THE SABBATH TRUTH!

Andre_b · Jun 15, 2020

klutedavid said:
I agree with you on that. But you interpret phrases such as 'the law' which contradicts the context.I don't ignore the statement about the Sabbath in the scripture.

None of the following have anything to do with loving God.

I am not circumcised, so I am not under the law.
I will not sacrifice an oxen for my sin.
I disregard the health laws.
I ignore the civil law.
I ignore all of the moral law also.
I will not go to the temple.
I disregard the Levite priests and the Pharisees.

See how thorough I am in annulling the old covenant.
I only follow the law of Christ.

The law of Christ you say?

Yes, that's right.If you quote John and his reference to the commandments. Be sure to observe the context of one John and quote.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

1 John 4:21
And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.

John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

Pretty good at quoting within the context of 1 John.You are either under the law or you are not under the law. If you believe that transgressing any law means, separation from Jesus, then you are under the law. The law must be obeyed!I already mentioned I am under the law of Christ, the law of Liberty.Love fulfills the law, love is the foundation of all law.

Believe me when I say, not coveting your neighbors oxen, has nothing to with love. You only partly quoted that verse so I will ignore the rest.

Yes I know you use your own theology of love and ignore how God is Christ and doesn't change, yet you change all his commandments with your own, by finding a word commandment in the New Testament or love, then you make your own rules about keeping one and not the other based on what you want, you keep going in circles. We already explained the verses you gave, THEY ARE NOT THE ONLY COMMANDMENTS TO KEEP, THEY ARE additional ONES. You find the word commandment and say "see I keep this commandment" yet ignore the others because YOU CLAIM they are only part of the old. You are calling Jesus a liar then since he taught us how to behave.

When you keep ANY LAW OR COMMANDMENT you you are putting yourself under the law. Any law or commandment you follow makes you a hypocrite because you specifically quoted that we are under grace and not under the law. So stop quoting commandments you keep because that is being hypocritical.

Luke 23:56 says ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT. Yet you ADDED that it's not part of the new covenant yet it was DONE AFTER THE NEW COVENANT AND WAS NEVER REBUKED AND ACTUALLY CALLED THE COMMANDMENT.

The law of liberty is the Ten Commandments because no where in the Ten Commandments does it give any penalty for breaking them. Doing them makes you free and in liberty. If everyone would do this then we would all be free and in liberty. But since sin hence breaking the commandments we are no longer in liberty.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 16, 2020

Cribstyl said:
Well dear friend, "Welcome to Club-share-His Word", because that's what this forum is all about You do always have more to say than His word. No need to cite 5 different books of the bible and add links to your extensive posts, when explaining 1 verse can clarify an issue.

If I did not post scripture I would not LoveGodsWord

. One verse can be taken out of context while many verses on the same subject matter (topical bible study) can provide clarity on subject matter and interpretation of the scriptures. For example you and your friend use ROMANS 7:6 as a single scripture divorced from it's context to try and teach that God's 10 commandments are abolished when JESUS, the Apostles, and prophets and the rest of the bible teach that God's 10 commandments are not abolished as shown in post # 420 and the links provided.

Cribstyl said:
What does the scriptures say is abolished? Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

The laws of commandments CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES (emphasis in red above is mine). God's 10 Commandments are NOT contained in ORDINANCES. Your mixing up the shadow laws from the Mosiac book of the law with Gods' 10 commandmetns which are the standard of right and wrong, good and evil and sin and righteousness in the new covenant *ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4.

EPHESIANS 2:15 .."law of commandments contained in ORDINANCES" G1378. δόγμα dŏgma, dog´-mah; from the base of 1380; a CIVIL, CEREMONIAL OR ECCLESIASTICAL law:—decree, ordinance (GREEK NEW TESTAMENT DICTIONARY).

Use of scripture applied to ordinance is never applied to God's 10 commandments..

NAIVES TOPICAL BIBLE
ORDINANCE. A decree, Ex. 12:14, 24, 43; 13:10; 15:25; Num. 9:14; 10:8; 15:15; 18:8; Isa. 24:5; Mal. 4:4; Rom. 13:2; 1 Pet. 2:13. Insufficiency of, For Salvation: Isa. 1:10–17; Gal. 5:6; Gal. 6:15; Eph. 2:15; Col. 2:14, 20–23; Heb. 9:1, 8–10

Cribstyl said:
LGW, we should examine what scriptures say is abolished, but later. I cant handle multiple issues at one time, so let's make that our next dialog after Romans 7:6.

Perhaps you can take your time and prayerfully read the posts and scriptures shared with you dear friend. There is no hurry for you to read them. Perhaps you will get a blessing instead of ignoring the scriptures shared only in love with you as a help. Receive Gods' correction and be blessed. Ignoring God's word does not make it disappear.

Cribstyl said:
Allow me to post between your words ( in orange below) Again, that's you adding to the word of God. Rom 7:6 does not say "released from the penalty of God's law" it says "released from God's law". You can't handle the truth, so you changed Paul's narrative.

Nonsense, you were posted the context to the scripture you cherry picked out of context from ROMANS 7:5 and ROMANS 6:1-23 that disagrees with your interpretation of a single scripture in ROMANS 7:6 trying to claim that God's 10 commandments are abolished as well as the writings of JESUS and the Apostles and most of the new testament scriptures that disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures. What penalty do you think the law imposes for sin (breaking it)? Yep WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH *ROMANS 6:23. There has no narrative changed my side as I have not added anything into the scriptures that are not already there. I have simply pointed out what your disregarding as shown below and in other scriptures of context and same subject matter within the new testament that disagree with your interpretation of ROMANS 7:6 shown already in the linked posts...

ROMANS 7:5-7 [5], FOR WHEN WE WERE IN THE FLESH, THE MOTIONS OF SINS, WHICH WERE BY THE LAW, DID WORK IN OUR MEMBERS TO BRING FORTH FRUIT TO DEATH. [6], But now we are delivered from the law (penalty is death), that being dead WHEREIN WE WERE HELD (SIN); THAT WE SHOULD SERVE IN NEWNESS OF SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE OLDNESS OF THE LETTER. [7], WHAT SHALL WE SAY THEN? IS THE LAW SIN? GOD FORBID. NO, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN, BUT BY THE LAW: FOR I HAD NOT KNOWN LUST, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID, YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

The purpose of God's law (10 commandments) only gives us a knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7.

Cribstyl said:
I agree that Rom 6 is relative to Rom 7 but after reading also Rom 5 it's all relative. If context is based on circumstances, Rom 6 talks about sin 18 times and posted below is the only 2 mentions of the law. It's says we're not under the law.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (Rom 7 references the law 21 times). My argument is Rom 7: 1-6 is a complete context.

There is no chapters in the Old and new testament scriptures. These were added in by the translators. Context of ROMANS 7 is ROMANS 2-8 where PAUL is teaching the believers that ALL both JEW and GENTILE have all broken God's law (10 commandments) and stand guilty before God of sin ROMANS 3:9-19 (from ROMANS 2:1-29) and the wages of sin (breaking Gods' Law) is death *ROMANS 6:23. No one is "UNDER THE LAW" if they have repented and confessed their sins and by faith received God's grace and forgiveness. We are only "UNDER THE LAW" according to the scriptures if we stand guilty before God of breaking the law *ROMANS 3:19. ROMANS 7:6 is being released from sin and sins penalty to be free to walk in God's Spirit and not in the flesh ROMANS 7:6; ROMANS 8:1-4; Walking in God's Spirit ESTABLISHES the law in those who have faith in God's Word *ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 8:1-4. Those who walk in God's Spirit do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh *GALATIANS 5:16 because they have been born again to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12 and love is the fulfilling of God's law *ROMANS 13:8-10 to those who have received God's grace through faith and walk in God's Spirit to love. Your interpretation of ROMANS 7:6 is not biblical.

Sorry dear friend God's Word disagrees with you.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear.

Hope this is helpful (take some time to prayerfully read what is shared with you dear friend)

HARK! · Jun 16, 2020

klutedavid said:
The apostles did not understand the new covenant or even that Jesus would rise from the tomb. They obeyed the law for some time after Jesus rose.

They were obedient to the Torah long after Yahshua ascended, and deep into their ministries. For that matter, I see no evidence that they stopped being obedient to YHWH's perfect Torah.

HARK! · Jun 16, 2020

Cribstyl said:
See what I'm talking about???.... These are some strong words above in Red, and I disagree with you.

Do you have any proof to support your opinion. You do realize that the onus of proof is on the person who makes the positive assertion; no?

Here's how it works:

Someone makes an extraordinary claim about scripture, and says, "believe me; it's in there."

Someone rejects the claim, and says, "no it's not."

The the burden of proof rests on the person who made the positive claim, that it's there.

If it's there; then he should be able to show it; and prove that it's there.

I hope this helps.

HARK! · Jun 16, 2020

Cribstyl said:
Your apparent agenda is to teach us that we ARE under the ten commandments.

"Under the law"

Paul is the only one in the Bible who uses this phrase.

It's found 11 times in his writings.

Romans 3:19
(CLV) Ro 3:19
Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,

Let's look at this very carefully. The law speaks to those under the law.

The law speaks so that every mouth in the entire world may become subject to YHWH's judgement.

As all are subject to YHWH's verdict; it appears that we have two groups here. One group is already subject to YHWH's judgement. The other would not be subject to YHWH's judgement in absence of his Torah.

The preceding verse serves to further define the behavior of those who are under the law:

(CLV) Ro 3:18
There is not fear of God in front of their eyes.

Why would we fear our loving Abba?

(CLV) Ex 20:20
Then Moses said to the people: Do not fear, for in order to probe you the One, Elohim has come, and in order that the fear of Him should come over your faces, that you may not sin.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

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(CLV) Ro 6:14
For Sin shall not be lording it over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.

Which law?

Paul mentions at least 8 of them in this letter:

The Law of Faith (Ch 3)
A Different Law (Ch 7)
The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)
The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)
God's Law (Ch 7)
The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)
The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)
The Law of Righteousness (Ch 9)

I suppose that if sin is lording over you; then you are under The Law of Sin.

(CLV) Ro 6:15
What then? Should we be sinning, seeing that we are not under law, but under grace? May it not be coming to that!

Paul is telling us in no uncertain terms that we may not sin.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

(CLV) Ro 7:7
What, then, shall we declare? That the law is sin? May it not be coming to that! But sin I knew not except through law. For besides, I had not been aware of coveting except the law said, "You shall not be coveting."

Surely The Law of Sin doesn't prohibit coveting.

The Law of YHWH does.
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(CLV) 1Co 9:20
And I became to the Jews as a Jew, that I should be gaining Jews; to those under (υπο) law (νομονas) under (υπο)law (νομονas) (not being myself under (υπο) law (νομονas) ), that I should be gaining those under (υπο) law (νομονas) ;

The Judaeans we're well familiar with YHWH's Law (Torah), but they were also practicing Works of Law.

I don't see "Works of Law" mentioned in the Torah. I don't see any mention of it by Yahshua. Where is Paul getting this?

It is mentioned 1 time in Romans and 6 times in Galatians.

It is also mentioned in the Qumran Scrolls.

Q394 (4QMMTa) 4QHalakhic Letter
Dead Sea Scrolls Project: 4QMMT

Definition of halacha
: the body of Jewish law supplementing the scriptural law and forming especially the legal part of the Talmud
Definition of HALACHA

Yahshua rebuked putting the traditions of men over the Torah.

(CLV) 1Co 9:21
to those without law as without law (not being without God's law, but legally (εννομος) Christ's), that I should be gaining those without law.

"Not being without," is a double negative. Paul is with YHWH's Law.

(CLV) 1Co 9:22
I became as weak to the weak, that I should be gaining the weak. To all have I become all, that I should undoubtedly be saving some.

Apart from the Judaeans the nations didn't even have the Torah
That said, just a few verses prior in this letter; Paul makes mention of the Torah:

Some misunderstand this passage.Paul was not a lawless crowd pleaser.

(CLV) Ga 1:10
For, at present, am I persuading men or God? Or am I seeking to please men? If I still pleased men, I were not a slave of Christ.

Acts 17:22-31 is an example of how Paul would put this behavior into practice.

(CLV) 1Co 9:
9 For in the law of Moses it is written: "You shall not muzzle the threshing ox.Not for oxen is the care of God!" 10 Or is He undoubtedly saying it because of us? Because of us, for it was written that the plower ought to be plowing in expectation, and the thresher to partake of his expectation."

HE'S SAYING THAT THE TORAH WAS WRITTEN BECAUSE OF US?

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

==================================================

(CLV) Ga 3:19
What, then, is the law? On behalf of transgressions was it added, until the Seed should come to Whom He has promised, being prescribed through messengers in the hand of a mediator.

What law was added to what? Transgressions of what? Abraham had the law. The penal code for the land of Israel was added. Levitical priesthood was added. After the Seed (Yahshua) came; the Judaeans were exiled from the land, for rejecting YHWH's word in the flesh. The High Priesthood was transferred to Yahshua; as it is written.

(CLV) Ga 3:20
Now there is no Mediator of one. Yet God is One.

(CLV) Ga 3:21
Is the law, then, against the promises of God? May it not be coming to that! For if a law were given that is |able to vivify, really, righteousness were out of law.

YHWH's law is not against grace.

(CLV) Ga 3:22
But the scripture locks up all together under sin,

...because all have sinned.

The Law of Sin

that the promise out of Jesus Christ's faith may be given to those who are believing.

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

Obedience to YHWH's Law is the fruit of faith.

(CLV) Ga 3:23
Now before the coming of faith we were garrisoned under law, being locked together for the faith about to be revealed.

If we actually believe Yahshua; we will follow his example of obedience.

(CLV) Ja 2:14
What is the benefit, my brethren, if anyone should be saying he has faith, yet may have no works? That faith can not save him.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected
==================================================

(CLV) Ga 4:4
Now when the full time came, God delegates His Son, come of a woman, come under law,

(CLV) Ga 4:5
that He should be reclaiming those under law, that we may be getting the place of a son.

Reclaiming them from what?

Paul makes it clear that those who are under the law, are those who have broken the law:

(CLV) Ro 1:5
through Whom we obtained grace and apostleship for faith-obedience among all the nations, for His name's sake,

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
==================================================
(CLV) Ga 4:21
Tell me, you who want to be under law, are you not hearing the law?

Paul is asking why you would want to sin, knowing what YHWH's judgements will be.

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
==================================================

(CLV) Ga 5:18
Now, if you are led by spirit, you are not still under law.

How can you break YHWH's laws being led by the spirit?

Let's look at this verse in a little more context.

(CLV) Ga 5:16
Now I am saying, Walk in spirit, and you should under no circumstances be consummating the lust of the flesh.

What is the lust of the flesh?

Here are some examples:

(CLV) Ga 5:19
Now apparent are the works of the flesh, which are adultery, prostitution, uncleanness, wantonness,

(CLV) Ga 5:20
idolatry, enchantment, enmities, strife, jealousies, furies, factions, dissensions, sects,

(CLV) Ga 5:21
envies, murders, drunkennesses, revelries, and the like of these, which, I am predicting to you, according as I predicted also, that those committing such things shall not be enjoying the allotment of the kingdom of God.

Yahshua set an example of how for us to behave in a way that is in the Father's will.

(CLV) Ro 8:29
that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren.

(CLV) Jn 16:7
"But I am telling you the truth. It is expedient for you that I may be coming away, for if I should not be coming away, the consoler will not be coming to you. Now if I should be gone, I will send him to you.

(CLV) Jn 16:8
And, coming, that will be exposing the world concerning sin and concerning
righteousness and concerning judging:

(CLV) Jn 16:9
concerning sin, indeed, seeing that they are not believing in Me;

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

HARK! · Jun 16, 2020

klutedavid said:
Romans 2:12
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law.

Under the law... That's very interesting.

The Greek word for under is υπo, hupo, G5259; but the word used in the verse you posted is εν, en, G1722. The word "the" isn't even there.

The KJV translates Strong's G1722 in the following manner: in (1,902x), by (163x), with (140x), among (117x), at (113x), on (62x), through (39x), miscellaneous (264x).

Interesting, it must be a miscellaneous case.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?] (Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS NT 1722: ἐν
ἐν, a preposition taking the dative after it; Hebrew בְּ; Latin in with abl.; English in, on, at, with, by, among. (Winers Grammar, § 48 a.; Buttmann, 328f (282f)) It is used:
I. Locally;
1. of place proper;
a. in the interior of some whole; within the limits of some space: ἐν γαστρί, Matthew 1:18; ἐν Βηθλημ, Matthew 2:1; ἐν τῇ πόλει, Luke 7:37; ἐν τῇ Ἰουδαία, ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ, ἐν τῷ πλοίῳ, ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, and innumerable other examples
b. in (on) the surface of a place (German auf): ἐν τῷ ὄρει, John 4:20;

Notice that Thayer's doesn't pull that miscellaneous nonsense.

It appears that someone intentionally changed the meaning of this verse.

Let's look at this verse from a literal translation:

(CLV) Ro 2:12
for whoever sinned without law, without law also shall perish, and whoever sinned in law, through law will be judged.

Well that reads differently. If you are without law, you die. This was the message from the beginning.

If you are in the law, or obedient to it, you will be judged by the law. Makes perfect sense, especially in light of the very next verse:

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

The doers of the law. I don't believe that Paul is telling us that we can make do without.

HARK! · Jun 16, 2020

klutedavid said:
They sinned without the law!

Sounds like lawlessness.

(CLV) Mt 7:23
And then shall I be avowing to them that `I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!'

klutedavid · Jun 16, 2020

HARK! said:
Under the law... That's very interesting.

The Greek word for under is υπo, hupo, G5259; but the word used in the verse you posted is εν, en, G1722. The word "the" isn't even there.

The KJV translates Strong's G1722 in the following manner: in (1,902x), by (163x), with (140x), among (117x), at (113x), on (62x), through (39x), miscellaneous (264x).

Interesting, it must be a miscellaneous case.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?] (Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS NT 1722: ἐν
ἐν, a preposition taking the dative after it; Hebrew בְּ; Latin in with abl.; English in, on, at, with, by, among. (Winers Grammar, § 48 a.; Buttmann, 328f (282f)) It is used:
I. Locally;
1. of place proper;
a. in the interior of some whole; within the limits of some space: ἐν γαστρί, Matthew 1:18; ἐν Βηθλημ, Matthew 2:1; ἐν τῇ πόλει, Luke 7:37; ἐν τῇ Ἰουδαία, ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ, ἐν τῷ πλοίῳ, ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, and innumerable other examples
b. in (on) the surface of a place (German auf): ἐν τῷ ὄρει, John 4:20;

Notice that Thayer's doesn't pull that miscellaneous nonsense.

It appears that someone intentionally changed the meaning of this verse.

Let's look at this verse from a literal translation:

(CLV) Ro 2:12
for whoever sinned without law, without law also shall perish, and whoever sinned in law, through law will be judged.

Well that reads differently. If you are without law, you die. This was the message from the beginning.

If you are in the law, or obedient to it, you will be judged by the law. Makes perfect sense, especially in light of the very next verse:

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

The doers of the law. I don't believe that Paul is telling us that we can make do without.

Use a literal translation.

Romans (2:12) Young's Literal Translation
For as many as without law did sin, without law also shall perish, and as many as did sin in law, through law shall be judged.

The sense is exactly the same. Sin is sin, whether defined by the law or not. Gentiles who never knew YHWH and never knew THE LAW, perish apart from THE LAW.

Those in the law also found guilty of course. No one seeks God, the path of peace they have never known. Their feet are quick to shed blood, e.t.c.

If you believe that not coveting an oxen, helps your faith, then by all means proceed.

klutedavid · Jun 16, 2020

HARK! said:
Sounds like lawlessness.

(CLV) Mt 7:23
And then shall I be avowing to them that `I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!'

Looks like it, sounds like it, but is not defined as walking according to the law.

HARK! · Jun 17, 2020

klutedavid said:
The sense is exactly the same.

No it's not. In, and under, mean two different things. That's why we use two different words. Paul had those words available to him; and being a lawyer, we can be fairly sure that he had a strong command of the language; and that he chose his words carefully. Those who are in Yahshua footsteps, won't be under Yahshua's footsteps.

klutedavid said:
Sin is sin, whether defined by the law or not.

Sin is defined by the law, period.

HARK! · Jun 17, 2020

klutedavid said:
Looks like it, sounds like it, but is not defined as walking according to the law.

Looks like it, sounds like it, and is defined as not walking according to the law

LoveGodsWord · Jun 17, 2020

klutedavid said:
You do not understand the letter to the Romans.

Paul is addressing the Jews in the Gentile, Roman church.

Romans 2:23-24
You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.

The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of YOU (the Jews)!

Not really daer friend. The book of Romans was to Roman Christians made up of both Jewish and Gentile believers.

ROMANS 1:7-16
[7], TO ALL THAT BE IN ROME, BELOVED OF GOD, CALLED TO BE SAINTS: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
[8], First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, THAT YOUR FAITH IS SPOKEN OF THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE WORLD.
[9], For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
[10], Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come to you.
[11], For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift, to the end you may be established.
[12], That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
[13], NOW I WOULD NOT HAVE YOU IGNORANT, BROTHERS, THAT OFTENTIMES I PURPOSED TO COME TO YOU, (BUT WAS LET TILL NOW,) THAT I MIGHT HAVE SOME FRUIT AMONG YOU ALSO, EVEN AS AMONG OTHER GENTILES.
[14], I AM DEBTOR BOTH TO THE GREEKS, AND TO THE BARBARIANS; BOTH TO THE WISE, AND TO THE UNWISE.
[15], SO, AS MUCH AS IN ME IS, I AM READY TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO YOU THAT ARE AT ROME ALSO.
[16], For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God to salvation to every one that believes; TO THE JEW FIRST, AND ALSO TO THE GREEK.

The whole discourse of the following ROMANS 2 and ROMANS 3 is that both JEWS and GENTILES are all under sin and in need of Christ.

Hope this helps.

klutedavid · Jun 17, 2020

HARK! said:
Do you have any proof to support your opinion. You do realize that the onus of proof is on the person who makes the positive assertion; no?

Here's how it works:

Someone makes an extraordinary claim about scripture, and says, "believe me; it's in there."

Someone rejects the claim, and says, "no it's not."

The the burden of proof rests on the person who made the positive claim, that it's there.

If it's there; then he should be able to show it; and prove that it's there.

I hope this helps.

Hey Hark, don't you start saying this, "I hope this helps."

Cribstyl · Jun 17, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
If I did not post scripture I would not LoveGodsWord . One verse can be taken out of context while many verses on the same subject matter (topical bible study) can provide clarity on subject matter and interpretation of the scriptures. For example you and your friend use ROMANS 7:6 as a single scripture divorced from it's context to try and teach that God's 10 commandments are abolished when JESUS, the Apostles, and prophets and the rest of the bible teach that God's 10 commandments are not abolished as shown in post # 420 and the links provided.

The laws of commandments CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES (emphasis in red above is mine). God's 10 Commandments are NOT contained in ORDINANCES. Your mixing up the shadow laws from the Mosiac book of the law with Gods' 10 commandmetns which are the standard of right and wrong, good and evil and sin and righteousness in the new covenant *ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4.

EPHESIANS 2:15 .."law of commandments contained in ORDINANCES" G1378. δόγμα dŏgma, dog´-mah; from the base of 1380; a CIVIL, CEREMONIAL OR ECCLESIASTICAL law:—decree, ordinance (GREEK NEW TESTAMENT DICTIONARY).

Use of scripture applied to ordinance is never applied to God's 10 commandments..

NAIVES TOPICAL BIBLE
ORDINANCE. A decree, Ex. 12:14, 24, 43; 13:10; 15:25; Num. 9:14; 10:8; 15:15; 18:8; Isa. 24:5; Mal. 4:4; Rom. 13:2; 1 Pet. 2:13. Insufficiency of, For Salvation: Isa. 1:10–17; Gal. 5:6; Gal. 6:15; Eph. 2:15; Col. 2:14, 20–23; Heb. 9:1, 8–10

Perhaps you can take your time and prayerfully read the posts and scriptures shared with you dear friend. There is no hurry for you to read them. Perhaps you will get a blessing instead of ignoring the scriptures shared only in love with you as a help. Receive Gods' correction and be blessed. Ignoring God's word does not make it disappear.

Nonsense, you were posted the context to the scripture you cherry picked out of context from ROMANS 7:5 and ROMANS 6:1-23 that disagrees with your interpretation of a single scripture in ROMANS 7:6 trying to claim that God's 10 commandments are abolished as well as the writings of JESUS and the Apostles and most of the new testament scriptures that disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures. What penalty do you think the law imposes for sin (breaking it)? Yep WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH *ROMANS 6:23. There has no narrative changed my side as I have not added anything into the scriptures that are not already there. I have simply pointed out what your disregarding as shown below and in other scriptures of context and same subject matter within the new testament that disagree with your interpretation of ROMANS 7:6 shown already in the linked posts...

ROMANS 7:5-7 [5], FOR WHEN WE WERE IN THE FLESH, THE MOTIONS OF SINS, WHICH WERE BY THE LAW, DID WORK IN OUR MEMBERS TO BRING FORTH FRUIT TO DEATH. [6], But now we are delivered from the law (penalty is death), that being dead WHEREIN WE WERE HELD (SIN); THAT WE SHOULD SERVE IN NEWNESS OF SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE OLDNESS OF THE LETTER. [7], WHAT SHALL WE SAY THEN? IS THE LAW SIN? GOD FORBID. NO, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN, BUT BY THE LAW: FOR I HAD NOT KNOWN LUST, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID, YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

The purpose of God's law (10 commandments) only gives us a knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7.

There is no chapters in the Old and new testament scriptures. These were added in by the translators. Context of ROMANS 7 is ROMANS 2-8 where PAUL is teaching the believers that ALL both JEW and GENTILE have all broken God's law (10 commandments) and stand guilty before God of sin ROMANS 3:9-19 (from ROMANS 2:1-29) and the wages of sin (breaking Gods' Law) is death *ROMANS 6:23. No one is "UNDER THE LAW" if they have repented and confessed their sins and by faith received God's grace and forgiveness. We are only "UNDER THE LAW" according to the scriptures if we stand guilty before God of breaking the law *ROMANS 3:19. ROMANS 7:6 is being released from sin and sins penalty to be free to walk in God's Spirit and not in the flesh ROMANS 7:6; ROMANS 8:1-4; Walking in God's Spirit ESTABLISHES the law in those who have faith in God's Word *ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 8:1-4. Those who walk in God's Spirit do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh *GALATIANS 5:16 because they have been born again to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12 and love is the fulfilling of God's law *ROMANS 13:8-10 to those who have received God's grace through faith and walk in God's Spirit to love. Your interpretation of ROMANS 7:6 is not biblical.

Sorry dear friend God's Word disagrees with you.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear.

Hope this is helpful (take some time to prayerfully read what is shared with you dear friend)

LGW, I am aware that we are not having a friendly conversation because you've blown things out of proportion. Why can I say that for sure? You have mishandled everything that I have said from the start of this dialog.
REWIND
(Sunday at 2:29 AM#403)
KD had a lite hearted exchange with Hark that the apostle Paul did call Christians to desert the law. I don't believe this was a doctrinal statement to defend with the whole bible. KD presented the content of Rom 7:6 as his proof. He said:

KluteDavid said:
Notice, Paul does not say; we are now under the law.

Paul said, 'released from the law', no longer bound to the law, dead to the law.

True or False?
I agreed that he proved his statement, so I have not budged from what's written in Rom 7:6 to answer the question.
I've presented many angles to defend my agreement. Let's look at some of them now.
I did argue that context has to do with circumstances laid out. Rom 7:1-6 is an isolated scenario about the law of a marriage covenant. That content is not in the previous chapter, so I disagree with you that Rom 6 is in context. here is what I believe is the entire context. (Forgive me, I always use blue letters for bible scriptures and my comments are always to follow the word of God above my comments.)

Rom 7:1¶Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
( Paul start with a question; Don't you know that the law has dominion over a man as long as he is lives?)
Rom 7:2
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
(A woman who has a husband is bound by the marriage covenant (law) to her so as long as he is alive. But if he dies, she is loosed (released) from that (law) marriage covenant with her husband.
I highlighted bound and release because that what verse 6 will be referring to.)
Rom 7:3
So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
(So If her husband is still alive, she'd be committing adultery if she cheats. If her husband dies, she becomes free (released) from that marriage covenant and can be married to another.)
Rom 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
(The scenario in 7:4 is no longer a man and a woman, it's you and the covenant to the law. You're the one that died in that relationship. You died with Christ by faith and are raise up with Christ by faith, to be married to Christ, in order to bring good fruit to God.)
Rom 7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
(Because when we were in the flesh (relationship with the law,) you was condemn to death by any motion of sin.)

Rom 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
(But now, we are delivered (released) from the law, because it caused our death when we were held (bound) under it. So now we should serve God, with a renewed spirit and not the law.)

I also submit to you that the next context Rom7:7-25 begins with a question and the answer is not related to Rom 7:1-6.

Again the short story is the new covenant replaces the old covenant by means of death, so we are to separate from the old and hold on to the new. KD was right.

Rest my case.....

Bob S · Jun 17, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
If I did not post scripture I would not LoveGodsWord . One verse can be taken out of context while many verses on the same subject matter (topical bible study) can provide clarity on subject matter and interpretation of the scriptures. For example you and your friend use ROMANS 7:6 as a single scripture divorced from it's context to try and teach that God's 10 commandments are abolished when JESUS, the Apostles, and prophets and the rest of the bible teach that God's 10 commandments are not abolished as shown in post # 420 and the links provided.

The laws of commandments CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES (emphasis in red above is mine). God's 10 Commandments are NOT contained in ORDINANCES. Your mixing up the shadow laws from the Mosiac book of the law with Gods' 10 commandmetns which are the standard of right and wrong, good and evil and sin and righteousness in the new covenant *ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4.

EPHESIANS 2:15 .."law of commandments contained in ORDINANCES" G1378. δόγμα dŏgma, dog´-mah; from the base of 1380; a CIVIL, CEREMONIAL OR ECCLESIASTICAL law:—decree, ordinance (GREEK NEW TESTAMENT DICTIONARY).

Use of scripture applied to ordinance is never applied to God's 10 commandments..

NAIVES TOPICAL BIBLE
ORDINANCE. A decree, Ex. 12:14, 24, 43; 13:10; 15:25; Num. 9:14; 10:8; 15:15; 18:8; Isa. 24:5; Mal. 4:4; Rom. 13:2; 1 Pet. 2:13. Insufficiency of, For Salvation: Isa. 1:10–17; Gal. 5:6; Gal. 6:15; Eph. 2:15; Col. 2:14, 20–23; Heb. 9:1, 8–10

Perhaps you can take your time and prayerfully read the posts and scriptures shared with you dear friend. There is no hurry for you to read them. Perhaps you will get a blessing instead of ignoring the scriptures shared only in love with you as a help. Receive Gods' correction and be blessed. Ignoring God's word does not make it disappear.

Nonsense, you were posted the context to the scripture you cherry picked out of context from ROMANS 7:5 and ROMANS 6:1-23 that disagrees with your interpretation of a single scripture in ROMANS 7:6 trying to claim that God's 10 commandments are abolished as well as the writings of JESUS and the Apostles and most of the new testament scriptures that disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures. What penalty do you think the law imposes for sin (breaking it)? Yep WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH *ROMANS 6:23. There has no narrative changed my side as I have not added anything into the scriptures that are not already there. I have simply pointed out what your disregarding as shown below and in other scriptures of context and same subject matter within the new testament that disagree with your interpretation of ROMANS 7:6 shown already in the linked posts...

ROMANS 7:5-7 [5], FOR WHEN WE WERE IN THE FLESH, THE MOTIONS OF SINS, WHICH WERE BY THE LAW, DID WORK IN OUR MEMBERS TO BRING FORTH FRUIT TO DEATH. [6], But now we are delivered from the law (penalty is death), that being dead WHEREIN WE WERE HELD (SIN); THAT WE SHOULD SERVE IN NEWNESS OF SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE OLDNESS OF THE LETTER. [7], WHAT SHALL WE SAY THEN? IS THE LAW SIN? GOD FORBID. NO, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN, BUT BY THE LAW: FOR I HAD NOT KNOWN LUST, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID, YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

The purpose of God's law (10 commandments) only gives us a knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7.

There is no chapters in the Old and new testament scriptures. These were added in by the translators. Context of ROMANS 7 is ROMANS 2-8 where PAUL is teaching the believers that ALL both JEW and GENTILE have all broken God's law (10 commandments) and stand guilty before God of sin ROMANS 3:9-19 (from ROMANS 2:1-29) and the wages of sin (breaking Gods' Law) is death *ROMANS 6:23. No one is "UNDER THE LAW" if they have repented and confessed their sins and by faith received God's grace and forgiveness. We are only "UNDER THE LAW" according to the scriptures if we stand guilty before God of breaking the law *ROMANS 3:19. ROMANS 7:6 is being released from sin and sins penalty to be free to walk in God's Spirit and not in the flesh ROMANS 7:6; ROMANS 8:1-4; Walking in God's Spirit ESTABLISHES the law in those who have faith in God's Word *ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 8:1-4. Those who walk in God's Spirit do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh *GALATIANS 5:16 because they have been born again to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12 and love is the fulfilling of God's law *ROMANS 13:8-10 to those who have received God's grace through faith and walk in God's Spirit to love. Your interpretation of ROMANS 7:6 is not biblical.

Sorry dear friend God's Word disagrees with you.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear.

Hope this is helpful (take some time to prayerfully read what is shared with you dear friend)

The problem here lies in what is sin. It is not a sin to not keep the ritual commands given to Israel and this includes the ritual Sabbath of the ten commandments. It is not a command to circumcise, the ritual given to Abraham. Since there is no scripture telling us that anyone, until just before Sinai, kept the ritual seventh day Sabbath, what you are promoting nothing more than a figment of yours and others imagination.

You tell us that we cannot believe what is written in Rom 7: 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

You tell us we are misinterpreting 2Cor 3:6-11 Where Paul tells us we are not under the ten commandments, (written code) we are under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

You tell us we cannot believe what is written in Eph 2:15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

You tell us that Jesus, in Matt 5: 16-17, didn't fulfill the law and prophets that He said He came to do. You tell us that fulfill really doesn't mean bring to an end.

You tell us that every place in the New Testament where it mentions commandments it means ten commandments. You have no authority to tell us anything that adds to or misrepresents plain scripture.

Cribstyl · Jun 17, 2020

HARK! said:
"Under the law"

Paul is the only one in the Bible who uses this phrase.

It's found 11 times in his writings.

Romans 3:19
(CLV) Ro 3:19
Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,

Let's look at this very carefully.

Ok, I'll gladly look at it with you, hoping communicative respects are in order.
We cant claim to be brothers in Christ by fighting every time we dialog.
When you disagree with me, please reference what I said.
A Moderator made it clear to me that calling someone's beliefs nonsense is flaming.
Better to say Oh WOW or find something creative to say.

Hark said:
The law speaks to those under the law.

I believe Paul knows and means, the law begins with "Hear Oh Israel...." So those under the law are the ones who were given the law. Paul had already explained in
Rom 2:12¶For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Hark said:
The law speaks so that every mouth in the entire world may become subject to YHWH's judgement.

The text says "every mouth will be (barred) shut" Why? Israel is an example for the world. The world should know that the God of Israel will judge the entire world of sin, just as He as rained judgement on them through the centuries.
The world cant say anything but be in shock and awe because God has been righteous in dealing with Israel about His word and their unrighteousness. (referencing Rom 3:19 content)

Hark said:
As all are subject to YHWH's verdict; it appears that we have two groups here. One group is already subject to YHWH's judgement. The other would not be subject to YHWH's judgement in absence of his Torah.

True, Paul is teaching us that the whole world will be judged of sin by God. I suspect that you're pivoting to say the world will be judged "by the law" for sin, but that is not what Paul is saying here. Paul is not contradicting having just penned, who will be judged by the law.
Rom 2:12¶For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
So Paul already established who will be judged by the law, but all will be judged of sin.

Hark said:
The preceding verse serves to further define the behavior of those who are under the law:

Hark said:
(CLV) Ro 3:18
There is not fear of God in front of their eyes.

Why would we fear our loving Abba?

Oh boy, I have 2 disagreement with you here. Verses Rom 3:10-18 , these are all OT quotes from Psa 14:1-3; Psa 53:1-3
about the whole world not just those under the law.
Rom 3:10¶As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Secondly, it's not talking about "shaking in your boots" fear of God.
It's talking about the 'fear' (being mindful) of God is the beginning of wisdom type fear.
Sheeze, now you're going further off-content to reinforce your teachings, not Paul's.

Hark said:
(CLV) Ex 20:20
Then Moses said to the people: Do not fear, for in order to probe you the One, Elohim has come, and in order that the fear of Him should come over your faces, that you may not sin.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

I disagree with this pivot from what Paul is teaching relating to Rom 3:19, so rather than blast you, I will say no comment.

==================================================

I'll consider this dotted line you posted as a place I can pause and continue in another post.
I would appreciate a response from you before I spend days on this entire post. Please notice that long responses are sermons, where 1 person talks too long to isolate and resolve issues of contention.
Hope this helps (lol)

LoveGodsWord · Jun 17, 2020

Cribstyl said:
LGW, I am aware that we are not having a friendly conversation because you've blown things out of proportion. Why can I say that for sure? You have mishandled everything that I have said from the start of this dialog.
REWIND
(Sunday at 2:29 AM#403)
KD had a lite hearted exchange with Hark that the apostle Paul did call Christians to desert the law. I don't believe this was a doctrinal statement to defend with the whole bible. KD presented the content of Rom 7:6 as his proof. He said:

True or False?
I agreed that he proved his statement, so I have not budged from what's written in Rom 7:6 to answer the question.
I've presented many angles to defend my agreement. Let's look at some of them now.
I did argue that context has to do with circumstances laid out. Rom 7:1-6 is an isolated scenario about the law of a marriage covenant. That content is not in the previous chapter, so I disagree with you that Rom 6 is in context. here is what I believe is the entire context. (Forgive me, I always use blue letters for bible scriptures and my comments are always to follow the word of God above my comments.)

Rom 7:1¶Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
( Paul start with a question; Don't you know that the law has dominion over a man as long as he is lives?)
Rom 7:2
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
(A woman who has a husband is bound by the marriage covenant (law) to her so as long as he is alive. But if he dies, she is loosed (released) from that (law) marriage covenant with her husband.
I highlighted bound and release because that what verse 6 will be referring to.)
Rom 7:3
So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
(So If her husband is still alive, she'd be committing adultery if she cheats. If her husband dies, she becomes free (released) from that marriage covenant and can be married to another.)
Rom 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
(The scenario in 7:4 is no longer a man and a woman, it's you and the covenant to the law. You're the one that died in that relationship. You died with Christ by faith and are raise up with Christ by faith, to be married to Christ, in order to bring good fruit to God.)
Rom 7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
(Because when we were in the flesh (relationship with the law,) you was condemn to death by any motion of sin.)

Rom 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
(But now, we are delivered (released) from the law, because it caused our death when we were held (bound) under it. So now we should serve God, with a renewed spirit and not the law.)

I also submit to you that the next context Rom7:7-25 begins with a question and the answer is not related to Rom 7:1-6.

Again the short story is the new covenant replaces the old covenant by means of death, so we are to separate from the old and hold on to the new. KD was right.

Rest my case.....

Hello dear friend nice to see you.

You are mistaken, if you think that all my posts are not friendly to you. I am not aware of trying to make you think otherwise and all my posts have only been sent in love and as a help to you and anyone else who may be interested on the subject matter being discussed. They are God’s Word that has been shared with you not my words. They simply provide the contexts that prove why your interpretation of the scriptures in regards to ROMANS 7:6 are in error.

Now how you think your posts here addresses any of the content and scriptures in my posts provided in post # 442 linked that show why your interpretation of ROMANS 7:6 is in error is beyond me just the same as your interpretation of ROMANS 7:6 to mean that a Christians moral obligations to God’s 10 commandments have been abolished despite JESUS and the APOSTLES and all the new testament scriptures disagreeing with you as shown in post # 420 and the links provided is also beyond my thinking. From GENESIS to REVELATION the good news of the Gospel of JESUS Christ is salvation from sin not to continue in sin (breaking Gods commandments). If there is no law we would have no knowledge of what sin is. This is the purpose of God’s law in the new covenant which is to give us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness as shown in the new covenant scriptures *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4 and if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11.

It is this very law of God that leads us to God’s GRACE and the gift of God’s dear son that we might be forgiven through faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25. It shows us our need of God’s salvation and reveals to us that we are all sinners in needs of salvation *MATTHEW 9:12-13. If there is no law then we have no knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:23; ROMANS 7:7. If we have no knowledge of what sin is we have no need of a Saviour from sin. If we have no Saviour we have no salvation because we are still in our sins and the scripture is fulfilled “For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law – ROMANS 2:12

I can only assume that you did not prayerfully read the scriptures provided which were only shared in love and as a help to you that prove why your interpretation here is in error from my earlier posts. From what I can see here dear friend in reading your post is that you are yet to make a case to claim God's 10 commandments are abolsihed when the very Words of JESUS and the Apostles and new testament disagree with you and directly state the opposite of what you claim a single scripture interpretation divorced of context is saying in regards of ROMANS 7:6. What you have provided in ROMANS 7:1-5 does not support your interpretation of ROMANS 7:6 that we are released from our moral obligation to uphold God’s law, but from the sins which binds us to the law that the law gives us the knowledge of which has already been shown previously in ROMANS 3:20 and just past ROMANS 7:6 in ROMANS 7:7.

As stated earlier, there is no chapters in these books these were added in latter by the translators. In ROMANS 7:1 Paul is not starting a new subject here in Romans 7:1-7 but a new example or similtude of the same subject matter continuing from ROMANS 6:1-23 of death to old man of sin (breaking God’s Commandments) we once served *ROMANS 6:6.

The first word in this chapter "or" is a single letter in the Greek (Ē), which is a disjunctive conjunction, that let's us know that what he's going to say now is related to something he said previously.

The subject of the Law and CONTEXT to ROMANS 7 takes us back to the previous chapter in

ROMANS 6:1-23 of which is the subject matter of;

1. WE ARE NOT TO SERVE SIN *ROMANS 6:1
2. WE ARE TO BE DEAD to SIN *ROMANS 6:2
3. WE ARE NOT TO YEILDING TO SIN *ROMANS 6:13
4. SIN IS NOT TO HAVE DOMINION OVER US *ROMANS 6:14-15
5. WE ARE TO BE DEAD TO SIN AND ALIVE IN CHRIST *ROMANS 6:11
6. WE ARE TO BE FREE FROM SIN *ROMANS 6:18
7. THE FRUIT OF SIN IS DEATH *ROMANS 6:21
8. SIN WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH *ROMANS 6:23
9. OUR OLD MAN IS CRUCIFIED (DEAD – Sound familiar to ROMANS 7:1-4) WITH CHRIST SO WE SHOULD NOT SERVE SIN *ROMANS *ROMANS 6:6
10. BEING DEAD WE ARE FREE FROM SIN (DEAD – Sound familiar to ROMANS 7:1-4) *ROMANS 6:7
11. WE ARE SERVANT TO WHO WE YEILD OURSELVES TO OBEY; SIN (breaking God’s commandments) LEADS TO DEATH WHILE OBEDIENCE (to God’s commandments) TO RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 6:16
12. BEFORE WE CAME TO CHRIST WE WERE THE SERVANTS OF SIN (breaking God’s commandments) BUT HAVE NOW OBEYED FROM THE HEART (HEBREWS 8:10-12) THE WORD OF GOD *ROMANS 6:17

SIN is defined in God’s Word as breaking anyone of God’s 10 commandments *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; JAMES 2:10-11 and not believing and following Gods’ Word *ROMANS 14:23. All this is the scripture CONTEXT to which ROMANS 7:1-6 is continuing from. This is the oppisite of your interpretation of ROMANS 7:6 trying to claim that God's 10 commandments are abolished and no longer a moral obligation for Christians.

Now taking into consideration the above CONTEXT that we are no longer to continue in SIN (breaking anyone of God’s commandments and not believing and following God's Word), let look at what ROMANS 7:1-6 is building from...

ROMANS 6:1-23 uses the similtude (example) of being sevants of sin before we come to Christ or servants of righteousness, being dead to sin and alive to christ to serve in newness of life *ROMANS 6:7-27.

Now we have establsihed CONTEXT which is not to continue in SIN which is breaking anyone of God's commandments and not believing and following God's Word and walking in newness of life and obedience to God's Word that leads to holiness *ROMANS 6:18-20, let's look at...

ROMANS 7:1-7
[1], “Or” do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives??

The first word in this chapter "or" is a single letter in the Greek (Ē), which is a disjunctive conjunction, that let's us know that what he's going to say now is related to something he said previously.

[2], For the woman which has an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he lives; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

The woman here is another similtude representative of the Church *EPHESIANS 5:22-32, God's people before we came to Christ we were bound to another husband. This is in reference to ROMANS 6:1-7 context to our old man of sin that we once served that must die before we can be married to Christ!

[3], So then if, while her husband lives, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

The old man (sin and the flesh) that we have been married to before we met Christ must die before we can be married to Christ *ROMANS 6:6-7

[4], Why, my brothers, you also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit to God.

We are to become dead to the law by the body of Christ that is by Christ death for our sins paying our wages of sin (death) Romans 6:8-10 [8], Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:[9], Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death has no more dominion over him.[10], For in that he died, he died to sin once: but in that he lives, he lives to God. Our righteousness does not come from the law. The law only shows sin. Our rightouesness comes from Christ.

[5], For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit to death.

The old man (the Flesh) of sin brings forther the fruits of death. Sin (breaking God's commandments and not believing God's Word brings forth death. Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace.

[6], But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

We are delivered from the laws penalty of sin which is death by the blood of Christs death for our sins that we are now free to walk in newness of life of the Spirit *

Romans 6:4, Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Galatians 5:16 Walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (old man)

[7], What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, You shall not covet.

The law is not sin it only gives us a knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 7:7.

...........

Now dear friend all of the above is the context to ROMANS 7:6. There is no where in this scripture that says that Christians have no moral obligation to God's 10 commandments. These scriptures shown in context prove that those who are Christs walk in newness of life and obedience to God's Word through faith that leads to RIGHTEOUSNESS and eternal life.

Context matters and you have not provided any. What you and your friends are teaching is not biblical as proven above by adding the context back you have left out of your interpretation of a single scripture that disagrees with the whole bible.

Hope this is helpful.

Cribstyl · Jun 17, 2020

HARK! said:
Do you have any proof to support your opinion. You do realize that the onus of proof is on the person who makes the positive assertion; no?

Here's how it works:

Someone makes an extraordinary claim about scripture, and says, "believe me; it's in there."

Someone rejects the claim, and says, "no it's not."

The the burden of proof rests on the person who made the positive claim, that it's there.

If it's there; then he should be able to show it; and prove that it's there.

I hope this helps.

Don't know what you're talking about. Post what I said that's unsupported by scripture and I'll try to give you a response.

pescador · Jun 17, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Hello dear friend nice to see you.

You are mistaken, if you think that all my posts are not friendly to you. I am not aware of trying to make you think otherwise and all my posts have only been sent in love and as a help to you and anyone else who may be interested on the subject matter being discussed. They are God’s Word not my words. It seems you do not believe them.

Now how you think your posts here addresses any of the content and scriptures in my posts provided in post # 442 linked that show why your interpretation of ROMANS 7:6 is in error is beyond me just the same as your interpretation of ROMANS 7:6 to mean that a Christians moral obligations to God’s 10 commandments have been abolished despite JESUS and the APOSTLES and all the new testament scriptures disagreeing with you as shown in post # 420 and the links provided is also beyond my thinking. From GENESIS to REVELATION the good news of the Gospel of JESUS Christ is salvation from sin not to continue in sin (breaking Gods commandments). If there is no law we would have no knowledge of what sin is. This is the purpose of God’s law in the new covenant which is to give us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness as shown in the new covenant scriptures *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4 and if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11.

It is this very law of God that leads us to God’s GRACE and the gift of God’s dear son that we might be forgiven through faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25. It shows us our need of God’s salvation and reveals to us that we are all sinners in needs of salvation *MATTHEW 9:12-13. If there is no law then we have no knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:23; ROMANS 7:7. If we have no knowledge of what sin is we have no need of a Saviour from sin. If we have no Saviour we have no salvation because we are still in our sins and the scripture is fulfilled “For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law – ROMANS 2:12

I can only assume that you did not prayerfully read the scriptures provided which were only shared in love and as a help to you that prove why your interpretation here is in error from my earlier posts. From what I can see here dear friend in reading your post is that you are yet to make a case to claim God's 10 commandments are abolsihed when the very Words of JESUS and the Apostles and new testament disagree with you and directly state the opposite of what you claim a single scripture interpretation divorced of context is saying in regards of ROMANS 7:6. What you have provided in ROMANS 7:1-5 does not support your interpretation of ROMANS 7:6 that we are released from our moral obligation to uphold God’s law, but from the sins which binds us to the law that the law gives us the knowledge of which has already been shown previously in ROMANS 3:20 and just past ROMANS 7:6 in ROMANS 7:7.

As stated earlier, there is no chapters in these books these were added in latter by the translators. In ROMANS 7:1 Paul is not starting a new subject here in Romans 7:1-7 but a new example or similtude of the same subject matter continuing from ROMANS 6:1-23 of death to old man of sin (breaking God’s Commandments) we once served *ROMANS 6:6.

The first word in this chapter "or" is a single letter in the Greek (Ē), which is a disjunctive conjunction, that let's us know that what he's going to say now is related to something he said previously.

The subject of the Law and CONTEXT to ROMANS 7 takes us back to the previous chapter in

ROMANS 6:1-23 of which is the subject matter of;
1. WE ARE NOT TO SERVE SIN *ROMANS 6:1
2. WE ARE TO BE DEAD to SIN *ROMANS 6:2
3. WE ARE NOT TO YEILDING TO SIN *ROMANS 6:13
4. SIN IS NOT TO HAVE DOMINION OVER US *ROMANS 6:14-15
5. WE ARE TO BE DEAD TO SIN AND ALIVE IN CHRIST *ROMANS 6:11
6. WE ARE TO BE FREE FROM SIN *ROMANS 6:18
7. THE FRUIT OF SIN IS DEATH *ROMANS 6:21
8. SIN WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH *ROMANS 6:23
9. OUR OLD MAN IS CRUCIFIED (DEAD – Sound familiar to ROMANS 7:1-4) WITH CHRIST SO WE SHOULD NOT SERVE SIN *ROMANS *ROMANS 6:6
10. BEING DEAD WE ARE FREE FROM SIN (DEAD – Sound familiar to ROMANS 7:1-4) *ROMANS 6:7
11. WE ARE SERVANT TO WHO WE YEILD OURSELVES TO OBEY; SIN (breaking God’s commandments) LEADS TO DEATH WHILE OBEDIENCE (to God’s commandments) TO RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 6:16
12. BEFORE WE CAME TO CHRIST WE WERE THE SERVANTS OF SIN (breaking God’s commandments) BUT HAVE NOW OBEYED FROM THE HEART (HEBREWS 8:10-12) THE WORD OF GOD *ROMANS 6:17

SIN is defined in God’s Word as breaking anyone of God’s 10 commandments *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; JAMES 2:10-11 and not believing and following Gods’ Word *ROMANS 14:23. All this is the scripture CONTEXT to which ROMANS 7:1-6 is continuing from. This is the oppisite of your interpretation of ROMANS 7:6 trying to claim that God's 10 commandments are abolished and no longer a moral obligation for Christians.

Now taking into consideration the above CONTEXT that we are no longer to continue in SIN (breaking anyone of God’s commandments and not believing and following God's Word), let look at what ROMANS 7:1-6 is building from...

ROMANS 6:1-23 uses the similtude (example) of being sevants of sin before we come to Christ or servants of righteousness, being dead to sin and alive to christ to serve in newness of life *ROMANS 6:7-27.

Now we have establsihed CONTEXT which is not to continue in SIN which is breaking anyone of God's commandments and not believing and following God's Word and walking in newness of life and obedience to God's Word that leads to holiness *ROMANS 6:18-20, let's look at...

ROMANS 7:1-7
[1], “Or” do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives??

The first word in this chapter "or" is a single letter in the Greek (Ē), which is a disjunctive conjunction, that let's us know that what he's going to say now is related to something he said previously.

[2], For the woman which has an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he lives; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

The woman here is another similtude representative of the Church *EPHESIANS 5:22-32, God's people before we came to Christ we were bound to another husband. This is in reference to ROMANS 6:1-7 context to our old man of sin that we once served that must die before we can be married to Christ!

[3], So then if, while her husband lives, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

The old man (sin and the flesh) that we have been married to before we met Christ must die before we can be married to Christ *ROMANS 6:6-7

[4], Why, my brothers, you also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit to God.

We are to become dead to the law by the body of Christ that is by Christ death for our sins paying our wages of sin (death) Romans 6:8-10 [8], Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:[9], Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death has no more dominion over him.[10], For in that he died, he died to sin once: but in that he lives, he lives to God. Our righteousness does not come from the law. The law only shows sin. Our rightouesness comes from Christ.

[5], For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit to death.

The old man (the Flesh) of sin brings forther the fruits of death. Sin (breaking God's commandments and not believing God's Word brings forth death. Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace.

[6], But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

We are delivered from the laws penalty of sin which is death by the blood of Christs death for our sins that we are now free to walk in newness of life of the Spirit *

Romans 6:4, Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Galatians 5:16 Walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (old man)

[7], What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, You shall not covet.

The law is not sin it only gives us a knowledge of what sin is.

...........

Now dear friend all of the above is the context to ROMANS 7:6. There is no where in this scripture that says that Christians have no moral obligation to God's 10 commandments. These scriptures shown in context prove that those who are Christs walk in newness of life and obedience to God's Word through faith that leads to RIGHTEOUSNESS and eternal life.

Context matters and you have not provided any. What you and your friends are teaching is not biblical as proven above by adding the context back you have left out of your interpretation of a single scripture that disagrees with the whole bible.

Hope this is helpful.

It's really too bad that you didn't keep reading what Paul wrote to the church at Rome. Romans 8:1-4 says, " There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

That plainly says that Christians are no longer under the Old Testament Law; our lives in Christ Jesus are governed by the Holy Spirit.

Hopefully this will save you a lot of typing, trying to prove something contrary to what Scripture clearly says.

klutedavid · Jun 17, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Not really daer friend. The book of Romans was to Roman Christians made up of both Jewish and Gentile believers.

ROMANS 1:7-16
[7], TO ALL THAT BE IN ROME, BELOVED OF GOD, CALLED TO BE SAINTS: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
[8], First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, THAT YOUR FAITH IS SPOKEN OF THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE WORLD.
[9], For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
[10], Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come to you.
[11], For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift, to the end you may be established.
[12], That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
[13], NOW I WOULD NOT HAVE YOU IGNORANT, BROTHERS, THAT OFTENTIMES I PURPOSED TO COME TO YOU, (BUT WAS LET TILL NOW,) THAT I MIGHT HAVE SOME FRUIT AMONG YOU ALSO, EVEN AS AMONG OTHER GENTILES.
[14], I AM DEBTOR BOTH TO THE GREEKS, AND TO THE BARBARIANS; BOTH TO THE WISE, AND TO THE UNWISE.
[15], SO, AS MUCH AS IN ME IS, I AM READY TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO YOU THAT ARE AT ROME ALSO.
[16], For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God to salvation to every one that believes; TO THE JEW FIRST, AND ALSO TO THE GREEK.

The whole discourse of the following ROMANS 2 and ROMANS 3 is that both JEWS and GENTILES are all under sin and in need of Christ.

Hope this helps.

Your shifting position in your understanding of the letter to the Romans, from one post to another post.

Here I will demonstrate from two posts submitted earlier by you.

Post #431

The book of Romans was written to Gentile believers.

Post #452

The book of Romans was to Roman Christians made up of both Jewish and Gentile believers.

I am confused here, as I don't know what you are saying from post to post.

I will ask again, who was Paul talking to in the letter to the Romans in the verse below?

Romans 2:23-24
You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.

The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of YOU (the Jews)!

THE SABBATH TRUTH!

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