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Sparagmos

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Maybe you have an issue with godly Christian wives submitting to their husbands, but what is the alternative? “Liberated” women want to focus on their careers above their families, they accumulate a bus load of sexual immorality partners prior to meeting their husband (not to mention all the diseases that come with that), and they think divorce is acceptable and will be inclined to initiate a breakup of the marriage whenever they feel unsatisfied. I certainly wouldn’t want to marry such a woman!
Sounds like Lord Vega took a red pill...
 
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Sparagmos

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You don't think makeup is appropriate? I have a calling to fashion design and I assure you God isn't creating burkas! Do you know any Muslim women?

~Bella
I think he’s a Poe? Great thread by the way. Happy to see a different perspective.
 
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bekkilyn

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The implication of that reasoning is that Christ submits to the church...

...but Christ's love for the church and the church's submission to Christ are not the same thing.

But that's the thing...Christ does submit to his church, to those he loves. He's the very essence of love. Do you think his very character as a person is any different in heaven than it was on earth?

When his church reaches a state of Christ-like-ness, then there really is no difference. Just as in a marriage, the two are as one.
 
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bekkilyn

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I think he’s a Poe? Great thread by the way. Happy to see a different perspective.

Yep, saw that last post and decided he's a troll hoping to deteriorate the thread. Best to just ignore it.
 
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Caliban

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Maybe you have an issue with godly Christian husbands submitting to their wives, but what is the alternative? “Liberated” men want to focus on their careers above their families
That is not the only alternative. I am not a Christian and I do not hold ideas of submission in my marriage--I'm just not a jerk. My wife and are a strong partners who sincerely care about each other and our children. We compromise and that is very different from submitting. I cook dinner, she does the dishes. That's just helping each other get through life. I know it is difficult for many Christians to imagine what a secular marriage would look like--but it's probable not what you think. Besides, we argue a lot less than our religious family and friends.
 
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bekkilyn

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That is not the only alternative. I am not a Christian and I do not hold ideas of submission in my marriage--I'm just not a jerk. My wife and are a strong partners who sincerely care about each other and our children. We compromise and that is very different from submitting. I cook dinner, she does the dishes. That's just helping each other get through life. I know it is difficult for many Christians to imagine what a secular marriage would look like--but it's probable not what you think. Besides, we argue a lot less than our religious family and friends.

I think you are absolutely correct. I think one of the issues here and why this argument keeps cropping up among Christians is that so many have a very convoluted idea of what submission in this context actually is. It really is about partnership as you suggest. You're not all that great at something, so your wife takes over (you are submitting to her strength), and she is weak in some area and you are skilled in that area, so you take over for that (she is submitting to your strength), and if you are both strong or both weak, you simply work together towards a mutual goal, sometimes leading, sometimes following.

In a more spiritual context (which is really what Paul is talking about), the goal is a marriage of Christ and the church, Christ and church becoming one, that when we look at the church, we see Christ.

The practice of submission, of surrendering, is spiritually very important to both men and women, and I don't think it is coincidence that Paul spends twice as much time in Ephesians instructing men than he does women. Men tend to be VERY resistant to surrendering or submitting to anyone or anything but it is crucial to our relationships with each other and also with God. (And you can find this thinking in other faiths and spiritual beliefs as well, though instead of "God" they might use Source or Universe or some other term, but being open to receive wisdom, messages, instruction and the like is important.)

For Christians, how are we to hear the still small voice of the Holy Spirit unless we have learned submission and surrender, to put aside our own voice and our own ego to listen? And who better at demonstrating submission than God himself, than Christ himself? Christ is the master of submission and if a man (or a woman) is going to become more like Christ, then it's a lesson he (or she) must learn.

But unless you are capable of submitting to those who you believe to be weaker or inferior, then how do you even begin to learn such a lesson? I believe Paul recognizes this necessity and uses the example of a first century marriage to open people's eyes to Christ and who Christ is. (He's not trying to force everyone in the 21st century to set up our marriages like they were back the 1st century as many Christians seem to think!)

Paul says it's a mystery and if there is one thing 21st century people seem to really hate is leaving something a mystery! But yet in the spiritual sense, we are required to submit to the mystery that is Christ. Again, it's really not about human marriage at all.
 
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Sketcher

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I'm a complementarian - but not a rigid one. I'm good with Biblical gender roles, but if the focus becomes rigid adherence to them as opposed to loving the person you're married to, I don't see how that's Biblical. I personally filter headship through the lens of leadership, and the strongest leadership isn't rigid or dominating.
 
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ewq1938

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OldWiseGuy

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You know I didn't write that. Are you being helpful or poking fun?

~Bella

It was intended for the author, and the readers, not you. :)
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Are you sure about that? ;)

~Bella

Quite sure.

φιλέω philéō, fil-eh'-o; from G5384; to be a friend to (fond of (an individual or an object)), i.e. have affection for (denoting personal attachment, as a matter of sentiment or feeling; while G25 (agapao) is wider, embracing especially the judgment and the deliberate assent of the will as a matter of principle, duty and propriety: the two thus stand related very much as G2309 and G1014, or as G2372 and G3563 respectively; (the former being chiefly of the heart and the latter of the head); specially, to kiss (as a mark of tenderness):—kiss, love.

Interesting that a fuller meaning of agape is found in the reference for phileo.
 
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An interesting article on biblical submission. The author raises some important points. —courtesy of True Love Dates

I ended up writing the following blog post, to express some of my concerns regarding the whole “submission culture” that we see in Christian communities, and posed a few important questions for all of us to chew on:

HAVE WE FOCUSED TOO MUCH ON SUBMISSION, AND TOO LITTLE ON LOVE?

As a Licensed Professional Counselor and relationship specialist, the truth of the matter is that I’ve seen this concept of “submission” defined and redefined in so many ways. And sadly, I’ve seen it used to fulfill selfish agendas and aid in manipulation, and at times, even abuse. As a Christian I’ve grown up in conservative circles hearing conversation after conversation about a “submissive wife”, but why is it that we’ve focused so much on submission, yet so little on the idea of establishing a loving marriage? Don’t the two go hand-in-hand?

As I look through Scripture, and even zoom-in on the Ephesians 5 passage where all this content stems, I see so much more about love than submission. In fact, the word “love” is used in some way, shape or form more than TWICE as much as the word submission in the referenced passage. There is a significant umbrella of love that is foundational to this concept, but so many times it gets looked over. We PREACH to the women about submission, yet all-the-while neglecting to TEACH the men about love.

Training a wife to submit to an unloving husband is like training a child to swim without water – it simply misses the mark, because there’s so much more to it than the superficial strokes.

Too many women have been bogged down in unhealthy and dangerous relationships yet answered with the simple concept of “submission”, rather than getting the REAL help they need to tackle and heal the root problems in their marriage. I’m just going to say it: there’s more to a healthy marriage than submission…and that more is found in the unconditional, life-giving, marriage-nourishing LOVE of Christ that has to be both given and received by husband and wife. Maybe it’s time we zoom in on that.

HAVE WE PLACED OUR OWN CULTURAL GENDER ROLES ON A SPIRITUAL CONCEPT?

Another thing I found myself questioning throughout the show was the idea that “submission” meant that a wife learn to be a good homemaker. I can confidently say I don’t see that anywhere in Scripture. Now granted, with reality TV, I am aware that there are limitations to what is portrayed and displayed (a.k.a edited out) on the screen, but one theme that kept shining through this particular show is the idea of creating “a happy husband” through cooking, cleaning, laundry, and sex.

I won’t deny that most men, my husband included, love and appreciate the things their wives do to show them love (often including cooking, cleaning, laundry and sex). And in fact, I LOVE doing those things for my husband!

But isn’t there a difference between acts of service toward our spouse, and the biblical concept of women submitting to their husbands!? Could it be that we have placed our own cultural gender roles on a spiritual concept? In my opinion, the answer is a resounding and absolute: YES!! THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!

I truly believe we’ve done the concept of biblical submission a terrible disservice by lumping it into the category of simply being a good homemaker. Not only so, but I believe that many women, who aren’t necessarily gifted in this way, may feel slighted and even offended by the thought that the reflection of their willingness to submit to their husbands is measured by the cleanliness of their house, the pile of their laundry, or the quality of their cooking. Which leads me to my last thought…

HAVE WE FOCUSED ON SUPERFICIAL ACTIONS WITHOUT TACKLING THE HEART OF THE ISSUE?

I won’t deny that biblical submission is an important topic, but I revolt against the mentality that it’s measured by a certain list of superficial things. I think deep down, at the heart of biblical submission is a woman’s ability and willingness to TRUST her husband in the give-and-take relationship of marriage.

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

As a woman, I know the tendency I have deep in my heart to just “take control” of any and every situation. But part of learning to be a wife was learning to let my will align with the will of my husband’s, as the two of us became one. And in order for me to unite with him, whether it be in lifestyle choices, decision making, intimacy, or parenting-issues, I had to learn to trust him in a way that, up until marriage, I had only done with God.

I had to learn to let go of my control issues, by learning to take into consideration someone else’s will, desires, and wants. This is where trust was SO huge. And it is only because of my love and submission to Jesus, paired with my husband’s love and submission to Jesus, that I was and am able to continually trust in his love and actions toward me.

Just listen to the unbelievable and challenging call to husbands in these next few verses, right after the concept of submission is presented for the first time:

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

What I’m trying to say here is that there is so much more to the concept of women submitting to their husbands in marriage than what we sometimes present in Christian culture.

As we see in the verses above, there is so much mutual respect, mutual love, and even mutual submission that HAS TO EXIST in a relationship in order for this process to truly work. It’s not about the laundry, the dishes, the finances, the sex, or the “last word” on decisions…more than anything, it’s about learning to trust, to respect, and ultimately, to love one another, as Christ has loved us.

And the thing about real love is this: you don’t have to constantly have your own back, when you know that someone else has your back better than you ever could! In the biblical sense of the term submission, you learn to let go, knowing that your husband loves, nurtures, and cares for you just as much as he loves himself and that your desires, opinions, and preferences will be heard! When it comes to women submitting to their husbands, true biblical submission is never one-sided, but in fact, it’s always triangular: Christ pours into us as we pour into one another, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. How beautiful is that?!

Imagine what could happen if we as a culture focused less on the term “submission”, and more on learning to become like Jesus through our actions, our habits, our communication styles, our finances, our sex-lives, and even our emotional intimacy? Imagine what our marriages would look like if we learned to be the closest reflection to Jesus our spouse would ever see?

I don’t know about you, but I’m all for that model of biblical marriage! May the Lord teach us to love, just as we’ve been loved by Him. And may that love impact our relationships, our marriages, our families, and even our world.

Ephesians 5:22-33 "22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband."

Since the husband is also told to love the wife as Christ loved the Church, this provides accountability for the husband and any authority granted to him over the wife. We don't see Jesus demanding anyone wash his clothes or cook his dinner, but we do see him washing the feet of his disciples and ultimately dying for the Church. I am a husband and I take these verses to mean that Jesus has placed the responsibility upon me to ensure my family is making positive spiritual progression toward God and to ensure that safety and stability is maintained within it. It's also important to note that the first verse (22) specifies that the husband is not a replacement for Christ, but that the wife is to submit to her husband AS she does the Lord, so if the Lord is leading her one way and I'm trying to lead her another, Christ definitely trumps anything I would say.
 
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timewerx

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An interesting article on biblical submission. The author raises some important points. —courtesy of True Love Dates

I ended up writing the following blog post, to express some of my concerns regarding the whole “submission culture” that we see in Christian communities, and posed a few important questions for all of us to chew on:

HAVE WE FOCUSED TOO MUCH ON SUBMISSION, AND TOO LITTLE ON LOVE?

As a Licensed Professional Counselor and relationship specialist, the truth of the matter is that I’ve seen this concept of “submission” defined and redefined in so many ways. And sadly, I’ve seen it used to fulfill selfish agendas and aid in manipulation, and at times, even abuse. As a Christian I’ve grown up in conservative circles hearing conversation after conversation about a “submissive wife”, but why is it that we’ve focused so much on submission, yet so little on the idea of establishing a loving marriage? Don’t the two go hand-in-hand?

As I look through Scripture, and even zoom-in on the Ephesians 5 passage where all this content stems, I see so much more about love than submission. In fact, the word “love” is used in some way, shape or form more than TWICE as much as the word submission in the referenced passage. There is a significant umbrella of love that is foundational to this concept, but so many times it gets looked over. We PREACH to the women about submission, yet all-the-while neglecting to TEACH the men about love.

Training a wife to submit to an unloving husband is like training a child to swim without water – it simply misses the mark, because there’s so much more to it than the superficial strokes.

Too many women have been bogged down in unhealthy and dangerous relationships yet answered with the simple concept of “submission”, rather than getting the REAL help they need to tackle and heal the root problems in their marriage. I’m just going to say it: there’s more to a healthy marriage than submission…and that more is found in the unconditional, life-giving, marriage-nourishing LOVE of Christ that has to be both given and received by husband and wife. Maybe it’s time we zoom in on that.

HAVE WE PLACED OUR OWN CULTURAL GENDER ROLES ON A SPIRITUAL CONCEPT?

Another thing I found myself questioning throughout the show was the idea that “submission” meant that a wife learn to be a good homemaker. I can confidently say I don’t see that anywhere in Scripture. Now granted, with reality TV, I am aware that there are limitations to what is portrayed and displayed (a.k.a edited out) on the screen, but one theme that kept shining through this particular show is the idea of creating “a happy husband” through cooking, cleaning, laundry, and sex.

I won’t deny that most men, my husband included, love and appreciate the things their wives do to show them love (often including cooking, cleaning, laundry and sex). And in fact, I LOVE doing those things for my husband!

But isn’t there a difference between acts of service toward our spouse, and the biblical concept of women submitting to their husbands!? Could it be that we have placed our own cultural gender roles on a spiritual concept? In my opinion, the answer is a resounding and absolute: YES!! THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!

I truly believe we’ve done the concept of biblical submission a terrible disservice by lumping it into the category of simply being a good homemaker. Not only so, but I believe that many women, who aren’t necessarily gifted in this way, may feel slighted and even offended by the thought that the reflection of their willingness to submit to their husbands is measured by the cleanliness of their house, the pile of their laundry, or the quality of their cooking. Which leads me to my last thought…

HAVE WE FOCUSED ON SUPERFICIAL ACTIONS WITHOUT TACKLING THE HEART OF THE ISSUE?

I won’t deny that biblical submission is an important topic, but I revolt against the mentality that it’s measured by a certain list of superficial things. I think deep down, at the heart of biblical submission is a woman’s ability and willingness to TRUST her husband in the give-and-take relationship of marriage.

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

As a woman, I know the tendency I have deep in my heart to just “take control” of any and every situation. But part of learning to be a wife was learning to let my will align with the will of my husband’s, as the two of us became one. And in order for me to unite with him, whether it be in lifestyle choices, decision making, intimacy, or parenting-issues, I had to learn to trust him in a way that, up until marriage, I had only done with God.

I had to learn to let go of my control issues, by learning to take into consideration someone else’s will, desires, and wants. This is where trust was SO huge. And it is only because of my love and submission to Jesus, paired with my husband’s love and submission to Jesus, that I was and am able to continually trust in his love and actions toward me.

Just listen to the unbelievable and challenging call to husbands in these next few verses, right after the concept of submission is presented for the first time:

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

What I’m trying to say here is that there is so much more to the concept of women submitting to their husbands in marriage than what we sometimes present in Christian culture.

As we see in the verses above, there is so much mutual respect, mutual love, and even mutual submission that HAS TO EXIST in a relationship in order for this process to truly work. It’s not about the laundry, the dishes, the finances, the sex, or the “last word” on decisions…more than anything, it’s about learning to trust, to respect, and ultimately, to love one another, as Christ has loved us.

And the thing about real love is this: you don’t have to constantly have your own back, when you know that someone else has your back better than you ever could! In the biblical sense of the term submission, you learn to let go, knowing that your husband loves, nurtures, and cares for you just as much as he loves himself and that your desires, opinions, and preferences will be heard! When it comes to women submitting to their husbands, true biblical submission is never one-sided, but in fact, it’s always triangular: Christ pours into us as we pour into one another, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. How beautiful is that?!

Imagine what could happen if we as a culture focused less on the term “submission”, and more on learning to become like Jesus through our actions, our habits, our communication styles, our finances, our sex-lives, and even our emotional intimacy? Imagine what our marriages would look like if we learned to be the closest reflection to Jesus our spouse would ever see?

I don’t know about you, but I’m all for that model of biblical marriage! May the Lord teach us to love, just as we’ve been loved by Him. And may that love impact our relationships, our marriages, our families, and even our world.

The problem is mostly about failing to understand Apostle Paul.

Sadly, even pastors, elders, church authorities totally misunderstood Paul.

Wives DO NOT need to submit to their husbands, period.

MOST Christians have totally NO CLUE about 1 Corinthians 9:19-23. Paul simply took the message by the CULTURE of HIS AUDIENCES.

I am finally coming to realize how dramatic the lengths you have to go to make someone believe who have a different way of thinking (ie, different culture or even suffering from mental or psychological disorder). The latter is the most dramatic.

So it is A BIT of a problem when mainstream Christianity decided to build our theological foundation on Paul's Epistles.

Christianity is really NOT SO "black and white" as the mainstream thinks so. Mainstream Christianity wants to believe it but the facts and TRUTH and hard evidence disproves it. We wouldn't have so many denominations if Christianity has in fact, clearly defined ("black and white") theology.

Here's the really worst part. How we misunderstood The Apostle Paul doesn't just end in marital relations. It goes all the way to the theological foundations of Christianity. Of course, everyone who speaks against it is branded heretic. Indeed, only FEW will find the "narrow gate"
 
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Blade

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Hi thanks for that :) What I am about to say PLEASE just take it as its was written. God made man.. took a rib made man. Not good for man to be alone. (a God? you never have to go? lol) Made woman.. a helper. Some took that word and just RAN with it. A woman in the word Prophet..and I love this "Certainly I will go with you," said Deborah. "But because of the course you are taking, the honor will not be yours, for the LORD will deliver Sisera into the hands of a woman." So Deborah went with Barak to Kedesh." In to the hands of a woman...

We've been married for over 35 years. Going out like 4 years before that. I don't know why it took so long to see. I know what the word says about how I am to treat her and how she is to treat me. Its getting twisted a bit even here. The first thing is.. WHO is being talked about? :) So some years ago we were fighting she was saying things ...things your worst enemy would never say. It was surly not the first time and we have not even touched things I said did what ever.

But over time when two are fighting no one is listening. So I always stop... and listen. Oh and sometimes that alone makes it worse :) So in this fight she was.. so mean. I still remember right in the middle of the fight...this love just covered me. I still remember saying out loud not thinking "THIS is what love really is". Sorry I don't know how to explain it. I had this love I have never had and don't know.. a taste yes. I looked at her.. this always makes me cry.. don't know why. Its like hmm a door opening and you see deep inside..I saw her the heart and everything on the out side she was saying was not her. Man when God says man only sees flesh but God sees the heart. Yeah.. if anyone saw us right then.. you would not have anything nice to say about her. It as not her heart. But I had this love.. I mean I had the thought..if this is how right now she will be for the rest of our life.. I was so over joyed to love her..to treat her like a queen. This love .. it was NOT based on getting anything.. I didn't want anything from her.

It was to just LOVE her...to do anything everything for her. That is what love your enemy is. We know the verse the word but this love ..its not from us but Him. And as fast as it came it was gone. Something a tiny part is left. Lol.. He will ALWAYS get ALL the glory!

I love her.. oh don't get me wrong.. I am a fully MAN and ..well if your a woman.. you know haha. I can't explain ..there was something... about loving giving and NEVER EVER expecting anything in return and.. I am so sorry.. it was as if that was the reward. It was SO strange.

So you as a man or you as a woman. You have to make the choice here. See He won't do it for you. See it was in my heart but.. this LOVE can only come from Him. Like you go as far as you can.. by faith.. He then steps in.. and WOW.. you think you love your spouse or boyfriend girl friend.. you have not even started.

See its not how what she ever does for me. For over 30 years it was..to HIM I am so sorry for never seeing. Love never thinks of self..ever. Yeah.. we give up everything.. it hurts.. yet.. what HE gives back? HOLY JESUS...all you do is wonder get mad at your self for NEVER doing it sooner. Bless you for sharing
 
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An interesting article on biblical submission. The author raises some important points. —courtesy of True Love Dates

I ended up writing the following blog post, to express some of my concerns regarding the whole “submission culture” that we see in Christian communities, and posed a few important questions for all of us to chew on:

HAVE WE FOCUSED TOO MUCH ON SUBMISSION, AND TOO LITTLE ON LOVE?

As a Licensed Professional Counselor and relationship specialist, the truth of the matter is that I’ve seen this concept of “submission” defined and redefined in so many ways. And sadly, I’ve seen it used to fulfill selfish agendas and aid in manipulation, and at times, even abuse. As a Christian I’ve grown up in conservative circles hearing conversation after conversation about a “submissive wife”, but why is it that we’ve focused so much on submission, yet so little on the idea of establishing a loving marriage? Don’t the two go hand-in-hand?

As I look through Scripture, and even zoom-in on the Ephesians 5 passage where all this content stems, I see so much more about love than submission. In fact, the word “love” is used in some way, shape or form more than TWICE as much as the word submission in the referenced passage. There is a significant umbrella of love that is foundational to this concept, but so many times it gets looked over. We PREACH to the women about submission, yet all-the-while neglecting to TEACH the men about love.

Training a wife to submit to an unloving husband is like training a child to swim without water – it simply misses the mark, because there’s so much more to it than the superficial strokes.

Too many women have been bogged down in unhealthy and dangerous relationships yet answered with the simple concept of “submission”, rather than getting the REAL help they need to tackle and heal the root problems in their marriage. I’m just going to say it: there’s more to a healthy marriage than submission…and that more is found in the unconditional, life-giving, marriage-nourishing LOVE of Christ that has to be both given and received by husband and wife. Maybe it’s time we zoom in on that.

HAVE WE PLACED OUR OWN CULTURAL GENDER ROLES ON A SPIRITUAL CONCEPT?

Another thing I found myself questioning throughout the show was the idea that “submission” meant that a wife learn to be a good homemaker. I can confidently say I don’t see that anywhere in Scripture. Now granted, with reality TV, I am aware that there are limitations to what is portrayed and displayed (a.k.a edited out) on the screen, but one theme that kept shining through this particular show is the idea of creating “a happy husband” through cooking, cleaning, laundry, and sex.

I won’t deny that most men, my husband included, love and appreciate the things their wives do to show them love (often including cooking, cleaning, laundry and sex). And in fact, I LOVE doing those things for my husband!

But isn’t there a difference between acts of service toward our spouse, and the biblical concept of women submitting to their husbands!? Could it be that we have placed our own cultural gender roles on a spiritual concept? In my opinion, the answer is a resounding and absolute: YES!! THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!

I truly believe we’ve done the concept of biblical submission a terrible disservice by lumping it into the category of simply being a good homemaker. Not only so, but I believe that many women, who aren’t necessarily gifted in this way, may feel slighted and even offended by the thought that the reflection of their willingness to submit to their husbands is measured by the cleanliness of their house, the pile of their laundry, or the quality of their cooking. Which leads me to my last thought…

HAVE WE FOCUSED ON SUPERFICIAL ACTIONS WITHOUT TACKLING THE HEART OF THE ISSUE?

I won’t deny that biblical submission is an important topic, but I revolt against the mentality that it’s measured by a certain list of superficial things. I think deep down, at the heart of biblical submission is a woman’s ability and willingness to TRUST her husband in the give-and-take relationship of marriage.

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

As a woman, I know the tendency I have deep in my heart to just “take control” of any and every situation. But part of learning to be a wife was learning to let my will align with the will of my husband’s, as the two of us became one. And in order for me to unite with him, whether it be in lifestyle choices, decision making, intimacy, or parenting-issues, I had to learn to trust him in a way that, up until marriage, I had only done with God.

I had to learn to let go of my control issues, by learning to take into consideration someone else’s will, desires, and wants. This is where trust was SO huge. And it is only because of my love and submission to Jesus, paired with my husband’s love and submission to Jesus, that I was and am able to continually trust in his love and actions toward me.

Just listen to the unbelievable and challenging call to husbands in these next few verses, right after the concept of submission is presented for the first time:

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

What I’m trying to say here is that there is so much more to the concept of women submitting to their husbands in marriage than what we sometimes present in Christian culture.

As we see in the verses above, there is so much mutual respect, mutual love, and even mutual submission that HAS TO EXIST in a relationship in order for this process to truly work. It’s not about the laundry, the dishes, the finances, the sex, or the “last word” on decisions…more than anything, it’s about learning to trust, to respect, and ultimately, to love one another, as Christ has loved us.

And the thing about real love is this: you don’t have to constantly have your own back, when you know that someone else has your back better than you ever could! In the biblical sense of the term submission, you learn to let go, knowing that your husband loves, nurtures, and cares for you just as much as he loves himself and that your desires, opinions, and preferences will be heard! When it comes to women submitting to their husbands, true biblical submission is never one-sided, but in fact, it’s always triangular: Christ pours into us as we pour into one another, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. How beautiful is that?!

Imagine what could happen if we as a culture focused less on the term “submission”, and more on learning to become like Jesus through our actions, our habits, our communication styles, our finances, our sex-lives, and even our emotional intimacy? Imagine what our marriages would look like if we learned to be the closest reflection to Jesus our spouse would ever see?

I don’t know about you, but I’m all for that model of biblical marriage! May the Lord teach us to love, just as we’ve been loved by Him. And may that love impact our relationships, our marriages, our families, and even our world.
Yeah and christian culture establishes a ludicrous sexist "handoff" of the daughter from the father to the husband, where women don't develop ambition, a career, a work ethic, an understanding of money, or independence. Then surprise, when she is unhappy and unfulfilled with a codependent life, she leaves her husband and has to start her life over (but not really over, it's more like starting it for the first time). OR the husband leaves and she's in the same spot. It's really sad. If I had a daughter I would not raise her to ever depend on a man for anything. And I will be raising my sons to seek out wives who know how to live their lives independently of a man (father or spouse).
 
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Peter J Barban

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This issue of a Wife's submission is that when her will differs from her husband's, the wife agrees to follow the husband. It doesn't matter if the conflict is cultural or not.

There is a biblical model of a wife's behavior in Proverbs 31. In this, the wife governs the household well so that the husband can contribute to governing the community.

Of course, in Proverbs, the patriarchal wife is assumed to have many children and servants to do chores while the wife manages them all.
 
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The Liturgist

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The problem is mostly about failing to understand Apostle Paul.

Sadly, even pastors, elders, church authorities totally misunderstood Paul.

Wives DO NOT need to submit to their husbands, period.

MOST Christians have totally NO CLUE about 1 Corinthians 9:19-23. Paul simply took the message by the CULTURE of HIS AUDIENCES.

I am finally coming to realize how dramatic the lengths you have to go to make someone believe who have a different way of thinking (ie, different culture or even suffering from mental or psychological disorder). The latter is the most dramatic.

So it is A BIT of a problem when mainstream Christianity decided to build our theological foundation on Paul's Epistles.

Christianity is really NOT SO "black and white" as the mainstream thinks so. Mainstream Christianity wants to believe it but the facts and TRUTH and hard evidence disproves it. We wouldn't have so many denominations if Christianity has in fact, clearly defined ("black and white") theology.

Here's the really worst part. How we misunderstood The Apostle Paul doesn't just end in marital relations. It goes all the way to the theological foundations of Christianity. Of course, everyone who speaks against it is branded heretic. Indeed, only FEW will find the "narrow gate"

The Pauline Epistles are inspired scripture, and Peter and John wrote messafes so similiar its hard to tell apart. Which is good, because it shows a unity of doctrine existed from the start.
 
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bèlla

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This issue of a Wife's submission is that when her will differs from her husband's, the wife agrees to follow the husband. It doesn't matter if the conflict is cultural or not.

The bible is full of poor decisions from both sexes. The husband doesn’t have a monopoly on wisdom or common sense.

~Bella
 
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Peter J Barban

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The bible is full of poor decisions from both sexes. The husband doesn’t have a monopoly on wisdom or common sense.

~Bella
Granted. But (in the Bible) God has given the husband the human monopoly of family leadership. For better or worse, for richer or poor, until death do them part.

Even when the husband is stupid and wrong, the wife has the responsibility to submit.
 
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Even when the husband is stupid and wrong, the wife has the responsibility to submit.

The simple believes everything, but the prudent gives thought to his steps. —Proverbs 14:15

Biblical mandates are often predicated on other factors. The notion of the spouse being stupid and wrong flies in the face of loving your neighbor.

For the man who loves his neighbor recognizes the limitations of his mental aptitude and seeks its improvement or assistance. He wouldn’t subject his wife to negative consequences to appease his ego.

~Bella
 
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