Shades of Calvinism vs. the Gospel

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
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Hebrews 11 says without faith it is impossible to please God. This tells me that faith is my responsibility and not God's. I need to exercise faith. Why on Earth do you think Jesus marveled at the Centurion over his great faith? Did Jesus marvel at the works of the Father? They are one. Jesus was marveling at the man and his faith because his faith (not God's faith) was uncommon or highly unusual among the many.
How does it tell you that faith is your responsibility and not God's? Even Arminianism (synergism) allows it is at least in part God's. Faith can indeed be increased and your decisions have everything in the world to do with that. But you can do nothing on your own. "Without me you can do nothing."

Every good thing about, from or within you is a gift and work of God. Reformed Theology doesn't deny real choice. It only claims it is real because of God.
 
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Tra Phull

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Round-earth-ism, OAO-ism, Continuationism, Arminianism - I guess I am all these isms

Yes, most Arminians believe in a synergy - they (we) are divided on OSAS vs OSnAS

Arminians believe in Depravity - but our TOTAL is not the TOTAL of Calvinism; it has been said to be Partial Depravity, but Arminius never used that phrase to my knowledge

Arminius wrote of both Corporate Predestination ( a CLASS of people - "believers" - are predestined) as well as Individual Predestination
( people predestined according to God's FOREKNOWLEDGE of who would believe and persist in believing )

Arminius did not think a believer could lose their salvation, but that it might be possible for a person to cease being a believer

His followers felt OSAS vs OSnAS was too close to call

No one has, or has seen the Original Autographs, so that is sort of a bizarre ism - OAO-ism, but I like it because it is bizarre

Some Cessationists become Continuationists, some Continuationists become Cessationists, at least I have seen people on line claim so.
 
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Ok, so that applies to others, but not you, right? My initial entry to this discussion, excluding the Biblical quotes was 679 words. Your response here, excluding the quotes, was 688 words long.

Well, I do not have a problem with long posts. I myself have created my fair share of them. I am just letting you know that I may not always address a person's long post on matters that I consider to be on a topic I consider to be silly. Again, I consider Calvinism as akin to the Flat Earth Theory. I sometimes simply address just one error in a person's super long post to show the flaw in their reasoning, and move on, or I may hang in there with them.

Anyways, the total count of the words in your post #97 was: 881 words. The total count of my posts to you in return (post #106) was: 782 words long. While both of our posts seem lengthy, your post had 99 more words than mine, and your post was written as one big bulk reply (and it did not address my points in the OP). I replied to what you said in bite size pieces breaking up my words in short paragraphs to the quote of your own words (kind of like mini posts within a post). So it did not look like a giant block of information to reply to.

Again, if you don't want to actually talk to people about this topic, and not something you want to spend much time on, I recommend you not actually creating a topic on something you don't want to spend much time on.

The issue was with the size of the post coupled with a topic I find to be silly. I do not mind making time in replying to shorter replies because it is less time consuming.

You said:
While you get hungup on labels, I don't. While you engage in a lot of theological wizardry to make the texts conform to your belief, I prefer a much more simple approach and allow the Scripture to speak for itself.

I can say the same for you, but we both cannot be correct.

You said:
Everyone needs to have a theology on predestination. Why? Because Paul literally uses the word in his letters. He believes in it, he teaches it.

Nowhere did I deny the words predestination in the Bible or deny I do not have a Theology involving predestination.
That is a straw man you have erected, my friend.

So what do we do with it? I think there is a clear tension in Scripture that a lot of people deal with poorly. Bible Highlighter is a clear example of a semipelagian that deals with this poorly. We need to be honest to what Scripture teaches, and not try to force it to say something when it doesn't.

Semi Pelagianism teaches free will in regards to coming to initial saving faith, but the latter half – growing in faith – is the work of God. This is not exactly what I believe. So you have incorrectly labeled what I actually believe, friend.

I believe in Synergism. I believe God draws man, and man responds of his own free will. God lives in the faithful believer, and He continues to nudge Him to walk in His good ways. This does not mean that such a person cannot resist God and His ways later on in their life and or even fall away from the faith and or the Lord.

You said:
For example, Paul is clear in Ephesians that before coming to Christ, we are dead in our sins. We are by nature children of wrath. He uses the strong language of death intentionally and purposefully, and literally. To ignore it or try to wish it away is just dishonest.

No dishonesty involved. I believe people focus a laser beam on certain parts of Scripture and make them say something that they do not really say (or they go beyond what the text says and ignore other verses in light of that text they read). I will reply to you in my next post on this point.
 
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Ok, so that applies to others, but not you, right? My initial entry to this discussion, excluding the Biblical quotes was 679 words. Your response here, excluding the quotes, was 688 words long.

Again, if you don't want to actually talk to people about this topic, and not something you want to spend much time on, I recommend you not actually creating a topic on something you don't want to spend much time on.

While you get hungup on labels, I don't. While you engage in a lot of theological wizardry to make the texts conform to your belief, I prefer a much more simple approach and allow the Scripture to speak for itself.

Everyone needs to have a theology on predestination. Why? Because Paul literally uses the word in his letters. He believes in it, he teaches it. So what do we do with it? I think there is a clear tension in Scripture that a lot of people deal with poorly. Bible Highlighter is a clear example of a semipelagian that deals with this poorly. We need to be honest to what Scripture teaches, and not try to force it to say something when it doesn't.

For example, Paul is clear in Ephesians that before coming to Christ, we are dead in our sins. We are by nature children of wrath. He uses the strong language of death intentionally and purposefully, and literally. To ignore it or try to wish it away is just dishonest.

Paul is very clear that Salvation comes by grace, through faith, and not by works. This is also very clear. He goes on to really drill the point by making it clear that we have nothing to boast about, because works play no part. It's very simple. If works played any part in our Salvation, then we would have something to boast about - there's no avoiding that. Try. You can't. if I have any part in my Salvation, then I can boast about that. But Paul is clear that we cannot boast because Salvation is entirely by grace, through faith.

I think both the Calvinism camp and the Semipelagian camp have some good insights, but both fall short and both don't do all of Scripture justice. Both are guilty of isegesis, and both are guilty of ignoring Scriptures that are problematic to their position, or if they don't ignore them, they are guilty of just poor hermeneutics.

Fact is that we are responsible for our choices this side of heaven. Fact is that we are all born separated from God, all needing forgiveness of sins. Fact is that the Salvation we need comes through, and only through the atoning work of Christ on the cross.

PS - The theory that the KJV of the Bible is the only valid English translation is actually a little more laughable than flat-earth theory.

Here is a quote from a good article that addresses your wrong conclusions on man's sinful state before coming to Christ:

Ephesians 2:1-3
A Calvinistic View:
Before one is saved, he is spiritually dead. He is enslaved by sin, only living to fulfill his desires. His natural disposition is to sin and live selfishly. Therefore, he cannot respond to the gospel. Just as a dead man cannot move, walk, or even think, God must first make him alive. If he is spiritually dead, how can he hear, understand, believe, repent, or obey?

This proves man's inability to respond to the gospel, much less save himself. It also proves that man is born with a nature that is totally depraved, since the following passage specifically says that men were "by nature children of wrath".

"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others." Ephesians 2:1-3

Response:
Both physical and spiritual death is the result of sin (Romans 6:23). Spiritual severance from God occurs whenever we sin, since the Holy God cannot fellowship sin (I John 1:5-6; I Peter 1:16). However, physical death also came about as a result of sin (Genesis 3:17-24). By himself, man cannot resolve this condition. Without God’s grace, condemnation and wrath looms over the head of the sinful man. However, the fact that man, without God’s help, cannot do anything to save himself, does not imply that man is not required to do something with God’s help.

Erroneously inferring from "death" that man is unable to move or respond to God’s spiritual call comes from an underestimation of the power of the gospel, with which God calls us. It is the power unto salvation (Romans 1:16). It has the power to prick the sinner's heart (Acts 1:37), convicting his conscience of sin (Hebrews 4:12; John 16:8; Titus 1:9). It is the mirror that shows us our horrible, twisted condition (James 1:21-25). In this way, God calls us through His Word, message, and gospel (II Thessalonians 2:14; I Peter 5:10). Jesus referred to the dead, who would hear this call:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live." (John 5:25)

Please notice that "hearing" the call precedes "living". How can one hear anything if he is dead, as taught by the Calvinist? The Calvinist would have us to believe that we are dead, unconscious, unresponsive, and unaware, just as are those bodies lying in the cemeteries, yet Christ said they could hear. Therefore, this presents a dilemma: Did the Calvinist push the illustration of Ephesians 2:1 beyond the intention of the author, or did Christ misspeak when he stated that hearing preceded life, and not the other way around? Again, please notice that on Pentecost, when the Jews were "pricked in their hearts" by the gospel, they were still in need of forgiveness. When they felt the prick and responded, they were not yet spiritually alive (Acts 2:37-38).

The phrase "by nature children of wrath" is brought into harmony with the remainder of Scripture when we realize that the Greek word for "nature" has multiple meanings. It can be used to refer to the primary and innate constitution of a subject (Galatians 2:15; 4:8), but according to Thayer's Greek Dictionary, it can also refer to the nature acquired through long course of habit (I Corinthians 11:14). Therefore, it does not necessarily refer to the way someone is born. It can also refer to man's sinful nature acquired through repeated sins. How do we know which one is intended?

The context speaks nothing of birth, much less a sinful nature acquired at birth. However, it does speak of all men as having once "walked according to the course of this world ... fulfilling the desires of the flesh". Although this sounds more like a long term, habitual lifestyle, the question is best answered when the verse placed in the context of Scripture as a whole, which clearly teaches that man is born innocent. The nature under discussion in this context comes as a consequence of the process under discussion in verse 3: lusts, then fulfillment, then repeated until it became their nature, which placed them in a doomed state. It is the result, not the cause.

Unless one can show from the context that the sinful "nature" is acquired at birth, opposed to acquirement through long-term practice, then how can it be used as a proof-text, if it is ambiguous at best?

Article Source:
Responses to the Calvinist

Peace and blessings be unto you in the Lord.
 
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How does it tell you that faith is your responsibility and not God's? Even Arminianism (synergism) allows it is at least in part God's. Faith can indeed be increased and your decisions have everything in the world to do with that. But you can do nothing on your own. "Without me you can do nothing."

Every good thing about, from or within you is a gift and work of God. Reformed Theology doesn't deny real choice. It only claims it is real because of God.

Well, Calvinism does deny that we have a real choice in choosing God because God was the one who regenerated them in order to believe and make a choice. Without this regeneration, or election, they could not be saved before exercising faith, and they could not act outside their depraved state to choose faith in the Lord. But that is not what the Bible teaches. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17), and not by election or regeneration.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 says,
“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

There are those who have received not the love of the truth that they might be saved. Hence, this is why they perish. This verse does not say that God has elected them to damnation as the reason why they perish. It says that THEY receive not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. MIGHT suggests a possibility. They MIGHT be saved. Means, there was a chance for them. They had hope. The ball was in their court.
 
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Synergism is good, Silly-ism is bad.

Silly-ism sees the earth as flat, and a person ****

Yes, the flat earth theory is silly.

As for your chosen words involving Calvinism:
While I have no love for Calvinism, I would encourage you brother to re-edit your words in regards to Calvinism to be a little more friendlier or diplomatic. Some may complain and or report your post as being hateful.

Note: If we were talking in person, I would not have an issue with these words. But some here may take a great offense to such wording involving Calvinism, brother. I am just trying to protect you.

May God's good ways always be upon you, brother.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Then Calvinism serves no purpose then. Should we preach that we must be saved by election or should we preach the gospel? Paul says, “For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.” (1 Corinthians 2:2).

If election for salvation was so important to know (i.e. Calvinism), then this is what should be preached instead (Which would appear contrary to what Paul preached). Paul defines the gospel for us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. This gospel is defined for us as believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later for salvation. This is the gospel. The gospel is not Calvinism as certain Calvinists say. Paul says in Romans 1:16 that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. This is the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. This is not being saved by election.
I am not a fan of "isms" or denominations full stop. I know people point to Spurgeon as a Calvinist. I happen to believe in predestination. When it comes to preaching the gospel to the unsaved, I avoid mentioning predestination. There is no point. One of the Calvinists used to pray, "God, save all your elect. Then elect some more!" I can understand that sentiment.
 
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Something for Calvibots to consider - if God is sovereign, did He predestinate me to be Arminian?

Good Day, TraPhull

Like has been said by the father of the first great awaking:

George Whitfield said, “We are all born Arminians.” It is grace that turns us into Calvinists.

Just like i told my Independent Fundamentalist Baptist KJVO pastor....God is not done with you yet.

In Him,

Bill
 
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BBAS 64

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Hi Bill,

If a man asks God for forgiveness and God forgives him and gives the man a new birth by the Holy Spirit. Was this man then saved by himself or was it a gift of God?


Good Day, Peter

That would make man the primary effective cause in His own salvation.

Seeking forgiveness is the result of the new heart not the cause of it.

And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.


Seeking forgiveness would be considered a good thing would it not ??

But we know that do to the unrighteousness of man he alone can do no good thing, he does not understand, he does not seek God.

“None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.

God alone is the primary effective cause of our Salvation, we are directly effected by that which he alone does for His purposes and for His glory that is what makes Him God..


In Him,

Bill
 
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I am not a fan of "isms" or denominations full stop.

The churches in Revelation were named after their locations to set them apart and or to identify them.

In the dictionary it is defined as:

1. denomination - the act of naming or designating; a group of religious congregations having its own organization and a distinctive faith

Denomination | Definition of Denomination by Webster's Online Dictionary

In Revelation: Most of the churches listed had wrong beliefs, and only two of them were faithful churches. Yet, these churches that were faithful were named. Granted, I have listed myself as non-denominational on the forums because I find most churches today as not following God's Word, but if a believer wanted to start a church (that seeks to build a revival in getting back to the basics of the Bible), a name will in time be attached to what their church is called (Whether they want that to happen or not). I would not even be against a group calling themselves a specific name that helps to distinguish their beliefs in the Bible (if it is something that the Bible teaches of the utmost importance) and gives glory to God.

As for “isms”:

Everyone on planet Earth has an “ism” including you.
The letters “ism” merely expresses a doctrine or belief that you hold to within the Bible or it helps us to identify other beliefs that are unbiblical. To not be fan of their use is to not understand the basics of words and their meaning. For example: “Theism” is defined as the belief in a God. If you look up the word “Theism” in the dictionary this is one of its definitions. Granted, it is not provide a list of a perfect definition, because it should give us a definition as saying the belief in THE one and only true God. The point here is that surely you believe in God, so you would fall under believing in Theism. But I hope you hold to other beliefs that the Bible teaches. If so,... there is an “ism” attached to that belief to help us identify it.

You said:
I know people point to Spurgeon as a Calvinist. I happen to believe in predestination. When it comes to preaching the gospel to the unsaved, I avoid mentioning predestination. There is no point. One of the Calvinists used to pray, "God, save all your elect. Then elect some more!" I can understand that sentiment.

This Calvinist is praying a contradiction. In true Calvinism: God is going to save who is going to save according to His will, and He is going to not save who chooses to not save. Praying to God to save His elect is a contradiction in terms. God has already decreed who will be saved & not saved in Calvinism. So prayer is useless in regards to praying for the elect to be saved because they will be saved according to God's decree in Calvinism. Take for example Matthew 9:38.

Matthew 9:38 says,
“Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.”

This verse does not make sense in light of Unconditional Election or Calvinistic Predestination. There is no purpose to pray that the Lord of the harvest will send forth laborers into his harvest because God has already decreed by election long ago those who will be saved, and those who will not be saved. Our prayers are meaningless to change God's will if we believe in Calvinism. That is why I believe Calvinism is unbiblical. Just reading your Bible plainly and believing all the free will statements within it will automatically refute Calvinism. But most of course would rather follow this odd belief for their own reasons.
 
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Good Day, TraPhull

Like has been said by the father of the first great awaking:

George Whitfield said, “We are all born Arminians.” It is grace that turns us into Calvinists.

Just like i told my Independent Fundamentalist Baptist KJVO pastor....God is not done with you yet.

In Him,

Bill

I am sure there are plenty of Baptists who have died throughout history who rejected Calvinism unto their graves. If your Pastor has any acceptance of basic logic and in accepting the plain reading of the KJV, my guess is that he will never be a Calvinist if he currently rejects it and finds it to be extremely distasteful.

Calvinism is a belief system that is totally foreign to the Bible. One has to insert these ideas into the Bible taking certain verses out of their context to make them work. While Calvinism is silly and highly illogical to me, I understand why people hold to this belief. I believe it stems from those who do not want to take responsibility on certain things that God desires them to take responsibility for (i.e. like having a proper faith and living holy unto the Lord) Important Note: If they are a classic old puritan Calvinist like John Owen, who is strong for holy living (which is rare these days), they are seeking to be more special than they really are because they feel they will be holy because they are chosen by God above anyone else. But Paul says if anyone thinks himself to be something when he is nothing, he deceives himself - Galatians 6:3).

While there are many wonderful gemstones in Scripture that demolishes Calvinism, 2 Thessalonians 2:10 is a big one that refutes Calvinism. Try doing a short word for word commentary on it within the KJV sometime. My guess is that you will have to alter the words and or their meaning in order to make it fit your belief. But if you just read and believe what this verse says plainly, you will no longer be a Calvinist.
 
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BNR32FAN

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In my experience in discussing and studying Calvinism: All forms of Calvinism promote the idea that it is ultimately God who saves you and it is in nothing that you did. A person is saved by election or by some kind of regeneration before they exercise faith in the gospel. Many Calvinists believe (from my understanding on Calvinism) is that they consider our free will choice to exercise faith as a work, and thus God needs to save us by His grace and change us. God saves us, and we do not make the choice to be saved (in the world of Calvinism). Some in Calvinism say that “Calvinism is the gospel.”

This is not what I believe the Bible teaches. I believe the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe. The gospel is defined for us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. The gospel is believing that Christ died for us, that He was buried, and He was risen three days later on our behalf for salvation. This is the gospel upon which we are saved. This is how we first get saved is by believing the gospel by faith. We are not saved before this point by the grace of God or by Him zapping us or regenerating us to be saved. We exercise faith in the gospel and then we are saved.

What did the early church teach regarding Calvinism?

Calvin’s doctrines were refuted in 170AD.

1. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.


2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.


3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.


4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to personswho oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all goodthings, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39
 
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Good Day, Peter

That would make man the primary effective cause in His own salvation.

Seeking forgiveness is the result of the new heart not the cause of it.

And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.


Seeking forgiveness would be considered a good thing would it not ??

But we know that do to the unrighteousness of man he alone can do no good thing, he does not understand, he does not seek God.

“None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.

God alone is the primary effective cause of our Salvation, we are directly effected by that which he alone does for His purposes and for His glory that is what makes Him God..


In Him,

Bill

I believe Romans 3:10-12 is referring to the heathen or Gentiles from Psalms 14:1-3. Romans 3:10-12 is not a blanket statement rule saying that a person could not change their own direction by choosing God. This merely is showing how the Gentiles did not generally seek after God. We see this in the Old Testament. Granted, this was not always the case, because Ruth, Rahab, and the Ninevites came to God. But they were the exception or the few. Read in this light or way, the passage makes more sense in light of what we read in other parts of the Bible. For why would God try to reason with Cain in doing good if Cain was reprobate and unelected? How were the Ninevites able to avert the wrath of God's judgment by their choosing to repent and forsake their evil ways if God decreed their judgment to damnation? You are simply reading a Bible with rose colored Calvinistic glasses, my friend. For me: Your belief sets up a long series of unnecessary contradictions in my Bible (if read plainly).
 
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BBAS 64

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Here is a quote from a good article that addresses your wrong conclusions on man's sinful state before coming to Christ:

Ephesians 2:1-3
A Calvinistic View:
Before one is saved, he is spiritually dead. He is enslaved by sin, only living to fulfill his desires. His natural disposition is to sin and live selfishly. Therefore, he cannot respond to the gospel. Just as a dead man cannot move, walk, or even think, God must first make him alive. If he is spiritually dead, how can he hear, understand, believe, repent, or obey?

This proves man's inability to respond to the gospel, much less save himself. It also proves that man is born with a nature that is totally depraved, since the following passage specifically says that men were "by nature children of wrath".

"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others." Ephesians 2:1-3

Response:
Both physical and spiritual death is the result of sin (Romans 6:23). Spiritual severance from God occurs whenever we sin, since the Holy God cannot fellowship sin (I John 1:5-6; I Peter 1:16). However, physical death also came about as a result of sin (Genesis 3:17-24). By himself, man cannot resolve this condition. Without God’s grace, condemnation and wrath looms over the head of the sinful man. However, the fact that man, without God’s help, cannot do anything to save himself, does not imply that man is not required to do something with God’s help.

Erroneously inferring from "death" that man is unable to move or respond to God’s spiritual call comes from an underestimation of the power of the gospel, with which God calls us. It is the power unto salvation (Romans 1:16). It has the power to prick the sinner's heart (Acts 1:37), convicting his conscience of sin (Hebrews 4:12; John 16:8; Titus 1:9). It is the mirror that shows us our horrible, twisted condition (James 1:21-25). In this way, God calls us through His Word, message, and gospel (II Thessalonians 2:14; I Peter 5:10). Jesus referred to the dead, who would hear this call:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live." (John 5:25)

Please notice that "hearing" the call precedes "living". How can one hear anything if he is dead, as taught by the Calvinist? The Calvinist would have us to believe that we are dead, unconscious, unresponsive, and unaware, just as are those bodies lying in the cemeteries, yet Christ said they could hear. Therefore, this presents a dilemma: Did the Calvinist push the illustration of Ephesians 2:1 beyond the intention of the author, or did Christ misspeak when he stated that hearing preceded life, and not the other way around? Again, please notice that on Pentecost, when the Jews were "pricked in their hearts" by the gospel, they were still in need of forgiveness. When they felt the prick and responded, they were not yet spiritually alive (Acts 2:37-38).

The phrase "by nature children of wrath" is brought into harmony with the remainder of Scripture when we realize that the Greek word for "nature" has multiple meanings. It can be used to refer to the primary and innate constitution of a subject (Galatians 2:15; 4:8), but according to Thayer's Greek Dictionary, it can also refer to the nature acquired through long course of habit (I Corinthians 11:14). Therefore, it does not necessarily refer to the way someone is born. It can also refer to man's sinful nature acquired through repeated sins. How do we know which one is intended?

The context speaks nothing of birth, much less a sinful nature acquired at birth. However, it does speak of all men as having once "walked according to the course of this world ... fulfilling the desires of the flesh". Although this sounds more like a long term, habitual lifestyle, the question is best answered when the verse placed in the context of Scripture as a whole, which clearly teaches that man is born innocent. The nature under discussion in this context comes as a consequence of the process under discussion in verse 3: lusts, then fulfillment, then repeated until it became their nature, which placed them in a doomed state. It is the result, not the cause.

Unless one can show from the context that the sinful "nature" is acquired at birth, opposed to acquirement through long-term practice, then how can it be used as a proof-text, if it is ambiguous at best?

Article Source:
Responses to the Calvinist

Peace and blessings be unto you in the Lord.


Good Day, BH

I would say based upon the logical conclusions that have to be drawn from the final statement. This witter has a sub-Christian view of original sin, and an unbiblical understanding of anthropology.

Known as Pelagianism ... and so you know the drill.

I do not entertain such error, someone else may but not I.

In Him

Bill
 
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Good Day, BH

I would say based upon the logical conclusions that have to be drawn from the final statement. This witter has a sub-Christian view of original sin, and an unbiblical understanding of anthropology.

Known as Pelagianism ... and so you know the drill.

I do not entertain such error, someone else may but not I.

In Him

Bill

The error is your own.
Try dealing with 2 Thessalonians 2:10 sometime. What I mean is....
stop right now, and do a super short word for word commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2:10 in the KJV. If you can do this without altering the text and the meaning of the words taken from a basic English dictionary to defend how your belief in Calvinism works in light of this verse, then the truth should side with you. But... I know you will not be able to do this. It is impossible. This verse (among many) simply does not support Calvinism in the slightest but it refutes it.
 
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I believe Romans 3:10-12 is referring to the heathen or Gentiles from Psalms 14:1-3. Romans 3:10-12 is not a blanket statement rule saying that a person could not change their own direction by choosing God. This merely is showing how the Gentiles did not generally seek after God. We see this in the Old Testament. Granted, this was not always the case, because Ruth, Rahab, and the Ninevites came to God. But they were the exception or the few. Read in this light or way, the passage makes more sense in light of what we read in other parts of the Bible. For why would God try to reason with Cain in doing good if Cain was reprobate and unelected? How were the Ninevites able to avert the wrath of God's judgment by their choosing to repent and forsake their evil ways if God decreed their judgment to damnation? You are simply reading a Bible with rose colored Calvinistic glasses.

Good Day,

Well thanks for sharing...

But if you look at the context from vs 9.

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.”

It may benefit you to have a look at Moo's work on the book of Romans (teach the text) to give you a better understanding of the interpretative insights within the book of Romans.

In Him,

Bill
 
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Edwin H. Palmer in his book, The Five Points of Calvinism (Baker Books; 1972, 1980). He writes:

"And, the Calvinist freely admits that his position is illogical, ridiculous, nonsensical, and foolish" (p. 85).
 
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