Shades of Calvinism vs. the Gospel

SPF · Jun 17, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Jonathan Edwards also said,

“The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss.

Reprobate infants are vipers of vengeance, which Jehovah will hold over hell, in the tongs of his wrath, till they turn and spit venom in his face!”

This is not exactly the kind of person I would like to be listening to.

As for sinners (before coming to Christ) being referred to as being dead. There is a point in taking an analogy or metaphor too far. When Jesus said He was a door, that does not mean He is literally a door with hinges. He is an entry way that we enter into. In fact, if Jesus is a door, then Calvinism cannot be true. For doors are opened for us to choose to enter into them or not. If Calvinism was true, then Jesus would have mentioned how he was a black hole who sucks those in whom He desires. But that is not the analogy Jesus gave us.

Well, you're welcome to cherry pick quotes from Edwards, but it's only your loss. He spoke more on grace than almost any other theologian. But his work is difficult to track at times for people without an education. Hence, arm-chair theologians such as yourself will often discard him with a cherry-pick quote that you don't like as if that therefore means 100% of everything else he said isn't worth your time. Again, your loss.

But if that's the extent you're capable of responding to everything I said, then clearly the take away here is that you're probably here more to pontificate your own views then engage in meaningful, beneficial, and edifying conversation.

Most semipelagians like yourself ignore half of Scripture to bolster your own theological label. The fact that you ignored the Scriptures wasn't missed.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 17, 2020

BBAS 64 said:
Gopod Day, BH

Well that is fine that you believe that.

Historically there were things of difference between the Puritans and the Anglican that for sure...

But theologically there-was much they would agree with:

Anglicans Online | The Thirty-Nine Articles

X. Of Free-Will.
The condition of Man after the fall of Adam is such, that he cannot turn and prepare himself, by his own natural strength and good works, to faith; and calling upon God. Wherefore we have no power to do good works pleasant and acceptable to God, without the grace of God by Christ preventing us, that we may have a good will, and working with us, when we have that good will.

IX. Of Original or Birth-Sin.
Original sin standeth not in the following of Adam, (as the Pelagians do vainly talk but it is the fault and corruption of the Nature of every man, that naturally is engendered of the offspring of Adam; whereby man is very far gone from original righteousness, and is of his own nature inclined to evil, so that the flesh lusteth always contrary to the Spirit; and therefore in every person born into this world, it deserveth God's wrath and damnation. And this infection of nature doth remain, yea in them that are regenerated; whereby the lust of the flesh, called in Greek, φρονημα σαρκος, (which some do expound the wisdom, some sensuality, some the affection, some the desire, of the flesh), is not subject to the Law of God. And although there is no condemnation for them that believe and are baptized; yet the Apostle doth confess, that concupiscence and lust hath of itself the nature of sin.

XVII. Of Predestination and Election.
Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore, they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God, be called according to God's purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God's mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity.

As the godly consideration of Predestination, and our Election in Christ, is full of sweet, pleasant, and unspeakable comfort to godly persons, and such as feel in themselves the working of the Spirit of Christ, mortifying the works of the flesh, and their earthly members, and drawing up their mind to high and heavenly things, as well because it doth greatly establish and confirm their faith of eternal Salvation to be enjoyed through Christ as because it doth fervently kindle their love towards God: So, for curious and carnal persons, lacking the Spirit of Christ, to have continually before their eyes the sentence of God's Predestination, is a most dangerous downfall, whereby the Devil doth thrust them either into desperation, or into wretchlessness of most unclean living, no less perilous than desperation.

Furthermore, we must receive God's promises in such wise, as they be generally set forth to us in Holy Scripture: and, in our doings, that Will of God is to be followed, which we have expressly declared unto us in the Word of God.

IN Him,

Bill

We are not saved by election according to the Bible. That is not where salvation starts. Read Romans 1:16. It says the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Paul says he stands on the gospel and relates it to our salvation in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Paul defines this gospel as not election by salvation, but he defines the gospel as ur believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later. There is no need to complicate things and believe the canons of Dort, etc. Just believe the Bible in what it says plainly.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 17, 2020

SPF said:
Well, you're welcome to cherry pick quotes from Edwards, but it's only your loss. He spoke more on grace than almost any other theologian. But his work is difficult to track at times for people without an education. Hence, arm-chair theologians such as yourself will often discard him with a cherry-pick quote that you don't like as if that therefore means 100% of everything else he said isn't worth your time. Again, your loss.

But if that's the extent you're capable of responding to everything I said, then clearly the take away here is that you're probably here more to pontificate your own views then engage in meaningful, beneficial, and edifying conversation.

Most semipelagians like yourself ignore half of Scripture to bolster your own theological label. The fact that you ignored the Scriptures wasn't missed.

When posts are lengthy and they are pushing a topic that I find to be silly, I honestly find it difficult to read their posts. For if a person posted a lengthy post on why they believe Flat Earth is true, would you truly read it? I know I wouldn't. This is how I view Calvinism (no offense).

As for the words of Edwards:

The words that I posted from him should be enough to tell a person that they should not be listening to such a man ever again. But if you don't see that, then that is your choice (of course).

Again, we are not saved by election. We are saved by the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation) (See: Romans 1:16).

The gospel is defined for us as our believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later for our salvation (See: 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Any other gospel besides the one here in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is another gospel.

BBAS 64 · Jun 17, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
The seed is the Word of God according to Luke 8:11.
The soil is the heart of a person by their own free will choice.
The soil in rocky ground were those who believed for a while as mentioned in Luke 8:13 and they fell away because of temptation and not because God forced them to fall away because they were made that way. Rocky soil can be fixed. Just as the condition of the heart can be fixed.

Good Day, BH

Rocky soil does not fix it's self surely no farmer would ever affirm that.

Yes! God does fix the condition of the heart ( by removing and replacing)that is the wonderful nature of the NT and God's work of Grace.

In Him,

Bill

SPF · Jun 17, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Again, we are not saved by election. We are saved by the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation) (See: Romans 1:16)...The gospel is defined for us as our believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later for our salvation (See: 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Any other gospel besides the one here in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is another gospel.

I don't know anyone who actually says we are saved by election. That sounds a bit like an uneducated straw-man.

Bible Highlighter said:
When posts are lengthy and they are pushing a topic that I find to be silly, I honestly find it difficult to read their posts.

I find this more telling about you than anything else. I was under the impression that you started this topic to discuss Calvinism. So I'm not sure why you started this topic if you think it's silly and not worth engaging on.

Also, I'm not actually a Calvinist at all. I find it very interesting that you chose to ignore the passages that I posted and commented on. They're Scripture. They're also fairly clear and straightforward. But again, as a Semipelagian, I'm not surprised you plug your ears and shy away from difficult passages that don't necessarily align with your narrow theological framework. But again, that's to your loss.

The real question as I see it is whether or not we, as people are are Biblically described as being born dead in trespasses, by nature children of wrath, as incapable of actually choosing Christ without the Father first calling us, and then that Salvation comes entirely, 100% to us by grace, through faith, without any ability for us to boast, because our works play no part in Salvation... The real question is whether or not the Bible teaches that we have the capacity to choose Christ.

How do you incorporate the passages that I referenced into your model?

Bible Highlighter · Jun 17, 2020

SPF said:
I don't know anyone who actually says we are saved by election. That sounds a bit like an uneducated straw-man.

Then you do not agree with Unconditional Election?
This is what many Calvinists have espoused even in this thread.
Where do you see the start of salvation for the believer personally?
Do you see salvation as something happening to a person by no power of their choice involved? You already went on about how men were dead (Implying that man is not able to respond).

You said:
I find this more telling about you than anything else. I was under the impression that you started this topic to discuss Calvinism. So I'm not sure why you started this topic if you think it's silly and not worth engaging on.

I am more than happy in discussing the topic if points are made concisely and they are kept short; But lengthy posts on a belief that I consider to be on the same level as the flat earth theory is not something I want to spend too much time on wasting. I am busy with other things, and it is apparent to those who read the Bible plainly that such a belief does not simply exist. Only Romans 9 sounds like Calvinism, and that is explained by reading the context.

Also, I'm not actually a Calvinist at all.

Then why talk of sinners as being spiritually dead as if to imply they cannot respond?

I find it very interesting that you chose to ignore the passages that I posted and commented on. They're Scripture. They're also fairly clear and straightforward. But again, as a Semipelagian, I'm not surprised you plug your ears and shy away from difficult passages that don't necessarily align with your narrow theological framework. But again, that's to your loss.

You do not know me or my experience on this topic. I used to believe in Total Depravity. In fact, I used to thrown down a long list supposedly supporting this point in Calvinism, but after a deeper examination of such an unbiblical theological framework (i.e. TULIP), I have come to the light that these verses for Total Depravity were being read from a slanted point of view or with biased thoughts upon such verses. There are verses that are against Total Depravity like Deuteronomy 30:19, Matthew 23:37, 2 Peter 3:9, Romans 10:21, etc.

You said:
The real question as I see it is whether or not we, as people are are Biblically described as being born dead in trespasses, by nature children of wrath, as incapable of actually choosing Christ without the Father first calling us, and then that Salvation comes entirely, 100% to us by grace, through faith, without any ability for us to boast, because our works play no part in Salvation... The real question is whether or not the Bible teaches that we have the capacity to choose Christ.

How do you incorporate the passages that I referenced into your model?

Having a nature does not mean we cannot choose contrary to that nature. If this was not the case, then no unbeliever could ever do an act of good or charity. If they can choose what is good being an unbeliever, then they can choose Christ (Who is good). When you read John 6:44 about nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them, you also have to read verse 45 that follows that says, “Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” (John 6:45). Jesus spoke and did everything that the Father commanded. So when we read Scripture, we hear the words of God (or the words of the Father). He that hears the words of Scripture, and learns by those words will then be drawn by the Father. So it is conditional, and not unconditional. If a person studies God's Word (the Bible), and they truly seek to obey it and learn of God's ways, then God the Father will truly draw them to Jesus.

As for statement that suggests that works do not play a part in salvation:

Well, most misunderstand Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:3-5. First, Paul was fighting against Circumcision Salvationism (Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:15, 1 Corinthians 7:18-19, Romans 2:28-29, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Acts of the Apostles 21:21. Also see: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Circumcision Salvation was a heresy at the time that said that you had to be circumcised to be initially saved. If someone believes this, they are making the Law of Moses (the 613 laws given to Israel in the Old Covenant) the basis for their salvation and not God's grace through faith in Christ. In other words, such a person would be trying to be saved by “Works ALONE Salvationism” that did not include God's grace through faith in Jesus for their initial an foundational salvation. Paul was NOT referring to the commands of Jesus and His followers under the New Covenant (or New Testament).

Second, Paul was referring to the 1st step or stage (or the 1st work of God) in the salvation process in Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:3-5, as well. For Paul mentions elsewhere the necessity for holiness or works for salvation in other verses (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 8:13, Titus 1:16, Titus 2:11-12, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Timothy 6:3-4, 1 Corinthians 16:22). Sanctification is the 2nd work of God (as a part of salvation) that we cannot boast in ourselves in doing. God does the good work through us.

Three, Jesus says that believing on Him (who He has sent) is a work of God (John 6:29). So faith is a work of God that we must partake of. God is not going to believe for us and neither is he going to force faith upon us. For Hebrews 11 says that without faith, it is impossible to please God. This shows that faith is something that is in our court to act upon.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 17, 2020

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, BH

Rocky soil does not fix it's self surely no farmer would ever affirm that.

Yes! God does fix the condition of the heart ( by removing and replacing)that is the wonderful nature of the NT and God's work of Grace.

In Him,

Bill

The soil condition represents our hearts.
We can surely change the soil, just as we can change our hearts.

How To Remove Rocks From Soil Easily?

How to Amend Rocky Soil | Troy-Bilt | Troy-Bilt US

BBAS 64 · Jun 17, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
The soil condition represents our hearts.
We can surely change the soil, just as we can change our hearts.

How To Remove Rocks From Soil Easily?

How to Amend Rocky Soil | Troy-Bilt | Troy-Bilt US

Good Day,

Um the soil is not doing the work.... the work is external by an other power.

God changes hearts...

I suppose you believe a tiger can change it's strips as well, or that a lion can eat grass.

In Him,

Bill

SPF · Jun 17, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I am more than happy in discussing the topic if points are made concisely and they are kept short; But lengthy posts on a belief that I consider to be on the same level as the flat earth theory is not something I want to spend too much time on wasting

Ok, so that applies to others, but not you, right? My initial entry to this discussion, excluding the Biblical quotes was 679 words. Your response here, excluding the quotes, was 688 words long.

Again, if you don't want to actually talk to people about this topic, and not something you want to spend much time on, I recommend you not actually creating a topic on something you don't want to spend much time on.

While you get hungup on labels, I don't. While you engage in a lot of theological wizardry to make the texts conform to your belief, I prefer a much more simple approach and allow the Scripture to speak for itself.

Everyone needs to have a theology on predestination. Why? Because Paul literally uses the word in his letters. He believes in it, he teaches it. So what do we do with it? I think there is a clear tension in Scripture that a lot of people deal with poorly. Bible Highlighter is a clear example of a semipelagian that deals with this poorly. We need to be honest to what Scripture teaches, and not try to force it to say something when it doesn't.

For example, Paul is clear in Ephesians that before coming to Christ, we are dead in our sins. We are by nature children of wrath. He uses the strong language of death intentionally and purposefully, and literally. To ignore it or try to wish it away is just dishonest.

Paul is very clear that Salvation comes by grace, through faith, and not by works. This is also very clear. He goes on to really drill the point by making it clear that we have nothing to boast about, because works play no part. It's very simple. If works played any part in our Salvation, then we would have something to boast about - there's no avoiding that. Try. You can't. if I have any part in my Salvation, then I can boast about that. But Paul is clear that we cannot boast because Salvation is entirely by grace, through faith.

I think both the Calvinism camp and the Semipelagian camp have some good insights, but both fall short and both don't do all of Scripture justice. Both are guilty of isegesis, and both are guilty of ignoring Scriptures that are problematic to their position, or if they don't ignore them, they are guilty of just poor hermeneutics.

Fact is that we are responsible for our choices this side of heaven. Fact is that we are all born separated from God, all needing forgiveness of sins. Fact is that the Salvation we need comes through, and only through the atoning work of Christ on the cross.

PS - The theory that the KJV of the Bible is the only valid English translation is actually a little more laughable than flat-earth theory.

BBAS 64 · Jun 17, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
We are not saved by election according to the Bible. That is not where salvation starts. Read Romans 1:16. It says the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Paul says he stands on the gospel and relates it to our salvation in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Paul defines this gospel as not election by salvation, but he defines the gospel as ur believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later. There is no need to complicate things and believe the canons of Dort, etc. Just believe the Bible in what it says plainly.

Good Day, BH

No issue there...

The Gospel is the mean that God has ordained to Save sinful men..

Seeing it is His means (power) thus it is the sole sufficient effective cause as to why any human is saved.

“By grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8).

By Grace Alone Through Faith Alone

snip....

It should have been clear from reading Ephesians 2:1–7 that the Lord owes us nothing but justice and wrath. (Moreover, this is taught throughout the Bible: Gen. 6:5–7; Deut. 7:6–11; Ps. 51:4; Rom. 1:18–3:20; James 2:10–11). But in case we missed it, Paul in Ephesians 2:8–10 tells us one more time that we bring nothing with us to our redemption, and that any good works we perform are not the ground of our status before God but result from us having been chosen and gifted with salvation: “By grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). Grace, by definition, excludes the slightest hint that human merit contributes to our righteous standing before the most holy and perfect Creator, and faith, which admits our inability to help ourselves and rests wholly on another for salvation, confirms that our works have no power to atone for our wickedness. John Calvin writes, “If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendations, it follows that salvation does not come from us.”

In Him,

Bill

zoidar · Jun 17, 2020

BBAS 64 said:
“By grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8).

Hi Bill,

If a man asks God for forgiveness and God forgives him and gives the man a new birth by the Holy Spirit. Was this man then saved by himself or was it a gift of God?

helmut · Jun 17, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Then again, do not take my word for what I have stated. Do your own homework with God's Word and check to see whether these things be so or not.

I never said that I see you as my teacher, I see you as a fellow Christian, and hopefully we can learn from each other.

helmut · Jun 17, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Saying that Calvinism is the gospel is not correct (in my view). I believe this is another gospel. Read 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 to get a definition for the real gospel please.

The Gospel has many facets, if you chose a passage in the Bible that tells the Gospel, and than reduce the Gospel to that passage, you will lose some facets.
In Romans 10:9 we are told that we will be saved if we confess Jesus as LORD (YHWH), in 1.Tim 2:5 we are told that Jesus is a man. Romans 10:9-13 contain the Gospel, 1.Timothy 2:3-6 contains the Gospel, and yes, 1.Cor 15:1-4 contain the Gospel. But to say that we can grasp the whole Gospel by just considering one passage is naive. And I don't claim that the three passages mentioned contain all aspects of the Gospel, there is more.

I disagree with Calvinism (and Arminianism, btw.), but I also disagree with your kind of arguing.

Tra Phull · Jun 17, 2020

Calvinism, Flat Earthism, Cessationism, KJ-onlyism...

Ah'm gon puke

Tra Phull · Jun 17, 2020

Something for Calvibots to consider - if God is sovereign, did He predestinate me to be Arminian?

Bible Highlighter · Jun 17, 2020

helmut said:
The Gospel has many facets, if you chose a passage in the Bible that tells the Gospel, and than reduce the Gospel to that passage, you will lose some facets.
In Romans 10:9 we are told that we will be saved if we confess Jesus as LORD (YHWH), in 1.Tim 2:5 we are told that Jesus is a man. Romans 10:9-13 contain the Gospel, 1.Timothy 2:3-6 contains the Gospel, and yes, 1.Cor 15:1-4 contain the Gospel. But to say that we can grasp the whole Gospel by just considering one passage is naive. And I don't claim that the three passages mentioned contain all aspects of the Gospel, there is more.

We cannot make the Bible say something it doesn't. The gospel is not fully defined in Romans 10:9-13. Yes, Romans 10:9 mentions only in part the gospel referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (By referring to believing in the resurrection). But there is no mention of the death and burial (with words saying.... “Hey, this is the gospel.”). Nowhere does Romans 10:9-13 give us a full definition of the gospel like in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. I see calling upon the name of the Lord and confessing with our mouth the “Lord Jesus” as another aspect or way to be saved by God's grace before the gospel is fully revealed to a person or it may be used in harmony with the gospel. For example: Not everyone may have time to accept Jesus the same way. A person on their deathbed who is about to die may not have time to hear the gospel, and they need to just believe in Jesus as their Savior to be saved before they slip away into death. Jesus says to whom much is given, much is required. But if the gospel is revealed to a person in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, they cannot reject that truth; If they do, they are preaching another gospel. Nowhere does the Bible say at any point that the gospel is calling upon the name of the Lord. Please quote the exact words in Scripture that says something like: “The gospel I preach unto you now is that if you call upon the name of the Lord and confess with your mouth “Lord Jesus” you shall be saved.” If Paul said these words, I would agree with you. But he doesn't. You are imagining that he said something like this. Just because there are other actions in being saved by God's grace in addition to the gospel does not mean that these other things are the gospel. We cannot go beyond what is written.

As for 1 Timothy 2:3-6 being another definition of the gospel:

Again, I disagree. No words state anything like this:

“The gospel I declare unto you is also this: there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”

Paul never said that, or anything like it here.

Side Note:

Yes, I am aware that the “gospel of the kingdom” is believing in the Messiah as the Savior before the cross. But once Paul revealed the full gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, that is now our gospel. The gospel today is believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later for our salvation. That is the gospel. Nothing more, and nothing less. Yes, other things we can do can play a part in our initial salvation involving God's grace like calling upon the name of the Lord (seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him), and in confessing with your mouth the “Lord Jesus.” But again, these other actions are not called as being a part of the gospel. If you believe otherwise, you need to quote the exact words in Scripture that make you believe so.

You said:
I disagree with Calvinism (and Arminianism, btw.), but I also disagree with your kind of arguing.

So you believe in Molinism, or something else?
I also do not adhere to all the points in Arminianism.

Here are the Original 5 Articles (or Points) of Traditional Arminianism:

Conditional Election.
Unlimited Atonement.
Total Depravity.
Prevenient Grace.
Conditional Preservation of the Saints.

Five Articles of Remonstrance - Wikipedia

I believe in something close to this.

Here are my points (that are similar to Arminianism):

#1. Conditional Election (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).
#2. Conditional Salvation.
#3. Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority; A.K.A. Free Will Involving One’s Choice Towards the Lord, Grace, or Salvation (Note: Christ draws all men unto Himself, and God is not willing that any should perish.) (Note: All men are given an opportunity or opportunities by God to understand the "Offer of the Love of the Truth" so that they are able to receive it, or reject it of their own free will. - See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10.).
#4. Provisional Majority Atonement (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).
#5. Partial Depravity.

Note: My Arminian influenced points on my list above when rearranged spells CCUPP.

The differences in my points are:

(a) I believe in Partial Depravity, and not Total Depravity.

(b) I believe in Conditional Salvation, and not Conditional Preservation of the Saints. I do not believe God forces us against our own will to do what He wants. We need to be faithful (and it is not God who needs to be faithful on our behalf) (Yes, God can protect us, chastise us, etc., but we have to do our part first to make that so) (We are not puppets).

(c) I believe in Majority Atonement and not Unlimited Atonement. I believe that the sacrifice of Christ's atonement is for the majority of the world, and that it is a free will offer for a person to accept as a gift or to reject it of their own choosing, but God has excluded those who worship the beast in the future from the Lamb's book of life (See: Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8) (Note: While I am sure they had a free will choice to accept Christ, they were never going to do that and God knew that fact; They would do something that could never be forgiven).

(d) Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority and not Prevenient Grace. They are similar but not exactly the same. My view takes into account that God desires all men to be saved, and it also takes into account Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8. Prevenient Grace does not also clarify that God may not make multiple attempts to try and save a person, as well.

Then again, do not take my word for what I have stated. Do your own homework with God's Word and check to see whether these things be so or not.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 17, 2020

Tra Phull said:
Calvinism, Flat Earthism, Cessationism, KJ-onlyism...

Ah'm gon puke

Everyone has an “ism." If one is not for Calvinism, then they are more Arminianism. If one is not for Cessationism, they are for Continuationism. If one is not for KJV-Onlyism, then they are OAO (Original Autograph Only-ism).

Bible Highlighter · Jun 17, 2020

helmut said:
I never said that I see you as my teacher, I see you as a fellow Christian, and hopefully we can learn from each other.

I never said that I was your teacher. I merely suggested for you to check Scripture on whether those things be so or not.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 17, 2020

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day,

Um the soil is not doing the work.... the work is external by an other power.

The Parable places the responsibility on the person or individual if you were to read the Parable again. Luke 8:13 says that the person believed for a while. Verse 12 (John 8:12) refers to this kind of belief as one being saved. So the parable is talking about conditional salvation. Verse 13 says that those on stony ground fell away because of temptation and not because they were not zapped by God with a special change from the beginning. The plant began to grow in the soil (suggesting they had life, i.e. eternal life).

You said:
God changes hearts...

Yes, He does, but this is under our free will cooperation.

You said:
I suppose you believe a tiger can change it's strips as well, or that a lion can eat grass.

In Him,

Bill

Here is a quote from a great article that addresses this:

“Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil (Jeremiah 13:23)

Jeremiah 2::32 asks ”Can a maid forget her ornaments, or a bride her attire? Well, no – what bride would forget her wedding attire? That is simply out of the question, so the answer should then be ”NO WAY” and yet we read on:

”—yet my people have forgotten me days without number”.

So the answer is YES after all. Jeremiah 13:23 is a question and not a statement, and it’s like God wants to show Israel how difficult it is for people who are accustomed to do evil and who have hardened their hearts, to change their behavior. But we can be delivered from our sins and spots. We must choose to come to God so he can change us and help us to change our bad habits. If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. What else does Jeremiah 13 tell us? We can read about a group of evil people who refuses to obey God, which is very disturbing to him. Due to their rebellion and their refusal to listen and obey, God will punish them. We can read about a people who have forgotten about God and trusted in FALSEHOOD. Does God want his chosen people to trust in falsehood? Clearly not. We can read that it’s due to their wickedness that God will put them to open shame. It’s due to their own actions which they themselves are responsible for, because God certainly didn’t cause them to perform adulteries, neighings, lewdness of whoredom and other abominations that we can read about. God is mighty upset with his people for constantly acting against his will. See for yourself:

10This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.11For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

16Give glory to the LORD your God, before he cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, and make it gross darkness. 17But if ye will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride; and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the LORD’s flock is carried away captive.

22And if thou say in thine heart, Wherefore come these things upon me? For the greatness of thine iniquity are thy skirts discovered, and thy heels made bare.

23Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

24Therefore will I scatter them as the stubble that passeth away by the wind of the wilderness. 25This is thy lot, the portion of thy measures from me, saith the LORD; because thou hast forgotten me, and trusted in falsehood. 26Therefore will I discover thy skirts upon thy face, that thy shame may appear. 27I have seen thine adulteries, and thy neighings, the lewdness of thy whoredom, and thine abominations on the hills in the fields. Woe unto thee, O Jerusalem! wilt thou not be made clean? when shall it once be?

We are told we can keep ourselves unspotted from the world

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Why would God take the time and give so many warning to Israel in Jeremiah (and elsewhere) not to do evil if He knew they were destined to do evil because their nature was evil? A change requires serious effort because of being accustomed to do evil. Jeremiah tells the people to correct their behavior. How can man correct his behavior if he can’t change it and doesn’t have a choice? Man defiles himself by sinning.

Mark 7:20And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.21For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,22Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:23All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Rom. 2:13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )”

Article Source:
Jer. 13:23 leopard spots – Bjorkbloggen

Mark Quayle · Jun 17, 2020

helmut said:
Now you are getting vague. I heard from Lutherans sentences like "you cannot decide for Christ out of your own decision, God has to revive you in order ti respond to His call."

The question is whether "remove credit and glory from Man" means that the decision of man is rather just a automatic response to what God has planned beforehand. I see biblical references to people God wants to save (he wants all people to be saved, 1.Tim 2:4) but resist salvation.

It is not your decision that saves you, but it may be your decision that will get you into Hell.

One thing when I looked into Calvin's instruction is: Calvinism is not always the same as Calvinism. And AFAIK there exist "shades" of Calvinism that differ in the degree of precision when speaking about predestination.

Another question is whether the Glory of God will be increased or diminished by a teaching that let God cause a person to decide go to Hell. Obviously, Luther disagreed with Calvin on this point.

In cold logic, where the law of Causality rules, God being First Cause, of course, everything else is an effect. I don't find the Bible disagreeing with that at all. I don't like to claim "double predestination", but when Jesus says, "Such things must come, but woe to one by whom it comes." I think he is referring to something of the principle that God indeed did plan for sin to come and as a result, some must perish. I don't think he created us in order that some will perish, but he did create us, knowing, indeed planning, that some must perish in order for his justice, mercy and glory to be shown. This by no means absolves anyone of the guilt of their sinful decisions.

You say, "It is not your decision that saves you, but it may be your decision that will get you into Hell." According to John 3:18 one is already condemned if they simply fail to believe. It is not the result of their decision. Their decision is the result of their slavery to sin. But I get your point, I think, and I agree: God doesn't remove goodness or faith from them in order for them to reject him, while for those chosen he installs his Spirit, giving salvific faith, regenerating those he chose, so that their hearts desire him. God doesn't actively do something to an otherwise neutral heart for the ultimately condemned, the way he does for the otherwise corrupt heart of those he chose to save.

Shades of Calvinism vs. the Gospel

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Ecumenical Loose Canon

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

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