is our joy purely vicarious?

Jamdoc

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So pretty much every time that Paul talks about blessings or gifts we may receive or even our joy, it's "in Christ" or "through Christ". Such as Ephesians 1:3, Ephesians 2:6-7.

Does that mean that our joy is to come exclusively from loving Jesus so much that we're overjoyed that everything that is given to Jesus even if we receive nothing ourselves personally? Just vicarious joy, like if your son or daughter has something good happen to them you're just happy for them even if it never happened to you?

I don't know if I can get to that point of selflessness that I don't feel like I'm lacking things am just happy that someone else has it instead even if I'm lacking.
I love others and can be happy for things that are good that happen to others but I still would like blessings for me personally and want things for myself too. Anything good that I have, I would want everyone else to have too, or share what I have, but I also don't want to be excluded from what others have.
 

eleos1954

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So pretty much every time that Paul talks about blessings or gifts we may receive or even our joy, it's "in Christ" or "through Christ". Such as Ephesians 1:3, Ephesians 2:6-7.

Does that mean that our joy is to come exclusively from loving Jesus so much that we're overjoyed that everything that is given to Jesus even if we receive nothing ourselves personally? Just vicarious joy, like if your son or daughter has something good happen to them you're just happy for them even if it never happened to you?

I don't know if I can get to that point of selflessness that I don't feel like I'm lacking things am just happy that someone else has it instead even if I'm lacking.
I love others and can be happy for things that are good that happen to others but I still would like blessings for me personally and want things for myself too. Anything good that I have, I would want everyone else to have too, or share what I have, but I also don't want to be excluded from what others have.

James 1:2-4 ESV / 278 helpful votes
Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Romans 5:3-5
More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

1 Peter 4:13
But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

2 Corinthians 12:10
For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
 
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Jamdoc

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James 1:2-4 ESV / 278 helpful votes
Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Romans 5:3-5
More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

1 Peter 4:13
But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

2 Corinthians 12:10
For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

All of those can be interpreted as "yes" to my question though. That our joy is to be just because Jesus has all things so we're happy for Him/in Him/through Him, even if no blessings are given directly to us they all go to Christ.
 
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eleos1954

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All of those can be interpreted as "yes" to my question though. That our joy is to be just because Jesus has all things so we're happy for Him/in Him/through Him, even if no blessings are given directly to us they all go to Christ.

am pondering the use of the word vicarious with the word joy in your example .... seems to depend on the context ...

the OP title

is our joy purely vicarious
purely (exclusively) ... I would say no.

if related to our relationship with Him then yes ...

if related to eating a ice cream cone then no.

different kinds of joy
 
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Jamdoc

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am pondering the use of the word vicarious with the word joy in your example .... seems to depend on the context ...

the OP title

is our joy purely vicarious
purely (exclusively) ... I would say no.

if related to our relationship with Him then yes ...

if related to eating a ice cream cone then no.

different kinds of joy

In the sense that you want Ice cream, but don't get ice cream, but Jesus is eating ice cream, are you 100% happy and not feeling a desire for ice cream anymore just because Jesus is eating the ice cream even though you have none, because you do have ice cream in Christ or through Christ?

Or, is Jesus eating Ice cream and He hands you a cone too and so you are both enjoying your ice cream together, so neither of you are excluded, and it is an act in fellowship.

A large part of it is the use of the words "in" and "through" rather than "with".
If Paul had said in Ephesians "3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places with Christ:" Rather than in Christ then it would to me be more apparent that we're not excluded, that no good thing is withheld from us. But in Christ means that a good thing can be withheld from us, but not Christ, and our joy is to be vicarious because it was given to Him. In this example, watching Jesus eat an ice cream cone satiates our desire for ice cream.

A silly example I suppose but I hope you get the idea.
 
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grasping the after wind

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In the sense that you want Ice cream, but don't get ice cream, but Jesus is eating ice cream, are you 100% happy and not feeling a desire for ice cream anymore just because Jesus is eating the ice cream even though you have none, because you do have ice cream in Christ or through Christ?

Or, is Jesus eating Ice cream and He hands you a cone too and so you are both enjoying your ice cream together, so neither of you are excluded, and it is an act in fellowship.

Actually Jesus bought the ice cream and gave it to you to eat because he did not need any ice cream he already had some.
 
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eleos1954

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In the sense that you want Ice cream, but don't get ice cream, but Jesus is eating ice cream, are you 100% happy and not feeling a desire for ice cream anymore just because Jesus is eating the ice cream even though you have none, because you do have ice cream in Christ or through Christ?

Or, is Jesus eating Ice cream and He hands you a cone too and so you are both enjoying your ice cream together, so neither of you are excluded, and it is an act in fellowship.

A large part of it is the use of the words "in" and "through" rather than "with".
If Paul had said in Ephesians "3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places with Christ:" Rather than in Christ then it would to me be more apparent that we're not excluded, that no good thing is withheld from us. But in Christ means that a good thing can be withheld from us, but not Christ, and our joy is to be vicarious because it was given to Him. In this example, watching Jesus eat an ice cream cone satiates our desire for ice cream.

A silly example I suppose but I hope you get the idea.

The oldest meaning of "vicarious," which was first recorded in 1637, is "serving in someone or something's stead." The word vicarious derives from the Latin noun vicis, which means "change," "alternation," or "stead."
 
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Jamdoc

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The oldest meaning of "vicarious," which was first recorded in 1637, is "serving in someone or something's stead." The word vicarious derives from the Latin noun vicis, which means "change," "alternation," or "stead."

In this context you are happy because someone is doing something you would like to do or has something you would like to have, in your stead.

Kind of like the parents that live vicariously through their children in some ways. A father who really likes football but was never good enough at it to win a state title and get a college football scholarship may push their son into doing the things that they couldn't do, to experience those triumphs and achievements through their son, even though they themselves, still never accomplished those things.

Our righteousness is definitely vicarious, Jesus lived the perfect life for us, so we experience righteousness through him even though we have none ourselves. Jesus also took our punishment so our punishment is vicarious, He suffered in our stead.

Some people believe our one desire should be, and will be in the resurrection, to see the face of Jesus, and so that would be a purely vicarious joy.
 
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eleos1954

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In this context you are happy because someone is doing something you would like to do or has something you would like to have, in your stead.

Kind of like the parents that live vicariously through their children in some ways. A father who really likes football but was never good enough at it to win a state title and get a college football scholarship may push their son into doing the things that they couldn't do, to experience those triumphs and achievements through their son, even though they themselves, still never accomplished those things.

Our righteousness is definitely vicarious, Jesus lived the perfect life for us, so we experience righteousness through him even though we have none ourselves. Jesus also took our punishment so our punishment is vicarious, He suffered in our stead.

Some people believe our one desire should be, and will be in the resurrection, to see the face of Jesus, and so that would be a purely vicarious joy.

sure .... like I said different kinds of joy
 
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Jamdoc

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so I still don't feel like my question is really answered... is that all of our joy and desires is to just be in Jesus Christ (IE the "all you want to do is see Jesus' face nothing else matters" crowd, the crowd that thinks that the cliff notes biblical description of heaven that makes it sound like a 24/7/365 psalm and hymn sing along while falling on your face before the throne is all you'll want to do for eternity and perfect) or is there some joy that is with Jesus (fellowship, shared blessings and good things), and some joy that is from Jesus, IE Jesus blesses you with things you wanted or maybe even surprises you with something you didn't even know you wanted but there it is and it's wonderful and you're thankful to Him for it.

I mean I'd like to believe that there is joy with and from Jesus, but the biblical language is usually in and through Jesus, which has me have sort of a pessimistic view of eternity, to be perfectly honest.
 
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bling

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So pretty much every time that Paul talks about blessings or gifts we may receive or even our joy, it's "in Christ" or "through Christ". Such as Ephesians 1:3, Ephesians 2:6-7.

Does that mean that our joy is to come exclusively from loving Jesus so much that we're overjoyed that everything that is given to Jesus even if we receive nothing ourselves personally? Just vicarious joy, like if your son or daughter has something good happen to them you're just happy for them even if it never happened to you?

I don't know if I can get to that point of selflessness that I don't feel like I'm lacking things am just happy that someone else has it instead even if I'm lacking.
I love others and can be happy for things that are good that happen to others but I still would like blessings for me personally and want things for myself too. Anything good that I have, I would want everyone else to have too, or share what I have, but I also don't want to be excluded from what others have.
Your just as happy someone won the Lottery, as you would be if you won it, right?
 
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Noxot

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In this context you are happy because someone is doing something you would like to do or has something you would like to have, in your stead.

Kind of like the parents that live vicariously through their children in some ways. A father who really likes football but was never good enough at it to win a state title and get a college football scholarship may push their son into doing the things that they couldn't do, to experience those triumphs and achievements through their son, even though they themselves, still never accomplished those things.

Our righteousness is definitely vicarious, Jesus lived the perfect life for us, so we experience righteousness through him even though we have none ourselves. Jesus also took our punishment so our punishment is vicarious, He suffered in our stead.

Some people believe our one desire should be, and will be in the resurrection, to see the face of Jesus, and so that would be a purely vicarious joy.
Honestly it seems like we should probably not even exist, we are a little bit arbitrary. But Christianity actually puts a lot of worth into the idea of the soul of the individual. We are the one body of Christ, I don't think there is as much separation as many claim that there is. But it's still true that without him we can do nothing, because our very existence is rooted in God.

So the condition of sin is the anti of true being since only God gives life Everlasting. Therefore in this Fallen condition we can't even say that we fully exist and yet we do because he lives, so shall we live. Since our death can be nothing compared to the life of God even our destroyed condition is but a dream which serves God's Eternal purposes. it's a good thing that one of his eternal purposes is Us.
 
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So pretty much every time that Paul talks about blessings or gifts we may receive or even our joy, it's "in Christ" or "through Christ". Such as Ephesians 1:3, Ephesians 2:6-7.

Does that mean that our joy is to come exclusively from loving Jesus so much that we're overjoyed that everything that is given to Jesus even if we receive nothing ourselves personally? ...

I think it rather means that trough Jesus, or because of Jesus we get many nice things that are joy to us. But, I think it is also joy to see others to have nice things.
 
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Jamdoc

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Your just as happy someone won the Lottery, as you would be if you won it, right?
To be honest, is anyone truly? Does someone else winning the lottery take away your desire to win the lottery yourself? (though honestly I don't really care much for material wealth I'm assuming that in this case we're using "winning the lottery" as just being "having something desirable happen to them")

I should say it's not necessarily covetousness to see someone else get something you'd desire and want something like that to happen to you also, covetousness is you wanting to win INSTEAD of them, or to take their winnings. I think it's okay to acknowledge that they won and be happy for them that they won, but also still desire to win yourself someday. If someone gets a new car that you like doesn't mean you have to stop wanting a car like that yourself, as long as you don't want theirs.
 
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bling

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To be honest, is anyone truly? Does someone else winning the lottery take away your desire to win the lottery yourself? (though honestly I don't really care much for material wealth I'm assuming that in this case we're using "winning the lottery" as just being "having something desirable happen to them")
The more you have the more you have to be Stewart of.
 
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Jamdoc

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The more you have the more you have to be Stewart of.
The more things that God blesses you with, the more things to be thankful to Him for, the more you glorify Him.

It works a little in the same way as the parable of the 2 debtors, as long as you know who is responsible for all the good things you're blessed with, then you love the source of those blessings more the more blessings you get, just as if you know the source of the forgiveness of sin, the more sins you are forgiven the more you love who forgave you. If you believe yourself self righteous and are not blessed with much, are you going to love and glorify the Lord much?
 
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