part in one of the resurrections.

sparow said:

There is probably a name for what you are doing; when God created mans head it wasn't specifically to wear a hat but to also use the brains included; but not for vanity.

Click to expand...

Yes there is a name for what I am doing, it is called quoting scripture.

Daniel 10:13
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

See Michael is but one of the chief princes.

I do not have a hard opinion about who Michael is

Click to expand...

The SDA has a long tradition of associating Michael with Jesus.

You obviously can see some of the cracks in the SDA understanding of the scripture.

sparow said:

There seems to be evidence that Jesus and Michael are the same entity at times they have the same job description.

Click to expand...

I wasn't aware that God had a "job description".

sparow said:

Apart from your literalist approach you seem to be depending on what isn't said, like the Bible does not say Jesus and Michael are one entity or are one type; the Bible "doesn't say", more than the Bible "says"; if the Bible said everything it's size would be infinite;

Click to expand...

Of course.
But if God the Son and an archangel were one and the same, not only would we be told, but I can't see any reason for the different descriptions.
The eternal Word, God the Son; present before the world began, created of all things, including angels, one with God, became incarnate, was given the name Jesus (Greek; Hebrew Joshua, meaning Saviour) was crucified, died, rose again and will return one day in glory, before whom every knee in heaven and on earth will bow.
Archangel Michael; and archangel (or chief angel), created by the eternal word, given the name Michael (Hebrew, meaning 'who is like God?').

They don't sound at all the same.
If Michael and Jesus are the same person, that means the Son of God, who is eternal and created all things, created himself and gave himself 2 names.

sparow said:

you say Jesus is the first and the last, and it is true; but the first and the last to do what?

Click to expand...

The first and last of everything - present before the world was created, still present when, and after, the world has ended. The One who was, who is and who is to come - constant, eternal, not created at a certain point.

For those who think that Archangel Michael is Jesus the Christ:

"Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.."
1 Timothy 4:1

klutedavid said:

Yes there is a name for what I am doing, it is called quoting scripture.

Daniel 10:13
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

See Michael is but one of the chief princes.The SDA has a long tradition of associating Michael with Jesus.

You obviously can see some of the cracks in the SDA understanding of the scripture.

Click to expand...

I believe you are mistaken about the SDA position on Michael. What you are doing is called identity politics; nothing to do with scripture.

The Bible does not say Angels are created beings; Angel means messenger but the Bible does not say what their origin is. It says one third of the fought against God, but when that war began is not known; but the second death brings the war to an end.

Dan 12:1-3 says Michael, but it seems to me those verses are talking about Christ; but my salvation is not dependant on that assumption being true; my fear is I will be judged on lawlessness, but not on misunderstanding scripture.

Daniel 12:1-3 (NKJV)
1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.


Daniel 9:25 (NKJV)
25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.