Shades of Calvinism vs. the Gospel

Mark Quayle

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In my experience in discussing and studying Calvinism: All forms of Calvinism promote the idea that it is ultimately God who saves you and it is in nothing that you did. A person is saved by election or by some kind of regeneration before they exercise faith in the gospel. Many Calvinists believe (from my understanding on Calvinism) is that they consider our free will choice to exercise faith as a work, and thus God needs to save us by His grace and change us. God saves us, and we do not make the choice to be saved (in the world of Calvinism). Some in Calvinism say that “Calvinism is the gospel.”

This is not what I believe the Bible teaches. I believe the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe. The gospel is defined for us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. The gospel is believing that Christ died for us, that He was buried, and He was risen three days later on our behalf for salvation. This is the gospel upon which we are saved. This is how we first get saved is by believing the gospel by faith. We are not saved before this point by the grace of God or by Him zapping us or regenerating us to be saved. We exercise faith in the gospel and then we are saved.
 
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Mark Quayle

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In my experience in discussing and studying Calvinism: All forms of Calvinism promote the idea that it is ultimately God who saves you and it is in nothing that you did. A person is saved by election or by some kind of regeneration before they exercise faith in the gospel. Many Calvinists believe (from my understanding on Calvinism) is that they consider our free will choice to exercise faith as a work, and thus God needs to save us by His grace and change us. God saves us, and we do not make the choice to be saved (in the world of Calvinism). Some in Calvinism say that “Calvinism is the gospel.”

This is not what I believe the Bible teaches. I believe the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe. The gospel is defined for us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. The gospel is believing that Christ died for us, that He was buried, and He was risen three days later on our behalf for salvation. This is the gospel upon which we are saved. This is how we first get saved is by believing the gospel by faith. We are not saved before this point by the grace of God or by Him zapping us or regenerating us to be saved. We exercise faith in the gospel and then we are saved.

I will try to refer here to Reformed Theology, instead of Calvinism, though they should be the same thing. The problem is that "Calvinism" carries a lot of baggage and bias against it that I would rather avoid. I have heard all sorts of things, from "Calvinism teaches that we have no choice" to "Calvinism teaches that we are robots." It does no such thing.

Many, maybe most, people who are not of the Reformed persuasion don't really understand what they have heard, nor even what they have studied concerning Reformed Theology. You say "...Calvinism promote the idea that it is ultimately God who saves you, and it is in nothing that you did." You are a bit vague, there; truth is, pretty much ALL Christianity teaches it is ultimately God who saves, Arminians included. None of them wish to remove credit and glory from God. The problem comes when Reformed Theology wants to remove credit and glory from Man. Common Christendom seems to assume a man's decision is not real if it is in some way caused by God. Reformed Theology insists that a man's decision is not real unless it is caused by God. "Without me you can do nothing."

One of the most common misunderstandings of Reformed Theology has to do with the use of the word "saved". The term should mean either "saved from sin" or "saved from damnation" and usually means both, but Christendom has turned it into a state of being that only regeneration accounts for. Reformed Theology tries to be specific as to exactly what one is talking about: Conversion happens at regeneration, which is by faith, which is the gift of God, not the work of man. Regeneration then, is not a decision --it is the change made by the Spirit that God has placed in you.

Your vagueness also shows here: "...and it is in nothing that you did." --WHAT is in nothing that one does? Salvation? Regeneration? Do you see here how the point of just what is meant by "Salvation" is important here? But what do you mean by "in" nothing that one did? As a result of what one did? Does it mean that what one did (presumably, you mean believing, or maybe even "accepting" Christ (whatever that means --receiving?) according to Calvinism, has no effect upon one's regeneration and forgiveness from sin? Or does it mean that if one is regenerated by God alone, the believing, (repentance etc) is irrelevant and need not even happen? For what it is worth, Reformed Theology teaches that believing, (repentance etc) MUST follow, MUST happen, or the regeneration never happened.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Just strike out everything that Calvinism teaches, that will work.
You mean, like strike out, "To God alone be the glory" and "only by grace through faith"?
 
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Tra Phull

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No, strike out the Double Predestination that some are "doomed from the womb" - a view that the ancient church rejected in the controversy between Augustine and Pelagius; ancient church validated neither's view. A thousand years later, Calvin regurgitated the DOOMED FROM THE WOMB garbage which the ancient church had already rejected. CalvinISM crawled out of the woodwork, burned Servetus alive, hounded Arminius to an early grave, drove his followers out of Holland.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I do have some concerns like I never hear of a Calvinist mentioning John 3:16. But do they preach the gospel? Oh yeah.

I mention it all the time: "For God thus loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that those who believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life."
 
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Mark Quayle

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No, strike out the Double Predestination that some are "doomed from the womb" - a view that the ancient church rejected in the controversy between Augustine and Pelagius; ancient church validated neither's view. A thousand years later, Calvin regurgitated the DOOMED FROM THE WOMB garbage which the ancient church had already rejected. CalvinISM crawled out of the woodwork, burned Servetus alive, hounded Arminius to an early grave, drove his followers out of Holland.
That's not "everything". Get real. Hyperbole much?

Btw, Calvin had nothing to do with much that Calvinism did. For example, he had nothing to do with burning anyone alive. Modern Calvinists do not want the First Amendment repealed. We have no interest in a Church-run state --not until Christ returns as King of Kings.

You might pay a bit of attention to the Calvinist teaching that God is exactly and thoroughly just. He will not demand from an infant payment beyond the debt of the infant. Rest assured, God will be perfectly just.
 
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Tra Phull

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It is my understanding that merciful Johnny Calvin himself recommended that Servetus just have his head cut off, rather than become a HUMAN TORCH, but the Consistory of Beza-bums and Farel overruled Calvin's merciful request for beheading and torched him up while Calvin did not attend.
 
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I’ve never studied Calvinism but I find genuine comfort in the thought that God chose me before I chose him. I say that, remembering the moment I surrendered to divine will, knowing I entered that covenant freely, and I say that remembering thinking “it’s my choice” to leave behind the past life and be baptised, and I still wonder.

Because I spent years (decades?) having part of myself drawn toward Christianity, thinking this, thinking that, but never acting until that choice was put to me and I said yes, and now experience makes me question if it was at that point that I really couldn’t say no.

I’ve sat now, doing things I know I have to do, crying, sobbing, my heart in pain (of this life) but who does that unless something stronger than them is guiding them?

And what’s the other option? That it’s my own free will, my own willpower, my self being the smart one who makes the right choice (as opposed to my self being the stupid one who made the wrong choice the year prior) and that anyone who hasn’t made that choice is just not as smart as me today who is more stupid (hopefully) than me of tomorrow?

I can’t bear some of the dripping vitriol I hear sometimes in people’s voices preaching against those who refuse God because I am trying to reconcile the way I simultaneously feel like it was my choice but yet a choice made in the face of God actually calling me to choose.

If that person hasn’t yet faced that calling, then how could they choose by their own reason what goes beyond reason?
 
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helmut

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I don't like Arminian ideas, 1 screw-up and you've got a one-way ticket to hell.
I can't find this in descriptions of Arminianism, it seems to be a sort of hyper-Arminianism. And of course, this "1 screw-up"-doctrine is unbiblical. It is possible that the heart of a sinner will be hardened by God lest he repents, but in many (most?) cases God gives room for repentance, his grace is without bounds.
 
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helmut

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The problem comes when Reformed Theology wants to remove credit and glory from Man. Common Christendom seems to assume a man's decision is not real if it is in some way caused by God.
Now you are getting vague. I heard from Lutherans sentences like "you cannot decide for Christ out of your own decision, God has to revive you in order ti respond to His call."

The question is whether "remove credit and glory from Man" means that the decision of man is rather just a automatic response to what God has planned beforehand. I see biblical references to people God wants to save (he wants all people to be saved, 1.Tim 2:4) but resist salvation.

It is not your decision that saves you, but it may be your decision that will get you into Hell.

One thing when I looked into Calvin's instruction is: Calvinism is not always the same as Calvinism. And AFAIK there exist "shades" of Calvinism that differ in the degree of precision when speaking about predestination.

Another question is whether the Glory of God will be increased or diminished by a teaching that let God cause a person to decide go to Hell. Obviously, Luther disagreed with Calvin on this point.
 
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Dave L

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In my experience in discussing and studying Calvinism: All forms of Calvinism promote the idea that it is ultimately God who saves you and it is in nothing that you did. A person is saved by election or by some kind of regeneration before they exercise faith in the gospel. Many Calvinists believe (from my understanding on Calvinism) is that they consider our free will choice to exercise faith as a work, and thus God needs to save us by His grace and change us. God saves us, and we do not make the choice to be saved (in the world of Calvinism). Some in Calvinism say that “Calvinism is the gospel.”

This is not what I believe the Bible teaches. I believe the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe. The gospel is defined for us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. The gospel is believing that Christ died for us, that He was buried, and He was risen three days later on our behalf for salvation. This is the gospel upon which we are saved. This is how we first get saved is by believing the gospel by faith. We are not saved before this point by the grace of God or by Him zapping us or regenerating us to be saved. We exercise faith in the gospel and then we are saved.
The problem is, people sporting free will read law into the gospel and turn it into a system of works. Calvinists strip law from the gospel and have only grace.
 
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What does this mean? I can find Arminianism in Wikipedia, but what is "3 point"?

Do you mean that out of the 5 points of Calvinism (TULIP) and the 5 points of Arminianism you chose 3 points each into a 6 point "Arvinism" (or whatever term is the right name for it)? And which three points?

Here are the Original 5 Articles (or Points) of Traditional Arminianism:

  1. Conditional Election.
  2. Unlimited Atonement.
  3. Total Depravity.
  4. Prevenient Grace.
  5. Conditional Preservation of the Saints.

Five Articles of Remonstrance - Wikipedia

I believe in something close to this.

Here are my points (that are similar to Arminianism):

#1. Conditional Election (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).
#2. Conditional Salvation.
#3. Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority; A.K.A. Free Will Involving One’s Choice Towards the Lord, Grace, or Salvation (Note: Christ draws all men unto Himself, and God is not willing that any should perish.) (Note: All men are given an opportunity or opportunities by God to understand the "Offer of the Love of the Truth" so that they are able to receive it, or reject it of their own free will. - See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10.).
#4. Provisional Majority Atonement (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).
#5. Partial Depravity.
Note: My Arminian influenced points on my list above when rearranged spells CCUPP.

The differences in my points are:

(a) I believe in Partial Depravity, and not Total Depravity.

(b) I believe in Conditional Salvation, and not Conditional Preservation of the Saints. I do not believe God forces us against our own will to do what He wants. We need to be faithful (and it is not God who needs to be faithful on our behalf) (Yes, God can protect us, chastise us, etc., but we have to do our part first to make that so) (We are not puppets).

(c) I believe in Majority Atonement and not Unlimited Atonement. I believe that the sacrifice of Christ's atonement is for the majority of the world, and that it is a free will offer for a person to accept as a gift or to reject it of their own choosing, but God has excluded those who worship the beast in the future from the Lamb's book of life (See: Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8) (Note: While I am sure they had a free will choice to accept Christ, they were never going to do that and God knew that fact; They would do something that could never be forgiven).

(d) Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority and not Prevenient Grace. They are similar but not exactly the same. My view takes into account that God desires all men to be saved, and it also takes into account Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8. Prevenient Grace does not also clarify that God may not make multiple attempts to try and save a person, as well.

Then again, do not take my word for what I have stated. Do your own homework with God's Word and check to see whether these things be so or not.
 
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He'll not expand on it...:D, its a personal thing to him and something we should seek that wisdom also. I don't like Arminian ideas, 1 screw-up and you've got a one-way ticket to hell. It's not correct doctrine. I also don't believe in full Calvin doctrine ie- TULIP. it's flawed also.

Learn from it Helmut, grow in grace and be at peace. Grow strong Romans 8:15-17, knowing your more than a overcomer/conqueror Romans 8:35-39

Then why did Jesus say that a person is in danger of having their whole body cast into hell fire if they lust after a woman? (See: Matthew 5:28-30). Why would Paul say that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine of godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing? (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James says God resists the proud and he gives grace to the humble. Why would Paul say work out your salvation with fear and trembling if there is nothing to fear (See: Philippians 2:12). Why would Paul suggest that a person can deny God by their works? (See: Titus 1:16). Why did Ananias and Sapphira die instantly for lying to the Spirit and a great fear came upon the church? (See: Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11). These things do not make sense in light of what you say.

As for your mention of Romans 8:15-17:

Yes. But you have to look at the context. Why would Paul say that if we live after the flesh, we will die, but if we put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit, we will live? (See: Romans 8:13).
This implies we have two choices in life with two different destinies.

Choice #1. - If you live after the flesh (sin), you will die spiritually.

Choice #2. - If you put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) by the power or help of the Holy Spirit, you will live eternally.​

As for your mention of Romans 8:35-39:

Well, in verses 38-39, these are “external things only” that cannot separate a believer from the love of God. It does not mention the “believer himself” or “their sin” cannot separate them from the love of God. We are more than conquerors if we have the right mind set about sin. If we justify sin (thinking we cannot lose salvation when we sin), then we are not going to make it (See: Matthew 7:21 cf. 1 Thessalonians 4:3, Matthew 7:23 cf. Matthew 7:26-27, Matthew 13:41-42, John 12:48), but if we battle and fight against sin for the threat that it is (like with Galatians 5:19-21, 1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8, etc.) then we will have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city (Revelation 22:14-15 KJV <---click on link to see at Biblegateway).
Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life, and FEW be there that finds it. Jesus was of course talking in context to entering His kingdom. Do we have a popular view of “sin and salvation” that adheres to the popular preachers of our day? Or are we simply following the whole counsel of God's Word on that matter (even if we do not like it)?
 
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Good Day, Bible Highlighter

There are some glaring misunderstandings here, and wonder who you were studying.

Yes salvation is a work of God from start to finish. I will go so far as to describe it as a Trinitarian work of God proper.

Faith is a gift the is given by the hand of God to the elect for the sake of Christ.

You can not freely choose to use that which you do not have namely exercise Faith.

God yes Transfers us form the Darkness to light and we are changed, of if you prefer removes our heart of Stone gives us a heart of flesh and puts His Sprint in us. We are effected by that no doubt and we choose Him as a result.

Yes indeed that would be a tag line by The Prince of Preachers:

Calvinism is nothing more than a nick name for the Gospel and as a Baptist I would agree.

In Him,

Bill

Saying that Calvinism is the gospel is not correct (in my view). I believe this is another gospel. Read 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 to get a definition for the real gospel please.
 
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Good Day, Bible highlighter

It is passages like that that make Calvinist the greatest Evangelist the world has ever seen.

I believe that William Carey often quoted that passage.

In Him,

Bill

Well, I think a Calvinist (Director Rich Christiano) makes the best Christian movies today (Because they are films that inspire a person to follow Jesus Christ).

#1. Time Changer:
398456.jpg

You can rent it at Amazon Prime Video:
Amazon.com: Watch Time Changer | Prime Video

#2. Play the Flute:
full

To see the show time dates and if it is playing near your city, check out the bottom page of their website here:
Play The Flute Movie

#3. The Secrets of Jonathan Sperry:
full

You can rent it at Amazon Prime Video:
Amazon.com: Watch The Secrets of Jonathan Sperry | Prime Video

But I am not going to follow what Rich believes in regards to Calvinism. Calvinism is a serious misunderstanding of Scripture (in my opinion).

Note: The director does not appear to push Calvinism in his Christian films. If he did, I would not recommend them.

Anyways, my point here is that just because a person can do good works for Christ and or speak really well and make clever quotes (that can sometimes be true) does not mean anything if they are not in agreement with the Bible entirely. For me: Calvinism is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. You have to distort or change many verses to make it work (Genesis 4:7, Deuteronomy 30:19, 1 John 2:2, 2 Peter 3:9).
 
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Apparently you may have asked the wrong pastors?
Church History


I see Calvinism as bad as believing in the flat Earth theory. It is totally silly in light of reality. The Bible makes it clear that God is love. We know that true love teaches us that love is not forced. For if a man forced his love upon a woman, it would not be true love. Love is a two way street where both parties agree of their own free will to love each other. Women who have been kidnaped can fall in love with their captors. But this is not love. Anyways, I do not have the time really to invest in watching a video on a belief that I strongly disagree with or find ridiculous.

The glaring problem in Calvinism is that God punishes the wicked something beyond their own control and God simply could have flipped the switch to change that and save them like He did with others. This sort of reminds me of a dog owner who kicks his dog across the room because it has an uncontrollable pooping problem. The dog cannot help but to release hot steaming piles of brownie goodness all over his carpets. The dog is sick. But the master does not care. So instead of the master helping the animal to get better, he kicks the poor animal like football because of its sick condition. That does not sound like the God of the Bible to me. It does not sound loving to me, either. God is love according to Scripture. I doubt this guy has resolved this issue in Calvinism.
 
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Calvinism does not exist in the Bible. Romans 9 is the only chapter that sounds kind of Calvinistic, but read in context, it is not talking about individual election of all people in regards to salvation. Romans 9 is criticizing the Jewish way of thinking in trying to be saved by the 613 Laws of Moses, and their rejection of their Messiah (Jesus). God does not have to conform to Jewish ways of thought or thinking. God saves by His method or way. God saves by grace through faith. That is what the chapter is really about.

Good Day, Bible Highlighter

I thought we were taking about Matt 23.

As a side here is a good video that looks at Romans 9, and of course you could read though Pipers work on the chapter.


so back to Matt 23 maybe??

IN Him,

Bill
 
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